So. Came back. And...

[hopalong]

So. After 6 years in Oz and getting our citizenship after four of those years, we decided to come back to SA. We packed up all our stuff, and shipped it here.

Been here now for 8 months. And it feels like the worst choice we could have ever made. I won't go into all the detail, but it's basically the same reasons we left, and are the same reasons most people leave.

I'll save you from the "everything is worse than it was 6 years ago in SA" spiel. This is not what this post is about.

The thing is that I am petrified of going back to Oz. Went into depression the first time we moved there. Took me 7 months to find a job. Even though I am highly qualified and experienced with an Aussie masters degree in business, and a decade of management experience.

I experienced so much damn xenophobia and bullying in the workplace that I thought maybe I'm the problem. Maybe I need to just "become more Aussie". But on closer analysis, almost every foreigner in there was treated like crap and bullied. Tried another two companies. And it was pretty much the same thing. I clearly don't have the thick skin that some of my more successful expat acquaintances have who have experienced the same thing but are able to move on quickly.

Even as an Aussie citizen, things didn't change. Being bullied and being front of line for retrenchment.

Hence my trepidation of going back to Melbourne.

I love what Aus gave to us. A sense of safety from crime and the chance to earn good money and bring our children up in a great environment. But I hate what it did to me personally. Taking a few hits on the chin is one thing. But to take them day in and day out kills your spirit and your will to go on. Thank God for my children and wife.

Have any of you ever left and gone back? Did you find it different the second time around?

We do have an option to go to the UK. I love the brits. So easy to get along with and I can identify with them. But starting again with a family in a new country is freaking me out. I guess six years of being broken down will do that to you.

Edited September 17, 2013 by hopalong

[bundyman]

My Second time to Auss " Actually hated it the first time", left and spent 6 years back in SA. Woke up one morning and knew that SA was not for me anymore,been back 18 months. Easier for me now, settled and enjoying what it has to offer me and my family.

Good Luck

[MrsJ]

Wow I just want to say I really feel for you! It sounds like you have been really unlucky with the work situation. Maybe another part of Oz with more expats would be different? Did you travel while there at all and see if you liked any of the other main cities? Otherwise did you manage to make any close friends at all? We haven't got to the Oz part yet so I have no real advice, I just hope you find a place that you belong and can call home.

Hopefully you get some better advice from people who have been in the situation, I just wanted to send some good vibes your way!

[rozellem]

Wow, reading this with interest. My sister and her family are moving back to RSA after 12 years in the UK. I seem to read so many of these yo-yo stories lately.

I dont know what industry you are in and have never lived in Melbourne, but can not relate to your ecperience at all. We have never had a second of xenophobia or bullying in Sydney. If I was you, I would actually go see a professional for a few sessions and try get behind why "they" would target you. Is it real or just from your view point? If it is, how to to handle it, etc. I do feel for you and think the immense pressure you are under, trying to do the right thing for your family, must be unbearable. Proper rock and a hard place stuff.

There are many of us here who have lived in the UK before Aus (me for 11yrs). I would not ho back for love nor money.

[HansaPlease]

Sorry to hear you haven't had great luck so far. Can I ask what industry you're in? Certainly haven't experienced bullying or xenophobia in my almost 7 years in Melbourne, just the odd @rsehole, but hey, that happens everywhere. I wonder if you just had really bad luck.

If you came back to Aus, would you try Melbourne again, or another city?

[Mara]

My heartfelt sympathy as well for the difficult road you have travelled. I am with Hansa, may a different city perhaps be a better choice? Do you perhaps have RSA friends that have moved elsewhere in Australia? Perhaps another city may be an easier place to settle. I do know of a couple who absolutely hated Melbourne, ended up in Perth and loved it. There was another couple who had difficulty finding work in Melbourne and ended up in Adelaide, they say it is the best thing that ever happened to them.

[Joeemm]

Sorry to hear you had such a tough time, can only echo Mara et al's suggestion, try ,no, pick another city, when we first came we where lucky enough to do an LSD and check out Brisbane (East coast) and of course Perth(West Coast). We chose Perth and never looked back :-) There are a few things, like special deals from some Private Health companies and certain business opportunities that seem confined to East Coast, but I just shrug and say O well I'll find a WA version of that. I was also fortunate to be out of work for only about 3 months.

