Average middle class people in SA

[Guest natalie3]

I think this thread is gonna head for the cooler...im sticking around to see what happens!

[saffer2]

You reap what you sow - how about she cut those less fortunate than herself some slack! Her opening line doesn't deserve being cut any slack!!

Wow - all Sambo's opening line said was "I am starting to get a bit irked by this topic - to be perfectly honest". That's it. That is hardly the most controversial thing to say.

[CapeTownToolNut]

Hell, if that is an average salary then I wonder where I fit in the picture?

Could it be a difference in perspectives?

Oh Ja! If 300-400 K is an average salary middle class salary per person,then that's also what's causing our inflation.

It's bloated.

I would say:(take home pay we're talking)

1) R 2500 and lower per month = poor working class.

2) R 4000 per month = working class.

3) R 6000 per month = upper working class

4) R 9000 per month = lower middle class.........and now it starts jumping perversely.

5) R 15000 per month = middle class

6) R 22000 per month = upper middle class

7) R 30000 per month = lower wealthy class

8) R 60000 per month = wealthy class

9) and then they need a tax lawyer after this

[Guest natalie3]

Again..i think it all depends on the personal definition of wealthy, middle-class, poor..

[Gizmo]

I think we are all going off-topic here.

This is not about who has how much and which class you are in!

The question was that if you were going over with very little, would you be fine?

I think this is a very valid question coming from SA, as we live in a country with little/no welfare.

If something happens to your spouse or yourself in SA, you will be in dire straits, unless you have very generous relatives.

Coming from this type of country, it is normal to feel this way if you are starting from nothing.

But, reading Bobs and some of the others comment I think you can rest assured that you will be fine.

[ronfire]

I think we are all going off-topic here.

This is not about who has how much and which class you are in!

The question was that if you were going over with very little, would you be fine?

I think this is a very valid question coming from SA, as we live in a country with little/no welfare.

If something happens to your spouse or yourself in SA, you will be in dire straits, unless you have very generous relatives.

Coming from this type of country, it is normal to feel this way if you are starting from nothing.

But, reading Bobs and some of the others comment I think you can rest assured that you will be fine.

I agree. This is now getting to be personal. Let's all step back, take a deep breath (ahhh! Just smell that smog filling your lungs!), choke and cough violently, wipe the tears away, and then start again.........calmly and rationally, shall we?

It's Friday, people!! Chill out!!

[OzMania]

Wealthy....poor...middle class..... I think its all bullshit!

If you know what your priorities are you know how to handle your finances you could live the life that you feel comfortable with!

This is not a bragging session, but I think it's important that you understand why I say this....

I've been working for my own money from the age of 13! I started from scratch and now between my husband and I we earn in excess of R120k per month! I have no debt other than my house...don't buy anything for ourselves if we don't need it and have no unneccessary or elobarate spending habits! We put all our extra money into our house.

Friends of ours earn roughly the same. The wife is a BIG spender. They do weekends away at least twice a month. Drive new cars every year...... that sort of thing! They pay what they need to on their bond....and pay one credit card with another!

I used to judge them, because I thought their priorities are all screwed up! Then after my father's murder I realized.....if I die tomorrow and the man at the pearly gates ask me...."What did you do with your life"...I'm going to say...."I paid off my bond" Heeehaaa! What a freaking fabulous response!

What are my friends going to say....."I went to Egypt, climbed Everest, challenged the might Zambezi....enjoyed every moment of my life!"

Who gives a sh*t how much you earn!

ENJOY YOUR LIFE!! DECIDE WHAT YOUR PRIORITIES ARE AND MAKE THE MEMORIES LAST!

[ronfire]

Wealthy....poor...middle class..... I think its all bullshit!

If you know what your priorities are you know how to handle your finances you could live the life that you feel comfortable with!

This is not a bragging session, but I think it's important that you understand why I say this....

I've been working for my own money from the age of 13! I started from scratch and now between my husband and I we earn in excess of R120k per month! I have no debt other than my house...don't buy anything for ourselves if we don't need it and have no unneccessary or elobarate spending habits! We put all our extra money into our house.

