SA Family on Gold Coast

[Guest Mauritz]

I thought this forum was about sharing experiences. We have also experienced a lot of what NT is going through, the only difference is that he wrote about it on the forum.

Don't get me wrong - you CAN also write about your experiences. My only advise is, don't start with: "Welcome to Australia 'the land of the lie'" As far as I'm concerned - nobody, not even the Australian Government told any lies regarding the migration process. In 12 years, I've never come across that one. Many, many South Africans, other migrants and Austalians are more than successful in this country.

It is incredibly hard to start a business in Australia. I am willing to bet that almost 100% of the critics on this thread are in salaried jobs, and haven't a clue of how hugely expensive and difficult it is to get going here in business.

Maybe these critics were smart right from the start. I wasn't - I immediately started a business without any experience. Just maybe it might be a good idea to find a 'salaried job' on the sideline. I can introduce you to many Aussie in my area that is doing exactly just that. Starting up a business and working a second and sometimes a third job to keep going. There was a stage where I had to to it. There are also business people on this form - but business is a personal things - its nobody's business. There are no magic formulas or potions that'll make it work. If there was - every second ape and his mate would've been in business.

Our business visa was granted on this basis: "You can come here with a minimum of a few hundred thousand Rand, but you do not qualify for benefits or Medicare. You will pay full price for childcare, and you will pay almost $400 per month for Private medical aid. You are liable for maximum taxes on any funds earned (even in SA), you may live here for only 4 years. If you do not somehow support your family (let's say you will need R400k per year after tax), or you do not start a profitable business and employ Australians, you will be asked to leave at the end of 4 years. If you want to buy property you must first get our permission, and you may not rent it out. You must advise us of your whereabouts at all times. When we ask you to leave you will be required to sell your house."

I assume that you and all the other business visa holders were well aware of the conditions - don't think it can be called a lie.

I have a big problem with the rose-coloured glasses attitde, it's not fair or realistic. People should tell it like it is!

I don't have a problem with that attitude - because anyone can have a rosy future in this country - that is the part I love most. That is, YOU can do it - YOU are in control - nobody else.

I am surprised how hard everyone has been on NT. I thought this forum was about sharing experiences.

I agree with you There was a time I dared to share my viewpoint and experiences about the future of Azania - which is not a lie but hardcore truth, backed up by 1000's of other HISTORICAL examples in dear o'll Africa and also by the personal experiences of many people on this forum. I was jumped upon by a minority - called a racist & many other things etc. I even managed to get someone to call themselves 'a fat cow.' Believe me it sometimes happens on this forum

I know it has been done before, but why don't we all get into the NEGATIVES about the Land of Oz - that includes the business side of things. The purpose: to try and get an understanding of common 'negatives' and then gathering input/experiences of how to overcome them. I'll start it if needed.

Just my opinion - I don't really see the point - because the majority of negatives came from my own doing - my own set views about things. When things don't work for you here, while it was working perfectly in Africa - of course one gets upset. First instinct is to point the finger at Australia and it's people - I mean, how can YOU be wrong - it worked perfectly somewhere else????

Believe me - business wise - THIS IS NOT HOW THINGS WORK. Every country, and within countries - each different area has got specific ways things are done. You can only adapt by changing the way you do things. If it is not going to work - find another job. Small business statistics in Australia show clearly that it takes about 5-6 years to get somewhere in small business - that is if things go well. It also shows that 75% plus WILL fail, most of the time within the very first year. These are hardcore facts - not lies.

PS. I might be wrong but NT is in the fortunate position to have PR (like I was). So ..... to sleep less and get that extra night and weekend job is in perfect order.

[Ajay]

I've stayed out of this discussion so far, but might as well throw in my 2c worth, seeing as everyone else is

Fundamentally, I don't have a problem with NJT posting a note about his disillusionment and frustration at how things are panning out for him here. That is exactly what we are here for, right? To listen and to offer support and maybe even come up with a suggestion or two. I also don't have a problem with people agreeing with NJT's point of view, and for expressing the fact that they have thusfar been uncomfortable about posting anything negative for fear of being pounced on. Immigration is an emotional issue and we all (self included ) have a tendancy to react and respond defensively when we are challenged on it.

However, what I have a rather huge problem with is being called a liar. NJT has repeatedly accused everyone on this forum of lying and not admitting that we've all had it as bad as he has and just won't admit it. Well, excuse me, but last time I checked, the only person that knows how I experienced my move across here is myself.

Believe it or not, NJT, but there are some of us that were lucky enough to not experience any hardship whatsoever. I packed up, got on a plane, unpacked and have never looked back, except to remind myself how far I've come). I've never had a doubt or a glimmer of regret. I love my new life, I love this country and I love the opportunities that I've had since arriving.

Now, you've had a different, and very unfortunate, immigration experience. I really feel for you and I can only imagine how hard it must be to go from running a successful business to struggling to make ends meet this side. I ran my own business in SA as well, but have moved back into salaried employment here, and even that move took some adjusting, so it must be hard on you.