For us our attitude was the key, we never came thinking like, we'll give it a try and go back if we don't like it. We took a conscious decision to make Australia our home. It is hard, with family mostly in SA, worse for some who want to come and can't (yet?) but, now 7 years going on 8, never, ever considered going back! Every year, we get our decision confirmed, again and again.

Good luck and hope to see you back in Australia (better weather than the UK) ;-)

Edited September 18, 2013 by Joeemm

[Sibella]

We have been in Melbourne for just over two years and although my husband hasn't experienced any bullying, he is finding it more difficult to get along with his colleagues here than in South Africa or the UK. Also the market in London was just so much bigger, compared to that Melbourne is tiny so he is struggling with that side of it (he is a management consultant who used to be on a project at all times but here he always waits for the next one to come up). That said he receives good annual increases and bonuses so he can't be doing too badly!

We lived in the UK for 4,5 years and if you are willing to put up with the weather and tiny houses then it's really not too bad. And there is plenty of work. And travelling around Europe is amazing and affordable.

But I couldn't deal with the cold, never ending winters and now with three kids we I can't imagine finding a big enough house to suit. Here we are renting a large 4 bed with a pool for around the same price we paid for a 2 bed apartment (in Guildford though). Also here we can afford private schooling for high school while in the UK private is very expensive.

Good luck, you are doing the right thing and it can only be better!

[hopalong]

Thanks for everyone's thoughts and advice.

Wow, reading this with interest. My sister and her family are moving back to RSA after 12 years in the UK. I seem to read so many of these yo-yo stories lately.

I dont know what industry you are in and have never lived in Melbourne, but can not relate to your ecperience at all. We have never had a second of xenophobia or bullying in Sydney. If I was you, I would actually go see a professional for a few sessions and try get behind why "they" would target you. Is it real or just from your view point? If it is, how to to handle it, etc. I do feel for you and think the immense pressure you are under, trying to do the right thing for your family, must be unbearable. Proper rock and a hard place stuff.

There are many of us here who have lived in the UK before Aus (me for 11yrs). I would not ho back for love nor money.

At my first company, I took all of the issues I was experiencing up with our HR manager and my boss a number of times, but everything fell on deaf ears. My boss decided that I was trying to rock the boat and started to bully me as well. In my other two companies, I didn't even bother when the same type of issues came up.

I also did see a professional when I thought that it has to be an issue with me, that I had a victim mentality. But all I got was "depression related to work relationships related to work stress" or something like that, "which amplified my sense of being victimised". But then how do you explain the other expats who worked in these companies experiencing the same type of thing. Some could just let it all go like water off a duck's back, have a moan and then move on. I struggled with doing that there. It took me a long time to accept that I had depression because I never experienced anything like that working in SA or the UK. The bullying and xenophobia I mean. Just trying to do my job to the best of my ability was a nightmare because I was always being targeted for doing things to a high standard. Tall poppies.

Sorry to hear you haven't had great luck so far. Can I ask what industry you're in? Certainly haven't experienced bullying or xenophobia in my almost 7 years in Melbourne, just the odd @rsehole, but hey, that happens everywhere. I wonder if you just had really bad luck.

If you came back to Aus, would you try Melbourne again, or another city?

I'm a senior IT program manager. I really love Melbourne as a city. We considered Perth when we were still there. We thought that because there were so many Saffers there it may be an easier culture to adjust to. But then we decided to come back here to SA.

When we moved to Melbourne, we moved there with a very positive attitude about the future, and an attitude that we would remain there forever. But also realistically expecting a hard slog. I'm no shrinking violet when it comes to hard work or a challenge, and I didn't expect to move straight into the level role I had here in SA. What I didn't expect was the lack of work ethics and the "f-off to where you came from" attitudes in a professional environment. I was even very aware of being too "south african aggressive" in my work approach, as we're often seen, and that didn't help either.

It's not really a matter of whether we want to leave SA or not. We want to leave because we don't believe it's the right place for us. It's about being a bang broek about experiencing the same thing that I did when we were there. It took its toll on all of us. And I don't want to put my family through that again, seeing their husband and father being reduced to a puddle because of work issues and bullying.

