UNHAPPY IN AUSTRALIA

[4Coetzees]

Lately I saw alot of posts about unhappiness with the move and the hubby and coping with the kids while hubby is working and house cleaning and etc etc etc.

Who wanted to return to SA after a few days or weeks or months and why?

Are there any that returned to SA and might go back to Australia?

Are there any of you that never want to return to Australia?

Edited July 16, 2010 by Want to go now....

[RedPanda]

I think this could be a whole new (heated) and lengthy post!!

Preferably not.

With stuff like 'how do people treat each other' it's a national culture thing, and in my opinion those change too slowly for one person to see much difference in their lifetimes, and benefit from the change. So basically you are born in your time, make the most of it. The most you can do is to contribute to the change you want to see for your children and grandchildren. (or those generations, if you don't have any of your own)

True, you can sometimes pick your country, and in that way you can pick the national culture, but a country has so much attached to it wrapped up as a single package that you'll die of old age before you find one where you are happy with every single component in it.

[RedPanda]

The thing with the super and the pay gap is that apparently (it's really hard as a member of the public to know for sure how people collect and process their data) they compare the same career, and often the exact same job. And then they say women get paid less, for the same work.

If it was just the compound thing then women should have been able to just tack on 5 years more work at the end and be even. Somehow I don't think that happens.

Look, if you're married and your marriage contract is set up well (to split everything you make after you got married) then the deal should work out fine. I get the impression that the problems are:

single women lose on this deal

the principle is not right

if the marriage contract is not protective then women can be financial hostages in bad relationships

Like most things, it kinda works out for most people. But if you are not most people then it might not work for you.


but then I get back to what I said in the begining, I don't know exactly what data they collected and what they did with it subsequently, because you get: Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics.

[Naomihome]

Even though I earn more than my husband, I earn less than my peers, and I'm often overlooked when it comes to management positions because I have 2 small kids at home, I cant have too many days out and long hours overtime isnt possible all the time. If they are sick I have to suddenly take a leave day or two. Mostly that happens while we have the worst project deadlines. I have to take the leave, not my husband.

So from that you can deduce that its the husband's fault and not the employer's. If husbands are willing to take more responsibility wrt kids, women could do just as well in the workplace.

Isn't that similar in Aus and SA?

[OubaasDik]

... and then, further on the subject of statistics

"People Use Statistics as a Drunk Uses a Lamppost — For Support Rather Than Illumination"

Talking of tall poppy - I remember an Aussie who said something along the lines of how Aussies would cut down their own again and again, until he became too big to cut down, at which time he would be lauded by his fellow Aussies as a self-made man.

The words aren't exact, but that the gist of it.

But you see the tall poppy thing in many places - I read of an event at the drag races where people could bring their cars onto the track and show them off. One guy in shagged out Holden, was applauded, while another guy in a big Merc was booed off.

I have seen a story from Perth where a doctor took his Lambo for a service and the mechanic took it for a drive and was caught speeding, such that the cops decided to impound the car for 30 days. The doc was livid and was lawyering up and threatening to throw sueballs all over and refusing to pay the exorbitant fines demanded. There were letters in the paper, mostly from morons who couldn't understand why the doctor wouldn't pay, and why he was subverting justice (actually the law) because after all he could afford to hire a car, and he could afford the fine. The fact that he was incensed at the injustice of HIM being punished for someone else's transgression was not a factor as far as they were concerned. By the way the "impound someone else's car" thing was written into the law because so many young people were using parent's cars, and the pollies and police felt the parents should be responsible for their offspring's behaviour. A total travesty to apply it in this case, I felt. But that's why I'm not a great fan of sweeping punitive laws that the police and pollies tell me "it's only for circumstance X, it'll NEVER be used for anything else" - you can be sure it'll be part of the toolbox of books they throw at you. Statist thugs.

http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/hoon-laws-put-lamborghinis-owner-on-the-highway-to-hell-20100108-lygq.html

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-01-07/lamborghini-seized-after-mechanics-160kph-joyride/1201462

Edited November 27, 2015 by OubaasDik

[RYLC]

If husbands are willing to take more responsibility wrt kids, women could do just as well in the workplace.