But maybe what you need to focus on is the fact that there are many of us out there that have succeeded, some against extreme odds, instead of telling yourself that we're really all miserable and have actually been lying in some massive conspiracy to entice unsuspecting souls here just so that we can watch them falter. Surely you could take better comfort in knowing that so many of us have experienced success instead of the comfort that you get from telling yourself that we are all lying!

Incidentally, I also take offence to the title - Land of the Lie indeed! I watched the SA Tourism ad at the movies the other day, and if ever there was a poster child for the Land of the Lie, I would hazard a guess as to who that might be.

I hope that your fortunes change soon, and I hope that you take some of my message to heart, and I look forward to hearing about your successes here soon.

Cheers

Ajay

[Bob]

I am surprised how hard everyone has been on NT. I thought this forum was about sharing experiences. We have also experienced a lot of what NT is going through, the only difference is that he wrote about it on the forum. I agree with a lot of his points. I have been watching the thread but just haven't had the time or energy to respond the way I would like to.

I think it's really surprising that people are so critical of his viewpoint. This seems to be a symptom of feeling threatened.

It is incredibly hard to start a business in Australia. I am willing to bet that almost 100% of the critics on this thread are in salaried jobs, and haven't a clue of how hugely expensive and difficult it is to get going here in business.

Our business visa was granted on this basis: "You can come here with a minimum of a few hundred thousand Rand, but you do not qualify for benefits or Medicare. You will pay full price for childcare, and you will pay almost $400 per month for Private medical aid. You are liable for maximum taxes on any funds earned (even in SA), you may live here for only 4 years. If you do not somehow support your family (let's say you will need R400k per year after tax), or you do not start a profitable business and employ Australians, you will be asked to leave at the end of 4 years. If you want to buy property you must first get our permission, and you may not rent it out. You must advise us of your whereabouts at all times. When we ask you to leave you will be required to sell your house."

Sometimes this is a bitter pill to swallow. No-one is asking for favours, but this is a very one-sided contract.

I have a big problem with the rose-coloured glasses attitde, it's not fair or realistic. People should tell it like it is!

When you were told that you were only coming to Australia for four years, they weren't lying to you, Bron.

You were being told the way it is.

Nobody told you that you could get Medicare or any benefits whilst on a temp visa . . . . no lies there!

No one said you could buy property without going thro the Foreign Investment Review Board scrutiny first.

No one said you'd have half a dozen old mates and family members waiting to welcome you at the airport. . . . no lies there!

Life is tough.

Emigrating is tough.

You still have to get up in the morning, drag yourselves off to work and earn a quid, no matter where you end up in life.

Coming to Australia and expect the red carpet to be rolled out on landing here is so unrealistic.

You still have to hunt around for a job.

You may have to take a lower paid job at first till that dream job comes along.

You will be lonely for the first year or two till you make a network of mates and it grows.

Your spouse will cry on your shoulder and your kids will be afraid on going to a new school the first time.

Life is tough and it sucks at times having Christmas dinner the first year here with no family around.

No lies. No bullshit.

This is how it is for the vast majority of South Africans rocking up on Australian shores each year.

There are always those who don't think too much of Australia.

That is fair enough.

Australian doesn't pretend to be all things to all people.

If you don't like the joint, that's O.K.

People come to Australia and others leave Australia all the time.

It's nothing new to Australia or to Australians for people to come and go.

If Australia isn't your "cup of tea" for whatever reasons, do something about it!

. . . but when I hear newcomers to Australia not doing anything about their situation other than run Australia down, I wonder why they aren't dealing with their problems in the right way.

Queenslanders are a breed unto themselves as well.

Anyone living up in Banana country will find that out soon enough.

It goes back a long way in time, but Queenslanders felt hard done by by the bigger States of New South Wales and Victoria in the early days of Australian federation.

Some Queenslanders still feel resentment to "southerners" for taking their jobs and filling up their part of Australia and making it less slow and relaxed than years gone by.

I worked in Brisbane for a short while in 1973 and "felt" the welcome, but when Queenslanders get to know you and figure you out, they'll come around if you're a good bloke and can fit in.

I lived many years in a similar part of Australia . . . . Tasmania.

They have a similar attitude to newcomers as Queenslanders.

It was tough not knowing anyone there, but now we go back and are welcomed into the homes of old mates we made there.

As far as the old Tasmanians, we are "locals" and can go back any time and be treated as such.

They got to know us and found out that we could fit in, raise a family there and do a day's honest work.

Attitude.

[Guest Bronwyn]

Hi there

I didn't say anything was a lie. It is all very well documented on DIMIA's website what is expected of you in terms of a business Visa. It is in black and white. There are certainly no red carpets promised, and none expected.

BTW on a Temp Business visa you would be very ill-advised to get a job and start your business part-time. It is very unlikely you will be able to comply with the business turnover requirements in time to supply the required 2 years' turnover financials before the end of your 4 year visa. You will land up being kicked out of Australia very smartly. The only realistic way of doing it (that I can see) is if you have a large sum of money with which to BUY a business, that generates enough revenue to support a family. We are probably talking at least R2-R3 million. The only other way is if you have enough funds to support yourselves for at least 2 years without any Dollar income, while you get a smaller business going

[Helena G]

Hi everyone,

Sjoe net weer 'n bevestiging dat immigrasie nie vir sissies is nie! Good Luck vir almal van julle vir 2008 ek hoop almal se drome word waar en dat al julle "issues / probleme" sal verdwyn.

