Is Future For South Afrcia Realy That Bad?

[Eto]

Hi All,

Just thought that I should bounce this off everyone and see what reaction I get, as I see a very different picture when comparing what I read in the news versus what I experience on a daily basis out in the streets of Port Elizabeth.

In most cases I am greeted with smiles when I walk the streets or go shopping. The workplace is very similar as well from tea lady to management and in general I get the feeling that many are trying to make it work even when the odds are against us.

Shopping centres are popping up all around us with the biggest and latest one (Baywest) that opened yesterday. Stunning ctr and probably best compared with Canal Walk in Cape Town I guess.

Yes we all know about load shedding, municipalities that are broke due to corruption, quality of water and schooling on a down, BBBEEEEEEEEE..... gees it sounds like I already answered my own question . However, I always get that feeling that things could actually work and turn out for the better in the long run.

Racing through my mind at present is the question.....do I sit it out in RSA and spend the time with my family and friends or do we pack and leave and start a new life in Australia? This means no more time with family and we are all very aware of how important this becomes once the grand kids arrive, once our parents are old and need help.

Not sure if anybody agrees, but it would be great to hear what your thoughts are.

Many thanks.

Eto

[SurferMan]

Hi HappyIslander,

The other thing was rates/taxes. Man alive, they were nailing me over 10k for water. One time I got a water bill for using 441 Kilo Litres of water in asingle month. I had to, at my own expense, get an engineer to produce a report to prove that it is not physically possible to push 441 000 litres of water though a 1/2 inch (12.7mm) pipe in 30 days. Even after that, they refused to refund me in full, but gave me a "rebate" at the lowest tariff. I was like, but guys, you charged me at the top tariff. They just said, that is our policy. Legal action got them going, but again it ground through the system for years.

Here in Aus I complained one day about my rubbish bin not being collected, a few hours later a council ute pullled up, cleaned the bin and took off. I got a rebate too.

I never saw one cent of my money in South Africa for all the dumb-ass toyi-toying, bin tipping, striking, as far as a credit goes. When I called the Krugersdorp council and said it is fraud to charge for a service and not receive it, I demand a credit, the guy laughed and said to me "This is the African way my friend"

[Jos]

I love this debate . As said in my previous post. We do not have the choice or luxury to move so here we are and we are making the best of it.. There are still opportunities for kids to study, it just take a lot of ground work and googling . My eldest daughter is a radiotherapist. She applied for a bursary through the Western Cape Department of Health and got it. Her husband studied law, did his articles and changed direction and is now company secretary. He is also studying for his masters. My youngest is a mechanical engineer and we applied for a bursary at the Department of Labour for a scarce skills and she got it. Most of her fellow students at Stellenbosch in engineering had bursaries through Sasol, Escom, Anglo or City of Cape Town and from the big construction companies. My son is starting his apprenticeship as a millwright in June through a company that is SETA registered, so they can offer the apprenticeship while he is working. We are an average middle class family. our kids worked from the age of 15 for pocket money and to support them while they were studying as we could not afford to pay for most of their studying. They are between the ages of 25 and 32. My youngest is the only one that left. she's in Brisbane. At that stage the option to move hasn't even occurred to her or us, but she saw it as an adventure and is now happily settled. Sooo, all I can say is. For us, our neighbours, friends and family we have a good life here.Yes we do complain, rant and rave. My MIL stays in Napier and she has had wonderful care the last five months at the Bredasdorp Provincial hospital. A friend of mine stays in Langebaan, she drives down to Atlantis I think and then take MyCiti bus into town. She loves it. For those that leave nobody can fault you for your decision and I admire you for it. It is a huge step. But you know for us that are living here, life is still good

@Springmielie: If I could like your post a thousand times, I would. What a breath of fresh air! It aint all doom and gloom people!

@MomOfTwo: You're right about the backup plan. It's looking less and less likely my dream of moving my young family to Australia is going to pan out, they have now finalised my application, and I have yet to receive a response, never a good sign... but, I have 4 EU passports safely locked in my safe, so if Oz doesn't work out, it's back to the motherland for us

Edited May 27, 2015 by JosOzBound

[RedPanda]

Wow, so many people have said so many really good and valid things.

I think the problem that invariably pops up with such topics is that people treat them as though they are physical or mathematical problems ie. there is a real/correct solution, and it can be reached through correct application of logic. There is a "truth/reality". This is simply not true. There is not a correct answer/view. Even if you list all of the facts, the real correct facts all together, people will still interact with them individually and uniquely and come to different conclusions.