Friends of ours earn roughly the same. The wife is a BIG spender. They do weekends away at least twice a month. Drive new cars every year...... that sort of thing! They pay what they need to on their bond....and pay one credit card with another!

I used to judge them, because I thought their priorities are all screwed up! Then after my father's murder I realized.....if I die tomorrow and the man at the pearly gates ask me...."What did you do with your life"...I'm going to say...."I paid off my bond" Heeehaaa! What a freaking fabulous response!

What are my friends going to say....."I went to Egypt, climbed Everest, challenged the might Zambezi....enjoyed every moment of my life!"

Who gives a sh*t how much you earn!

ENJOY YOUR LIFE!! DECIDE WHAT YOUR PRIORITIES ARE AND MAKE THE MEMORIES LAST!

Spot on!

[PalmsZA]

Hi Guys

Toolnut: if you earn around R300000 you will bring home after tax, pension, med aid etc. about R17000 a month! That puts you nicely into the middle class CAT.

[Guest Bronwyn]

The State of the Australian Middle Class, published by The Australia Institute, October 2007 (Not too long and very interesting!)

http://www.tai.org.au/documents/downloads/DP98.pdf

Definition of a snob as per Wikipedia:-

A snob, guilty of snobbery, is a person who adopts the worldview that some people are inherently inferior to him/her for any one of a variety of reasons including real or supposed intellect, wealth, education, ancestry, etc.[citation needed] Often, the form of snobbery reflects the offending individual's socio-economic background. For example, a common snobbery of the affluent is the affectation that wealth is either the cause or result of superiority, or both as in the case of privileged children. However, a form of snobbery can be adopted by someone not a part of that group; Pseudo-intellectual is a type of snob. Such a snob imitates the manners, adopts the world-view and affects the lifestyle of a social class of people to which he or she aspires, but does not yet belong, and to which he or she may never belong.

Definition of reverse snobbery as per Wikipedia:-

Reverse snobbery is the phenomenon of looking unfavourably on perceived social elites, effectively the opposite of snobbery. For example, a person with a small black-and-white television looking down on someone who owns a plasma television. Members of certain subcultures — such as the redneck, rocker, skinhead, greaser, heavy metal, punk and hip hop culture — may have such tendencies. They often view upper-class people as sheltered or spoiled.

[Preacher]

Hi Guys

Toolnut: if you earn around R300000 you will bring home after tax, pension, med aid etc. about R17000 a month! That puts you nicely into the middle class CAT.

An average hom in Gauteng is R1 million. So you need to earn double that to get a bond for an average home.

Sorry, 300 000 is no where near middle class anymore.

[Dugong]

People are reading to much into the numbers floating around here - e.g. R300k

Guys & Gals, On this site there was a poll that asked what people earn in RSA and what they will be earning in Aus. It got several hits and I got the numbers from that post (at a point in time) - 80% of people on this site that responded earned between R300k and R400k and the same proporrtion were looking to earn between $50k and $80k in Aus. I have no idea if these are the real averages, but it seems to be what people on the site are earning. The same poll said a few earned over R600k and that there were a few under R100k. So, thats quite a range. The percentages have probably changed as more people have voted.

Does it represent the economics of RSA??? Hell no, I guess that since we have more labourers and miners in this country that the average wage would be more like R50k to R60k - some of the economists on this site will probably have a better idea that this. It does represent the average on this site, as voted by the people on this site.

Is it good or bad? Right or wronge? Lets not get bent out of shape about who earns what. If you earn more than this, great and if you earn less, thats also fine. It takes all kinds to make life go around. Those that have shouldn't belittle those that dont and those that don't shouldn't be envious of those that do.