The night we became Aussie citizens, I was "proper proud". I would call myself a proud Aussie because the country allowed us to find a new home and had systems in place that supported us. Things there work. But that pride soon left when it became clear that those born and bred there don't give a toss. You'll always be an outsider.

We have been in Melbourne for just over two years and although my husband hasn't experienced any bullying, he is finding it more difficult to get along with his colleagues here than in South Africa or the UK. Also the market in London was just so much bigger, compared to that Melbourne is tiny so he is struggling with that side of it (he is a management consultant who used to be on a project at all times but here he always waits for the next one to come up). That said he receives good annual increases and bonuses so he can't be doing too badly!

We lived in the UK for 4,5 years and if you are willing to put up with the weather and tiny houses then it's really not too bad. And there is plenty of work. And travelling around Europe is amazing and affordable.

But I couldn't deal with the cold, never ending winters and now with three kids we I can't imagine finding a big enough house to suit. Here we are renting a large 4 bed with a pool for around the same price we paid for a 2 bed apartment (in Guildford though). Also here we can afford private schooling for high school while in the UK private is very expensive.

Good luck, you are doing the right thing and it can only be better!

I found the UK much easier to work in. But that could be because I was single at the time and had less responsibilities to stress about. Funny thing is that the only ones that stuck out like sore thumbs in the UK workplace were the Aussies. They were very difficult to work with. Mainly because of their poor work ethic and the "that's not how we do it in Australia...mate". In fact, they were the same there as they are in Aus.

Don't want this to turn into Aussie bashing because I still count myself as one. I was just wondering if anyone had experienced the same thing. It looks like some have.

Edited September 18, 2013 by hopalong

[Toitjie]

So the "when-we" mentality that Saffas are accused of is not endemic to us only...its seems its more universal. Its actually good to read this.....after reading some posts how we should behave and not do this like SA and not do that like SA, its almost a relief to realise that its not only us who commits faux pas sometimes

"that's not how we do it in Australia...mate".

[hopalong]

So the "when-we" mentality that Saffas are accused of is not endemic to us only...its seems its more universal. Its actually good to read this.....after reading some posts how we should behave and not do this like SA and not do that like SA, its almost a relief to realise that its not only us who commits faux pas sometimes

It's not just us Saffas. In general, I found other expats and Saffas I worked with or socialised with in Aus were very aware of the view that we needed to do it like our host country. But I also found that whenever an expat, me included, had a good idea or innovative approach to an issue, in general instead of being allowed to carry on and implement the solution or idea, it was a case of "don't tell us how to do things here mate. We'll do it our way." I'm almost certain that anyone here that has had the pleasure of working with our Aussie brethren in the UK or another country has experienced the "when we" mentality. So no. Not just us Saffas/Saffa-Aussies. Still. I do know some Aussies, who I count as friends, that have deep experience of living and working in countries other than Aus, that don't fall into this category.

I learnt that you have to package your "suggestions" in pretty bows and gift wrap and let them unpack it for themselves. A few times I've had my work suggestions killed, only to be revived a few days later by an Aussie colleague and accepted by all as that person's.

This is quite cathartic. Talking about this. I hope that it doesn't put people that are still in the visa process off Aus. It really is a wonderful country. But you have to be prepared for the work culture. It's something else. I've worked with many many nationalities on small and large programs, and my least favourite experiences have been with Aussies.

[Mikeleigh]

Do you have children ? Did they fit in to the Aus culture, are they happy to be back in RSA, do they want to go back to Aus ?

[Toitjie]

no not at all..I dont think talking about this is putting anyone off, well not me anyway. I find it interesting to talk about the work ethic and culture and you have raised some points that I suspect very few people would dare say.

But I do think that most south Africans should be fairly wise in adapting in working with different cultures. In my work environment (local govt) most of my colleagues are African and it had taken some adjustments for us to get to know each other's culture and ways of work. My work ethic is very straight forward and some have complained that I am too direct. Interesting facts I have learned is that when I am walking down the hallway and my African colleauge is at the other end but standing still, I should greet first. It took us all a while to get used to each other and the different ways each works but the last few years my team and I have worked nicely and really became friends.

