Warning

[Preacher]

Hey Preacher

The reason why swearing isn't encouraged, is because we are all sober (hopefully) & civilised

I'm sure that if you tone down the aggression, you might get a bit of support for your opinion.

As for your comment, about putting people off a 457, I think that prospective immigrants should hear all sides & make their own decision ... as it is, considering the amount of emotion & aggression you have in your post, they're going to discount your opinion to that of a raving lunatic.

Cheers

Jan

Its not civilised? Well I say the same thing about people who dont wipe their arses with toilet paper but I dont want to generalise now and call all Muslims uncivilised. Just like you cannot judge a person by what they wear, you cannot judge a person by the way they speak. Take the rant how you will.

@Rete

Way to cite one article as a reason for the entire countries economic downfall. I mean sheesh, the telegraph. ANZ and NAS wrote off bad debt like every other bank has had to do. How is this not to be expected with the sub prime crisis? Its the reason why you have seen such heavy volumes in bank stocks all over the world, including here. The fact that you dont have government stepping in like they have done in the US and UK should speak volumes. I know it makes for boring reporting, but fundementals are way more important then British rhetoric I am afraid.

Bottom line, this country relies on Asia. Now if the US goes into a borderline depression it will filter down to aus in a few years time. Certainly not now. The US is saying they are in a recession, and national unemployment is at 5.7% Yep, the people be starving.

Compare that to SA, where official unemployment is sitting at 27%, interest rates are sky high and inflation is double digit. But please, do post more articles like this. Cant have SA's coming over here. This place is going bust next week

PS: Aus wants a weaker dollar. This is actually a good thing long term because its a commodity exporter. We are not the UK, not matter how much that editor wishes Australia shared similar fundementals

Edited August 3, 2008 by Preacher

[JanCPT]

National economies (& even international economies) go through cyclical troughs & peaks in order to grow (consider the troughs as periods of rest or catch up, where the economy stabilises it's larger base, in order to support further growth)

Under normal circumstances, these troughs aren't as extreme as recessions, but they are still a period of unrest in the economy where, traditionally, unemployment rises

Over the last 10 - 15 years, the world's economy has gone through substantial growth, without any significant trough (if any)

Recently (about 2 - 3 years ago) your more vulnerable economies stated showing signs of entering the trough cycle & have subsequently entered the trough & this has spread to the larger economies

Even the stability of the Chinese economy has been hit, because they are reliant on exports, & as international consumption decreases, the chinese will start feeling the pinch & have to restructure their economy to accomodate the decreased demand (i.e. people will be laid off & production restructured in order to down size & economise)

The Australian economy is not self sustaining & is reliant on business with other countries &, as these other countries feel the pinch, Australia will feel it through decreased demand for their products.

Considering also that the Australian economy was probably pushed up by a lot of emotional investment in the growth years, where people thought that there would be no end to the growth .... & now suddenly face reality (this kind of investor is usually the first to pull their money out, which will have a significant effect on the currency - as we can currently see with the AU$)

Considering Bob's experience in Australia, I would say that he has a fair idea of what will happen when the Aussies have to start tightening their belts, cause this is probably not the first trough in the economy that he has experienced & it would make sense for the Aussies to temporarily change immigration policy while they go through this period of stabilising their economy ... that's not to say that they won't revert to the initial policy once the economy has stabilised - but in the interim period, immigration would not be encouraged

You can also not use the continuation substantial developments as an indicator that the economy is entering a trogh period, cause these projects would have been planned and implemented during the peak period & it would be financially insane to stop half way through implementation.

The same goes for the Mc Donalds sponsor, during the growth period they need workers & initiate a policy of sponsorships .... they will drop this as soon as the local workers come back - short term thing.

In order to make an assesment, you would need to look at the macro indicators, such as national employment statistics, exports, property prices etc .... & all of these indicate that the country is entering a trough stage

.... & when the economy enters a trough, people start losing jobs .... & the goverment would temporarily change immigration policy until the economy stabilises

Cheers

Jan

PS - Preacher, although we are all adults & shouldn't be scarred for life with your swearing, is it really neccessary in every post?