Isn't that similar in Aus and SA?

No it's not similar here. There are many stay at home Dads and fathers generally are very hands on. Matt on this forum is one of them.

When my first child was a newborn we took him round to show some Saffa friends. Some of their Aussie friends were visiting and everybody wanted to hold him including ALL the men. I was really surprised to see how clucky the men were.

Edited November 27, 2015 by RYLC

[Mara]

Naomihome, it is then perhaps time to get your husband to change his views about childcare?

[Naomin81]

Don't get me wrong, my husband is extremely hands on with the kids, and I'm allowed out whenever I want to go out. I take at least two Friday evenings a month off, i work late sometimes, I go on a few trips once in a while. But when it comes to who's career we'll sacrifice, it's always mine. His job is always more important than mine. He can never take leave, while in reality I can't really afford to take that leave either. It's one thing to look after kids, it's another thing to sacrifice your career to do it. I don't think he has ever told his boss - hey sorry I can't go on that trip I have to watch the kids.

There was a guy who immigrated to Aus who kept posting on another forum I used to frequent. He was always going on about the nuclear family and how women aren't supposed to work as it has adverse effects on economies and whatnot. I cant help but think that the attitudes of many men have something to do with the statistics mentioned earlier. In my case I don't really feel like my employer is putting me down as a woman, it's more the kind of man I married, and I'm not really complaining - it's the life I chose and I'm happy with it. I think a lot of women make similar choices, they choose their family/husband and not their careers.

(I'm also Naomihome, but Facebook is blocked at work so I created another user.)

[AFreshStart]

Don't get me wrong, my husband is extremely hands on with the kids, and I'm allowed out whenever I want to go out. I take at least two Friday evenings a month off, i work late sometimes, I go on a few trips once in a while. But when it comes to who's career we'll sacrifice, it's always mine. His job is always more important than mine. He can never take leave, while in reality I can't really afford to take that leave either. It's one thing to look after kids, it's another thing to sacrifice your career to do it. I don't think he has ever told his boss - hey sorry I can't go on that trip I have to watch the kids.

There was a guy who immigrated to Aus who kept posting on another forum I used to frequent. He was always going on about the nuclear family and how women aren't supposed to work as it has adverse effects on economies and whatnot. I cant help but think that the attitudes of many men have something to do with the statistics mentioned earlier. In my case I don't really feel like my employer is putting me down as a woman, it's more the kind of man I married, and I'm not really complaining - it's the life I chose and I'm happy with it. I think a lot of women make similar choices, they choose their family/husband and not their careers.

(I'm also Naomihome, but Facebook is blocked at work so I created another user.)

Naomi,

I'm Matt, the person that RYLC referred to above. I've been a stay-at-home Dad since my eldest was born 5-years ago. I left my career to care for our kids, which is largely unheard of in South Africa.

Prior to getting married (incidentally today is our 11th wedding anniversary) we had shared that when we had kids one of us would stay home and raise them. For many reasons that ended up being me. My wife's career took off and I wanted her to advance it, I wholeheartedly supported her, even while studying and returned to full-time work in those early years to support her (I was running my own business prior to that).

Today she is a senior manager in audit for one of the Big 4 firms and continues to climb the corporate ladder. I sacrificed my career for hers and for our family do I have regrets, sometimes, but the pros overwhelm the cons. Statistically if she took off 5-10 years to raise our kids she'd have less than a 9% chance of reentering the workplace at her current position, whereas it would be easier for me to find work. She has had to make compromises herself, we decided to live in an apartment in the city to be close to work so she can help, it also give her more time at home with the kids and we've divided the chores and responsibilities.

Australia is VERY pro family and we have a FAR better work-life balance here than we did in South Africa. Parenting is shared by parents, you have to, esp. with younger children. Many parents with young children will share the load by each working part time, one parent working 2 days and the other 3 days a week to be available for/to their kids.

