Is Future For South Afrcia Realy That Bad?

[Eto]

Hi All,

Just thought that I should bounce this off everyone and see what reaction I get, as I see a very different picture when comparing what I read in the news versus what I experience on a daily basis out in the streets of Port Elizabeth.

In most cases I am greeted with smiles when I walk the streets or go shopping. The workplace is very similar as well from tea lady to management and in general I get the feeling that many are trying to make it work even when the odds are against us.

Shopping centres are popping up all around us with the biggest and latest one (Baywest) that opened yesterday. Stunning ctr and probably best compared with Canal Walk in Cape Town I guess.

Yes we all know about load shedding, municipalities that are broke due to corruption, quality of water and schooling on a down, BBBEEEEEEEEE..... gees it sounds like I already answered my own question . However, I always get that feeling that things could actually work and turn out for the better in the long run.

Racing through my mind at present is the question.....do I sit it out in RSA and spend the time with my family and friends or do we pack and leave and start a new life in Australia? This means no more time with family and we are all very aware of how important this becomes once the grand kids arrive, once our parents are old and need help.

Not sure if anybody agrees, but it would be great to hear what your thoughts are.

Many thanks.

Eto

[Rhyss]

That's good, but let's not pretend that Public Transport in SA is something it's not. If you finish work late at night, would you be safe to walk from your office to the bus station and from the bus station to your house alone?

Also, R25 gets you a return ticket on that bus.

In Melbourne, R70 a day lets me travel on any bus, tram or train anywhere in Melbourne ALL day.

Hansa, only a fool will compare the public transport services of a developed first world country to that of a developing country, same goes for crime! I'm not comparing, I'm replying to an exact example as given by MelJ when she complained about her commute from Blouberg to the CBD. But yes, one can sit back and dream up any number of comparisons and examples to support any side of a debate or view which is definitely not representative of the whole country, not in SA and not in Aus.

I'm not familiar with the public transport system in Melbourne but I do know that often these concession cards and "all day" discounted fares exclude peak times and are often defined by zones which means changing modes of transport if you're commuting a reasonable distance. In Perth there was talk about toll roads and they had people calling in on the local radio station. Some of the stories about commutes in places like Sydney and Melbourne were eye openers. Not only how costs of increased over the years but how long people spend commuting.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/how-much-is-too-much-for-sydney-toll-roads-20150412-1mif9l.html

For James Fiander, the former chairman of the Hills Transport Working Group, the cost of driving on toll roads between his old home in Kellyville Ridge in Sydney's north-west to the city eventually led to him and his partner moving to inner-city Pyrmont.

"It worked out to about a round number, about $500 a month," Mr Fiander said. "And that was just to get to work, before you do weekends, and that pushed us out of the Hills."

Not sure about you but $500 per month on tolls just to commute to and from work is a bit steep! It's a big issue, whichever way you chop and dice it.

[blung]

Telkom was the top performing share on the JSE last year, certainly not on the verge of collapse...

[SurferMan]

Actually I do understand Rhyss...but I struggle to grasp the weighting criteria, for want of a better expression. I get that it is relative to each person as well.

[Rhyss]

Actually I do understand Rhyss...but I struggle to grasp the weighting criteria, for want of a better expression. I get that it is relative to each person as well.

Yip, we're all individuals and that's what makes us unique. If one's perception is their reality, one's reality is what makes them happy and that's all that counts.

[SurferMan]

Too true. Who's putting a dollar on the table JZ has not gotten past the date, name and logo on the 1st page of the Marikana report?

[HappyIsland]

What some folks (like Mara and Surferman) do not understand (or do not want to believe) is that there are many people in SA, white folks with kids who have jobs, lead good lives and are surrounded by family, friends and everything familiar and dear to them, yes they are happy, can you believe it HAPPY!

