SA vs Aus: The Truth Please

[Shellfish]

Well, Globally - Aus is ranked 14th in the world for education and SA is ranked 75th - one above Ghana. I know where I'd pick...(not that I am happy with 14th, Australia also need to get their act together).

My mother in law is a teacher at government school in Johannesburg, there are 50 kids to a class, half of them don't have chairs - people in SA need to get their heads out of sand if they think that your average S'African is living the middle class dream.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-32608772

Edited July 24, 2015 by Shellfish

[BrendanH]

Hi,

A completely different question on the same topic - How are customer service levels in Aus?

Maybe I have bad luck but in most of my interactions here in Cape Town service providers just seem like they don't give a stuff. Everyone from the accounts department at the private school my kid attends, to the waitress at the local restaurant, to our insurance company, even the HR department at work just gets it wrong and doesn't care. It has gotten to the point where I dread dealing with companies because I know they are just going to stress me out.

Please tell me the culture in Aus is a little better.

[Mara]

I have always found customer service to be of an excellent standard, it does not mean that they do not get it wrong sometimes, but for the most part they are most willing to help you, especially if it is face to face.

The only thing that does get to me, is when the company has outsourced their telephone customer service to elsewhere in the world and you cannot understand a word of what they are saying. At times like these I just insist on speaking to an English speaking person, they will usually oblige.

[BrendanH]

I have always found customer service to be of an excellent standard, it does not mean that they do not get it wrong sometimes, but for the most part they are most willing to help you, especially if it is face to face.

The only thing that does get to me, is when the company has outsourced their telephone customer service to elsewhere in the world and you cannot understand a word of what they are saying. At times like these I just insist on speaking to an English speaking person, they will usually oblige.

That is reassuring. I really don't mind people making mistakes in general but when it becomes the norm it becomes frustrating.

[HansaPlease]

I think that customer service can often vary between the two countries in different sectors because of the dynamics.

In SA, the food service and tourism industry depends largely on tips, so that is often a bit of a carrot to provide better service. In Aus, in a restaurant or bar, tips are generally not expected, so service can sometimes be lacking.

In terms of government agencies, banks, etc on the other hand - it's generally fantastic in Aus - you don't have that apathetic person on the other side of the counter who's just looking forward to their next break!

That said - restaurant service in SA always used to be really good, but, I don't know if it was bad luck, but on my resent trip to SA last month, I had only 1 decent experience through the whole trip.

This was in hotels, restaurants and pubs mostly, but for example - Ocean Basket used to be my favourite - but in my last 3 trips there, both the food and service was absolute rubbish. In 3 different restaurants in 3 different parts of the country?! Hayibo!

[Kanniewagnie]

BAndH, prepared to be blown away with super-efficiency.

Shellfish, I agree about the ranking and about choosing Australia above South-Africa.

I also want to clarify my previous statement about people having to think again about quality of education in South-Africa.

I guess most of this forumite's children who started schooling in South Africa attended either a private school or a school partially run by a Body Corporate where some of the teachers are paid by this BC with a lot of influence and legal 'say'.

These schools' standard of education is generally very high and I can honestly say that they do not have to stand back one bit.

If your kid started kindy or Year 1 in Ozzyland, then you do not have a recent 'South-Africa' school experience.

My son did 'Grade 2' in SA and he is now repeating 'Year 2' in Perth. So it is easy for me to compare specifically this grade's work content and teaching method.

My daughter did not repeat a year and I am not so involved in her classroom. She is telling me, though, that, according to her, they don't work so hard in the class and that the method of learning is made more fun, by doing card games and baking cookies in maths class (to explane measuring). They also do an online 'matheletics' which they seem to enjoy. The kids who want to, can take part in Numero competitions in the library from time to time.

They also place a lot more emphasis on physical exersize. The school sports are not so competitive. They focus on good sportmanship, enjoying the game and not only on winning. If you want to, you can enroll in private football / netball / other clubs. My children enjoy this part of school very much.

