So. Came back. And...

[hopalong]

So. After 6 years in Oz and getting our citizenship after four of those years, we decided to come back to SA. We packed up all our stuff, and shipped it here.

Been here now for 8 months. And it feels like the worst choice we could have ever made. I won't go into all the detail, but it's basically the same reasons we left, and are the same reasons most people leave.

I'll save you from the "everything is worse than it was 6 years ago in SA" spiel. This is not what this post is about.

The thing is that I am petrified of going back to Oz. Went into depression the first time we moved there. Took me 7 months to find a job. Even though I am highly qualified and experienced with an Aussie masters degree in business, and a decade of management experience.

I experienced so much damn xenophobia and bullying in the workplace that I thought maybe I'm the problem. Maybe I need to just "become more Aussie". But on closer analysis, almost every foreigner in there was treated like crap and bullied. Tried another two companies. And it was pretty much the same thing. I clearly don't have the thick skin that some of my more successful expat acquaintances have who have experienced the same thing but are able to move on quickly.

Even as an Aussie citizen, things didn't change. Being bullied and being front of line for retrenchment.

Hence my trepidation of going back to Melbourne.

I love what Aus gave to us. A sense of safety from crime and the chance to earn good money and bring our children up in a great environment. But I hate what it did to me personally. Taking a few hits on the chin is one thing. But to take them day in and day out kills your spirit and your will to go on. Thank God for my children and wife.

Have any of you ever left and gone back? Did you find it different the second time around?

We do have an option to go to the UK. I love the brits. So easy to get along with and I can identify with them. But starting again with a family in a new country is freaking me out. I guess six years of being broken down will do that to you.

Edited September 17, 2013 by hopalong

[Kuipers]

I would like to share my work experiences while in Australia from the vantage point of working in the unskilled market. I initially landed in Perth in 2001 and went up to Carnarvon to find work on fishing vessels, I worked on yachts in the USA so had some experience. The Australians I encountered were very vocal of not wanting foreigners on their vessels and being the only non Aussie on my first boat, they would gang up and make sure I was aware they all felt the same way. I initially tried to outwork the others so as to earn their respect, I didn't mind baiting (worst job) everyday while the rest of the crew rotated the work load. Meal times were interesting when the cook didn't prepare enough food... Anyway I decided to look at another vessel, but while on shore leave I met an English expat that was also working on the fishing vessels and the advice I got from him was priceless.

Essentially he explained that when anybody at work gives you a hard time you immediately give them a hard time back, but its not as simple as that, this usually gets an Aussie in a defensive frame of mind and the next quip they make will more than likely be on how confrontational you are being. Now what he said I should do was the clincher. My next interaction must not involve an apology but rather to turn the incident into a joke and fob it off like nothing of importance transpired. Essentially we both save face and the xenophobia gets nipped in the bud. If it works you will more than likely get a derogatory nickname, but don't worry, the worse the nickname the more they like you. Once you have a nickname you can then try and outwork them but never gloat and if you ever get praised, always emphasize it was a team effort even if it wasn't.

I ended up working in many sectors ranging from fishing to tele sales from Perth to Brisbane and at every new job I always expected a small amount of xenophobia and always used the the above technique to establish ground rules, if I felt I was encountering somebody who could end up making my life hell, I never got bullied again after the initial boat in Carnarvon, but did witness some cases of xenophobic bullying, but to be honest the ones who got picked on usually stood out of the crowd like sore thumbs.

''The Australian way'' for me is the ability to blend in with the rest of the crowd, don't be a threat to your colleagues and never allow yourself to have that victim mentality, as this is were ''precious'' term stems from.

[AndreaL]

Kuipers, thanks for that. I think there is a lot of truth in your post, and you have explained the unwritten and unspoken way that men resolve things here. If you've got a sense of humour you'll survive.....................and you know you have made the grade so to speak, when they give you a nickname.

You're right, if they tease you and you bristle, they'll just tell you to take a chill pill or make a smart comment..............so you have to defuse it or be cleverer and pass it back, by making a smart yet jokey comment to them.................that way you establish the ground rules............................gosh it's hard being a man...........we women do it way differently.

Actually I like the way men do it, far more logical than the bitching and social exclusion methods that women tend to use.