Where you are in life will determine your perspective - a $100 hair do may be ridiculous money to one family (they cut their own hair) and to anyother its small change - they are millionairs. The important thing here is that you are happy with where you are in life, because trying to be some-one else will just make you unhappy!!! Each of us must take responsibility for where we are in life and for the decissions we have taken to get us here - good or bad, right or wrong

my 2 cents

The important thing is that we have all decided to move to Aus. Some will live in a tent on the outskirts of town and others on the top of the hill in a 20 bedroom palace. However, as long as you are happy with your decission, then thats all the matters. Living in a tent or palace in south africa V the same in Aus is no contest in my mind. Does it really matter which of us is in the tent and which in the palace?

The topic URL is: http://www.saaustralia.org/index.php?showtopic=11575&hl=

At seems that more people have voted so the averages on the site now appear to be

60% between $60k and $110k

45% between R300k an R400k

Edited March 14, 2008 by Lion King

[Antoinette]

So if i understand correcctly.

Anyone that earns less than you and your husband are not honest and hardworking?

Good luck going to Oz.

Spot on! Being honest and working hard has made me "rich" but not in monetary terms.

Edited March 14, 2008 by Antoinette

[Dreams]

Feels like some people hijacked this topic to brag about their income

[Bob]

Some folks are moving in different circles to me.

I'm fortunate that I don't hang out with people who see that you must live in one part of Adelaide if you belong to a particular profession or trade.

The bloke living next to me, when we rented my brother-in-law's property on coming back from Tasmania in 1994, was a local GP in Mt Barker.

I'm going on a 4WD trip with a surgeon later on this year.

I couldn't care if he were a plumber. The main thing is that his car's in good nick and I don't need to pull him over lots of sand dunes to get him home. He's just one of the blokes on the trip and will be treated as such in our 4WD club.

You'll always get "elitist" schools that were set up decades ago to cater for society's top dogs.

My kids went to private schools, not out of elitism, but to reinforce the Christian beliefs that are fundamental to my family here.

My wife, Ginnie, teaches in the Lutheran Church private school system in a country town (Murray Bridge) with lots of poor families. As a remedial teacher she gets the slow learners and kids that come from disadvantaged backgrounds. She loves her work so much, I'm having a job to get her to quit and live the "good life" with me in retirement.

One of the basic reasons I hear people sending their kids to a private school is that they want their kids to have a Christian education and values impressed on them.

Of course, you'll always get some folk who send their kids off to top private schools, pay top dollar each year for their kids's education and hope that the school pushes them thro the system and spits them out the other end as a professional.

However, lots of private schools are out there to "serve" the kids, to teach them values and morals that society is shifting away from.

Australia was the only country that began as a penal colony. Every colony, that eventually became a State, had convicts (except for South Australia).

Many Australians have a family background that includes a convict or two.

In the 1800s, these convicts were considered the scum of British society.

If there were a "black sheep" in the family, he would be sent off to Australia to stop any embarrassment to the family name back home in England or Scotland.

How can your everyday Australian claim to be something "special" when he / she has a background like that?

All the other Aussies will laugh at him at social circles and mimic him / her.

Surely you've heard of the "tall poppy syndrome" in Australia?

Anyone who gets too high and proud and claims to be an Australian is laughed at in Australia and is rubbished by Aussies.

Either Australia had convicts or it didn't.

Either many Australians are descended from these convicts or they are not.

Either convicts and "black sheep" were considered to be the lowest of the low, or they weren't.

If the bloke next to me, having a great grand father who was sent to Australia in leg irons, tries to set himself up as someone special in town, I'd think what is the big deal about this bloke? What makes him better than the rest of us?

Again, I'll state that I never hear Australians talking among themselves and about themselves using the words "middle class" or "upper class". You'll always have some Australians earning more than others, have a windfall on the shares and are "living the life of Reilly" for a while, but they don't use that terminology.

If they do, it's new to me. They must be sitting around a different campfire than mine.

I have three old mates that I like to see often.

Two are millionaires (one a multi-millionaire)

We sit around and just talk like old mates. They don't live in any particular part of Adelaide, even though they could buy anywhere in town. One drives a 1991 Mazda, the other a 2003 Toyota Prius.

They don't seem to care what car they drive.

