Why did you come back?

[RCJames]

I have to ask these question since my wife is asking.

If you have come back to SA, why did you come back?

Where in SA are you staying now?

How long did you stay in OZ and where did you stay?

Look forward to your responses

[AFreshStart]

Not to derail this thread, but Johnno it's equally hard buying a house here in SA these days, esp. for younger folk.

My wife and I bought our first property together at 25, it was the bottom of the property market, a simple 2-bedroom flat for R350,000, a HUGE stretch for us at the time, with her being a article clerk and me carrying the brunt of it, but 3 years later we were able to sell for R675,000 to use as a down payment towards our 3-bedroom house, which we bought 4 years ago for R1.4 million, we've just sold for R2.5 million.

But coming into it, I don't know HOW we could afford to buy today in SA had we not already been in the market with a hefty deposit, because we'd not qualify for a loan for R2.5 million, even with my wife being in senior management with a top a counting firm and in my field as a creative director.

So what about those coming out of varsity, getting their first jobs, MANY of my friends in their mid-late 30's still don't own property in SA, even though some have high paying jobs, not enough to secure the kind of loan they'd need.

And to be fair we live in a nice suburb in the Southern Suburbs of Cape Town, but it's far from lavish: middle class, upper income.

I truly believe the middle class in SA is shrinking, things are getting more and more expensive: food, health care, security, car repayments, insurances the list goes on.

We'll be renting in Aus, and it might take us 10+ years to get in on a property, heck we may even only buy in the country near retirement, but the pros of the big move far outweigh the cons in our mind.

Cheers

Matt

[Bronwyn&Co]

The thing is-and I think most people will identify with that-is the head versus the heart.

Australia is the better place to be on every level, then why does it feel so wrong for me?

I was super prepared for my move here-followed all the advice, ticked all the boxes.

Did about 6 LSD trip here before we came( we do have family is Aus, but far from where we live now)

I was totally convinced this country was right for me.

My husband was not very keen to go all, so it took some major convincing on my part to make the move.

Now, I have all the guilt to contend with. He was right after all! We both feel lost and alien here.

Why after more than two years here? Does anyone have that same weird feeling of being misplaced all the time? My heart feels so heavy-it is an actual physical feeling.

We have made the effort to integrate into society, the Australians are a friendly bunch.

Will this feeling ever go away? Is it only me? Anyone else out there that feels this way?

Karin I really feel for you. When a person is unhappy in Australia the response is always 'But South Africa is terrible!' That's not the point. The point is maybe simply that Australia is not for you.

Nothing to do with South Africa.

I know on every level I am supposed to like this place and yet often I dislike it intensely. We cannot make Aussie friends. I hate the houses and the behaviour on the roads, and the red tape and the bogans and the robots working in the shops and restaurants and the food in the restaurants and the slow internet and socialist mentality and the extremely high prices in world terms and the 80s music on the radio, the lame tv, the shocking adverts, well just about everything.

There are unfortunately many depressed or broke South Africans here but they're too scared to say anything because they invariably get told they are the problem and they should fit in or f..off.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Bronwyn&Co

[KarinWise]

Bronwyn&Co

I love you! You have the courage to say how many people feel-and yes, are too afraid to say.

They will get told to fit in or f.....off. Without a doubt!

I know I should feel lucky to be here, but this place feels so terribly bland. For me, it has no colour and passion.

I just feel dead inside. This place is sooooo wrong for me.

All those things you mentioned, I agree to all of them, but there is something even deeper that is missing here? I most likely sound like a depressive, but I am anything but.

Loved my life in SA, had a great successful business, and felt alive every day.

I know SA is not in a great place, but it is vibrant.

Maybe I am just a third world kind of person. I lived in Spain for a year before Australia, and loved every minute of it.

What I am trying to say-if the place feels wrong, even if you feel lucky to be here, is it worth the heavy heart every day?

We all do this for our kids, but how will they thrive if their parents are unhappy?

Believe me, whatever great facade you put up, they know.

So, the search for my "happy place " continues.

I think it is important to be honest with yourself.

[Bronwyn&Co]

I've received many PM's over the years, Karin, but people fear the backlash so they keep quiet. I'm also a happy, sociable person, not too weird I hope I know what you mean about the 'bland'. I am a completely different person nowadays. It took me about 2 years just to slow down the pace from SA to Aus.

It DOES get easier. Travelling to beautiful places and mixing with stimulating people helps.