I love some of the names, this is in mining, so not representative of other industries, but one fellow gets called shrat (lower than a s*#t house rat), another quite negative man gets called cyclone ( because he is a slow moving depression) those who are employed to go underground but are always found on surface are called bubbles ( they always float to the surface) ...........there are loads more that are far too rude to be shared on this page

I think those South Africans that have worked abroad, especially in the UK will get "how it works" far quicker, as the Australian way is very similar to the British way.

Good post Kuipers

[Toitjie]

Interesting read Kuipers. I am currently trying to find my way into the job market, and as with everything else, I get a lot of advice from all over. I try to be as open minded as possible but some of the things I heard is scaring me a little. I have a good sense of humour but Im not one of those that can have a funny quib readily available I always think later what a good thing to say would have been but in the moment...I just cant

My friend who has been here for 3 years told me bluntly that there are many bullies in the workplace. Especially if you are South African. She told me that sucking up is the way to go, never to stand out (as mentioned hundreds of times on this forum); to blend, not to seem too intelligent, especially in the beginning, to be all about the team. But even if you do all that, and your manager don't like you, you have problems.

My biggest challenges are that Im very introverted so getting "out there" is wide outside my comfort zone, but Im trying really hard And Im not really the jokey type..I will try of course but if it's not in your nature its hard. Im very serious...sometime too serious...I have many times wished I could be more like my hubby....he is perfect...can make jokes about anything!

[Nev]

I started writing a response to this and it grew its own head so i created a separate post for it:

http://www.saaustralia.org/index.php/topic/41673-fitting-in-with-the-australian-attitude/

[AndreR]

My biggest challenges are that Im very introverted so getting "out there" is wide outside my comfort zone, but Im trying really hard And Im not really the jokey type..I will try of course but if it's not in your nature its hard. Im very serious...sometime too serious...I have many times wished I could be more like my hubby....he is perfect...can make jokes about anything!

One thing I was told recently by an Aussie is that South Africans are very serious and very formal. I replied that after a couple of drinks they tend to loosen up But I think he's kind of right, analysing my own behaviour when I first meet people. Luckily I'm in IT and we mostly have the geek thing in common, so I find its easier to break the ice with my new colleagues. I'm also an introvert, and it might work in your favour because you wont "stand out" like a "tall poppy", preferring to blend into the background. At least it seems to be working out for me.

[Ghretta]

We have only been in Australia (Sydney) for around 7 months and eating humble pie everyday.....work wise, and rental wise!! If I didn't remind myself of the bigger picture on a daily basis I am not sure that I would still be standing!! It sucks! We also have feelings of depression and desperation sometimes, it is not easy moving countries and landing a horrible job where you are treated badly.... and you have to take it for survival....is below humane and just the bloody pitts, sorry to hear your struggles hopalong. Because work takes up most of our life I guess it is a very important and sensitive issue, and a lot depends on it. Our main and sometimes only solace is that our children are super happy with their new school, friends and freedom....if it wasn't for this (oh and how much it cost us to get here!!!!) we might have given up by now and also returned to SA.

[DanieR]

We lived in Australia for 6 years and returned to South Africa last year to sell our business. This has not happened yet, and we decided to plan on returning mid next year. It is interesting to read the comments regarding work and general culture in Australia. I worked both on the east and west coast for 6 different employers. The jobs varied from engineering to garden maintenance, and from mail distribution to lecturing.

During the 6 years I can honestly say that all these experiences were positive and I was always sad to leave or move on. I found the Australians very accommodating, and as long as you remain humble in your approach, they will quickly accept you into their worlds. A fair comment I often came across was that some Saffas are viewed as being status focused aggressive and even arrogant.

Best is to proof this perception wrong and enjoy the wonderful relaxed and friendly culture we are looking forward to returning to soon!

[Andreventer]

So. After 6 years in Oz and getting our citizenship after four of those years, we decided to come back to SA. We packed up all our stuff, and shipped it here.

Been here now for 8 months. And it feels like the worst choice we could have ever made. I won't go into all the detail, but it's basically the same reasons we left, and are the same reasons most people leave.

I'll save you from the "everything is worse than it was 6 years ago in SA" spiel. This is not what this post is about.