It's like asking which is more delicious: braaivleis or cinnamon pancakes?

We are conscientious rule followers who get ticked off when other people "cheat" and get rewarded for it. We want (the "we" is hubby and I) to know that if we do our part we can count on receiving the 'agreed upon treatment'. eg save for retirement- retire financially secure; pay your municipality- don't have service issues; work hard- get recognition; pay taxes- see the return in good public services; follow the road rules- find the road is mostly a safe place to be; see someone commit a crime- see them prosecuted. We want to have the joys in normal things like taking a walk around our suburb, having systems that work, being financially comfortable (not rich, that is not a requirement for our happiness) but being able to provide things that are necessary and being able to save up for things that are nice. We want to have access to interesting/smart new technology, even if we don't buy most of it, but we want to have the choice. We want power that is reliable and internet that is good. We want to feel that the world is mostly reasonably safe. We want to live in or near a big city, without being terrified of crime or grossed out by the state of dirtiness. (We've been in Cape Town, and Pretoria, but actually like Jozi the best, apart from the crime and dirt)

This is why living in SA drives us absolutely bonkers-nuts! The land is beautiful and some of the people are really awesome, but it really does not offer what we want.

BUT...

We have friends who love it here. They don't want to move anywhere else. They have survived numerous break-ins, hi-jackings, been pushed out of work. Everything. But they find that SA offers them the things that they want: they can do whatever they like. Any situation will have a work-around. If you work for yourself you can make really big money, the opportunity IS there. They are attached to the good things in Afrikaans culture, they would really be uprooted if they had to go somewhere without it. So they are genuinely happy here. Not ignorant. Not ignoring their children's future. They actively want to live in the gap they see here.

If they had to come to Aussie for some reason they would probably stay the minimum amount of time, enjoy the nice things and then head straight back to SA.

Both of these points of view are real, accurate experiences of reality. Nobody knows the future, or we'd all be rich from good investments. Sure some things are more likely than others, but even then, how badly you rate a certain outcome depends on what you want.

So to answer the question posed at the start of the thread: The prognosis for my future in SA is very poor. But there are others for whom it's bright and full of opportunity.

[Rhyss]

I love this debate . As said in my previous post. We do not have the choice or luxury to move so here we are and we are making the best of it.. There are still opportunities for kids to study, it just take a lot of ground work and googling . My eldest daughter is a radiotherapist. She applied for a bursary through the Western Cape Department of Health and got it. Her husband studied law, did his articles and changed direction and is now company secretary. He is also studying for his masters. My youngest is a mechanical engineer and we applied for a bursary at the Department of Labour for a scarce skills and she got it. Most of her fellow students at Stellenbosch in engineering had bursaries through Sasol, Escom, Anglo or City of Cape Town and from the big construction companies. My son is starting his apprenticeship as a millwright in June through a company that is SETA registered, so they can offer the apprenticeship while he is working. We are an average middle class family. our kids worked from the age of 15 for pocket money and to support them while they were studying as we could not afford to pay for most of their studying. They are between the ages of 25 and 32. My youngest is the only one that left. she's in Brisbane. At that stage the option to move hasn't even occurred to her or us, but she saw it as an adventure and is now happily settled. Sooo, all I can say is. For us, our neighbours, friends and family we have a good life here.Yes we do complain, rant and rave. My MIL stays in Napier and she has had wonderful care the last five months at the Bredasdorp Provincial hospital. A friend of mine stays in Langebaan, she drives down to Atlantis I think and then take MyCiti bus into town. She loves it. For those that leave nobody can fault you for your decision and I admire you for it. It is a huge step. But you know for us that are living here, life is still good

Nice post Springmielie, it's kinda the point that I was trying to make about my BIL's family with now adult kids and their business in SA. Both kids managed to get uni degrees and good jobs, despite their white skin. I suppose the mistake I made was comparing it to their family in Oz and that's a no go zone for discussion

[GandTash]

What has concerned me even further recently (besides all the valid points on BEE/Crime/Corruption etc) about the state of SA is how similar it is becoming to the rest of Africa, came back from a business trip in Nairobi last week and experienced the following there :

• Unstable power grid and many power failures
• Pot holed roads
• Major traffic issues and crazy taxi driving (ok all drivers are suicidal there but you get the drift)
• Major problems with general infrastructure
• Poor service delivery
• Corrupt traffic police openly taking bribes on the side of the road
• Golden handshakes for getting business etc (Bribes in other words)
• Beggars and hawkers hassling cars at intersections

I suddenly realized I felt like I was back home in SA still

I used to travel into Africa often over my working career and was always happy to be back in a relatively 1st world country when I got home, that is fast changing and I'm afraid SA is destined to become "another failed african country" unless something drastic happens - I for one am not waiting around to find out.