We can all draw up a list of the many reasons why we should hate SA and why we wish we could save all those poor white souls destined for the a life of suffering and misery. Some even make lists showing AA, BEE, corruption, crime and not to forget making and sharing jokes on social media about load shedding and Zuma's 10th wife or single out a Carte Blanche documentary about abuse in old ages homes and all of a sudden that's the norm in SA. Forget the good stuff focus on the bad stuff.

I know, I did the same thing 15 years ago and if this helps to make those who chose to move abroad away from their family and friends to feel better about themselves

Rhyss, perhaps you made lists to make yourself feel better, as that is obviously a point you bought up from your own experience. Things mentioned in my post are facts - things that happen on a daily basis - not drawn from opinion or emotion.

Emigrating is not an easy decision to make, so looking at the good and bad is a requirement in order to make a rational decision.

It's easy to make comments from Perth, not knowing what the situation in South Africa is now. 15 years ago vs now can not be compared at all. Things have changed a lot in the last 5 years, let alone 15.

There is nothing wrong with bringing up the bad points. (I don't understand why it has become a crime for South Africans to mention anything negative). The minute someone in your family has been a victim of crime, or you are unable to find decent jobs due to BEE, I'd like to see how far the positive attitude gets you. It then becomes a case of reality and making the best decision for your family.

I have many friends who are comfortable with good paying jobs and kids in good schools. If you've got a lot of money in SA, you can buy safety and a future for your family and that only applies for the elite few.

Most people in SA are unknowingly living in a comfort zone, not knowing how difficult it has become to secure employment. (everything is nice and comfy untill you get laid off, lose a job, etc.) It has become near impossible to secure employment - it's become a case of if you have a good job and manage to keep it you're ok for the time being, but trying to secure other employment has become impossible due to the level of BEE that is now being implemented in the last 2 years in particular.

In our circle of friends who are comfortable, none of their kids are able to secure jobs here in SA, they have all headed overseas.

Sure it's easy to fall in love with SA if you're in Perth, away from the crime, discrimination and lack of future for your kids. You visit here in comfort and only experience the good. Living here is a different story. But let's not make this into a positive outlook / don't focus on the negative post, what's happening here is a day to day reality.

[FairGo]

MelJ, you could have caught the My Citi bus from Blouberg right into the City! It's very popular, safe, convenient, cheap and no parking hassles. You could have read a book and done your nails.

PS! If you live in a major city in Aus like Melbourne or Sydney you better brace yourself for much more time consuming and expensive commute...hello toll gates!

my city.jpg

my city fare.jpg

Rhyss, I had to drive with my own car as I had to go to clients most days and SARS office occasionally. I have no problem travelling with safe public transport.

What does it matter anyway? This post is not about public transport, its about safety and that there is no where to go anymore. Yes, you can stay in the best estate, but you still have to travel and work outside of it. And for 80% of us, it is not possible to stay in the high end estates.

Unfortunately, all of the negatives listed above, are the norm. I honestly wish things were different so that we could stay. I do not want to leave my family behind, but I took on the responsibility the day I decided to have a child to provide him with safety and a chance to have a future.

You seem to have all the answers...

If you think its so great, why do you not return to SA? I honestly do not understand why you stay in OZ.

Edited May 26, 2015 by MelJ

[Rhyss]

@HappyIsland, this is not a pissing competition (get used to that language, it's Aussie talk) but rather a discussion on the topic of this thread.....Is the future in SA really that bad. In your opinion it is, for others not. The problem with making lists is not to make a rational decision, it's to help make the decision for the outcome that you really want. Also if you care to read my posts you'll see that I spend more than a few days on holiday in SA, I have a business there and spend more than just happy holidays there.

@MelJ, you're not even in Aus yet and you're falling into that "I honestly do not understand why you stay in OZ" category. I'm here because I want to be here, I built a life here, I own business and properties here BUT I do not have to justify being here by spending my life convincing myself and anyone who will listen that SA has all its problems! This thread is not about 'safety' you've made it about safety to justify your decision. The discussion is about SA's future and is it really that bad? You mentioned traffic congestion, I gave you a simple and rather obvious solution. But if you need your car (like I do) for work then regardless of which city you live in you willexperience traffic jams, it's not unique to CT. But add that to your list if you're struggling for negative points

[HappyIsland]

@HappyIsland, this is not a pissing competition (get used to that language, it's Aussie talk) but rather a discussion on the topic of this thread.....Is the future in SA really that bad.