[Avatar]

Just like you cannot judge a person by what they wear, you cannot judge a person by the way they speak. Take the rant how you will.

People do judge others by how they treat others, and how they speak to others. I think it is therefore better to attack the idea and not the person, and agree to disagree. Calling people names causes hurt and often they will never respect or trust that other person again. Respect garners respect.

[louw.pretorius]

I agree with Preacher about the financial outlook.

I agree with Preacher that having an opinion is a Good Thing - as long as its informed

I do not agree with Preachers' aggresion - irritation is ok but aggression is not(on this forum)

PS. Could the hosts please take this up with Preacher in private instead of grandstanding it here in open forum.

[JDJoburg]

Bob, I honestly can't see why certain people are frothing at the mouth because of your post.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe your message boils down to the following:

1. The Australian economy is slowing down (correct, it is.)

2. A slowing economy will probably result in less demand for skilled labour. (yes, that's correct)

3. If you don't have permanent residence, your prospects of staying in the country are less secure, especially if the economy is slowing. (yes, that's logical)

4. It would be wise, under these circumstances, to apply for permanent residence as soon as possible, to be certain of staying in Aus (yes, that makes sense)

These are valid points, and something that 457 visa applicants should be aware of, even if the real impact of the slowing economy is difficult to judge at this stage. But a risk it certainly is.

I cannot see why some forumites are accusing you of "trying to convince people not to come to Australia". You made a valid point about a risk that exists, and I believe your reasoning is sound. In any event, if someone is dof (that's "dim" in Afrikaans, Bob) enough to make their emigration decision based on one guy's post (or another's hysterical response) then they probably deserve their lot in life.

Kudos for not "defending" yourself. No defence required.

Edited August 3, 2008 by JDJoburg

[Pretorius]

Bob,

Thank you for your concern and advice, it is much appreciated if not well received by everyone.

Although we are leaving SA due to crime and for the future of our kids, I believe it is good to have realistic expectations for our new life in Aus.

Dries

[Springbok]

If Bob feels that the economy is headed for an extreme slowdown he is very misinformed. If he is misinformed to that degree, perhaps its better that he provides no advice at all with regards to economics.

What exactly was Bob trying to achieve with that post? WHAT?

Chill mate. Bob merely tried to say the PR visa is a safer option than the 457, and that you cannot be sent back to S.A. should Australia experience a serious economic setback. Those on a 457 visa who have the means, should "insure" themselves and convert to a PR visa if possible. That's it. No scaremongering, just giving honest advice which anyone is free to use or ignore.

You made an excellent post about the realities of Australia, but why so aggressive towards Bob? The man is entitled to his opinion like everyone else. And while he may not be an economist (hell, even THEY can't get it right!), he's a born and bred Aussie who's lived through many economic cycles in this country. That's more than you or I or anyone else on this forum can say. I'm sure very few people on this forum have been in Australia for longer than 10 years - Bob is a veteran of almost 60 years, and it's often worthwhile to listen to the observations of laymen, devoid of academic theories. I work in investment management and consider myself much better qualified in this area than Bob, but I respect his age and life experience in this country and take his comments to heart, even if I may not agree with the extent of it.

While today's economic climate is certainly different from that of the 1970s, history has a funny way of repeating itself. Oil and gold are but two examples; I remember how those who predicted oil above $50 and gold above $500 in 2002 were branded as heretics. And here we are at $130/barrel and $920/oz respectively today... As George Santayana said, "those who fail to learn from history, are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past".

Here's a reminder of how wrong the leaders in government can be about an economy. Note the comments soon after the US stockmarket commenced the 1929 crash with a 40% correction. The bottom wasn't reached until 1932, another 80% below the initial crash:

[Voortrekker]

I often find myself not agreeing with Bob’s well-meant views; they are sometimes a bit too conservative for me. And I don’t see "us" Aussies turn against immigrants. However, when it comes to idiot-spotting, I think most of us agree that we don’t appreciate a screaming sermon from the pulpit. Another “gain†for TOF? Preacher, I have been reading Sarah Britton’s stuff as well. Fun read, but she has only been in Oz for a few months herself.