In my son's class of 20 students, 4 of us are stay-at-home Dad's.

The number of male primary caregivers in Australia has DOUBLED in the past 10-years, it's sitting at 144,000+, it's still a drop in the ocean with a population of 23 million, but the number is growing daily, particularly in urban areas with escalating costs of childcare. In Sydney it costs $35,000+ PER YEAR to send a child under 6 to a long-term daycare facility. If you have 2 kids that $70,000 a year, that's pretty much a single salary, half the median NSW household income (2 adults, 2 children).

I'm afraid to say that your husband is going to need a mind-shift if your marriage is going to survive this move. It is incredibly hard, losing that support structure you will BOTH need to lean on each other and it will probably be one of the hardest, most testing stages of your lives together and it's going to mean a lot of compromise, from both of you.

Cheers

Matt

[Naomin81]

Lol, can I leave my husband here and get an Aus one? Convincing him that we need to get out was hard enough.

I checked out Perth suburbs this week and found the one we'd likely end up in. I didn't completely like the place, but thought of it as a stepping stone to greater things. I still have to check out Melbourne and Canberra. My husband is most likely to find a job in Canberra. What will definitely not work ever in a million years - stay at home dad. He will suck at it terribly and my responsibilities will increase five fold. Our only option is to both have a job and pay for daycare. He said he'll go as low as teaching high school level biology, but no lower than that, haha. I'd love to be a stay at home mom, but we'll have to count on me getting a job at first because I'm SOC, that is much more likely.

[RedPanda]

58 minutes ago, Shellfish said:

Aagh, South African's get on my nerves. They arrive in Australia and think that because they have a degree, nice car and earn decent money that they are important. News Flash  Princess - so do most people in Aus. You are the same as everyone else. No-one is running around calling you baas and thinking you are a better person and more deserving of nice things and happiness - You are the same as everyone else. If that's not enough and you need to feel important and be in the elite, best you head back..

Although the sentiment is true in general, I don't know where this is coming from specifically, aimed at Naomin81?

[RYLC]

32 minutes ago, RedPanda said:

Although the sentiment is true in general, I don't know where this is coming from specifically, aimed at Naomin81?

You'll understand better once you have lived here for a while.  It's a bit like understanding an "in" joke.  It's too hard to explain without "living " it.  Sorry to seem cryptic but all will be revealed after May 2016 once you have aclimatised (I see you updated your Landed status ahead of schedule - go RedPanda )

[RYLC]

On 28/11/2015, 12:37:12, Naomin81 said:

He said he'll go as low as teaching high school level biology, but no lower than that,

I hope you are both joking about teaching being low.  If not then you are going to HATE Australia and might want to rethink your reasons for wanting to move here.  You  need a compelling list of reasons why you want to come to Australia and how you plan to integrate yourselves to the way of life here.

For example, I know of families who have made the decision to move and then begun to "live" the Australian way in RSA.  No maid, everybody pitches in, kids do chores, husband irons shirts for work, cooks a meal during the week that isn't a bbq, etc etc. They also started taking their kids and baby everywhere they went because there is no leaving the kids with the maid here.  So if you can't see yourselves living like this then think seriously about what you want your life to be like.

Edited December 1, 2015 by RYLC

[RedPanda]

29 minutes ago, RYLC said:

For example, I know of families who have made the decision to move and then begun to "live" the Australian way in RSA.  No maid, everybody pitches in, kids do chores, husband irons shirts for work, cooks a meal during the week that isn't a bbq, etc etc. They also started taking their kids and baby everywhere they went because there is no leaving the kids with the maid here.  So if you can't see yourselves living like this then think seriously about what you want your life to be like.

We also decided to make the transition as easy as possible, we have no house maid, no gardener, we both cook, we fix things around the house ourselves. I just felt that there is no reason to get used to help if you won't have it that side, so rather try to change as many things that we can this side, while we can still visit friends and family for moral support and a 'pick me up'. We already got rid of a lot of 'rubbish' that we'd been dragging along with us from place to place. We'll probably chuck out a load more before we get the movers over. I can't think of anything else now, and I think there are fewer things, because we don't have kids yet.