Rhyss, why the reason for the swearing and aggressive tone in your posts?

[Rhyss]

Rhyss, why the reason for the swearing and aggressive tone in your posts?

HappyIsland, seriously mate, if you think that is swearing or an aggressive tone then let me assure you that you are going to be one very unhappy camper in Oz who will spend a lot of time feeling offended. Said like a true Aussie in the most polite way possible, "toughen up Princess"

Edited May 26, 2015 by Rhyss

[FairGo]

This if getting way off topic. I am not on this forum for bickering, but for useful information.

You have issues man.

Signing off.

[Rhyss]

This if getting way off topic. I am not on this forum for bickering, but for useful information.

You have issues man.

Signing off.

who's bickering now Yip, signing off as well. It seems that anyone who tries to see the flip side of the coin is made out to be the bad one. Enjoy Aus

Edited May 26, 2015 by Rhyss

[JuliaClaire]

So, to get back to the original question: is the future in SA really that bad?

This is my simplistic perspective. Sorry if I repeat myself or don't make sense.

Yes. I think there is a future in SA. There is opportunity.

It is a wonderful place to live and bring up children. My children are getting an excellent foundation here. They know they have to work hard and give of their best because it's not easy out there. I am happy with the values and experiences they are receiving here, there is a certain substance to living in SA which I have not experienced elsewhere ( my perspective, not necessarily true).

That said, at a tertiary level, I would prefer my children to study in Australia. Some of the Universities have gone to pot here. Transformation is problematic. I would prefer my children to be given a fair go when they are trying to establish their careers. Aus wins hands down here.

Where you live in SA impacts your perspective. I personally have never understood the whole 'I sleep with a gun under my pillow and fear for my life every time I go out' sentiment. I feel safe. That's my experience. Touch wood.

Personally I think that if you have money to live well here, and have achieved good job security you're fine.

Personally, I think that if If you struggle financially here, and have no safety net, australia offers a better future.

[JuliaClaire]

Just read on news24 that the taxi drivers are on strike in Durban.

They are slaughtering goats and pouring petrol on things.

Maybe my perspective above was too positive?

And so begins the daily, angst about living in South Africa and it's future arrrggg !!!

Edited May 26, 2015 by JuliaClaire

[Jos]

I love how this has become a real firestarter topic, and the one who started the fire just sits back and watches it burn

[Toitjie]

If bee and rising crime and everything else mentioned doesn't bother anyone, the state of medical care should.

In the last couple of years with hubby's elderly and sickly parents as well as his daughter we got plenty experience of public hospitals. My FIL was treated and booked for chemo before a samaritan paid for a private consult who found he in fact did not have cancer but only indigestion. My MIL was treated horribly. Hubby's daughter had a baby in Kalafong and the lost her and baby and had no interest in searching. We found the baby together with 20 other babies, all without name bracelets. FIL got a new hip which came loose after 2 weeks. Very nice doctor from Kenya said he checked his hips and thought he wouldn't put in screws as the prosthesis fit pretty tightly over the bone so he thought it would be ok.

And private medical is horribly expensive and for how long will that work where the few get expensive treatment and the masses have to sit in overcrowded emergency rooms? The level of skills in doctors and nurses is what concerns me most. Students are forced through and patients pay the price.

[Eto]

@ JosOzbound

Yep I guess you are right, but is there really anything else that I can add to what has already been said and listed on the forum?

Apologies to all if this was not the right topic to discuss.