That stupid old song sometimes plays in my head 'If you can't be with the one you love, then love the one you're with'. What's really the alternative?

(((Hugs)))

Ps. When possible we go to Vanuatu for our third world 'fix'. I love it there.

Pps. Our kids will thank us and that in turn makes it worthwhile.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Bronwyn&Co

[SurferMan]

Hey B and KarinWise,

I know you're chickas but let me say you both have cahoonas and I mean that in a good way. Being open about experiences is a good thing. I so hope things change for you. Please give it some more time, yes it is for the kids, but SA is on a slope that despite best efforts keeps sliding downhill. When Zooma opens his beak, they lose another 500k jobs, instead creating them...

[Bronwyn&Co]

Surferman I've been here almost 8 years But things are definitely getting better. Every year we improve things to be more the way we want them. In retrospect we should have considered more countries.

[KarinWise]

Guys, you have all been fantastic with your comments and input on this subject.

It's the first time I have participated in this forum, and the kind words and great advice have been qawesome.

Brownwyn, it's a pity you live so far away, you sound like my kind of girl. Bet you love a good night out on the town, a delicious wine, and plenty of laughing?

Surferman, what a great compliment, I always wanted a pair of those cahoonas. LOL.

Anyway, I know Australia is not for me, and I refuse to get stuck here. There is a big old world out there, and sometimes you just have to go with your gut feel.

So, in order to re-coup the tons of money we have lost by coming over here, I am about to start working some serious overtime. Not to mention some massive research into places to live. SA will not be one of them, although a large piece of my heart will always be there.

Giving myself a two year time limit. How exciting!! I can already feel a spring coming back to my step.

[MrsJ]

Karin, I just want to say that life is too damn short to be unhappy. I think your plan is a great one, if you still aren't happy in 2 years, move on! I hope you find the right place eventually

[Neels]

I must say WOW! Awesome tread this is.. jeinor40 good going.

I would like to add my 50c (ZAR ...Lmao) SurferMan, Johnno, Karin & Bronwyn you all have so much insight - and it's been a topic me and the missus had a couple of times. Been on 3 LSD's, done the whole 9 yards and now eventually got a job offer and sponsor for 457. Just got started with that.

Here's the thing: I have a reasonably successful business here. We have been looking at making the move to Oz since my first visit there about 9 years ago. I have family who are citizens in Melbourne and Sydney. And a whole lot of great friends - S/Africans and Aussies... But we heard of a couple of families who came back from Oz having had such bad things to say, not liking it and being miserable about the place and the people. And that stuck, always at the back of the mind.

Then about 18 months ago I ran into one of the couples who came back from OZ, and they have nothing (they are on this forum and when I say nothing it = nil), they have been back here for 3 years and want to go back to Oz but don't have the means. Now they cry. But you know what, he is the guy who drives around town to go buy fire wood with a beer between the knees, not stopping at stop signs and willing to rather pay a bribe than be lawful. That was his reason for coming back, "everything is so strict" "you can't be yourself"...

My business (here I'm called a small to medium enterprise) has dropped 38% in turnover, over a period of about 18 months. Why? Because of my BBBEE status. We are a level 5 and I need to be level 4 do continue doing the business that I did before. At what cost? I must sell my soul to the devil and either give my employees majority share or take in a Black partner with majority share. And that is the reality...

What does 38% mean? If I moved 5 years ago. I could buy a house in some of the most expensive suburbs in Melbourne, Sydney or Perth.. Now my business is not even worth selling, let alone keeping it running.

So, thanks for all the replies to this topic. Just the right thing at the right time..

[Mel-B]

Interesting read! Landing in Melbourne in September to activate our visa. I can then also have an opinion

[SurferMan]

Needs I was in the same boat,

Ran my own consulting gig quite happily. Out of blue a "brother" calls me up from dept. Labour and offers to err, help me find a black business partner. I ask him how he got my details, and why is he calling...long story short I got upset cos he had gotten my income figures from somewhere and cos I was turning big numbers on my own, he said I needed a partner to keep "doing business" I was shocked mate, beyond belief. He was basically trying to extort me into an arrangement. That combined with the new requirement to have permission from the Minister to hire wit ous like me into highly paid contract was enough for me to get going. Every single one of my mates in the last ten to fifteen years who were in IT consulting and took on a black partner went bust, every one of them. All had to start over.

[Sunnyskies]

Karin

I know that feeling, and have spent my time standing in the kitchen and crying!