Ek wil so graag saampraat maar ons het eventually op Canada besluit! kannie waggie

[Julie K]

Holy crap people. Relax, Ninjaturtle is just venting some of his frustrations and what he is experiencing is totally normal. I applaud him for coming forward and talking about it as it is not easy, I have been there before myself. This is why some people don't air their feelings when they are down, as they get bombarded by other members if they do post somethign to this effect.

There are different phases in immigrating and I suggest some of you read up on it and realise that noboby is the same but most people go through it. Have a read through this thread http://www.saaustralia.org/index.php?showtopic=48&hl=

This forum is about giving balanced views on immigrating. It is not rosy all the time and that reflects in his post.

Ninja Turtle, just to keep yourself sane. Things will definitely seem more expensive than in SA, but remember here you are earning dollars and paying in dollars. You get more for your dollar in Australia than you would ever get for it in South Africa for a Rand. Also just think of the bigger picture.

Cheers & Good Luck!

Thank you Deidrei. I agree with you. People should be able to air their feelings and personal opinions honestly without other people getting all defensive. Everyone has their own perceptions and experiences and should be respected for them.

JulieK

[Guest Bronwyn]

A little story if I may - We just got back from the Adelaide airport after dropping our friends off after visiting us for 3 weeks. They had a fantastic time in Australia, and are now on a plane heading back. Last night we all sat around with a glass of Barossa's finest, debating the way forward & life in general. They are not interested in emmigration, by the way, they just came to see us and some of Australia.

Standing in the Air Malaysia queue 2 hours ago, who should stand behind us but a man and his +-18 year old son. They heard our Afrikaans friends speaking, and, sure enough, they are also Afrikaans. They have been here for 5 and a half years and happen to know quite a few of the same people we do. As the queue inched slowly forward and the 6 kids jumped around us like maniacs for over an hour, we chatted to these 2 guys. Their whole family is packing and moving back to South Africa on 27 January, after all this time here. They are going back to the Cape. The dad told us he found it impossible to make any real money in South Australia on a business Visa, even though he had 3 businesses in South Africa before, and he has a professional qualification. I think they must have been somewhat successful, as they are now Citizens. I didn't want to ask what business he had, because he didn't volunteer the information.

It wasn't really what I needed to hear today, but I thought it was ironic to hear this today, of all days, as we see some of our closest friends off.

I would not like to be forced to return to South Africa. The guy just seemed tired, and he said it has cost him a lot of money being here, but he has got his kids through school, and his Citizenship, and that is all he wanted.

I know of 2 other South African families running businesses in town that are not breaking even, and two others that sold their businesses as soon as they got PR.

So I suppose I am just seeing the glass half full today, but the fact of the matter is that it is very hard, make no mistake, and a lot of people do not succeed.

Of course attitude is everything, but a bit of knowledge & research goes a long way too...

Edited January 5, 2008 by Bronwyn

[Jill]

Hi Bronwyn,

Chin up, I know how you feel, my son is leaving SA in a few hours to come out here, I have had butterflies all day today thinking about him and reliving our trip out here, I feel as if it is me flying today.

I think just seeing your friends off is tough.

So Vasbyt and over the next couple of days as you get used to your friends not being there, you will feel settled again.

bye for now, Jill

[Bob]

It is tough emigrating.

You go thro the "honeymoon" stage where everything is new and sparkly . . . . like being in love at first . . . when everything is perfect.

Then the cold light of day begins to dawn in people's lives as the novelty wears off and the routine of surviving from day to day is "in your face"

Business migrants do it particularly tough.

They have to jump thro all kinds of hoops to cater for the employment of two Australians down the track in order to qualify for PR.

Any business has enough on its plate to establish itself without hoops and hurdles to jump thro also.

It takes 5 years sometimes to start to earn some serious money for all your trouble.

However, this website does elaborate on these shortcomings from time to time and life is no picnic for the vast majority of South Africans relocating to Australia.

I take my hat off to them because most Australians wouldn't want the lifestyle they have been prepared to put themselves thro in order to qualify for PR and eventually get an Australian passport so they can come and go as they please without any restriction.

One thing in particular that is different between Australia and South Africa is the total absence of a big pool of dirt cheap labour that's available in Sth Africa.

This historically has reflected in many Australian products being dearer for the simple fact that Australian wages were factored in to the final price paid.

Australians could have imported cheap coolies from Asia by the boatload in the past to do all the menial low paid tasks but always felt that was a bad plan in the long run for Australians.

Australians have had to do all the low paid jobs and labouring work themselves, somewhat different to what South Africans are used to seeing.

So . . . when you compare prices for certain products are you taking all these aspects into consideration??

The minimum wage in Australia would have to be 15x higher than the equivalent Sth African one.

Another factor to mention is that there is next to no domestic workers in Australia.

You make a mess, you clean it up yourself.