The thing is that I am petrified of going back to Oz. Went into depression the first time we moved there. Took me 7 months to find a job. Even though I am highly qualified and experienced with an Aussie masters degree in business, and a decade of management experience.

I experienced so much damn xenophobia and bullying in the workplace that I thought maybe I'm the problem. Maybe I need to just "become more Aussie". But on closer analysis, almost every foreigner in there was treated like crap and bullied. Tried another two companies. And it was pretty much the same thing. I clearly don't have the thick skin that some of my more successful expat acquaintances have who have experienced the same thing but are able to move on quickly.

Even as an Aussie citizen, things didn't change. Being bullied and being front of line for retrenchment.

Hence my trepidation of going back to Melbourne.

I love what Aus gave to us. A sense of safety from crime and the chance to earn good money and bring our children up in a great environment. But I hate what it did to me personally. Taking a few hits on the chin is one thing. But to take them day in and day out kills your spirit and your will to go on. Thank God for my children and wife.

Have any of you ever left and gone back? Did you find it different the second time around?

We do have an option to go to the UK. I love the brits. So easy to get along with and I can identify with them. But starting again with a family in a new country is freaking me out. I guess six years of being broken down will do that to you.

My friend. So sorry bout ur experience. It happens to us all. Do what ur heart tells u and communicate this with ur wife. She will be the wiser. Good luck;)

[Nev]

My thoughts on the subject, feel free to consider and ignore if they dont fit

If you are able to keep moving around then give England a go, if not think very carefully about it

I have a few friends and work mates who are English born and they have told me that they well never go back due to the lack of opportunities, crime & weather (As compared to Auz), but then each person has a different experience.

I was involved in a survey last year where various expats around the world were questioned and the UK had more south africans heading back to SA compared to Auz by a factor of 4 or 5, i can try and dig up the results if you are interested.

So bottom line, if you are able to move, i would give it the UK a go anyway, but go into it knowing it is a test and see how it works for you (I honestly wish i could spend some time living in Europe, get a 2 week Euro-rail ticket and tour Europe for cheap when you not working or have leave), if not i would suggest giving Auz another go, you are used to Auz now so i suspect that you will find the UK harder than people going their directly from SA.

There is also a lot of recent posts on fitting in with the Auzzie culture that i can link to you,

I have also had Friends move back to SA, the problem is the longer you stay away the more you forget the bad side (Human nature to do that) to the point where SA seems better than the AU (Especially during the honeymoon period when you go there for a holiday), until you go live there again and all the dramas show up again

Sit down and think about what you want for your future an the future of your kids, then make the call

[Hoggy]

Thanks for everyone's thoughts and advice.

I took all of the issues I was experiencing up with our HR manager and my boss a number of times, but everything fell on deaf ears.

The bullying and xenophobia I mean. Just trying to do my job to the best of my ability was a nightmare because I was always being targeted for doing things to a high standard. Tall poppies.

. I really love Melbourne as a city. We considered Perth when we were still there. We thought that because there were so many Saffers there it may be an easier culture to adjust to.

When we moved to Melbourne, we moved there with a very positive attitude about the future, and an attitude that we would remain there forever. But also realistically expecting a hard slog. I'm no shrinking violet when it comes to hard work or a challenge, and I didn't expect to move straight into the level role I had here in SA. What I didn't expect was the lack of work ethics and the "f-off to where you came from" attitudes in a professional environment. I was even very aware of being too "south african aggressive" in my work approach, as we're often seen, and that didn't help either.

It's not really a matter of whether we want to leave SA or not. We want to leave because we don't believe it's the right place for us. It's about being a bang broek about experiencing the same thing that I did when we were there. It took its toll on all of us. And I don't want to put my family through that again, seeing their husband and father being reduced to a puddle because of work issues and bullying.

The night we became Aussie citizens, I was "proper proud". I would call myself a proud Aussie because the country allowed us to find a new home and had systems in place that supported us. Things there work. But that pride soon left when it became clear that those born and bred there don't give a toss. You'll always be an outsider.

They were very difficult to work with. Mainly because of their poor work ethic and the "that's not how we do it in Australia...mate".

Don't want this to turn into Aussie bashing because I still count myself as one. I was just wondering if anyone had experienced the same thing. It looks like some have.

.

