So. Came back. And...

[hopalong]

So. After 6 years in Oz and getting our citizenship after four of those years, we decided to come back to SA. We packed up all our stuff, and shipped it here.

Been here now for 8 months. And it feels like the worst choice we could have ever made. I won't go into all the detail, but it's basically the same reasons we left, and are the same reasons most people leave.

I'll save you from the "everything is worse than it was 6 years ago in SA" spiel. This is not what this post is about.

The thing is that I am petrified of going back to Oz. Went into depression the first time we moved there. Took me 7 months to find a job. Even though I am highly qualified and experienced with an Aussie masters degree in business, and a decade of management experience.

I experienced so much damn xenophobia and bullying in the workplace that I thought maybe I'm the problem. Maybe I need to just "become more Aussie". But on closer analysis, almost every foreigner in there was treated like crap and bullied. Tried another two companies. And it was pretty much the same thing. I clearly don't have the thick skin that some of my more successful expat acquaintances have who have experienced the same thing but are able to move on quickly.

Even as an Aussie citizen, things didn't change. Being bullied and being front of line for retrenchment.

Hence my trepidation of going back to Melbourne.

I love what Aus gave to us. A sense of safety from crime and the chance to earn good money and bring our children up in a great environment. But I hate what it did to me personally. Taking a few hits on the chin is one thing. But to take them day in and day out kills your spirit and your will to go on. Thank God for my children and wife.

Have any of you ever left and gone back? Did you find it different the second time around?

We do have an option to go to the UK. I love the brits. So easy to get along with and I can identify with them. But starting again with a family in a new country is freaking me out. I guess six years of being broken down will do that to you.

Edited September 17, 2013 by hopalong

[elleneo]

I did not presume anything, I am merely telling you what I was told, and I found the advice helpful. I did not accuse you of being anything or behaving in any particular way.

I had to requalify (having being an advocate in South Africa) and then compete with 23 year olds for graduate jobs. That advice helped me stay focused on the big picture and end result of finding a job I was happy with in an environment where I felt valued. If you are unhappy in he job you can always find a new one.

I must say that your response, which is very defensive does clarify a lot for me. You are of course free to take or leave any advice you hear.

[MarcK]

On to my second job in Australia and can honestly say have not experienced any type of bullying (thankfully!!). Aussies joke a lot and sometimes say things that are very un-PC. As a gay man I have experienced "jokes" that many a time have crossed the line and I think this has helped me to adjust to the Aussie way. When I do feel my colleagues are over-stepping the line I typically pipe up for them to be careful...in a joking manner of course!

I am really sorry to hear of your experience and wish you and your family much happiness in the future and finding peace with the decision you make.

[JackieO]

The notion of having to eat humble pie presumes that I was arrogant in my approach to my work. I was not. It's insulting. It reminds me of the juvenile Aussie comments of being "precious" about something because you have a strong view about something and aren't willing to adopt groupthink or go with the crowd, because you stand up for your belief and your values and your experience.

If by rubbing me up the wrong way because other expat colleagues and I were discriminated and bullied, then damn right they rubbed me up the wrong way. And as I mentioned in previous posts, I went in there with eyes wide open and knowing that I was entering a culture that was different to what I was used to. I had worked with Aussies in the UK and I knew full well what to expect. But bullying and condescending attitudes in three different companies was not one of them. Please don't pontificate to me or anyone else who has experienced the same thing about our need to eat humble pie.

And the full picture just became crystal clear......

[Nev]

I am a senior software developer in Melbourne and have been here for nearly 2 years now, my job takes me to many different customer sites as i do scoping and implementation (Microsoft Dynamics NAV) and i have never experienced bullying or discrimination after having worked with perhaps 15 different companies now.

My wife has also worked at 3 different companies and found the same

If you are going along with the concept of the group is greater than the sum of the parts approach here then it is the company and you really need to look for another job, but it is most certainly not the norm

Edited September 24, 2013 by Nev

[spark]

We are returning to South Africa in 2 weeks for good. Cant wait!

[HansaPlease]

We are returning to South Africa in 2 weeks for good. Cant wait!

Hi Spark,

Best of luck back home in the motherland.

If I read correctly you're only been here a few months, do you want to share with us why you're leaving?