As for the economic outlook, there is probably a bit of truth on both sides. But impov, forecasting the economy is a bit like forecasting the stock market or the weather. For almost any pov you can probably find an “analysts†or “forecaster†or newspaper that will support that pov.

I am no economist, but below is what worries me for the future. How does all of that affect visas and immigrants? I don’t really know. No scare-mongering, but I think it is always wise to keep your eyes and your options open - especially with a visa that ties you to one particular employer. (Once I’ve been in that situation in the USA during a dry spell, so I know from experience. Then I landed in New Zealand (from the USA) as a PR immigrant - two weeks after the 1987 stock market crash (and that wasn’t a big one). Overnight the private-sector job-market in Auckland had dried up, and I had to change my plans totally. (Moved to Wellington and finally landed a semi-govt contract). If I could predict the crash/ recession, would I still have gone? Yes of course.)

It seems to me that the Australian economy is quite robust right now. Has been so for some years now. Many of the forecasts look good. However, there are a lot of unknowns and uncharted territory ahead.

Currently I live in Canada. Economy is somewhat similar – natural resources (incl agriculture) and services, though Canada has manufacturing as well. The Canadian economy is even more robust that Australia’s – huge trade surplus. Our dollar is now on par with the USA. The west is booming; they cannot find enough workers for the jobs available. The Americans are buying our oil, the Chinese our other resources, and life is great.

However, in the eastern industrial heartland, the economy is slowing down. The Americans are not buying our manufactured goods (cars etc) as much anymore, and factory workers are being laid off. The USA is sneezing, and we are worried about catching a cold. I am sure they are feeling the chill in the Chinese factories as well. The “R†(recession) word and the “I†(inflation) word gets mentioned more and more – definitely in the USA, but even in Europe.

Generally, I am an optimist of nature, but at least three uncertain “global†factors worry me personally (not in any order, and excluding the ongoing American wars in Asia).

1) The mortgage crisis in the USA is predicted to become much worse, and this is already affecting banks worldwide incl Australian banks. And the USA (who is driving the world-economy) is in debt to other countries over their eye-balls. Sometimes it looks like a house of cards from the side.

2) Climate change is already affecting the Australian economy (esp agriculture). Here is Canada, the forest industry of the west is being decimated by it, affecting valuable exports. (For years now it has not been cold enough to kill some pest, which keeps spreading, killing forests by the thousands of hectares). However, Canada does not have the fresh water problems of Australia, and global warming may benefit agriculture. But think about the Murray-Darling basin, drought, and agriculture in Australia.

3) The growing oil crises. What if the oil price reaches $200 a barrel or more? Will it still be worthwhile to manufacture in and import trinkets from China? Will they still buy our resources if the US is not buying their goods? A CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corp) program recently revealed that the average grocery item in Canada (incl fruit & veg) is transported about 2,000km. Will this be sustainable in the future? Recently I have seen several programs on both the BBC and CBC about how the oil crisis can change the entire global economy as we know it now.

Mind you, all of the above will affect South Africa negatively as well. In summary, uncertain times ahead everywhere and it pays to be careful and prepared, esp when you don't have PR. But then again, we all know that.

Edited August 3, 2008 by Coconut Ball

[Biltongboer]

I tell you what. Why dont you all kiss my arse? This little clique is half the reason why so many members wanted to up and leave in the first place. I came back to an inbox bombarded with messages to join a new forum they were trying to start. Why is that?

So why dont you join them? They love this sort of thing there.

Back to the issue: I know these are politicians talking, but these same politicians were the driving force behind the recent increase in yearly migrant allowance figures.

Some of their recent decisions, just to illustrate what I'm saying:

Increase in minimum salaries for migrants

The subclass457 integrity review

The recent speech by the Secretary at the Government Policy Evolution Conference, 29 July 2008, in which he says:

Legislation is planned for introduction to Parliament later this year to help prevent the exploitation of 457 visa holders. The legislation will include among other things, provision for expanded powers to monitor and investigate non-compliance with the program, and introduce a framework for punitive penalties for employers found to be in breach of their undertakings.