I've edit the quote from hop along .... Cause it's about where I'm at at the moment. My boss was given the boot, cause he was rocking the boat. He looks Chinese but was born in Aus. His advice to me was that if I want to progress, I have to leave the company. To me it appears to be the way the collective think in a company or environment. If you think outside that, you rock the boat.

Trying to come up with solutions that will benefit the company are nearly impossible. The only person I could actually confide in was my boss. Now he's gone. My wife and I have decided to sell out existing property and make a move to somewhere where there are more Saffers. That way we can actually speak the same cultural group and mingle with professional people we are used to mingle with. My dilemma is that my wife has a good job, and I'm the one with the bad job situated in the country. But we are working on that.

Gong back to rsa? On holiday, but I I really hate the politics there. And Bee/Bbbee etc were just grating my wife and I.

[SurferMan]

I feel for you guys. I have experienced a touch of Aussie pushing and I pushed back, no diffs from what I experienced in SA, just less aggressive but the same none the less.

I contract so get to see and meet hordes of clients, and by and large they are all awesome and great to interact with. There are some that irritate me, just as I am sure I irritate some others. That's life.

Reading the above, I must say I am super blessed, because although my line of work in IT is super high pressure I really enjoy what I do and don't feel what is being experienced above.

Whatever your choices, stay true to yourself, as the old adages of 1: you can't lie to yourself, 2: number one looks after number one.

Of course if you are Zuma (THE Saffer Number One! for those who follow the news) he takes it to a whole new level with the 200 million blown on his pad at Nkandla....

In the long term, where will you be happiest? For me, Aus is it.

Best wishes

[mistermoose]

Or, as Pieter Dirk-Uys said: Number 2 would be a more fitting title

Of course if you are Zuma (THE Saffer Number One! for those who follow the news) he takes it to a whole new level with the 200 million blown on his pad at Nkandla....

[sbhennops]

Hi Hopalong. Sorry to hear about your issues. I experienced it a bit, but stood up and told a few people off outside the office and they backed off. I also joined a sport club, and volenteered at a few places to get this Aussie thing down pat. If someone tries to bully me, I just ask them what there problem is and if they think to intimidate me, they had better get in line because I don't get intimidated. Sometime the direct approach with the Aussies is best, as most of them aren't used to being confronted when they are being a jerk and if you pull them up in public, and humiliate them if you need to, it solves a problem and sends a sure message. Be strong and stand up for yourself and you will get the respect you deserve... Good luck.

[JH6410]

Hi Hopelong

Working in Aus is different than working in RSA. Yes you will have to start at a lower level, which seems an issue for you, but you will rise quicker because of your experience. You come from a different country with no real work refs, what do you expect, you need to build Aus experience!! RSA people, like me, expect to start at the top because we were at the top in the RSA, but no go.. like you I was a program director but started at a project manager again.. That is life..

J

[Desertroseas]

I have been living in Australia (not by choice) for 3+ years now and I

will never like it here, nor will I even consider emigrating, applying

for citizenship/ passport.

However I liked/ enjoyed it years ago when I was here on holiday.

I find the people rough, tough, backwards ......... and I have been to Sydney,

Perth, Melbourne, Adelaide, Brisbane, Darwin etc. I go back home/ JHB min.

4 times a year and I love it.

I love South Africa and I can't wait to go back home after 3 years. There is

so much more to do and my South Africa is much more beautiful, life is easy ........

What is there not to like ?

[Nev]

What is there not to like ?

This:

http://www.saaustralia.org/index.php/topic/36811-something-i-put-together-on-why-to-go-to-australia/

[mistermoose]

I have been living in Australia (not by choice) for 3+ years now and I

will never like it here, nor will I even consider emigrating, applying

for citizenship/ passport.

However I liked/ enjoyed it years ago when I was here on holiday.

I find the people rough, tough, backwards ......... and I have been to Sydney,

Perth, Melbourne, Adelaide, Brisbane, Darwin etc. I go back home/ JHB min.

4 times a year and I love it.

I love South Africa and I can't wait to go back home after 3 years. There is

so much more to do and my South Africa is much more beautiful, life is easy ........

What is there not to like ?

What???! Do you really find all Austrlians to be like this?