[HappyIsland]

I suppose the mistake I made was comparing it to their family in Oz and that's a no go zone for discussion

Rhyss are you still crying about this? We've all moved on a long time ago

[SurferMan]

@HappyIslander, That was funny.

@GandTash, yes I saw that happening in 1999, I did a Y2K ERP implmentation in Botswana, and had special exemption to cross the border at will. Going back and forth for some 9 months, I could see the decay in real-time. Was amazing to watch. Come on over, the water is just fine here in Aus.

[HappyIsland]

The video of this clown says it all.
It speaks volumes of Zuma's lack of accountability, his attitude, and his unique ability to get away with all crimes no matter how much evidence is stacked against him.

Edited May 28, 2015 by HappyIsland

[SurferMan]

And the whitewashed report says it all. His little minions covering his fat ass. I would pay money to see this thief jailed. Worse though is the way poor Saffers have to endure hardship and he feeds off tax money.

#gototjoekieyouliar

[monsta]

@SueferMan be careful about saying things like that. The next thing you know they will try to make white people pay to gave every other from locked up.

"Eish baba! That guy who broke into your house is very bad. But, also very bad is my wages. I had to take the petrol from my police car and put it in Jabus car. Now I can no longer arrest this man as my police car, she is not working!"

Sure only 1 in 5000 police would hit you up for money. But I am sure you would laugh and cry at the same time.

[SurferMan]

ROFL @ monsta,

Listen to this Gareth Cliff rant, brilliant.

http://cliffcentral.com/gareths-zuma-rant/

[RedPanda]

And the most liberating feeling of all is having your visa and when things like that happen you think: Not my circus- Not my monkeys. Cheers!

[Donovan83]

The video of this clown says it all.

It speaks volumes of Zuma's lack of accountability, his attitude, and his unique ability to get away with all crimes no matter how much evidence is stacked against him.

It's been AGES since I last heard that stupid accent. I have not missed it one bit.

I wish the opposition would just stand up and tell him to voetsek!

Edited May 31, 2015 by Donovan83

[SurferMan]

Hahaha @ Dono,

I also do not miss that moron and his clan of henchmen. I try very hard not to hate, but he makes it damn near impossible. I will personally sponsor the bubbly the day he is found guilty of his corruption. Oh wait, he was already found guilty, but was not one of the accused. For those who dont recall Judge H.G. Squires judgement, here it is----> https://www.nelsonmandela.org/omalley/index.php/site/q/03lv03445/04lv04015/05lv04148/06lv04149.htm

My bad. Should change his Zulu name from Msholozi to "Ma-Choncela Isela" - aka The thief.

[blung]

Here's a decent summary of where we're at...

http://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21652315-africas-second-largest-economy-huge-mess-dark-days-ahead?fsrc=scn/li/cp/pe/st/darkdaysahead

[Nev]

ya, i watched the video of zuma mocking the opposition and how white people say nnnnnn'kandla......

To see the president, in parliament, gloating for getting away with pinching government money, is scary to say the least, especially when you think about the people that had to essentially lie for it to happen, and what their role in the country is.

I'm sorry the dive has become just a little bit steeper....

[DavePE]

Eto I think being based in PE, you're not as affected by all of the government shenanigans as people in other places of SA. I spent the last 5 year in Johannesburg and it's much more "in your face" as to how fast this country is declining. I've been back in PE for the past 6 months and I can understand your thinking that you could have a very good life here. Crime, corruption, BEE and all the other problems facing this country just seem a lot more noticeable in JHB compared to PE.

I would say living in South Africa is bearable at the moment but I don't see it improving. Not in the foreseeable future nor the distant future for that matter. 63% of our voting population have given their approval for rampant crime, corruption and sheer incompetence. And I don't feel there's anything I can do to change that. That's why I on my out of here.

[Eto]

Howzit DavePE,

Yep I hear and fully understand what you are saying. So sad for such a beautiful country with many good people to suffer because of a few idiots.

When are you out of here?

Cheers

Eto

[DavePE]

Still in the early stages. I only submitted my documents to Vetasses this week. Got my fingers crossed because if I get a negative assessment my application is dead in the water.