So, the governement is actually improving measures in order to protect migrants, not the reverse.

That said, one of the few things that can moderate the effect of population ageing is strategically planned migration, as pointed out in the Intergenerational Reports. New arrivals to Australia are, on average, significantly younger than the resident population.

Rudd's latests statements:

Mr Rudd today said it was clear that growth had slowed, adding that the economic slow-down had been forecast in the Federal Government's budget papers.

But, he said, the Government was well placed to deal with the challenges confronting the economy.

"We believe that we have a strong economic course of action to take Australia through these difficult global economic times," Mr Rudd told the Nine Network.

Mr Rudd said the Government's ability to deal with the prospect of a slowing economy was anchored in a $22 billion budget surplus.

"The nation needs a clear direction," he said.

"That clear direction has to be based on responsible economic management and responsible economic management remains anchored in a $22 billion budget surplus - a buffer for the future."

Just keep one thing in mind, and this was Bob's message: Your employer could end up to be under financial pressure, and could decide to let you go. You will then have 28 days in which to find a new job. It's a risk. No one says it will happen. But it could. Just make sure you understand the whole picture.

I will also apply for PR as soon as possible. That was my intension in any case. I am going, because I wanna stay there forever. Most of us are. But you have to take note of the risks. As with any investment, the greater the risk, the greater the rewards.

[LeeInOz]

Preacher may be a little heavy handed but Bob's post is "scare mongerish".

I find it intriuging that someone whois not in Australia but reads a bit of stuff on the net can leap to their own conclusions about what some one else says.

I know of a few families that have been forced to return back to South Africa because the 457 sponsored person loses their job. This in the boom town of Mackay.

All Bob was sayiny is that things are changing, so take the sure option if you can. Many can only come in on 457, so they will do this.

Preacher is not a LITTLE heavy handed but just plain rude. There are enough rude Saffers here making life difficult.

Probably for a South African faced with litttle or no options due to BEE coming here with some risk is not too bad.

Australia is a fairly conservative country so it will be interesting to see how the burger flipping 457 works out.

many come here on 457 just because it is fast and seems cheaper, but in the long term is expensive becuase of the lack of medicare, Centrelink, in some states schooling costs as well as the higher tax on temp residents. Then after struggling through all the deteriorating South African paperwork must do some of it over.

Good post Bob

Edited August 3, 2008 by LeeInOz

[Sam]

I think most of the people here are missing the point. Read certain posts again and you'll see certain people on this thread are here for one purpose only: to cause trouble. Nothing else.

It grieves me greatly that there are people out there who take pleasure in ruining good things in life. This forum is such a labour of love.

[Sam]

many come here on 457 just because it is fast and seems cheaper, but in the long term is expensive becuase of the lack of medicare, Centrelink, in some states schooling costs as well as the higher tax on temp residents. Then after struggling through all the deteriorating South African paperwork must do some of it over.

Well said, LeeInOz. That is exactly what I've been trying to convey too.

[MannyT]

Bob, I honestly can't see why certain people are frothing at the mouth because of your post.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe your message boils down to the following:

1. The Australian economy is slowing down (correct, it is.)

2. A slowing economy will probably result in less demand for skilled labour. (yes, that's correct)

3. If you don't have permanent residence, your prospects of staying in the country are less secure, especially if the economy is slowing. (yes, that's logical)

4. It would be wise, under these circumstances, to apply for permanent residence as soon as possible, to be certain of staying in Aus (yes, that makes sense)

These are valid points, and something that 457 visa applicants should be aware of, even if the real impact of the slowing economy is difficult to judge at this stage. But a risk it certainly is.

I cannot see why some forumites are accusing you of "trying to convince people not to come to Australia". You made a valid point about a risk that exists, and I believe your reasoning is sound. In any event, if someone is dof (that's "dim" in Afrikaans, Bob) enough to make their emigration decision based on one guy's post (or another's hysterical response) then they probably deserve their lot in life.