The assembly each second Thursday is also not closely what we were used to comparing to the more formal 'school opening' on Mondays. It is run by the children - from announcements to music and stage decoration. Each class get a turn to do something on stage. Some dress up as minions and are just silly. Some have a message about healthy eating and some read poems, after which certificates of merits are handed out. Lastly, the Head Master will have a short message. Assembly is always attended by parents.

So from an academical view, being different does not mean it is worse, or better. I now honestly know our school in Pretoria was of exceptionally good standard.

[BrendanH]

BAndH, prepared to be blown away with super-efficiency.

My son did 'Grade 2' in SA and he is now repeating 'Year 2' in Perth. So it is easy for me to compare specifically this grade's work content and teaching method.

Hi, can you possibly tell me more about the expectations of Year 2? My son is finishing grade 1 this year and will possibly be starting year 2 in Aus in January. Is the level of reading and mathematics vastly different or is it possible to more or less just slot in. Liam will be turning 7 next month, is this about the right age to be starting Year 2 next year?

[AFreshStart]

Just adding my voice to Kanniewagnie's, she's pretty much summed up our experience thus far with school here in NSW, except we have weekly assemblies, but the format is largely the same.

We embrace the changes and feel it's far more rounded than the 'traditional' way we were brought up with. I have a fair bit of insight into education in South Africa as my Father-in-law has just retired from being a Professor in education at one of SA's top universities and was council on educational policy in South Africa; as well as writing some of my high school text books which was daunting when my wife and I first started dating 16 years ago

Outcomes based education failed in South Africa and is being phased out from my understanding. I think the approach they are taking here makes them more resilient and well-rounded, the emphasis being on understanding over content.

The headmaster just threw our son's year a "100-days of Kindy" celebration this week, parents coming in and sitting in on lessons, activities, sharing cake and just chatting about education as an intro to our upcoming education week that involves parents and children in various school activities.

My son's teacher gave a speech to the parents and explained that these changes in approach to education are to make them "independent thinkers", to encourage them to think "outside the box". She went on and shared that as parents many of us are in jobs that didn't exist 10 years ago: social media, cloud based services & the internet of you etc.

What is it going to look like in 10-20 years for our children? They can't teach this if they can't see what the future will look like, but they can train them to be independent thinkers to allow them to adapt to the unknown.

Just something to think about.

Cheers

Matt

Edited July 24, 2015 by AFreshStart

[Kanniewagnie]

BAndH, Are you heading to WA? It seems to me the schools are different from state to state.

Let me also empasize that a lot is depending on your child too. If your kid does not struggle to follow instructions and work independently, he'll do better. They do a lot of group work here.

The classroom sometimes feels 'chaotic', because this specific classroom (and I understand it is not like this in other schools) is divided by a bookshelve - so the teacher on the other side of the bookshelve does not do the same topic and when the teacher on this side explain ie 'adjectives', the children on the other side are folding paper planes, with a noisy background like this, my child looses focus and drift away. Sometimes there are 3 groups on this side of the bookshelve who do 3 different activities and after 15 minutes, they have to rotate. Some of the kids have to leave an unfinished task to scurry to the next task and I can see it leaves them feeling anxious.

Some tasks (like writing a letter or doing a comprehension test) remain unfinished without the teacher ever giving the child a chance to complete.

The books are not sent home for the parents to see (like I was used to).

These scenarios are just in this specific school/ class and your experience in another may differ.

I can send you the maths curriculum, which may give you an idea. PM me your e-mail address and I'll scan it for you, although it might also be available on the Dept of Edu's website - I didn't check yet.

[Kanniewagnie]

To add... The teacher will evaluate your child upon arrival. If there are areas where he might need attention, you may ask for an individual learning programme - you will have to do extra activities at home to get him up to the desired level. I asked for an appointment with the school's Head Master, where I raised my concerns. They were very accomodating, but you also have to be very involved to get that 'extra' bit of attention.

They were not keen on keeping him in Year 2, but I kept pushing, because the Year 3 teacher told me he could see my son is 'lost' with the Year 3 content. It took 3 weeks, but after an appointment with the School Psychologist, they agreed. The French teacher also 'backed me up' and in the end all worked out. I told my son that I bought us some time to get this Red Language 'onder die knie'and I hope he'll make it.