Eto

Edited May 26, 2015 by Eto

[funtobeaussiechick]

We all know how beautiful SA is! We all know how stunning the landscape, the people etc are. We all know why we are on this forum. We share the common feature here. We all left, or are leaving to move to AUS. We dont Need anyone to tell us how fantastic South Africa could still be, I mean who cares? Been there, done that, been hijacked, been raped, been scammed. Now we want a change, embrace Aus, love the Outback, the sunsets, the freedom, the beaches, the safety, no fences, no electric fences, no street sellers, govt dept that work, no skabengas, feeling safe in traffic, traffic light freedom, no guns, no armed response, no begging, getting on with life, going at at night and not worrying about how where why what..What a life I have here, not riches but full sunsets, great weather, generous people, loving life, outdoors, swimming pools, bike riding day or night, dog walking anytime day or not, no planning bliss. LIFE which I had forgotten existed out of my high walls and fences. At Christmas time we all get together in our street a few weeks before Xmas and have a lovely party, sunsets, pool, kids running around the neighbourhood, feels like I am reliving my childhood, dejavu.

Dont let riches cloud your vision of a good, happy lovely life. Its here in the land of the lucky Aus

[Mara]

@ Funtobeaussiechick: what a wonderful insight, I too give thanks daily for the opportunity to be able to live in peace and not in pieces!

@ ETO: : Nothing wrong with your choice of topic. I am always amused when people try and tell you how wonderful RSA still is, unfortunately I am not of that opinion. It is an insight to be able to read all the various opinions.

@ Toitjie: I do so agree with your post, well said.

[HappyIsland]

That's good, but let's not pretend that Public Transport in SA is something it's not. If you finish work late at night, would you be safe to walk from your office to the bus station and from the bus station to your house alone?

Agree with you Hansa.

Those thinking that the MyCiti system is a great example of public transport done right in Africa - don't speak too soon.

The MyCiti bus system was designed by Europeans not locals. Local government did push a lot of cash into this as a result of the World Cup, but there are serious maintenance issues at the moment. Local government has only agreed to partially fund the maintenance of MyCiti for the first 5 years, with no plans to provide any funding beyond that. (Government has made it clear this has been the intention from the start).

Most, if not all successful public transport systems are government funded. It has to be, as it is not possible to run a transport system in poorer areas or areas without sustainable traffic.

We are going to see yet another collapse of a well run system implemented by Europeans, taken over by africans and "run" the african way.

Telkom was the top performing share on the JSE last year, certainly not on the verge of collapse...

That's only because Telkom sold their stake in Vodacom (wrong move) which was a huge revenue earner for telkom. As a result telkom's share got a boost of confidence but the shares are still selling well below what their valued at.

They also underwent a huge cost cutting exercise and cut salaries. Let's talk again next year when their cash surplus from the sale of Vodacom stake have dried up.

So, to get back to the original question: is the future in SA really that bad?

This is my simplistic perspective. Sorry if I repeat myself or don't make sense.

Yes. I think there is a future in SA. There is opportunity.

It is a wonderful place to live and bring up children. My children are getting an excellent foundation here. They know they have to work hard and give of their best because it's not easy out there. I am happy with the values and experiences they are receiving here, there is a certain substance to living in SA which I have not experienced elsewhere ( my perspective, not necessarily true).

That said, at a tertiary level, I would prefer my children to study in Australia. Some of the Universities have gone to pot here. Transformation is problematic. I would prefer my children to be given a fair go when they are trying to establish their careers. Aus wins hands down here.

Where you live in SA impacts your perspective. I personally have never understood the whole 'I sleep with a gun under my pillow and fear for my life every time I go out' sentiment. I feel safe. That's my experience. Touch wood.

Personally I think that if you have money to live well here, and have achieved good job security you're fine.

Personally, I think that if If you struggle financially here, and have no safety net, australia offers a better future.

Julie I do agree that those with money can live well, and many do live very comfy lives here.

But don't confuse financial well being with safety, education and career prospects. Cause those are prospects for whites are very scarce in SA.