Kudos for not "defending" yourself. No defence required.

Hey Danie I was wondering how long it would take you and Charl (Springbok) enter the fray. It is always nice to get an intelligent and rational comment on peoples post/comments. My understanding of Bob's post is very similar to yours Danie and I could also relate to some of Springbok's comments. Prof Ross Fitgerald was saying much the same thing this morning on the Sunrise Show on Channel 7.

People are free to formulate their own opinion on the current and future state of the Australian economy and the possible repercussions on their lives.

Opinions are however a bit like backsides, everybody has one, and there are obviously some people with big backsides out there.

I have noticed that the people that often post controversial posts or adopt a belligerent approach to other people posts/comments more often than not don't publish their name and Australian location on their personal profile, interesting.

Enjoy!

Manny

Edited August 5, 2008 by MannyT

[Riekie]

I tell you what. Why don't you all kiss my arse? This little clique is half the reason why so many members wanted to up and leave in the first place. I came back to an inbox bombarded with messages to join a new forum they were trying to start. Why is that?

Oi, Preacher, stop digging... You may need the forum and all the "arse kissing" forumites down the track. If you disagree with Bob (or anyone else on the forum) you certainly have the right, but the way you're going about making your point is only distracting from it. Would you have made these comments to Bob in a face-to-face conversation with him? Probably not. Think before you post - your "anger" is really not warranted.

I've met Bob on a few occasions and although I do no agree with his post 100%, I understand where he's coming from and although you may think that he was trying to discourage ppl to emigrate, he was only trying to bring some reality to the 457 hype and in fact encouraging ppl to rather go the PR route if they could. I once asked Bob why he was so active on a forum for emigrating Saffers as he clearly has nothing to benefit or gain by spending his time, providing very helpful & informative info about a wide range of topics to a bunch of ppl he has no obligation to. His answer: I can see what is happening in South Africa and I feel I need to help. As simple as that. Not for 1 second would I think that Bob would have made that post to prevent Saffers from emigrating to Australia, as it would not only contradict what he told me, but also all the contributions he has made on this forum since it's conception. Bob is an honest, down-to-earth Aussie bloke with a heart as big as the ocean and I would not question his integrity or intent.

We don't have to agree with everything Bob (or anyone else) say on the forum - that's why everything is open for discussion. It was simply his interpretation & opinion based on his knowledge & experience as an Aussie. Most of what we all post on the forum are based on our personal knowledge & experience as emigrants/immigrants and nothing is gospel. No need for anyone to revert to name-calling & swearing if we have another take on things.

To answer the 457 question: you don't have to wait 2 years before you apply for PR, but that is often your only option. Also, sponsoring companies are very cautious to sponsor PR before 2 years had passed - they do not want to go through all the cost & effort of getting someone to Aus, only to loose them to the opposition/competition once they have PR. So, if you have the opportunity to come to Aus on PR vs 457, then go the PR route. If 457 is your only way, then go for it! Just remember that it IS a temporary visa and if the paw-paw hits the fan, you have to leave within 28 days - I've witnessed it, it does happen!

[Gean]

To get back to the topic.........

To me a visa is a visa, and although they work differently and have different purposes its still something that surely can be taken away whether you're on a 119 (PR) or a 457. As Bob says, Australians will inevitable look after their own..........

Think about it, it makes economic sense that if the proverbial "brown stuff" hits the fan the 119's ( although a PR visa in itself ) can just as well be the first to go even before a 457. They are a much bigger drain on the economy because of the "free"stuff like Medicare & schooling etc.

Would you rather keep the immigrant paying tax but also he's own medicals and schooling or would you send the guy packing living off the fat of the land so to speak.

You still only have a permanent residence visa...........youre not a citizen.

As a immigrant in any country ( not just Oz ) there is always a chance of being booted out

Regards

[JDJoburg]

To get back to the topic.........

To me a visa is a visa, and although they work differently and have different purposes its still something that surely can be taken away whether you're on a 119 (PR) or a 457. As Bob says, Australians will inevitable look after their own..........