It took me 2 years to get over the move but even then things were still not quite right and given enough of an incentive I would have gone back. What kept me here? Sheer bloody mindedness, the desire for a passport and the refusal to admit defeat.

It has been a slog, but now when I look at my life I realise that I have friends here who care for me as much as some of my South African friends, I have a good job (few tweaks and I hope it will be a great job much like the one I left behind) and I have peace of mind. Someone else said it but I'll copy her here, we are quietly happy.

I think the hardest thing is the lack of friends. Some people don't battle and have a raft of friends within days of arriving (I'm exaggerating but you hear it all the time on the forum). You unfortunately can't force a friendship and it takes time, time that you are really desperate to have someone who gets you without trying. It made my marriage stronger, as we were forced to be more dependant on each other but also more truthful about our feelings as there was no one else to go and vent to. I can count on my two hands our friends here, but that is ok I know they are true friends.

We had a holiday in SA 18 months after arriving, and I felt like nothing had changed and we could easily slot back in. We had a holiday in SA 3 years later and had a great time but looking at SA again we knew we would never go back. Yes, SA has a vibe and I missed it to my core, but when I reflected on it on our second trip back I didn't feel it was the sheer joy of life that it had always been to me. Maybe my inner core had changed.

So what am I saying, yes definitely Aus is not for everyone but it does get better and it grows on you. I've learnt to love the raw beauty of this country, I've learnt to love the freedom to move without fear, I've learnt to enjoy engaging with people I know are being friendly without wanting to be friends, I believe I'm easier in my own skin, and I've learnt to understand I have a future here beyond surviving the day. Will I cry again, I'm pretty sure I will, but that is also ok.

[HansaPlease]

Karin and Bronwyn, I hear some of what you're saying.

I struggled in my first couple of years. Hated the place. It was more circumstantial that anything but it completely consumed me. Radio stations annoyed me. TV annoyed me. I got angry when I heard people being happy on the radio. Got angry when people told of how easy it is in Aus to make it career-wise as long as you worked hard.... I certainly wasn't getting anywhere!

I hated hoons in Commodores (Actually, I still do!). Hated the fact that I had to share a train seat with losers on the V-line. People who had all the chances in the world in their first world country but instead "chose" to be losers. I know now that this happens everywhere and to a certain extent, you choose the lifestyle you were taught to choose.

I hated that I did not have any best friends. I held on to the ones back home and kept in touch but it seemed that I was doing all the contacting whilst they were getting on with their lives.

My wife felt for me but didn't really understand. She's an Aussie, and has her family here to an extent. I didn't really admit any of this on the forums - not because I feared the comments, but because I feared admitting that coming here was a mistake.

I knew my wife wouldn't understand me wanting to move back to the UK (have lots of friends there too as I spent 7 years there) so I drew up a list of pros and cons of leaving her and going back. Everything pointed to going back. I just couldn't leave her though. I don't really think she even knows that I considered this today.

Anyway. I don't really know what the turning point was. Having kids, I guess, helped me concentrate on them, rather than me. Work got better, a few promotions later, I'm doing well. Doubled my salary, literally. Started getting fit and losing weight (17kg and counting!) Just in time too because I could not carry on like I was, mentally, physically, emotionally.

Along with the other changes, the big one is we moved to a new area. Love where we love now. That makes a big difference.

Really, that breaking point was only about 3 or 4 years ago.

Anyway, I don't really know where I was going with this...

I guess my point is I at least understand that if you don't feel like you belong, you just don't. The only way to change that feeling is to change your circumstances. Sometimes even that doesn't work.

I just slowly changed my view, or my acceptance of things the way they are. I still miss things about SA terribly, but those things are only really achievable on holiday and paying in Aus $$$.

I'm now thankful for what Australia provides for us and I do love the place. Sure, the perfect mix would be the good bits of Aus combined with the good bits in SA.

I hope you find happiness in Aus like I am slowly starting to. If not, I hope you find your country !

Edited August 21, 2014 by HansaPlease

[KarinWise]

Wow, Sunnyskies, that was really heartfelt. You cannot make old friends. There are things about Aus that are special. I have travelled it extensively, and the sheer joy of just stopping anywhere, in the middle of no-where is amazing.

I too have cried, I have been soooo angry to feel I have to leave a country that I love. People that I love. To come to Australia and really feel poor, not to be able to enjoy the pleasures of great meals in top-notch restaurants.

Living off the Rand makes everything eye-wateringly expensive.