I am the vacuum cleaner and mopper in my house, also car fixer and lawn mowerer, project builder (gazebos, pergolas, etc.)

So . . . I'm "George" "Sunday" or whatever else the boys and girls back home get called!

Loads of newcomers find that a helluva culture shock . . . . having to fill up their own car themselves!

I get amused by tales of "What do I do next??"

It'd be so much easier is every South African came and stayed with an Australian family for the first six months, to learn the ropes on everything like what shopping to do, how to fill up your car, what elections are like, what beaches are safest to swim in, how to get buses and tickets for them, etc.

It's pretty much like what Annette has said. You can research and glean info up to a point, but eventually you have to do some discovery for yourselves and everyone seems to discover different aspects of Australian lifestyle at their own unique times.

[Dax]

I hear what you say, Bob.

It is the same with teaching. I can write humongous article upon article, but nothing beats practical experience at the chalk face.

To be quite honest, I simply cannot see a teacher ending service in RSA on 31 December, and walking into an Aussie classroom a fortnight later.

You really NEED a type of induction period, or, like in my case 12 years ago; holding on by the seat of my pants for dear life in a STEEP learning curve.

The thing is, IMHO, getting your head around teaching in South Australia is not that hard, but one NEED to have an open mind and NEVER compares apples with oranges. The kids and their antics is only one factor, the curriculum and its expectations and cultural make-up is different.

If you get into the job with an open mind and a determination to succeed, you will make it.

Over the years I’ve find that if you want to come through as a teacher, then two things are important;

* If you find yourself between a rock and a hard place, ask for help. (If you want to see mateship at work, check how Aussie teachers support each other, especially newbies.)

* Always do your level best. Run your ideas and problems past your colleagues, ask questions, but demonstrate that at least you are trying to bring your part of the bacon home. Aussie teachers value team players and nobody admires a shirker or a passenger.

I’ve done it in the past and I’m doing it again – I invite any teacher who is still new and/or unsure in the South Oz system to come into my classroom as a observer, just to get your head around the system and also for me and other teachers can support you in practical, hands-on ways. In short, observe a few “old hands” at work, try your hand at it yourself and chances are you will slot into things after let's say a week of observing and trying out.

You will need to be registered as a South Australian Teacher, though.

Just my 2c worth,

Dax

Edited January 5, 2008 by Dax

[Navigator]

Thanks for your input Bob. Some of the reasons above for why South Africans might not enjoy Australia, are some of the reasons why I think I will enjoy Australia.

I grew up in a family where we don't use cheap labour to help us. We clean our own home. mow our own lawn, and if it was allowed, I would fill my own car. These things frustrate me immensely in South Africa, where there's even "car guards" guiding you to reverse out of a parking space.

I like being independent, and so does my wife.

[Mara]

With all the SA's that we have come into contact with over the last ten years, I must admit, the ones that have done it the toughest in my opinion, are the the ones that came across on business visas.

Doing business in Aus is definitely not the same as doing business in SA, dealing with customers is different, dealing with the public is different, dealing with suppliers is different, and oh my goodness, dealing with the banks can be a real pain in the butt!

So to those people that are thinking of coming over on business visas, I take my hat off to you, and please, if an Aussie gives you advise, heed it, who knows, it may be just the advice you need to save your business!

If it is at all possible, try and work for a boss for six months, before you start your business, you will be amazed at how much that will help you!

[Annette]

As Bronwyn said knowledge and research can be everything. As it was when any of you started your businessess.. as it is in any part of the world. A lot of us are helped in our transition by working and meeting people that way, who can show us the ropes, correct us when we stumble (I was told in no uncertain terms by my head of dept. a few weeks ago, that "here in Australia we fetch the mail, not the post!" , and generally fill us in on the 30 - 40-odd years we have to catch up on. Those who start their own businesses have no such colleagues to make the move smoother for them (that's if we open ourselves up to their 'asssistance' in the first place). It's a steep enough learning curve as it is, man it must be almost vertical for you guys!

The thing to bear in mind, I think, is the same for all of us to some extent: lower your expectations, expect that things will go badly, and deal with it with humour and a positive spirit! Think back to how it was when all of you started your very first businesses - did things skyrocket into success for you immediately, did you move into your lovely mansion immediately, and bought that X5 the very next month? No, I very much doubt it. It probably took years and many stumbles on the way to get somewhere. Generally I keep hearing over and over again that it takes around 3 - 5 years for a business to turn a profit and many more until anyone is making enough for the luxuries in life. Remember that you are starting on ground level again, not halfway up the ladder, and that it is a very very long way to the top . Think back to that first year or two and try to forget about all the comforts and luxuries, business knowledge and cash that you have got used to. It's back to square one. Problem is, most of us aren't so young, impulsive and foolish anymore and we don't like to take the risks anymore. Not only that, but we have a tendency at this "advanced" age to think we now know enough and can start telling others how to do things, so in some ways we are not really very suited to the very beginnings of a small business anymore. Really, we don't actually really fit the profile anymore. The only thing we have to go on is our track record and that counts for absolutely nada over here