[JH6410]

Hi Desertoseas

Tell me this, do you live behind burglar bars in Australia, in Adelaide and Darwin we don't. Can you walk the streets at night, not is a security estate? Do you have reliable and safe public transport in South Africa, we do, do you have job security with no affirmative action, we do, am I valued as an individual in Adelaide and Darwin, yes.

The reason for Adelaide and Darwin is because we have lived in both. Yes it takes 2-3 years to settle but after 8 years in Aus and returning on 2 trips to the RSA, the lawlessness and visible racism made us re-evaluate our view of South Africa and my 2 teenage daughters said that they would never return. We had friends return to Randburg from Adelaide because as a housewife she wanted to return after 4 years, she was attacked and molested within 4 weeks after their return, they now live in Canada.

Stats show that 3 out of 5 woman will be raped in South Africa in their lifetime, I have a wife and 2 daughters, the question is not why but when.

After 2 home invasions and 2 hijackings, beat that to leaving, we were lucky that I only sustained a wound and lived.

It took my daughters 2 years to go to the supermarket on their own without fear following a late afternoon invasion and theft with men and fire arms.

My kids are now at university, take public transport, we have secure jobs and a fence free house, doing really well.

Should you feel that Australia is not for you go back, it's up to you and if you have kids, think of them as well.

I hope it works out for you but for us, we will never return to South Africa, not even for a holiday.

Moving country is a personal choice, how could you have been forced to come here?

Johan

[chzaau]

I also was puzzled by being forced.

[mistermoose]

Hi Desertoseas

We had friends return to Randburg from Adelaide because as a housewife she wanted to return after 4 years, she was attacked and molested within 4 weeks after their return, they now live in Canada.

Sad state of affairs. Do you know why they chose to move to Canada and not back to Australia?

[JH6410]

Mistermoose,

The reason for Canada was a direct company transfer, he is a Process Engineer.

[pastapete]

Hi Hopelong,

I feel for you brother. I have been here 10 years and I have experienced all that you have gone through (with respect).

The Aussies do not like immigrants and while they pretend to give you a fair go, it only applies to them.

I have my own business and its no different, but there is good news. They will soon be in the minority.

Our future is looking good as the immigrants and children of immigrants will be the majority in the next 5 years.

You are smarter than them. call bullying when you see it and take it to fair work. Its a world wide phenomena.

If you ever come back to Sydney, look me up. We saussies bond, we help each other and stick together.

Must also say they are not all like this. There are many wonderful Aussies too and some crappy saffers who wish you well,

but not too well.

I wish you love and blessings

Peter (Panarottis/Spur) Macarthur

[pastapete]

May I just add something here. As a business owner in Aus, i can tell you that there are specific laws relating to bullying in the work place and they ARE enforceable.

You need to communicate to management in writing that you are being bullied.Please make sure you note everything that is said to you. Witnesses or recordings would be wonderful. Repeat the allegation again in writing and go and see your doctor. Tell him you are depressed from bullying and you need medication and time off. Take time off and send the doctors note to your employer. Contact Fair work, pay $50 and let them take over. If you genuinely have a case the firm can and probably will get fined $50K. Most importantly once you have started the process they wouldn't dare fire you as this would be unfair dismissal. Chances are you will have a few months off or pick up a nice cheque. You can't beat them then join them. become an Aussie and play by their rules and win.

[JH6410]

PastaPete

I agree with you 100%, there is a process in Aus, use it and it works.

Desertroseas: to get back to your comments, immigration is not for everybody especially if you have strong family ties in South Africa, but think why you left in the first place and if this has changed then you are good to go back. Good luck in any case with your decision, we have accepted Aus as our own and accepted the culture, opened a business, that my wife runs and we are happy, like I said it took 3 years to get there though moving from a R1,8mil income to a $250K income hits home.

Johan

[McCabes]

I can only wonder if Desertroseas is for real, or stirring for the fun of it - no offense intended, but there are a number of troll-like qualities to that post. Either that... or I really have to wonder...

I'm glad you enjoy your holidays here... I hope you realise that there is a stark contrast in having a holiday vs working and living here, day in, day out.

Maybe if you're from russia or china, SA looks good. But I can't credit that someone from a first world country would want to live here...

Unless of course, all your holidays are spent in Sandton? Then it... kind of... makes sense.

Edited February 4, 2014 by McCabes