My experience of my business in SA was similar to Surfermans. This is what decided me on leaving SA in the first place.

After 26 years of running a reasonably successful company with 30 staff, I got a call from a business broker, saying he had a lot to offer my company.

Intrigued , I set up an appointment, and he brought along a black lady. She was incredibly connected in government, and had one of the very famous names we hear about in SA all the time, as her surname.

I was not quite sure what she wanted from me. Was she going to be a client? Did she want to be a BEE partner? Did she want to buy into my company?

I was facing major pressure at the time to have a black partner, as I had some very high profile clients.

Turns out these two were going to several companies and offering her surname on the letterhead of chosen company. And shares, of course. That's all! And what did she want in return?

Only a car allowance, an expense account, and a R 100 000.00 a month. This was several years ago.

When I asked her what her input would be for that amount of money, she said she was far too busy to have input, but her name mentioned in the right circles would be worth it.

I am sorry, I would call this a form of blackmail, every one knows how desperate business owners in SA are to have that BEE credential.

I was gobsmacked at the audacity of it all. Eventually the pressure of getting in BEE partners got the better of me, and I sold the company for a fraction of what it was actually worth. Heard of too many people in my industry taking that black partner on board, turned out to be a disaster EVERY time.

I did not hear of one successful partnership.

Very sad state of affairs. The white person is not very welcome in SA anymore.

I am afraid things are only going to get worse.

Neels, what can I say? I feel for you guys. I really do. Maybe if you go with an open mind, and do not expect to love Australia, it will grow on you. I expected to love it, having visited often, but LSD trips and holidays are just that. They are not real life.

Also be very careful what area you choose to live in. I come from sunny JHB, so the grey skies and erratic climate of Melbourne really gets to me. I think people under estimate the effect the weather will have on them.

I just know when I wake up to another grey day in Melbourne, I could just shoot myself.

So above and belong the fact that I think Australia was the wrong choice for me, I think Melbourne was really, really the wrong choice.

I just know when I see the odd really sunny sky here, I am a different person. I am talking about a whole day of sun shine, not sun, rain, wind, more rain, clouds, and then a bit of sun again. ( this is in a matter of an hour, not a day)

Sorry Melbournians, I know you some of you guys really love Melbourne.Maybe that weather thing is just me, or does anybody feel the weather has a major effect on them?

[rozellem]

Karin, definitely move from Melbourne. Perhaps closer to where you have family?

[KarinWise]

Hansa, I have just read your post.

I identify with every one of you comments. Everything annoys me terribly too, but I prefer being annoyed to sad. It's the sad days-I call them the "bad Australia days" that really get to me. They come upon me like a grey cloud, or a wet blanket. They come out of nowhere. They envelope me so completely, I just feel heavy. It's a physical heavy ness, it feels like I have put on 10 kilos overnight. I would not be surprised if I did though, have they ever heard of the heathy option here in restaurants? Its all bread , pies, and more bread. A salad is sooo expensive, and mostly consists of a few rocket leaves and a tomato cut in half. Boy, they do not do hospitality well here.

Do you not also hate the filthy restaurants? Some of them are a real shock to the system.

Yes-I believe you are right, get busy lest you wither in despair. Congrats on your children, they do take your focus off the bad days.

I have to focus on making some Aus dollars, I would hate to be in Aus, not only unhappy but also destitute.

I am opening a business in October, it's been two years in the making, and let's hope we can make it a success. One step closer to leaving. Yippeeeeeeee! Plan is to build it up and sell.

Everyone on this forum, you guys are amazing. That's what I love about SA people. Heart felt honesty, and compassion.

Love you guys.

[Sunnyskies]

Karin, I love Melbourne but I know what you mean when you say another grey sky...

It took us about 3 years to adjust to the weather, and now I actually quite enjoy it. I've also worked out that you must never let a grey day stop you from going out. I normally find that even though the sky is grey it really isn't that cold when you get moving and it can be very invigorating.

[Bronwyn&Co]

There is so much to digest in this thread, I want to have a proper think before replying again. But I did want to ask Karin - are you still spending Rands? If you don't feel comfortable replying that's all good. Also - is your new business in Melbourne?

I think our turning point was moving from Adl to Brisbane. I am SOooooo much happier here.