[SurferMan]

DavePE and Eto,

you guys are in my prayers. i truly hope you get your PR visas and can swing by this great country. As always your positivity in the face of such odds is admirable. Keep those chins up and keep swinging,

[Eto]

Good luck then DavePE and hope it all works out.

[Shellfish]

I can relate to a story where one side of a family decided to emigrate to Aus, the other stayed in SA. My brother in-law, his brother and Dad ran a small mechanical services business in SA. About 12 years ago my BIL decided that he wanted to give his kids a better future, a better chance in life so with his trade qualification and his wife being a teacher they entered Aus via the skilled visa route. We were here to welcome them! His brother stayed in SA and took over the business. They both have 2 kids of similar ages, my BIL has a son and daughter, his brother in SA has 2 sons.

Fast forward 12 years. The family in Aus settled quickly, got jobs and bought a house, kids went to local government school and life was/is good. Both kids completed YR12 and son (now 23yrs old) works at a Telstra shop selling mobile phone packages. Daughter is 20yrs old and doing a hairdressing apprenticeship.

The brother in SA continued with the business which by all accounts has done very well. They own a lovely house, business premises, wife does not work and their parents have retired. The parents now well in their late 60’s spend a lot of time touring in SA, Namibia, Botswana, Zim etc visiting game parks. The brother in SA sent both his boys to university. The oldest is a qualified as an architect and received 3 job offers out of the 4 that he applied for. The youngest son recently qualified as a Quantity Surveyor and received a job offer with one of the major construction companies straight out of university.

We were chatting about the outcome of these two families over dinner on Sat night. The feeling was that in Aus, average is okay but in SA average is not okay. In SA it’s not acceptable to send your kid to work in a cell phone shop whereas in Oz it’s okay, you’ll be average and average is okay….for now!

PS! The folks we were having dinner with are 3rd generation Aussies. The ladies mom who's in her late 70's is requiring frail care. Please, don't for one second think this is a free or easy service to get for a needy pensioner in s! The family is forking out huge sums to keep the old lady in care! Retiring in Aus.....do your sums VERY carefully!

Statistically speaking, 50% of school leavers in aus attend uni. We all know for a fact that this is not the case in SA.

I actually take exception to this - I don't believe that 50% of people are cut out to study at this level particularly at my expense (being the tax payer who funds this).

I am aware that certain professions such as Nursing require degrees that didn't in the past however this is still a high number. Also, the number of people who actually complete these degrees is proof that not everyone is cut out for uni.

I also curious who is selling mobile contracts in SA? Someone's got to do it but S.Africans are still hung up on the fact that someone with white skin should be in the elite..

[Shellfish]

Hi All, Just thought that I should bounce this off everyone and see what reaction I get, as I see a very different picture when comparing what I read in the news versus what I experience on a daily basis out in the streets of Port Elizabeth. In most cases I am greeted with smiles when I walk the streets or go shopping. The workplace is very similar as well from tea lady to management and in general I get the feeling that many are trying to make it work even when the odds are against us. Shopping centres are popping up all around us with the biggest and latest one (Baywest) that opened yesterday. Stunning ctr and probably best compared with Canal Walk in Cape Town I guess. Yes we all know about load shedding, municipalities that are broke due to corruption, quality of water and schooling on a down, BBBEEEEEEEEE..... gees it sounds like I already answered my own question . However, I always get that feeling that things could actually work and turn out for the better in the long run. Racing through my mind at present is the question.....do I sit it out in RSA and spend the time with my family and friends or do we pack and leave and start a new life in Australia? This means no more time with family and we are all very aware of how important this becomes once the grand kids arrive, once our parents are old and need help. Not sure if anybody agrees, but it would be great to hear what your thoughts are. Many thanks. Eto

When we arrived in Australia, in 2003 it was R5 /$1 it is now hovering around R10 to the Aus dollar. It's just worth bearing in mind that if coming to Aus is inevitable - this is the million dollar question but none of us has a crystal ball, then I would say the sooner the better.

[ottg]

Very interesting points and arguments raised - positive and negative!

Couldn't help to think about how we experience things all differently i.e Same situation different perceptions

Then I saw this snippet....amazing how the mind works

Forgot to add: therefore your own perceptions are own your realities

Edited June 12, 2015 by ottg

[blung]

Very interesting points and arguments raised - positive and negative!

Couldn't help to think about how we experience things all differently i.e Same situation different perceptions

Then I saw this snippet....amazing how the mind works

SnipImage.JPG

Forgot to add: therefore your own perceptions are own your realities

Let me know when they shoot you in front of your pregnant wife and then tell me all about 'perceptions'