I expected him to struggle, because the signs were clear in South Africa already that he needs 'more' than the average child. On the other hand, my daughter is doing great in Year 5. They wanted to put her in Year 6, but luckily she was put in a 'split class' - another new concept to us, so I convinced the HM that emotionally, it will help her to come to terms with the English terms and vocabulary and to feel less pressured. I also crinched at the thought of her going to high school next year, to adapt to a new school again in less than a year, so again the School Psychologist agreed with the over protective Mother... Yeay!

[Shellfish]

Also to let you know - there are two types of classroom setups in Aus that I don't believe they have in SA - I am speaking from a Vic point so other states may be different.

Composite classes - they often like to mix grades according to ability so for example at my son's school they have two classes of grade three, two classes of grade 4 and one composite which is a mix of grade three and four. This is to extend the advanced kids in grade three who can stand the challenge of learning the next level and possibly help kids year 4 who maybe could do with a little repetition from the previous year. Personally, I think this is good - let's face it, we grew up in an age where if you were 10 years old you should be at this level and know x,y,z - we obviously know better now. Kids learn at different rates, It's a fact of life.

Open plan classes - this is where they have one big room made up of different classes who are supposed to engage and socialise with one another to encourage learning.

This is don't like. I find it noisy, difficult to concentrate and as far as I can tell, it's just job sharing for teachers. My son's school often do it for the first term of school and then go back to typical learning for the remainder of the year. As I said, I don't agree with it and if it was done for any longer than a term, I would make a fuss.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Shellfish

[BrendanH]

Also to let you know - there are two types of classroom setups in Aus that I don't believe they have in SA - I am speaking from a Vic point so other states may be different.

Composite classes - they often like to mix grades according to ability so for example at my son's school they have two classes of grade three, two classes of grade 4 and one composite which is a mix of grade three and four. This is to extend the advanced kids in grade three who can stand the challenge of learning the next level and possibly help kids year 4 who maybe could do with a little repetition from the previous year. Personally, I think this is good - let's face it, we grew up in an age where if you were 10 years old you should be at this level and know x,y,z - we obviously know better now. Kids learn at different rates, It's a fact of life.

Open plan classes - this is where they have one big room made up of different classes who are supposed to engage and socialise with one another to encourage learning.

This is don't like. I find it noisy, difficult to concentrate and as far as I can tell, it's just job sharing for teachers. My son's school often do it for the first term of school and then go back to typical learning for the remainder of the year. As I said, I don't agree with it and if it was done for any longer than a term, I would make a fuss.

When I was in Prestbury Primary School in Pietermaritzburg they had composite classes as well. In standard 4 I was in the 4/5 class and from a pupils point of view it was great. I tended to be very bored in class and that helped a lot with that. The theory of being mixed with a younger grade was different. It was the top of the class who got mixed with the younger standard because they needed less intervention and could do with 50% less teaching attention.

[AFreshStart]

While in keeping with education, this might be worth a watch, it's called "The Challenge Of Change".

Every 5-years Australia compiles what's known as "The Intergenerational Report", the data is used to project the future and used by economists, business and government.

You can download the IGR to read through yourself, but this short video does a great job of giving the highlights package.

With the mining boom coming to an end it's pretty clear that the future wealth depends on the export of knowledge, particularly in IT (which employs almost as many people as the mining sector) as well as financial services, exporting this wealth into the Asian marketplace.

If we look as some of the significant global advances Australia has made it's been in biotech and IT.

I think this in part is why there is a push in education to create "free thinking" and "group discussion" and moving to a new way of thinking and approaching these future challenges.

Anyways, if you're interested, here's the video

Cheers

Matt

[rozellem]

Hey, slightly unrelated. My sons class has an en suite toilet. How cool is that! Especially if you are 5 and have left the dash to the toilet a bit last minute.

[Shellfish]

While in keeping with education, this might be worth a watch, it's called "The Challenge Of Change".

Every 5-years Australia compiles what's known as "The Intergenerational Report", the data is used to project the future and used by economists, business and government.

You can download the IGR to read through yourself, but this short video does a great job of giving the highlights package.