Another thing I think might be a problem particularly in the case of South Africans may be the fact that a lot of small business owners over here are just your average Joe battler. Not like in SA where mostly owning your own business means that you enter the big league, don't mix with the rabble anymore and tend to live a very comfortable to downright extravagant lifestyle. Yes, like Bob says, cheap labour does help a lot and that's not available here. So, it must be tough finding that suddenly you have to do everything yourself, work probably 24-7 and then end up living among the rest of us plebs, driving a pretty average car and having to save frantically for that one holiday every two years or so. For instance, our street is littered with business owners. There's Joe next door, who has a flooring business. You wouldn't be able to tell his house apart from your average government issue "staatsdorp" offering in South Africa. His garden is a mess and he drives a 20 year old Land rover. Yet his business has very successful. Why? Because he has been able to put food on his family's table for over 30 years. His mortgage is paid in full now and he has been able to put in a lovely water feature for his wife. That makes him very happy. He has no other needs in life and now he can afford to pack the landrover every few months and go bush for a few weeks at a time, because he has saved enough.

Get it? A MAJOR mindshift is needed. Business people here work VERY hard and expect to be able to feed and clothe their family and pay their mortgage, maybe even buy a little beach shack eventually. Just like the rest of us... Business people are not automatically rich people like they are in South Africa, so I have to smile at the South African's comment at the airport that it is hard to make "real money" here. OF COURSE it is hard! It is hard everywhere. Why expect it to be easy? Why not leave that old attitude of the only successful business is one where the owner can exhibit the trappings of "real money" at Tambo airport (or whatever it is now!)? If those people are going back to a place where they will be prisoners in their own home and car, where there is a good likelihood that one of them will be robbed, raped or murdered, where their children have virtually no future, where they can only call themselves a success if they have made lots of money by exploiting cheap labour, then they REALLY have lost all perspective in life!

A few practical ideas:

Volunteer, volunteer, volunteer! Anywhere! Even for an hour a week or something. It not only gives you a feeling for your potential customers, it is also a useful way to meet people who may be able to open doors for you. Learn from the people you meet there - DON'T keep on thinking "oh my word, WHAT are these people on??" Those are your future clients / supporters / business partners?

Listen to what people say. Try to get a feel for how the mind of the average Aussie works. Really listen and take heed - don't think "that's what you say but wait till I show you how things should REALLY be done!"

Read, Read, Read. Read everything you can get your hands on - magazines, newspapers (stay OFF News24!!), books etc. Join the library and make sure that your local librarian knows you are new to the country and want to find out all there is to know. You have a LOT of catching up to do. If you don't know the history of a place, what shaped its people, what affects them, you cannot understand a place and you won't be able to "talk shop" in a way that makes sense to anyone here.

Watch local television. Ignore the American rubbish on Foxtel and start learning what people are really like here! And yes, those annoying "shouting" adverts do work in the local market, or they wouldn't be so prevalent and if you want to make a success too, you may have to be the next annoying face that points at our screens and shouts in our faces that "Tomorra is market day!!"

Watch the attitude. Being realistic does not equate to being negative and seeing a mountain where there is a molehill all the time. A person can wear coloured glasses just as much as they can wear rose coloured ones, and they do way more damage! Nowhere in history has a negative or even "realistic" attitude ever been touted as the secret to success. All religions, all self-help books, all inspirational speakers, all gurus, every single bit of instruction on finding success, happiness, money, focuses on thinking POSITIVELY. Yes, even The Secret! The power of positive thinking has never been seen as a negative thing, ever. Man, it has even been scientifically proven that people who have a positive attitude (and in this case, often EXTREMELY unrealistic view of reality) survive terminal illnesses longer than those who don't...

Good luck, we all know it's not easy and not a single person has ever said it is. Hang in there and ask for help, that's what we're all here for!

Edited January 7, 2008 by Annette

[Guest Bronwyn]

Annette you gave me a lekker laugh now!!! I have never heard of -coloured glasses as opposed to the lovely rose-coloured ones! LOL!

Your post makes a lot of sense.

Bron

PS. Where is NT in all this?

To NT: I checked out your website and it seems like you have already accomplished a huge amount in a very short space of time. Don't get discouraged, it seems like you are going about your business the right way, putting in a lot of effort. It will just take a little longer than you thought.

Edited January 6, 2008 by Bronwyn

[Guest Ninja Turtle]

A little story if I may - We just got back from the Adelaide airport after dropping our friends off after visiting us for 3 weeks. They had a fantastic time in Australia, and are now on a plane heading back. Last night we all sat around with a glass of Barossa's finest, debating the way forward & life in general. They are not interested in emmigration, by the way, they just came to see us and some of Australia.

Standing in the Air Malaysia queue 2 hours ago, who should stand behind us but a man and his +-18 year old son. They heard our Afrikaans friends speaking, and, sure enough, they are also Afrikaans. They have been here for 5 and a half years and happen to know quite a few of the same people we do. As the queue inched slowly forward and the 6 kids jumped around us like maniacs for over an hour, we chatted to these 2 guys. Their whole family is packing and moving back to South Africa on 27 January, after all this time here. They are going back to the Cape. The dad told us he found it impossible to make any real money in South Australia on a business Visa, even though he had 3 businesses in South Africa before, and he has a professional qualification. I think they must have been somewhat successful, as they are now Citizens. I didn't want to ask what business he had, because he didn't volunteer the information.