[AndreaL]

It could be the ridiculous hoops one has to jump through to get an electrical license these days, but yes, it would be nice to know your thoughts as it might help someone else, but only if you feel you want to

[RosFam]

Hi all

My family and I just relocated back to SA after a year spent in the pressure cooker that is Sydney. The toll the move took on our health was immense and once cannot under rate the stress having to integrate into a culture, and a work culture that is so different from SA's. We are also grappling with the guilt of taking our kids out of a safe and caring environment, but mom and dad were not handling the move well at all. I have limited experience in the Aussie workplace, but what I can say is that respect is not something that comes with a title in Aus. People not pitching to meetings, or responding to emails , or just generally engaging and being willing to help are not givens. I had to work hard to gain small amounts of momentum to do my work, which at the end of it all was largely ineffective. The stress of going into a workplace daily knowing you are going to be shutout or shutdown in soul breaking. We too would like to give Aus another shot as we feel that SA isn't a place we want to be in forever, but the daunting demon of the Aussie workplace is hanging over us like a dark cloud.

The biggest adjustment to coming back to SA has been the lowering of standards, but the pace of life in SA is a pleasure to the rat race stuff we were subjected to in Sydney. Make the move when you are a young and you will be good, later on in life , its not so easy.

[Guest May]

RosFam, I really wish you well. Sad to hear your experience.

My hubby and I are off to go and clean offices now. He is a IT specialist (56) and I am in Finance (44) in Sydney we would make a decent salary but too fast for us. So we clean in Brisbane maybe Perth will prove a little better for us.

[RosFam]

May , thanks for the info, how do you accept what you are doing now to what you are capable of doing ? Why arent you able to find work doing something closer to what you are qualified to do ?

[Toitjie]

gosh...its heartbreaking to read these stories. Rosfam - I hope you find peace and happiness. It cant be easy. I think what Im struggling with now is the stress of realising there is no returning for me..I will finish my notice month in 2 days and there is no going back. We have to go, and reading about the bad experiences (Note: I know there are good too) adds a lot to the stress I already have to deal with.

[RosFam]

The best advice I got from someone while there was that you can only do your best. There will be may people who will reach out to you when there to help , and dont be afraid to take it. Most people are genuine and will help. Take it slow and be easy on yourself, its a marathon not a sprint...unfortunate we realised that a bit late and now we are back to where we started.

[Mara]

I feel for you all, in having to return to RSA because you were so unhappy in Australia. With regard to work, sometimes you have to go through bad jobs to get to a good one. I had three of the worst, till I got my present job, where I have been for 13 years, so it is possible.

I do think, however, that the change in work culture is quite huge, I know it took me a while to get my head around it.

I think too, that where you go and live in Australia can have a huge influence on the pressures you are placed under. I know I will probably be shouted down, but for the greater part, I still think that Brisbane is a holiday destination and that the Queenslanders are not all that welcoming of outsiders. Sydney is so expensive and so huge which multiplies the pressures that you are under. Melbourne to me just fits me nicely, I can work in the metropolitan area and live on the outskirts in a quiet country lifestyle, which suits me down to the ground. I am also sometimes inclined to think that Melbourne and Sydney are the most welcoming to foreigners, especially if you are not of European descent. I love Adelaide, it is pretty laid back, a beautiful city without all the traffic and I could easily live there. I have never been to Perth, except to pass through, so I cannot comment on life there. I love Tasmania and have always found it a very welcoming place.

The great thing in Australia is, that if you do not like one city, there are others that you can try, especially if your job is in a field where there is work available everywhere.

[Renny]

Do you need a tourist visa to visit south africa if you are an aus citizen?

sorry for being way off topic!

[rozellem]

Renny, you dont. Not if the trip is 3 months and under.

Ps.Do remember to take out travel insurance though. Easily forgotten, but SO important.

[Bams]

thank you for sharing, I am sure it took a lot of guts from your side to do.

writing is like medicine, so I hope that this has helped you and will also help others.

good luck on your journey and keep us posted on where you going.

[Eyebrow]

I saw the word "precious" mentioned in one of the posts here before. What exactly does that mean?

The job I was offered was previously filled by someone else. And when I asked why he left, they said "oh, he was a bit too precious". I didn't think much of it, but now I wonder if it is some sort of code that I didn't understand...

[Nev]

I saw the word "precious" mentioned in one of the posts here before. What exactly does that mean?

The job I was offered was previously filled by someone else. And when I asked why he left, they said "oh, he was a bit too precious". I didn't think much of it, but now I wonder if it is some sort of code that I didn't understand...

It means that they are spoilt (As in a spoilt child), self important and/or delicate (in a bad way)

definitely not the south africa meaning

Edited September 26, 2013 by Nev

[McCabes]

I would understand precious as you're taking something too personally - it's precious to you like Golum's precious, and you don't react well to anything re the stuff you're precious about?

I'm so sorry to all of you who've had such bad experiences, and I'm bound to get bashed for this, but why not consider another part of Oz, another company, maybe a smaller company - less stress/pressure? why not consider changing careers even?