With the mining boom coming to an end it's pretty clear that the future wealth depends on the export of knowledge, particularly in IT (which employs almost as many people as the mining sector) as well as financial services, exporting this wealth into the Asian marketplace.

If we look as some of the significant global advances Australia has made it's been in biotech and IT.

I think this in part is why there is a push in education to create "free thinking" and "group discussion" and moving to a new way of thinking and approaching these future challenges.

Anyways, if you're interested, here's the video

Cheers

Matt

Yep, that's fine and it makes sense as they get older but personally, I think in the early years they need to focus on the basics, the 3 r's and many young children have neither the concentration nor the discipline to learn in that environment. I agree that sitting in a straight line all staring at a board is also not necessarily the best way of learning either but I think there needs to be a middle ground. My son's school (and probably most schools now) have the kids sitting in groups, engaging and learning in teams which I think it fine and I don't have a problem with - just with small classes and one teacher is my preference

[OubaasDik]

Ditto for that!

And that goes for most holiday expenses & experiences in Australia! 2 Hour sail boat trip in Sydney Harbour no drinks, no snacks, no meals and sharing the boat with 150+ other people - you have to run for a spot and if you leave it you lose it = $49 per person (on special). Full day sail boat trip in Fiji with a handful of people, including all drinks, morning tea, BBQ steak & seafood lunch and afternoon tea, two snorkeling opportunities, a chance to steer the boat and a guided visit to a Fijian village = $117 per person.

Wife and daughter flew from Perth to KL the other day for $130 return (each, obviously) ....

[OubaasDik]

Hi,

A completely different question on the same topic - How are customer service levels in Aus?

Maybe I have bad luck but in most of my interactions here in Cape Town service providers just seem like they don't give a stuff. Everyone from the accounts department at the private school my kid attends, to the waitress at the local restaurant, to our insurance company, even the HR department at work just gets it wrong and doesn't care. It has gotten to the point where I dread dealing with companies because I know they are just going to stress me out.

Please tell me the culture in Aus is a little better.

Of all the people I interact with, the HR department at work has to be the worst. But when you work for a company that sends out memos that say things like "managers must fill in X and then the resource must fill in Y" it makes me very unhappy - I am not a "resource", I am a person - and they made a huge mistake changing the department name from Personnel to HR.

A pox on them all.

Edited July 25, 2015 by OubaasDik

[Shellfish]

The news is incredibly insular (unless you watching SBS) even within the different states and cities. Try and find something from outside Australia is nigh impossible. This is when you want to switch over to the BBC (if you have it).

[AFreshStart]

Shellfish,

If you think the Aus news is bad...

I seem to recall someone mentioning in another thread they are moving to the U.S. They'll see first hand how the news works there and how polarized it is depending on which channel you watch. FOX is the pits!

Having traveled to 25 States, lived in 3 of them and business taking me to economic hubs like NYC 7 times in the past 10 years, I'm somewhat qualified to pass comment from personal experience.

Social security has failed, Medicare is bankrupt, Obamacare has failed many and costing the working middle class a fortune in fees, schooling costs a fortune and the average U.S. student leaves with $30,000 of high-interest student loan debt. There is no FEE-HELP and the compound interest is crippling. Don't even get me started on gun control laws...

I have many close friends there, love them dearly and enjoy our holidays, as it seems you did, but from my limited experience here in Australia, there is no way I'd move our family there, we have much more in the way of liveabilty here.

Prior to moving we were in a pretty unique situation in that I was born a dual national of Australia & South Africa and have ancestry access to the UK through my late Grandmother, coupled with my wife working for a large multi national we had our pick of cities and countries and Australia still came out tops for us.

Funnily though if you had asked me 10-years ago I'd have said no, but having family with two young children has changed my outlook dramatically.

Cheers

Matt

Edited August 2, 2015 by AFreshStart

[Mara]

AFreshStart, I second that, having also lived in the USA, just one state though, New Mexico... I would take Australia any day, rather than live there.

We have friends who are Americans, they have property in Las Vegas Nevada as well as Florence Oregon, in 2009 their property values halved and only now are the values rising again, albeit slowly.