It wasn't really what I needed to hear today, but I thought it was ironic to hear this today, of all days, as we see some of our closest friends off.

I would not like to be forced to return to South Africa. The guy just seemed tired, and he said it has cost him a lot of money being here, but he has got his kids through school, and his Citizenship, and that is all he wanted.

I know of 2 other South African families running businesses in town that are not breaking even, and two others that sold their businesses as soon as they got PR.

So I suppose I am just seeing the glass half full today, but the fact of the matter is that it is very hard, make no mistake, and a lot of people do not succeed.

Of course attitude is everything, but a bit of knowledge & research goes a long way too...

Thanks Bronwyn,

Although I would not wish misfortune on anyone, I am glad it's not just me who is having a tough time in OZ, as some people on this forum would like to believe.

[Guest Ninja Turtle]

To NT: I checked out your website and it seems like you have already accomplished a huge amount in a very short space of time. Don't get discouraged, it seems like you are going about your business the right way, putting in a lot of effort. It will just take a little longer than you thought.

Hi Bronwyn,

Thanks for the positive feedback regarding our OZ web site. You can check out our SA website too at http://www.unisoft.co.za, to get an idea of what we are doing in SA.

I am a very active person, hence our achievements so far. I think that what is happening for me now is kind of surreal, as I have followed the same procedure as I did back in 1996 when we started Unisoft, but with totally different results.

However back then it was kind of the start of the IT boom (but we did not know it at the time), so it was probably an ideal time to start an IT business. We never looked back, and as a matter of interest we never had to make use of cheap labour to make a good living. Cheap labour is not really an option in the software development industry. Unisoft also started out with nothing, we developed all our products from scratch, and that took years, but we still made a success of it.

So the fact is that we don't even have to develop any products here in OZ, as we already have them, and we have distribution rights for US products that we have now also aquired for the Australian territory, so actually all we have to do is find clients now, and after 10 months... not one paying customer! How can that be? Just like every house has someone living in it (even if you might not want it, somebody else does), I believe that there are customers for all the different software products on the market, you just have to find them.

I am just surprised to say the least, that its been so difficult, and also the crazy reasons these people have for not wanting the products (like the fact that its not 'made in Australia'.

Regards

NT

[Guest Ninja Turtle]

NJ, where on earth did you come from? Didn't your mother teach you a thing or two about manners? How rude! Dax was trying to help and see things from your point of view. Your attitude is completely off to those who are actually attempting to sympathize with your whinging!

Hey Gizmo, I am not a candidate for Dale Carnegie, OK? I came from SA, can't you read? I call a spade a spade, not a 'dirt removal and relocation device'. OK, get it! If you don't like my direct approach then go and read another post on another forum, or another web site for all I care.

Please don't get into my character as my response will not provide for easy or productive reading.

The business world is not about pussy footing around, leaving people to make thier own minds up about what you were trying to say, its about making yourself, and your intentions perfectly clear, so that there can be no confusion about your expections or point of view.

So if you want candy coated posts, you have come to the wrong place

Sorry for you boet.

[Dax]

NT,

I can empathise much with your position, with employment I was in quite the same boat for my first 6 months in Oz.

I’m not an expert in your field, but if re-branding your products, if only to make it “seem” that your products were developed over here, will give you a foot in the door, wouldn’t it be an option?

The way I see it, and what I’m keeping my fingers crossed for on your behalf, is that you have a big sale to a rather large business soon.

The reason being that a lot of business/marketing dynamics here in Oz pans out by word-of-mouth. I mean you really may need only ONE satisfied customer to spread the word about you to set your ball rolling. You do seem to have the knowledge, drive and motivation and ONE break should see you on your way

That is just my reasoning only, I may be wrong, but I really hope that things will work out for you soon.

Dax

Edited January 7, 2008 by Dax

[Andre S]

Since we are obviously all schmucks on this forum, here are some wise words from a great man. Maybe he will be able to convince you of some things:

"It is not enough that we do our best, sometimes we have to do what's required."

"However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results."

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened."

"Never, never, never believe any war will be smooth and easy, or that anyone who embarks on the strange voyage can measure the tides and huyrricanes he will encounter. The statesman who yields to war fever must realize that once the signal is given, he is no longer the master of policy but the slave of unforceeable and uncontrollable events."

"Personally I'm always ready to learn, although I do not always like being taught."

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm."

And one for me in this case: "He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire."

These great truths are all, yes, you guessed it, by Sir Winston Churchill.

André S

[Guest mrs mupersan]

Hey Gizmo, I am not a candidate for Dale Carnegie, OK? I came from SA, can't you read? I call a spade a spade, not a 'dirt removal and relocation device'. OK, get it! If you don't like my direct approach then go and read another post on another forum, or another web site for all I care.

Please don't get into my character as my response will not provide for easy or productive reading.

The business world is not about pussy footing around, leaving people to make thier own minds up about what you were trying to say, its about making yourself, and your intentions perfectly clear, so that there can be no confusion about your expections or point of view.