It doesn't matter to them. They could go and buy the latest Maserati with cash if they wanted . . . . . but . . . . they don't want!

I give them a lift occasionally in my old "run about" (1995 Mitsubishi van). They don't seem embarrassed to be seen in it when we pull up at the shopping centre to go for a coffee, or if they are, I'm not getting the signals cos I'm on an entirely different wavelength.

I remember them when we were all broke, all sitting around smoking and drinking at the back of our "digs", all surfing together down Boomer Beach lots of weekends in summertime.

We had to scrounge thro the rubbish bins to get the soft drink cans out to cash in (at 5c each) so that we had petrol money to get us back to Adelaide from the beach (80 kms).

We used to roll old dog ends when we couldn't afford another packet of tobacco till payday.

I remember these guys back then, and even though they are millionaires today, they are not snobs.

I know them.

They are Australians.

They'll talk to anyone round the barbie, drink a beer with anyone and share a laugh with anyone.

[Dreams]

Wow, thanks for that insight Bob. Spot on again.

Lots of Saffers are trying very hard to show off and let other people know how important they are. Quick to tell you about all the things they buy, what it costs and their holidays and big houses, cars, job and qualifications. And in the mean time it is all on the credit card and the bank owns all their bling-bling. Maybe it is also because of the new RSA - lots of people in high posts who do not deserve to be there. They are only there because of AA, BEE or window dressing. Sad, very sad. And then they get these big bonusses like the Eishkom managers are going to get again.

OK, I must say you will find rich Saffers who don't mind to have friends with a lower income.

I have more respect for people who can live according to their income and do not have lots of debt.

[colton]

I have more respect for people who can live according to their income and do not have lots of debt.

[Guest Bronwyn]

Of course, you'll always get some folk who send their kids off to top private schools, pay top dollar each year for their kids's education and hope that the school pushes them thro the system and spits them out the other end as a professional.

However, lots of private schools are out there to "serve" the kids, to teach them values and morals that society is shifting away from.

Hell yeah! What's bad about that guys? (not picking on you Bob, I just think you summed it up) I went to a school where a lot of the kids spent the weekend sniffing benzine and getting smashed. Some were preggers in Matric. I got my first job at 15 and started working full-time at 17. We also took bottles to the shops so we could afford to buy a half-loaf of bread when I started working. When we bought our first house, rates went up so high we had to eat at my dad's house every night. I drove a 1979 Beetle then, and one day I got a R60 fine and I cried my eyes out because I didn't know how I was going to pay it! For the past 20 years I have been trying to compete in a professional environment with no degree, because I was the eldest of 5 kids and there were no clothes floating around in our house, let alone degrees!

So what if I can now spend $100 on my hair? I don't smoke. Other people spend that on smokes. So what if I drive around in a nice car now? Do I need other Saffers to look down their nose at me because they have an old car? So what if my family can go on holiday? I think its an important part of my children's education. We are all about our kids. If that means I have to sell my car and pay the school fees I will do it gladly. My point is we have different PRIORITIES, and rightly so.

Just because we had the money to pay for our Visa here, it was still very expensive. We sold furniture. We stressed about the exchange rate. We stressed about every $1 packet of spaghetti in the beginning! We all do!

I know an Aussie mom here in Adelaide who works as a shop assistant, a half hour's drive from her house. ALL her salary goes on sending her son the same private school we are talking about somewhere else on the thread. She gets up every morning and drives that half hour, and works - even on a Sunday, just so she can pay the school fees. They rent a house in the East but can't afford to buy, and they are both over 40. They rent there because it is close to the school.

I don't think this thread was a bragging session. We all know how hard you have to try to succeed in South Africa, especially now. I think it's time we were ALL a little more tolerant of each other. There is a lot of reverse snobbism going on here too, and it's just as bad as plain old snobbism! I can not find anyone who said on this thread that they thought they were better than anyone else because they earn more money. Where was this written???

To dislike someone for living in an expensive area is just as low as disliking someone for living in a poorer area! Or what?