But we're certainly going over 'to join the Aussie team', not to be Saffers in Australia.

During our two trips, and my loads of reading, I have also picked up that the Aussies respect their tradies much more than we do. I like that. I'm looking forward to that.  

[Naomin81]

32 minutes ago, RYLC said:

I hope you are both joking about teaching being low.  If not then you are going to HATE Australia and might want to rethink your reasons for wanting to move here.  You  need a compelling list of reasons why you want to come to Australia and how you plan to integrate yourselves to the way of life here.

For example, I know of families who have made the decision to move and then begun to "live" the Australian way in RSA.  No maid, everybody pitches in, kids do chores, husband irons shirts for work, cooks a meal during the week that isn't a bbq, etc etc. They also started taking their kids and baby everywhere they went because there is no leaving the kids with the maid here.  So if you can't see yourselves living like this then think seriously about what you want your life to be like.

It's just that he didn't study for 13 years to become a high school teacher. He is way overqualified. He can lecture biology at university level. So yes it is low compared to what he is qualified to do. It's the same as telling an engineer they have to take a position as a draughtsman. Or a pediatrician that has to be an ambulance assistant. I don't regard other fields of study as beneath my own.

I only have a nanny since I don't want to send my small baby to school yet. The nanny does some cleaning. When the baby is 1yo he'll go to school like his bro. We used to have someone help with washing once a week before we had kids. When we appointed the nanny we didn't want to leave her without a salary, so we kept her for three days a week until the next kid was born and she is currently working full time again.

Anyway, it is a really big issue with us because my husband doesn't clean, so I made a deal with him that he pay me minimum wage per hour that I spend on cleaning OR we don't immigrate.

 

On a different note:

Our marriage contract isn't set up to allow me to be a stay at home mom. What do I do?

[RedPanda]

1 minute ago, Naomin81 said:

On a different note:

Our marriage contract isn't set up to allow me to be a stay at home mom. What do I do?

I'm not sure what that means? Do you mean that if it should happen that you get a divorce, then he would get everything he earned and you would get everything you earned? (Or something like that.)

Or do you mean it literally says that if you don't work then it's grounds for an annulment?

[Naomin81]

It is a standard marriage contract outside of community of property without accrual.

We half-half on everything and need to set up special contracts if we decide to buy something together, so to avoid this I buy some things and he buys other things. If I don't have any income, it means I wont be able to acquire assets unless he gives something to me for free.

[Sibella]

Don't worry your South African marriage contract means nothing in Australia.

[RedPanda]

5 minutes ago, Naomin81 said:

It's just that he didn't study for 13 years to become a high school teacher. He is way overqualified. He can lecture biology at university level. So yes it is low compared to what he is qualified to do. It's the same as telling an engineer they have to take a position as a draughtsman. Or a pediatrician that has to be an ambulance assistant. I don't regard other fields of study as beneath my own.

Ok, I have a question: Would you still mind the 'lower' job if it paid the same as the 'higher' one?

And then also: Have you looked at the Australian pay structure? Engineers earn the same as teachers.(literally, really. I looked it up a year ago)

I'm not asking this to be nasty or anything, I just want to check if you are aware of this? Australia really is a much 'flatter' society than RSA. In Aussie you don't go study something hard to earn more money, you study that cause that's what you want to do. They also don't go:"Woah, you are a doctor! Respect!", they just say:"Oh, yeah? Had a good day, seen anything interesting lately?"
They have enough skilled migration to keep key skills filled so they don't need a monetary incentive for their people to study hard. And I doubt they'd tolerate migrants very well if they had to bow and scrape to them.  

Read up, and go over with an open mind.

[RYLC]

Just now, Naomin81 said:

It is a standard marriage contract outside of community of property without accrual.