My point to all this is, if we can learn so many different cultures in SA, respect them and command respect in return, the ozzie culture should not be that hard? Well...Im hopefull that I will get it right

[hopalong]

Do you have children ? Did they fit in to the Aus culture, are they happy to be back in RSA, do they want to go back to Aus ?

Two young children. A 4 year old and a 7 year old. Yes they fit in the Aus culture. Our youngest was born there and our oldest spent all her life there from 10 months on. My wife loved the place as well, but hated seeing me deteriorate emotionally and mentally. That's why she was happy to leave Aus. My kids are enjoying SA because they're spending a ton of time with their grandparents nd their cousins. That's what their lives revolve around. They miss the parks and outdoors of Melbourne. But it's not as front of mind as it is for my wife and I. I feel a lot of guilt for being the reason for leaving. Especially because my struggle with the culture seems so very trivial when you think about the bigger issues in life.

[Mikeleigh]

Two young children. A 4 year old and a 7 year old. Yes they fit in the Aus culture. Our youngest was born there and our oldest spent all her life there from 10 months on. My wife loved the place as well, but hated seeing me deteriorate emotionally and mentally. That's why she was happy to leave Aus. My kids are enjoying SA because they're spending a ton of time with their grandparents nd their cousins. That's what their lives revolve around. They miss the parks and outdoors of Melbourne. But it's not as front of mind as it is for my wife and I. I feel a lot of guilt for being the reason for leaving. Especially because my struggle with the culture seems so very trivial when you think about the bigger issues in life.

Well hope you come to terms with everything, hope we can handle the place when it comes to the crunch, will let you know, its easy to give advice from the outside, we just need to get there and hope we have the substance when needed, good luck and let the dust settle......

[hopalong]

Well hope you come to terms with everything, hope we can handle the place when it comes to the crunch, will let you know, its easy to give advice from the outside, we just need to get there and hope we have the substance when needed, good luck and let the dust settle......

From 6 years in Aus and seeing many people moving there, it was always the kids that adapt easiest. It's the parents that found it a struggle. So if you and your spouse are able to work it out, then I think you guys will love life there.

Seeing that your profile on the side shows you love the outdoors, I think that its a no-brainer. Just take a lot of sun tan lotion with you.

[B007]

Have been reading all the posts and hope you are doing better by now. It is all good points to look at and keep in consideration when approaching the work market in AU as we are use to life in SA and adapted to our new inviroment. I will for shore keep this in mind when I am approaching the job market that side. Please let us know in due time if you would consider returning to AU cheers.

[GottaGo]

Hopalong,

I really feel for you as you are obviously doing a lot of soul searching. If it wasn't right before, it won't ever feel right the 2nd time. It wasn't you it is them, a different culture and way of being. We were eventually SO despondent about facing a future in Oz we knew we had to leave and have just made the move to the UK after 5 years in Oz and my only regret is not having made the move sooner.

I would definitely line up a job first though. My husband found one on a jUK job site and was interviewed telephonically and then via Skype.

We are so glad to be here! I could never, ever, ever go back to Australia. Ever.

PS: It's expensive moving countries so often BUT things have gone really smoothly for us and it has been very stress free. But as I said we had a job lined up. Then I found a holiday let. Our son got into near by school. The rest is just about cash.

Edited September 19, 2013 by GottaGo

[PrissyMissy]

Hi Hopalong - I feel for you, would love to know where you go in the future.

We were unhappy in NZ - but also waited to get citizenship - I know all about the depression, it really brings you down and everyone around you. We lived in Auckland and then moved to Tauranga, it did not get any better - same culture, same ethics.

We thought for a second about going back to SA, but with two young girls - the thought of them being raped and murdered in their beds worried me more than anything else.

So we decided to give Australia a try, been enjoying Brisbane so far - just a pity about the IT job market. My husband has been so depressed since he started this junior control role. I am very concerned for his well being and it definitely does affect our family life. My husband has never been one to be down in the dumps and it is sad for me to watch what he is becoming since arriving in OZ.