Think about it, it makes economic sense that if the proverbial "brown stuff" hits the fan the 119's ( although a PR visa in itself ) can just as well be the first to go even before a 457. They are a much bigger drain on the economy because of the "free"stuff like Medicare & schooling etc.

Would you rather keep the immigrant paying tax but also he's own medicals and schooling or would you send the guy packing living off the fat of the land so to speak.

You still only have a permanent residence visa...........youre not a citizen.

As a immigrant in any country ( not just Oz ) there is always a chance of being booted out

Regards

Nope, there's a fundamental difference between being granted permanent residence and only having temporary residence. That's why it's called "permanent". That's also why permanent residence is more difficult to get - they can't just send you packing when they tire of you.

It would be an outrage if Australia grants people "permanent residence" and then chases them away whenever times are tough. Always nice chatting to you Gean, but I reckon your reasoning is flawed here

[Gean]

Nope, there's a fundamental difference between being granted permanent residence and only having temporary residence. That's why it's called "permanent". That's also why permanent residence is more difficult to get - they can't just send you packing when they tire of you.

It would be an outrage if Australia grants people "permanent residence" and then chases them away whenever times are tough. Always nice chatting to you Gean, but I reckon your reasoning is flawed here

Thanks Danie, you actually gave me the answer I was hoping for

Regards

[WAM]

I'm posting this warning on the website to all prospective South Africans who are thinking of making Australia their home.

Make sure you don't get stuck with a temporary work visa . . . . usually called a 457 . . . . because there are some really worrying signs on the horizon for Australia's economy in the near to medium term.

Applying for a permanent visa takes longer because checks have to be more stringent. With a temp visa, you can always be sent back . . . . end of any problem from Australia's point of view.

However, although it may be quicker and easier to get into Australia on a temporary visa, you must be here for a certain period before you're able to apply for Permanency and this all takes time.

Time is what you don't have.

If the economy takes a king hit, which some analysts are now forecasting, then the wheels of Australian industry will grind to a halt or go very slowly.

Australia simply won't need the thousands of migrants needed to keep the wheels turning.

An inevitable rise in unemployment among the Australia workforce, many Aussies will be wondering what migrants are doing at jobs that they could be doing. They are voters. The government listens to voters . . . . not to temporary workers in Australia.

Thousands of temporary workers could easily find themselves flying back home, away from Australia, depending on the severity of any economic downturn.

O.K. . . . . . I've stated what some pundits are now saying in the news, here in Australia, so be smart and apply for a permanent visa, unless you only want to be here in Australia temporarily.

Hi there,

Those with permanent visas that are going to Perth thought you may be interested in this:

http://www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?Men...ContentID=88106

Looks good for buying houses, maybe we can reduce our property price in SA and pack for Perth.

What do you say JD ?

WAM

[MelG]

Hey Bob,

Thanks for the heads up!

your pal, Mel

Edited August 4, 2008 by MelG

[SHIRLS]

WOW have read through this entire post and can see it is indeed a hot topic.Both sides of the debate have their valid points I guess Have not visited this forum for a while as I was insulted for far less than this and a PM sent to me suggesting I leave.It inspires me however that this heated debate has been allowed to continue because immigration is a hot topic and should be vented as such (perhaps the personal attacks were a tad overdone)none the less maybe the powers that be have realised a genuine need to allow ppl to have an opinion at last instead of the multitude of quote "arsewipes"and yes men around.

Do not know Bob so would not personally wish to insult him intentionally,however,I find it a bit odd that someone in one breath could "rub ones nose" in the fact that he is a retiree at 56?and travels extensively,would actually then post a doom and gloom scaremongering post(albeit founded/unfounded) to his SA "friends".His interest seems a bit warped to me IMHO.

A month ago this would have been in the cooler long before now so what has changed mods?

[Eva]

Nope, there's a fundamental difference between being granted permanent residence and only having temporary residence. That's why it's called "permanent". That's also why permanent residence is more difficult to get - they can't just send you packing when they tire of you.