What about your kids? Can you guarantee that they going to live well? Can money guarantee your families safety? Can your money buy a job or a career for your kids?

You can live comfortably in your mansions and private schools, but out in public, on the highways, in the cities, in your car, it's the wild west, and we all know someone who has been a victim of SA crime.

Don't forget to look ahead instead of just enjoying how comfortable you are at the moment. You might have a comfortable life, but your kids might not be well off one day. Being anything less than comfortable is a scary thought, I can't bear the thought of putting my children in that predicament.

A good friend of mine had a very comfortable life as a senior IT manager for the last 15 years. His position has been replaced by a BEE candidate and he has been left jobless, albeit with a bit of a payout. He can't get another job, has been trying for 3 + years. He has a wife and children to put through school. He's late 40's and now living on his retirement fund. This will dry up in a few years, and where to from there? No job, can't get a job, no money, wife didn't work and can't find a job either. He can't leave the country either as he is too old to get in anywhere else.

To make matters worse - I have 2 other acquaintances in the exact same boat. Laid off and positions being filled by BEE candidates. They can't find jobs either.

We are going to face a huge problem - whites not being able to find jobs or an income, and ultimately these people are at huge risk of ending up on the streets.

So what I'm saying is that there's a lot of people living in a comfort bubble, not realizing how vulnerable they really are.

I contracted for a big financial company for several years. They are now only taking on BEE candidates. They would love to work with me again, but company regulations won't allow for it. That's the state of things in SA at the moment.

Those in regular jobs don't know how bad things have become, and those who have emigrated don't either.

Edited May 26, 2015 by HappyIsland

[MomOfTwo]

If bee and rising crime and everything else mentioned doesn't bother anyone, the state of medical care should.

In the last couple of years with hubby's elderly and sickly parents as well as his daughter we got plenty experience of public hospitals. My FIL was treated and booked for chemo before a samaritan paid for a private consult who found he in fact did not have cancer but only indigestion. My MIL was treated horribly. Hubby's daughter had a baby in Kalafong and the lost her and baby and had no interest in searching. We found the baby together with 20 other babies, all without name bracelets. FIL got a new hip which came loose after 2 weeks. Very nice doctor from Kenya said he checked his hips and thought he wouldn't put in screws as the prosthesis fit pretty tightly over the bone so he thought it would be ok.

And private medical is horribly expensive and for how long will that work where the few get expensive treatment and the masses have to sit in overcrowded emergency rooms? The level of skills in doctors and nurses is what concerns me most. Students are forced through and patients pay the price.

Oh my word thats terrible. sorry to hear about all the problems your family had to face. IT is VERY scary about the babies without tags though......

[MomOfTwo]

In my opinion, if you have kids you need to put there future and there kids future and sommer the next ten generations under consideration NOW while you have the chance.

You have a 50 50 chance of either making it or breaking it in SA, and if you don't like gambling then take this opportunity while you have it and GO because you can ALWAYS go back. Just sux it up for a few years get your passport and then re-evaluate.

You might love living in AUS who knows....u might hate it who knows....if u don't like it try Canada :-) BUT at least have a back up plan because it doesn't look like the petition going around called : European Commission: Allow all white South Africans the right to return to Europe ; is gonna be the miracle back up plan PLUS what about our mixed race friends, a lot of them feel the same as white south africans...in fact some black friends feels the same way too! So all i can say is on this matter: SA is not THAT bad, NOW. BUT you don't have a crystal ball and if you were to play, lets say, HORSES, you would not bet on the one with the broken leg and blind eye would you? You would bet on the healthy one that has won a couple maybe not all but a couple of races....so why bet on SA if you are already having doubts.......those who have no doubts won't be on this forum and is living very happily in SA ( i envy them, I wish i was like that life would be less stressful).

My plan is to get a passport (either here in Canada although honestly....cant imagine being old and crippled in THIS weather!!, or in AUS - bring on the sunshine), and the either go do expat work and make lots of money to put into the retirement fund, or go back to SA if a miracle happens in SA.