Maybe it's just my experience, but a LOT of the stuff mentioned above is what I experienced at my last job which was with a global IT services/solutions company. I got just about all of the stuff mentioned here there, except I will say they were very punctual re meetings and calls, but the place I'm at now is not at all. There's a well understood rule here that you wait 5-10 minutes before assuming people aren't coming. Is it right? No, that's not what I'm trying to say. I'm just trying to say that this probably isn't unique to Australia. It's definitely not the case in my experience.

I went from the global place, where I was doing pretty intense stuff and stressing myself out beyond the edge of reason, to where I am now which career-wise probably wasn't the greatest of moves, but I do less, for more money, get more leave and have a great team of people to work with and am treated like an equal human being. Far better than the global place. It was what I needed at the time and I am SO much happier all around since making the move.

Have to say us saffers have a lot hanging on our ideas of respect. It's a huge thing for us both personally and professionally. I guess the Aussies show it differently or have a different concept around what it entails. Good to know.

Edited September 27, 2013 by McCabes

[Bronwyn&Co]

Finally seeing some balanced views on this forum (and I originally joined almost 8 years ago). I guess eventually reality sets in and the hysteria dies down if you wait long enough

I have the greatest empathy for everyone who is struggling. I called it 'losing my mojo'.

Usually the problem is just being a bit too South African and forthright. If you are willing to look and learn before saying too much in the workplace, it saves a lot of heartache.

[Alida]

It seems a lot like the start of a new relationship. You first only see the outside. Gradually, with time, you get to know each other, get to know some good, some bad. You tiptoe around, trying to find a place of mutual trust on which to build. You cannot rush into a new relationship without consideration of how the other person perceives it. I think a new light is dawning in my mind and I've got a feeling it's a very good one. The Ozzies are faaaaaar more people / relationship orientated in the workplace (and probably on all levels), than South Africans are. They want first thing to see if they can relate to you as a person, long before they worry if you are a genius, a boffin, a world-class professional of any sorts. Only AFTER they connected with you as a person, learned to trust you and like you, THEN they'll consider acknowledging your credentials. It's like with any personal relationship. They want to know how much you care way before they care how much you know.

In South Africa, no one gives a hoot whether you're nice or not, if you can show an impressive CV with truckloads of experience and qualifications, you get the job. In the job environment, you are appreciated for what you can achieve, whether or not you are a difficult person to work. Your job and title is what gets you 'there'.

Not so in OZ, it seems. They first see the human being, and after that first revelation of who you are, they begin to see behind the scenes what you can do and will begin to acknowledge it. Your resumé is just an introduction that you 'might' fit in with like minded people, but you first have to show that you really will be able to earn their personal trust before they will feel safe to let you maybe proceed to a job level where they will feel safe to follow your lead, if your qualifications enables you to do so.

This is a very insightful thread indeed.

[AndreaL]

Being able to work alongside others is a necessity in the workplace here and is usually one of the questions in the interview, i.e. how would you solve such and such a situation, what would you do if, are you a team player.

To hire someone with bad people skills is a nightmare of performance improvement plans, unhappy co-workers etc...................it is far better in non technical occupations, that the employer may hire someone with good communication and people skills but less qualifications (after all you can train them up) than a perfectly resumed bully/manipulator or trouble causer.

The right fit within the company is very important.

[Alida]

I really like this attitude. No wonder the Aussies smile so much and is seen as a happy people. It's because they value relationships even in the workplace. I now have hubby worried that he might not be enough of a peoples-person to really fit in, but hey, we all have to grow in new ways when entering a new environment, so why not ?? It's great to learn this beforehand.

[AndreaL]

My hubby is not the most sociable type Alida, luckily he works in mining and they accept that people in this industry come with their eccentricities, as long as he treats people nicely, he doesn't have to become a social butterfly.

He'll mostly be left alone anyway, depending on industry, there is an unwritten expectation that one proves ones worth by simply getting on with the job.

[patrice]

Finally seeing some balanced views on this forum (and I originally joined almost 8 years ago). I guess eventually reality sets in and the hysteria dies down if you wait long enough

I have the greatest empathy for everyone who is struggling. I called it 'losing my mojo'.

Usually the problem is just being a bit too South African and forthright. If you are willing to look and learn before saying too much in the workplace, it saves a lot of heartache.

Bronwyn - could not agree more :-)

Guys need real help – un-balanced, biased or sensationalistic views only serve to further stress the very people who actually need help

I also agree that we saffers need to chill out, and be prepared to fit in - it took me a while to realise how 'conditioned' I was - it was quite a 'shock' to realise that my 'normal' was in fact rather ab-normal !

We all struggle, but asking, listening, understanding, learning, accepting and being willing to adapt makes fitting in so much easier - when in rome, do as the romans do .......