It would be an outrage if Australia grants people "permanent residence" and then chases them away whenever times are tough. Always nice chatting to you Gean, but I reckon your reasoning is flawed here

Thank God... I was starting to stress there for a minute!! Sigh of relief.

[JDJoburg]

Hi there,

Those with permanent visas that are going to Perth thought you may be interested in this:

http://www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?Men...ContentID=88106

Looks good for buying houses, maybe we can reduce our property price in SA and pack for Perth.

What do you say JD ?

WAM

Go for it - I'll gladly claim the credit if it turns out well for you. Just remember that us financial people tend to be much better at explaining the past than at predicting the future.

Seriously though, I won't buy property until I've lived in Aus for a quite a while, regardless of where property prices seem to be going at the moment. With property, I believe that you need to be there, sniff the air, talk to the people, see the lay of the land, put your ear on the ground etc etc. That's just me, and I'm not saying it's the best way to go. Just be sensible, and remember that you're entering a whole new world and that you can (as an immigrant starting over, unless you're already rich!) hardly afford to make an expensive mistake with the capital that you've brought with you...

[JDJoburg]

Do not know Bob so would not personally wish to insult him intentionally,however,I find it a bit odd that someone in one breath could "rub ones nose" in the fact that he is a retiree at 56?and travels extensively,

You don't know him personally, and wouldn't want to insult him intentionally, yet you're happy to say that he's rubbing your nose in something and imply that he has dodgy motives. Wow, he's a retiree at 56, what a show-off.

I wonder what your post would've looked like if you did intend to insult him.

Now, I don't mean to insult you (since I don't know you personally) but do you know the meaning of "Play the ball, not the man"? That draconian rule that those fascist mods are always harping on about?

Thanks for playing!

[Bob]

Reading the Australian Financial Review on weekends (which is a wrap-up of the week's financial situation here in Australia), there are loads of articles about the Australian economy and how it's going generally.

The Australian economy is a pretty robust piece of machinery, but doesn't run in isolation to the rest of the world and wise folk take that into account, not only in emigrating, but in buying a house, for instance.

When some other parts of the world are looking a bit shaky, it's not unwise to assume it will have some effect on us in Australia.

Loads and loads of white South Africans are looking for opportunities and a future for their kids in Australia, and it would be a shame to see any get sent back.

That would be devestating for anyone, especially if South Africa is going thro tough times as well as Australia.

They may end up going back to unemployment and no house back home.

A permanent visa . . . . even a RSMS 119 Sponsored visa . . . . allows you to stay. Guaranteed.

You're in!

You've got your foot in the door and it can't be shut on you.

If times are tough in Australia, you can stick around and bask in the luxury of having all the government benefits available to everyone else in Australia. . . . even citizenship when your qualifying period is up!

If you rock up with a temporary visa, and times get tough, the company may "down size" (lay off workers) and not be willing to sponsor you.

You may not be able to get anyone else to sponsor you.

When your visa runs out, what's going to happen to someone on a temporary work visa?

You can take this advice however you wish, but I know what sort of visa I'd like to have in my passport, especially if I had a family and were all settled into the Australian way of life after a while.

There's no way I'd even like to think that I might possibly be in a situation where I'm likely to be sent back.

I wouldn't be happy till I had that permanent visa . . . . . . for my family's sake, as well as my own.

Hopefully, Australia will weather any storm in the next couple of years, despite the United States, Britain and New Zealand starting to slow right down economically.

Since I don't have a crystal ball and can't forecast the future I'd be playing the game conservatively and covering myself.

It's as simple as that!

[Voortrekker]

Do not know Bob so would not personally wish to insult him intentionally,however,I find it a bit odd that someone in one breath could "rub ones nose" in the fact that he is a retiree at 56?and travels extensively,would actually then post a doom and gloom scaremongering post(albeit founded/unfounded) to his SA "friends".His interest seems a bit warped to me IMHO.

Talking about scaremongering. I'm with JDJoburg on this, you're missing the ball. What is it to you what Bob chooses to do with his life? And how does that have something to do with his opinions? Imo, its his business. In this regard, I would just call him ... lucky.