We half-half on everything and need to set up special contracts if we decide to buy something together, so to avoid this I buy some things and he buys other things. If I don't have any income, it means I wont be able to acquire assets unless he gives something to me for free.

I think you'll find that this contract won't stand up under Australian law once you live here.

As an aside: you got bad advice at the time to not have accrual (particularly as you have kids) but it's done now.  The good news is that Australia don't follow this system.

[RedPanda]

4 minutes ago, Sibella said:

Don't worry your South African marriage contract means nothing in Australia.

I sincerely hope that's not really true???

What is the standard Aussie contract then? [Cause we're married outside community, with accrual]

[RYLC]

Just now, RedPanda said:

I sincerely hope that's not really true???

What is the standard Aussie contract then? [Cause we're married outside community, with accrual]

The family court takes into account any children.  So no kids usually means a 50: 50 split of all assets including super even if the wife does not work or has a much lower paid job.

Once there are children then the split is usually in favour of the custodial parent.  Sometimes 60 : 40 sometimes 70 : 30.  It depends on how many kids and their ages.

Even defacto gets this deal so marriage contracts are meaningless and it is quite difficult (if not impossible) to opt out of community of property.

[RedPanda]

1 minute ago, RYLC said:

The family court takes into account any children.  So no kids usually means a 50: 50 split of all assets including super even if the wife does not work or has a much lower paid job.

This part sounds like "with accrual", so that is fine.

Once there are children then the split is usually in favour of the custodial parent.  Sometimes 60 : 40 sometimes 70 : 30.  It depends on how many kids and their ages.

Even defacto gets this deal so marriage contracts are meaningless and it is quite difficult (if not impossible) to opt out of community of property.
Community of property... I don't like this. But does it mean the same in Aussie as it does in RSA? Can the bank collect my car because of my husband's debt? (As an example) Because that is the aspect that has always bothered us the most about Community of Property. Also, are we two separate legal entities or one?

The joint bank accounts work A LOT better than the RSA ones, so I'm holding out hope for their version of Community of Property.

 

[RYLC]

1 minute ago, RedPanda said:

Community of property... I don't like this. But does it mean the same in Aussie as it does in RSA? Can the bank collect my car because of my husband's debt? (As an example) Because that is the aspect that has always bothered us the most about Community of Property. Also, are we two separate legal entities or one?

The joint bank accounts work A LOT better than the RSA ones, so I'm holding out hope for their version of Community of Property.

Debt will depend on who signed for it I think but banks usually try to get both to sign so that they can go after any assets held by either party. 

You are two separate legal entities but considered one family unit by Centrelink so family income is used for determining eligibility for payments etc.

[Naomin81]

33 minutes ago, RYLC said:

I hope for your sake that I'm wrong but I think that you'll find that Australia is not going to suit you.  Have you done a Look See trip?  I would strongly advise that you do one if you can.  Have you travelled overseas at all to any other countries too?

 

Mrs. Judgmental,

Haha lol, you can't really say that after reading one or two forum posts. We will go on a Look & See when he attends the next international conference (I'm not sure what it's about) in Aus (next year it's in Colorado). I've lived in the UK and my husband has been to Korea. And Mozambique if that counts, and Botswana, and Namibia. I've also lived in Gauteng, Free State and Limpopo.

We're not just going to hop on a plane and fly over. We're doing more research than you can believe and also looking at other countries. Maids are pretty expensive in any first world country.. We have 3 years to make up our minds.

And yes there are several things I don't feel completely comfortable with wrt Australia.

I've been lower than low looking for a job so you can't tell me anything about that. I've worked in security, catering, cosmetics, door to door sales, etc while I was qualified. In SA I had to waiter because I couldn't find a job and people who studied with me and had jobs came to eat the restaurant where I worked.

Sincerely,

Naomi

Edited December 1, 2015 by Naomin81

[RedPanda]

It appears to me that as long as we have an actual antenuptial contract then it (the contract) will be honoured, provided it's legal. Ok, well that was a mini-heart attack averted.