To be honest I would go back to SA tomorrow if it wasn't for the crime. I can handle all else. Everything else can be dealt with . U loose ur job even, we will handle that but crime.....once that happen, there is no turning back, no fixing , no bringing back to life, no undoing the emotional damange.

Good luck to the original poster, may you find an answer. Trust me a lot of people in the same shoes right now...they should bring out special Nikes for this journey.

[springmielie]

I love this debate . As said in my previous post. We do not have the choice or luxury to move so here we are and we are making the best of it.. There are still opportunities for kids to study, it just take a lot of ground work and googling . My eldest daughter is a radiotherapist. She applied for a bursary through the Western Cape Department of Health and got it. Her husband studied law, did his articles and changed direction and is now company secretary. He is also studying for his masters. My youngest is a mechanical engineer and we applied for a bursary at the Department of Labour for a scarce skills and she got it. Most of her fellow students at Stellenbosch in engineering had bursaries through Sasol, Escom, Anglo or City of Cape Town and from the big construction companies. My son is starting his apprenticeship as a millwright in June through a company that is SETA registered, so they can offer the apprenticeship while he is working. We are an average middle class family. our kids worked from the age of 15 for pocket money and to support them while they were studying as we could not afford to pay for most of their studying. They are between the ages of 25 and 32. My youngest is the only one that left. she's in Brisbane. At that stage the option to move hasn't even occurred to her or us, but she saw it as an adventure and is now happily settled. Sooo, all I can say is. For us, our neighbours, friends and family we have a good life here.Yes we do complain, rant and rave. My MIL stays in Napier and she has had wonderful care the last five months at the Bredasdorp Provincial hospital. A friend of mine stays in Langebaan, she drives down to Atlantis I think and then take MyCiti bus into town. She loves it. For those that leave nobody can fault you for your decision and I admire you for it. It is a huge step. But you know for us that are living here, life is still good

[SurferMan]

Okay guys,

Back to your corners, LOL. Surferman is here to pick up the toys.

So there seem to be two primary schools of opinion here. One is SA is not good and heading downhill, the other says its what you make of it. I am of course in the former school. If I had been in SA I am almost 100% convinced I would not be able to nail any work due to BEE. The majority of people with whom I worked who are high end consultants, have left SA. Target destinations are the US, Canada, Aus, UK, and a smattering of exotic locations like Sweden, Sao Paolo, Trinidad and "Mudder Russia".

I only only know of 7 folk who have stayed back. Their reasons are: 1: Too old/not eligible, 2: Won't leave kids/family behind, 3: No money to leave. Most of those would leave if they could get out and take the kids with them.

Oh yes, I have one mate who is trying to leave but his daughter of 16 is kicking her heels in because of BF. he got his PR in 2011+validated so is almost out of time to come over. He is a millionaire and a CFO of a multi-billion dollar business and he says all the trends are facing down and have not moved. he reckons even with his fortune there is no way for him to ensure safety. Poor fellow is beside himself.

[HappyIsland]

If I had been in SA I am almost 100% convinced I would not be able to nail any work due to BEE. The majority of people with whom I worked who are high end consultants, have left SA. Target destinations are the US, Canada, Aus, UK, and a smattering of exotic locations like Sweden, Sao Paolo, Trinidad and "Mudder Russia".

I only only know of 7 folk who have stayed back. Their reasons are: 1: Too old/not eligible, 2: Won't leave kids/family behind, 3: No money to leave. Most of those would leave if they could get out and take the kids with them.

Oh yes, I have one mate who is trying to leave but his daughter of 16 is kicking her heels in because of BF. he got his PR in 2011+validated so is almost out of time to come over. He is a millionaire and a CFO of a multi-billion dollar business and he says all the trends are facing down and have not moved. he reckons even with his fortune there is no way for him to ensure safety. Poor fellow is beside himself.

Surferman you hit the nail on the head here. This has been my experience too.