So if you want candy coated posts, you have come to the wrong place

Sorry for you boet.

NJ, you should probably read your own post here "boet". It should give you a bloody good clue as to why you and your "direct approach" are not making any sales or winning any contracts in Australia!!! Maybe you should try being less of a hard-arse South African and try being a bit more of a motivated, open-minded fledgling Australian....

There are so many people on this forum who are trying to help you and giving you some damn good advice. Unfortunately you seem to compliment those who offer the advice you like, ignore the stuff you don't & criticize the people who provide constructive criticism.

Even if you're too stubborn & stuck in your ways to heed any of this fabulous advice, at least there is a wealth of information sitting right here in this topic for the rest of us to learn from. Scott & I are also wanting to eventually open our own business in Australia (after owning & running our own here in SA for years). However, we are more than happy to go over on an employer sponsored visa so that we can learn from others in the industry, meet people and gain some experience of the Australian market before taking the giant leap on our own.

And just for the record, I'd far rather read Gizmo's contributions on this forum than yours. So, to throw your own post right back at you, "go and read another post on another forum, or another web site for all I care".

[Gizmo]

Hey Gizmo, I am not a candidate for Dale Carnegie, OK? I came from SA, can't you read? I call a spade a spade, not a 'dirt removal and relocation device'. OK, get it! If you don't like my direct approach then go and read another post on another forum, or another web site for all I care.

Please don't get into my character as my response will not provide for easy or productive reading.

The business world is not about pussy footing around, leaving people to make thier own minds up about what you were trying to say, its about making yourself, and your intentions perfectly clear, so that there can be no confusion about your expections or point of view.

So if you want candy coated posts, you have come to the wrong place

Sorry for you boet.

Not very good at specifics are you... or was the question a bit too difficult? Basically I am beginning to see one of the huge problems with your business skills - you are seriously lacking in the PR department!

I can see I am going to have to type the following yet again... We all want to hear the bad parts of Aus -- obviously it prepares those of us who are still to make the move, BUT your original post is not particularly constructive or helpful. Why don't you try going back and re-reading the whole of my previous post and try to answer the questions if you are really trying to be so "helpful" to those going over on a business visa (I have my doubts - personally I think you are just feeling like a bit of a fool now and are trying to excuse your behaviour).

If you actually manage to swallow your pride for five seconds, maybe we can help or offer some advice if you give us some more specifics.

Run along now.

[Navigator]

I agree with Mrs Mupersan and Gizmo above.

I find this "supposedly helpful" person's attitude extremely irritating. Like I said before, I now know exactly what kind of attitude to avoid in Australia if I want to achieve even a small amount of success. I hope you're not as abrasive with your prospective clients as you are here on the forum where you are so generously handing out your help.

Edited January 7, 2008 by RenierPret

[adeleb]

Isn't Gizmo a girl??!! Making it "Sista" not "boet", NT

[LeeInOz]

NJ, you should probably read your own post here "boet". It should give you a bloody good clue as to why you and your "direct approach" are not making any sales or winning any contracts in Australia!!! Maybe you should try being less of a hard-arse South African and try being a bit more of a motivated, open-minded fledgling Australian....

There are so many people on this forum who are trying to help you and giving you some damn good advice. Unfortunately you seem to compliment those who offer the advice you like, ignore the stuff you don't & criticize the people who provide constructive criticism.

I read this thread and first was amazed how rude NT was, then started to understand his frustrasion, but as I went on I see he has no will to listen and learn, but lots to say about how bad Australia is, how stupid anyone who likes it here is.

I know some South Africans that came with this conquor Australia attitude and went back as failures, and others that started working for others to learn the ropes and have ended up owning fairly sucessful businesses. I met one of hte failures before we migrated and if I had taken his version of Australia to heart we would not have come over. Yes it is tough, and Australins have different ideas to us. Some good some bad.

i cant understand, if rebranding the product as Australian will get it to move, I would do that.

If I had to give some away to get it out there I would do that too. I thought of several other ideas to ge tthe product moving but when the htere is no one listening, just complaining how bad it is.

South Africans are pretty resourceful, When I think software, I think of Mark Shuttleworth and the few that have ended up pretty well off at Microsoft and some guys I worked with at companies that were bought out by Dimension Data. I dont think Whinger Turtle is in that league by this thread

[Richard_B]

Hi Everybody,

Welcome to Australia 'The land of the lie'

Our Family arrived on 1 March 2007, and we are living in Hope Island on the Gold Coast. In a nutshell we have experienced what most SA families have... a daily rollercoaster ride.

We have been ripped off by fellow South Africans, and Australians alike. Watch out for the SA business networks, looking for your money... There is a reason why these people are so friendly. Please take note, that in OZ you get nothing for nothing.

Even replacing a watch battery will set you back $15 ... R90. In SA that would be "R15 for the battery sir, can I fit it for you, there is no charge tho fit the battery"

So you might say that SA has slave labour, and therefore things are cheaper (BTW: oz also has it's low lives, but unfortunately they are not colour coded for easy identification, and they earn the same money as you!), but I will say that in OZ there is a very significant element missing, and that is human kindness.