Goodluck and hope you find peace and make a decision soon. I know it is hard on the kids, as mine - especially my 10 year old is unhappy that we might need to relocate again.

[DanieR]

We lived in Australia for 6 years in WA as well as the beautiful Sunshine Coast in Queensland. We came back to South Africa a year ago to sell our business, with the intention to then return to Australia.

I have to admit that it is only now that we did the full circle that I realise it is really a 50/50 situation, even when crime enters the equation. We are all very aware of the challenges in SA, but in Australia things are grey and not so evident or transparent.

I suppose the big question is what makes you happy. Someone mentioned somewhere that in life you have to juggle the balls of faith, family, friends, health and work. True joy requires all these balls to be flying! That is not so easy in a foreign country if you do not make the move very early in life.

As I said we enjoyed our Australian adventure and meeting great people along the way, but I suppose home will always be home and right now we feel like staying on a bit longer!

[Mikeleigh]

Wonder what the stats are for people returning ? Vs staying, taking out the emotional wellbeing factor...........

[Toitjie]

There were some stats posted a year or 2 ago from immi...and roughly 1 % make their way back to SA, if I remember correctly. It was something like 6% SA's leaving but of that only a few actually returned to SA, the rest went to other countries.

[hopalong]

Thanks for your sharing everyone. It helps me keep in mind that I'm not the only one expreiencing this. But now I need to make a deiciosn.

Hi Hopalong - I feel for you, would love to know where you go in the future.

We were unhappy in NZ - but also waited to get citizenship - I know all about the depression, it really brings you down and everyone around you. We lived in Auckland and then moved to Tauranga, it did not get any better - same culture, same ethics.

We thought for a second about going back to SA, but with two young girls - the thought of them being raped and murdered in their beds worried me more than anything else.

So we decided to give Australia a try, been enjoying Brisbane so far - just a pity about the IT job market. My husband has been so depressed since he started this junior control role. I am very concerned for his well being and it definitely does affect our family life. My husband has never been one to be down in the dumps and it is sad for me to watch what he is becoming since arriving in OZ.

Goodluck and hope you find peace and make a decision soon. I know it is hard on the kids, as mine - especially my 10 year old is unhappy that we might need to relocate again.

I can relate to what your husband is going through. And I can relate to being concerned for his well being and the impact on your family. I felt very helpless as I was deteriorating, because I was very aware of how my mental and emotional state was impacting my family. And that made things worse. Feeling helpless just made me more aware, which made me feel more helpless, and so on. The professional counseling help I got didn't help either.

I also had to start from the bottom again. But most distressing was having my years of experience treated like it was worthless. My self-worth deteriorated badly. I was a program director in SA, with multinational IT program experience, working with service providers and clients in SA, UK, Germany and the USA. In Aus, I could only enter at the equivalent of a middle manager level in my field, because they refused to acknowledge my previous experience. I was told that "none of that matters here mate. We do things differently". Even at a middle manager level, I was not allowed to sign off for any capital or operational expenditure in my own programs, even though Aussies at lower levels than me had signing authority, with less time in the company and very questionable ethics in budget allocation. Add the bullying to the equation, and things just went from worse to worse. It was pure discrimination.

I truly wish I could say to you that it got better for me, to offer you a bit of light at the end of the tunnel. But it would be a lie. Perhaps someone else can give you a brighter outlook, because there are many people out there that managed to turn thigns around. I couldn't. I hope your husband can.

We lived in Australia for 6 years in WA as well as the beautiful Sunshine Coast in Queensland. We came back to South Africa a year ago to sell our business, with the intention to then return to Australia.

I have to admit that it is only now that we did the full circle that I realise it is really a 50/50 situation, even when crime enters the equation. We are all very aware of the challenges in SA, but in Australia things are grey and not so evident or transparent.

I suppose the big question is what makes you happy. Someone mentioned somewhere that in life you have to juggle the balls of faith, family, friends, health and work. True joy requires all these balls to be flying! That is not so easy in a foreign country if you do not make the move very early in life.

As I said we enjoyed our Australian adventure and meeting great people along the way, but I suppose home will always be home and right now we feel like staying on a bit longer!