The cost of medical services, in any form, is totally exorbitant...

I do find there daily cost of everyday living, groceries and fresh food, appears to be cheaper than Australia and of course when it comes to motor vehicles, they beat us by a mile!

[Steve-o]

I'm going to add my 2 cents for the people who are reading this forum from back in SA would can't afford to get a visa out right and perhaps have an opportunity via a sponsorship. Not to discredit other people's observations. In fact those opinions will be more relevant to the highly educated people on here as that's the (rightly) vast majority of people who can emigrate.

The truth is definitely relative when comparing SA to AUS, depending on where you were on the very visible ladder in SA.

I come from a background of not much money. I'm the first to have a degree in my family. When I was between 10 and 15 years old my brother and I did most of the house, laundry and gardening work after my dad died suddenly. Not that we were very flush before that. Trips to the Eastern Transvaal were the furthest we went. We didn't know people who had been overseas before.

My perspective of Australia is that life is easier here. Much easier. You will never go hungry here. Most people live an excellent lifestyle. SA has a very uneven playing field where people in the white collar professions make way more than anybody else. That's not the case here. Here anybody that puts in a hard days work gets their fair share. And that's the reason why things seem expensive to a Saffa from the middle-upper class. My view is that it's as a first world reality. The way it should be. The labour landscape in South Africa is unique and cannot be compared to in my opinion.

[Nev]

I second Steve-o,

If you were flush (or considered yourself upper middle class in RSA) you will possibly consider it a step back in lifestyle, for those of us who found life to be a struggle, you will work just as hard here but live a much better lifestyle.

But there are also benefits for everyone in safety and a future for your kids, a government that works, electricity, water...etc, so this is not to say that if you are well off you should not move here, you will however be happier if you have realistic expectations when you get here

[JEMS]

Steve-O, best reply yet. Thank you. I come from lower class SA, and by lower class I mean I rent a townhouse next to the N2, my son is in government school that makes spelling mistakes on their Phonics tests, we drive a 10 year old Corsa 1.4 Club, and I own mostly Mr Price Furniture (with the exception of my double door fridge that I will miss terribly when we move). We have run our own business for the last 10 years in a small coastal town where the Rich and Famous retire to. But they did not become Rich and Famous by forking over their money so we are not able to charge what companies would charge in the cities. While we live in Millionaire's paradise, I cannot afford to buy a house here, let alone rent a house. Best we could do is a modest 3 bedroom town house right on the N2. BUT, we worked our asses off to make our company the best little IT company here. I work from home and have been able to spend most of my time with my kids, go to sport games, help with homework, that sort of thing. And we were able to sell our little business for enough to cover Visas, Flights, a few months living expenses and to replace pretty much everything we own anew in Oz (because shipping it over will cost more than what my stuff is worth.) My husband managed to secure a job from SA at a really fantastic salary. The only issue we have right now is that my kids and I miss him terribly and cannot wait to get over to join him. If not for the fact that my son had to finish 3rd Grade, we would have gone with him.

I am used to living with little. Down-scaling would mean poverty to me, so I think we will find Australia either the same or better than SA. I freaking hope, because I am over load-shedding. That is the other awesome thing about living in our little rich town...when the lights go off, little bright patches flair up all over as generators kick in. Some people just have it so much easier, lol.

We will not be able to buy property in Oz anytime soon, especially since we will be based in Sydney, but that is okay. And moving to Australia will be my first time going overseas. Holidays are pretty much reserved for a week or two at home, or visiting family. We are literally using every single cent we have to move over there, in the hopes of giving our KIDS a better life and we will do whatever we have to to make it work.

[Mara]

JEMS, you will be fine, and I am sure you will end up loving Australia!

[Steve-o]

Just realised how many times I typed "here" in my last post lol.

I'm also from the N2 drag, Empangeni. The way you're talking it sounds like you're around the Dolphin Coast/Zinkwazi area?

I'll predict that you'll live a more comfortable life in Australia. I owned a 1.3 VW Chico Golf before moving here and now I have a car with aircon and powersteering! Paid off within 3 months!