And my last point is:- If you guys think there are no social classes in Australia than no, you aren't sitting around the same campfire. I worked in a Private Bank where you have to have several millions just to bank there. My clients were Medicos, so specialists, orthodontists, surgeons etc. They refused to have 'Private Bank' printed on their cheque books (because they don't want anyone to know their wealth), but they were the worst snobs I have ever met. They might drive Ford Falcons, but they look at you as if you are a piece of you-know-what. I am talking old Adelaide money here. People who have streets and buildings with the same name as them. People who manage their investments. If their child gets a job in, say, a bank, they consider them a huge embarrassment. I resigned in under a year because I hated it all so much.

I have never seen more limo's anywhere than in Adelaide, in fact I saw one last night. People drive Maseratis here, and last night we also saw a million dollar Rolls (I think it was) in Chinatown.

Just my $2 worth (why undervalue yourself all the time? )

PS. I forgot to say - I agree with Colton's post above. She is spot on. Which is actually the point of the whole thread. Sjoe!

Edited March 15, 2008 by Bronwyn

[Annette]

Bronwyn, your first post in this thread was brilliant. And as so often with brilliant posts, was of course completely ignored as it didn't serve the purpose of a lot of the posters. The second one I will not respond to in too much detail because that will send this excellent discussion into a completely different direction, which it does not need to go in, except to say this: think about this: would you have been the same person, with the same drive to succeed, the same determination to make something of your life, had you had a different background, gone to a different school? Maybe, maybe not...

I can't see anywhere where anyone says that having or not having money makes them any better? The only strongly emotive responses I can see in this thread are the knee-jerk reactions from those who feel some need to defend the fact that they have more than others or make certain choices in life. Why be so extremely defensive if it shouldn't matter? Methinks the lady doth protest too much

Who cares? The whole point is, that we shouldn't judge anyone, regardless. The ideal is to be blind to anything other than how a person treats those around them and whether they are an asset to their community or not, for whatever reason ...

I feel sorry for the OP and yes, I do realise that I'm perpetuating the whole problem

[Guest Bronwyn]

The only strongly emotive responses I can see in this thread are the knee-jerk reactions from those who feel some need to defend the fact that they have more than others or make certain choices in life. Why be so extremely defensive if it shouldn't matter? Methinks the lady doth protest too much

Hi again

Hopefully my response wasn't knee-jerk, because I actually took a couple of days to think about it before I posted. On the other hand, I was surprised at the strong knee-jerk responses that came from people worried about earning less than the so-called average. Some people just jumped on the bull and started riding it, and go so defensive and upset, I couldn't figure it out. It just goes to show how different people perceive different topics and interpret them, depending on their own life experiences.

Anyway, I like a good debate, and at the end of the day we will all learn things from one another that can only make us more tolerant people. I like your last point of respecting people for how they treat others, I really do agree with that one.

Bye 4 now.

Edited March 15, 2008 by Bronwyn

[Gizmo]

Feels like some people hijacked this topic to brag about their income

Yup. Nouveau Riche syndrome.

Seems we can't make it back onto topic. This thread is not about boasting or justifying our incomes or degrees of success.

Aus has such a strict entry system for a very good reason. They don't want people who will burden their society. If you make it in, you will make it in Aus.

You will make it work - even if your standard of living drops a bit for a while. I doubt any of us are going there for big money - we are all going there for a better future for ourselves and our families. This future is not measured in terms of money, but in terms of safety, opportunity, education, and peace of mind.

It is completely natural to be apprehensive about the unknown, moving to a new country will have its challenges, but Aus will be what you make of it.

Edited March 15, 2008 by Gizmo

[Gummy Bear]

Ok nou wil ek ook iets se!