I've got to learn how to juggle a bit better. I struggle with that. But I think you're spot on. Mostly, my health gets impacted.

Hopalong,

I really feel for you as you are obviously doing a lot of soul searching. If it wasn't right before, it won't ever feel right the 2nd time. It wasn't you it is them, a different culture and way of being. We were eventually SO despondent about facing a future in Oz we knew we had to leave and have just made the move to the UK after 5 years in Oz and my only regret is not having made the move sooner.

I would definitely line up a job first though. My husband found one on a jUK job site and was interviewed telephonically and then via Skype.

We are so glad to be here! I could never, ever, ever go back to Australia. Ever.

PS: It's expensive moving countries so often BUT things have gone really smoothly for us and it has been very stress free. But as I said we had a job lined up. Then I found a holiday let. Our son got into near by school. The rest is just about cash.

Thanks GottaGo. I felt like a failure because I couldn't make it work. Deep down, my values system is not the same as theirs, I know that. And I'm acutely aware that a number of people here will take that very personally and get angry. But quite honestly I don't care. Values system made the most impact. I get what you're saying. And I need to accept that it's just not for me, and because it's not for me, my family is impacted negatively. Not because of my selfishness but because my values are just so different. I can't give that part of me up.

[elleneo]

Someone once told me that when you finally get a job I oz you eat a large serve of humble pie! What they forgot to mention is that for dessert it's..you guessed it! another serving of humble pie!

It's is especially true for professionals and those in management positions. Hubby is currently Ina management position, also I IT, having started as a junior developer 4 years ago! He was by no means a junior when we arrived, but it paid the bills and taught him the work culture ie how to play the game the oz way.

It sounds to me like people at work rubbed you up the wrong way. Think of your humble pie- eating as a means to an end ..in the working world the toes you step on today are connected to the ass you have to kiss tomorrow!..that ass could very well be yours if you can hold down that pie

[hopalong]

Someone once told me that when you finally get a job I oz you eat a large serve of humble pie! What they forgot to mention is that for dessert it's..you guessed it! another serving of humble pie!

It's is especially true for professionals and those in management positions. Hubby is currently Ina management position, also I IT, having started as a junior developer 4 years ago! He was by no means a junior when we arrived, but it paid the bills and taught him the work culture ie how to play the game the oz way.

It sounds to me like people at work rubbed you up the wrong way. Think of your humble pie- eating as a means to an end ..in the working world the toes you step on today are connected to the ass you have to kiss tomorrow!..that ass could very well be yours if you can hold down that pie

The notion of having to eat humble pie presumes that I was arrogant in my approach to my work. I was not. It's insulting. It reminds me of the juvenile Aussie comments of being "precious" about something because you have a strong view about something and aren't willing to adopt groupthink or go with the crowd, because you stand up for your belief and your values and your experience.

If by rubbing me up the wrong way because other expat colleagues and I were discriminated and bullied, then damn right they rubbed me up the wrong way. And as I mentioned in previous posts, I went in there with eyes wide open and knowing that I was entering a culture that was different to what I was used to. I had worked with Aussies in the UK and I knew full well what to expect. But bullying and condescending attitudes in three different companies was not one of them. Please don't pontificate to me or anyone else who has experienced the same thing about our need to eat humble pie.

[Toitjie]

Hopalong - I think what you went through is atrocious. No-one should be bullied, and the notion that people are bullied because they are foreigners is immature, but sadly it happens.

I have spoken a couple of times of my friend in Canberra, but never really about her work experiences. She is a very dynamic lady and worked herself to HR Manager in no time. But in the beginning, there were also one or two employees at the uni who were nasty to her.

The breaking point came when she said something work related and the guy (her boss) told her to go f**k herself. What she then did was got up, started packing up her handbag....he asked her what she was doing, and she said she is doing what he said she should do, going home to go ***** herself. I apologize for the crudeness of this conversation. But this really happened, and when she did that, everything changed. This guy realised that should she report him he would be in serious trouble and the situation was defused. But to get there, she took some serious hammering.

After that, the relationship got much better. There will always be bullies, wherever we go, every country has them and there is a fine balance of integrating into a new culture but also standing your ground on certain issues.