In SA Human kindness and courtesy still come before profit a lot of the time (Pick n Pay checkout staff definitely excluded). Who ever imagined being charged for tomato sauce with your meal? How petty and ridiculous? Do they really need that extra 30c? Does it affect the bottom line so much that it keeps them in business? Work it into the cost for goodness sakes, and stop being ridiculous.

Last friday the results of the inquest into the price of petrol was released. The findings were that there was "no reason found why petrol prices rise on a wednesday afternoon and fall on a monday". "It is a phenomenon that is unique to Australia". This is the official finding.

We all know the reason, people get paid on wendesday, and for those people who live from week to week, they have to fill up at the higher price, and therefore it affects the poor people the most. Why does the government not do something about it, it's so unproductive that people have to queue on a particular day, and then the pumps are quiet for the rest of the week?

Anyway... I could go on for hours, but in a nutshell, if you are a South African living in OZ (I do not believe in saffers by the way), get ready to downscale in a big way from what you are acustomed to. Even after you have converted your Rands to Dollars and you now have 15% left in Dollars, you will still pay double the price of the item cost in SA.

Examples:

Bottled Water: SA = R5.00, OZ $2 (R12.00)

Coke Tin: SA = R5.00, OZ $2.50 (R15.00)

Ice Cream Cone: SA = R5.00, OZ $3.00 (R18.00)

Cuppuchino: SA R12.00, OZ $3.50 (R21.00)

40ft container ZA to OZ R60 000

40ft container OZ to ZA $20 000 (R120 000)

How is this possible? it's the same thing just going the other way!

The only thing that is cheaper here is a car. That is it, virtually everything else is double the price that it is in SA. Even salaries are cheaper here!

So if you want any information, or just to let off steam by sharing silmilar stories about your experiences, then get in touch. I am by no means a depressed cynic, I am just a very realistic person who is very analytical by nature (I am in IT, did you guess?).

I like to compare things all the time just to see if I am winning or losing with my little gamble I have taken, but ultimately I have no desire to go back to SA at this point, as it seems that JZ has the white population in a frenzy, and I have had enough of that paranoid lifestyle.

If things were to improve significantly in SA, I would be back in flash, but I think, as we all know, the SA we have left behind no longer exists, and going back there would be like going back to your first house. When you get there you will again experience all the reasons why you left, and the whole exercise will be in vain.

In life you have to move forward, and somtimes you have to take a few steps backwards, to get a run up to make a flying leap forwards. That is the way I see it right now.

CIAO BABY

I really found nothing wrong with NJ post about Australia "The Land of the Lie'. What's wrong with with

the above comments. I have been in Australia longer than just about all of you(except the resident

aussies on this forum, off course). I am an australian citizen now, have been for a long time. I even

remember when tomato sauce was provided free of charge. It sat on the table with the salt and

pepper shaker, sugar bowl, and there was even a plastic container of brown sauce as well(similar to

the HP sauce we were used to). I'm talking about the local cafe's, milk bars, small eateries, those

restuarants that were attached to petrol stations on main roads between large towns and cities. etc.

MacDonalds and KFC were few and far between, compared to whats around these days. Most people,

usually teenages and upwards, when hungry, stopped at the local milk bar, usually owned by Greeks

or Italians. They stayed opened until nearly midnight(some of them). This was where you got your

hot chips, chiko rolls, hamburgers, fish and chips, BBQ Chicken, battered saveloys, soft drinks and

milk shakes. You even could order a sit down meal like chips, lamb chops and two veg. Pubs opened

at ten in the morning and closed at ten at night. All pubs were shut on sundays. You had to buy your

booze on saturday for a drink on sunday. All shops and supermarkets closed at midday on saturday

and remained closed until monday morning. Sydney, a ghost town, from 12 midday on saturday

until 9.00am monday. Chinese, Greek, and Italian shops- food outlets were the only places open

during the above hours. Some restuarants opened saturday night.....Now wouldn't that give you

something to whinge about? Sydney, NSW, was a real 9am-5pm joint in those days!...What I liked

about Sydney in those days?....One to three cinemas(bioscopes) in just about every suburb...AND!!

TELEVISION!!!! 4 channels, 2,7,9,10(they had it since 1956).

Australia, like the rest of the world has changed. American fast food outlets abound today. Everything

is money, money, money. Hence paying for every little thing. Once we got free bones from the

butcher for our dog, now you have to pay for it!(whinge, whinge, whinge )...Today, it's a paradise

compared to what was before. Food from all the different cultures galore, entertainment abounds. Cable,

satellite and regular TV. Video recorders and movie rentals, now DVD's. Mobile phones, supermarkets

opened 24 hrs, 7 days(Sydney)...Home delivery pizzas!!! Home computers, Internet!!. etc, etc, etc.

The down side about Sydney and Australia today? I would have to post it in 'The Cooler' section!

My attitude about Australia today? The best country in the world(100%) ...Don't want to live anywhere

else, and I've traveled abroad.....How long have I/we been here...1966!!!!!! Cheers. Richard.B