Wat my die meeste afsit op die forum is mense wat net hier land.Dan word daar oor n sekere topic gepraat en dan kom daar uit die bloute n @%$ in die drinkwater en begin met :ons het nou die huis verkoop en AL die geld is oorbetaal na Oz.So kyk mense ons het geld.[minderwaarheids plompleks]Ai die geld gaan ook hier opraak hoor!!Wat is dan volgende.Na dit skielik word die motors genoem wat hul hier gekoop het.Seker hul kon dit nie in SA bekostig nie.Flip niemand stel belang in hoe blink is wie en wat nie!!Moeg dat sulke mense n mens se neus daar moet indruk Hier het mense in einde Des. hierna toe getrek wat ons gedink het nice mense.Kom van Pretoria af.Maar toe vroulief begin met GELD,MOTORS,HUIS,GROTER,BETER,BESTE hoeveel van dit en hoeveel van dat kyk toe kry ek en my man n pyn net daar.Vir mekaar gekyk en gedink nee dankie gaan maar verby!Sit maar soos n kraai op jou molshoop.Soek nie sulke vriende nie.Gats kan net oor dit gesels.Rgte Kompitisie vreeks.Kry gou n gly in sulke mense.Kom half oor met die houding van almal skuld ons iets en is beter as die ander een.Gats halo enige mens kan oorkom so maklik is dit!!!So niks spesial aan sulke mense nie.

In OZ tel dit net vir sekere groepe mense wel nie vir ons groep nie dankie.Daar is meer in die lewe om voor te lewe en dankbaar voor te wees. Sulke mense eindig altyd alleen op!Nie vriende nie niks net hulself.Ek vertel nie vir almal hoeveel geld ons het en wat ek ry of my man ry nie en hoe groot ons huis is en dat dit ons eie is nie.Gaan op jou kniee en se dankie vir die Liewe vader wat n mens het en waardeer dit.

Gats as ek dit doen sal ek gou terug gegooi word in my doppie en my fortein sal vir my vertel word.

Dis als aards goed wat agter bly.

Smartie jul sal ok wees.Relax en kom geniet Oz soos ons.

Ok nou voel ek ook beter.

Edited March 15, 2008 by Gummy Bear

[andrea d]

Ek het ook heeltyd gesit en wonder of ek iets moet se. Wel, ek dink 90% van ons is daar of oppad as gevolg van geweld, regering, toekoms, 2010, skole ens ens. So in hierdie opsig het ons almal min of meer iets in gemeen. Ons waai nie hier om mooier, beter, groter huise of karre OF leliker, slegter en kleiner huise of karre te besit nie maar om 'n baie beter kwalitetslewe saam met ons familie (en vriende wat daar sal wees) te geniet. Hoekom die bohaai oor geld. Van ons gaan baie sukkel (in die begin soos ek verstaan) en ander is bevoorreg genoeg om dit gemaklik te he van die begin af. Die punt is hetsy jy baie of min geld het, wat is jou rede om in Ozzie te bly? Los die "geld issues" in Suid Afrika, ons moet eerder almal daai kant saamstaan. Is dit tog nie wat die Here van ons verwag nie, om mekaar by te staan en te help ongeag van jou finansiele omstandighede. Die aanvanklike doel van die "topic" was om mense gerus te stel om te sien of hulle dit sal maak daar. Dit klink my almal sal. Maak nie saak hoe of wat nie, ons is ALMAL hardwerkend en het ingebore "iets" wat jou nie sal laat faal nie. Veral vir die wat kinders het. Ek het, so dis hoekom ek dit se.

Dis maar net wat ek dink.

Lekker dag verder vir julle.

Andrea D

[KMG]

Thanks to all who wrote inspiring an encouraging words. We really enjoyed the firs part of this thread. We feel so much better about going over there and "surviving".

I have realized how lucky we are to have such stunning friends here in South Africa. They are all from different income brackets and all have class. Class has nothing to do with money. I look forward to making friends with people from all walks of life once we are over in Oz.

PS. This forum is for all and one should be allowed to write about your achievement whether it be money, cars, homes, career, triumphs etc. Some people will benefit from these threads just like the middle income earners did from this one. If you have a problem with what others have or do not have, THE PROBLEM IS YOURS!

Cheers to all!

KMG

Edited March 15, 2008 by KMG

[Navigator]

I never had a problem with what others have or don't have - I do have a problem with the attitude of some...