I'm happy that there is finally a bit of honesty on here. My frustration with the forum is when people get drowned out by popular opinion. It's not to say most people aren't happy (they are), but a few years ago a thread like this would have turned into a big 'you don't deserve a visa' bunfight ? So much better to live & let live.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Bronwyn&Co

[SurferMan]

Hey KarinWise,

Cahoonas hey, think you could handle the guy syndrome - chasing girls all day? Lol, just kidding.

[Johnno]

There is so much to digest in this thread, I want to have a proper think before replying again. But I did want to ask Karin - are you still spending Rands? If you don't feel comfortable replying that's all good. Also - is your new business in Melbourne?

I think our turning point was moving from Adl to Brisbane. I am SOooooo much happier here.

I'm happy that there is finally a bit of honesty on here. My frustration with the forum is when people get drowned out by popular opinion. It's not to say most people aren't happy (they are), but a few years ago a thread like this would have turned into a big 'you don't deserve a visa' bunfight So much better to live & let live.

Totally agree Bron, just don't mention hooning and increasing crime levels in Oz.....those are the launch and destroy hot buttons

But yes, just because we have a fondness for SA (for whatever reason) does not mean that we are not very aware of the problems in SA. After all that's why we are sitting in Oz! If we point out something that we do not like about Oz, it does not mean that we're unhappy or ungrateful and we really do not need to be told that we have the option to go back and live in SA if we are "so unhappy". So yes, it's a really nice environment this thread to allow yourself to speak openly without the fear of being shot down as happens so often on so many of these types of discussions.

[Johnno]

Karin and Bronwyn, I hear some of what you're saying.

I struggled in my first couple of years. Hated the place. It was more circumstantial that anything but it completely consumed me. Radio stations annoyed me. TV annoyed me. I got angry when I heard people being happy on the radio. Got angry when people told of how easy it is in Aus to make it career-wise as long as you worked hard.... I certainly wasn't getting anywhere!

I hated hoons in Commodores (Actually, I still do!). Hated the fact that I had to share a train seat with losers on the V-line. People who had all the chances in the world in their first world country but instead "chose" to be losers. I know now that this happens everywhere and to a certain extent, you choose the lifestyle you were taught to choose.

I hated that I did not have any best friends. I held on to the ones back home and kept in touch but it seemed that I was doing all the contacting whilst they were getting on with their lives.

My wife felt for me but didn't really understand. She's an Aussie, and has her family here to an extent. I didn't really admit any of this on the forums - not because I feared the comments, but because I feared admitting that coming here was a mistake.

I knew my wife wouldn't understand me wanting to move back to the UK (have lots of friends there too as I spent 7 years there) so I drew up a list of pros and cons of leaving her and going back. Everything pointed to going back. I just couldn't leave her though. I don't really think she even knows that I considered this today.

Anyway. I don't really know what the turning point was. Having kids, I guess, helped me concentrate on them, rather than me. Work got better, a few promotions later, I'm doing well. Doubled my salary, literally. Started getting fit and losing weight (17kg and counting!) Just in time too because I could not carry on like I was, mentally, physically, emotionally.

Along with the other changes, the big one is we moved to a new area. Love where we love now. That makes a big difference.

Really, that breaking point was only about 3 or 4 years ago.

Anyway, I don't really know where I was going with this...

I guess my point is I at least understand that if you don't feel like you belong, you just don't. The only way to change that feeling is to change your circumstances. Sometimes even that doesn't work.

I just slowly changed my view, or my acceptance of things the way they are. I still miss things about SA terribly, but those things are only really achievable on holiday and paying in Aus $$$.

I'm now thankful for what Australia provides for us and I do love the place. Sure, the perfect mix would be the good bits of Aus combined with the good bits in SA.

I hope you find happiness in Aus like I am slowly starting to. If not, I hope you find your country !

Hansa, this is brilliant, I have nothing to add!! Different lives different circumstances but same outcome, it's as if I wrote this, it sounds exactly like me. Apart from the bit about losing 17kgs......I wish I could lose 17kg!!!

[HansaPlease]

Hansa, this is brilliant, I have nothing to add!! Different lives different circumstances but same outcome, it's as if I wrote this, it sounds exactly like me. Apart from the bit about losing 17kgs......I wish I could lose 17kg!!!

I think we've butted heads a few times on the forum before Johnno, and I think it's because we are very similar!

Good onya mate.

[Johnno]

I think we've butted heads a few times on the forum before Johnno, and I think it's because we are very similar!

Good onya mate.

I'm pretty sure we have and maybe it was at a time when you were dealing with your demons and convincing yourself that Oz was best for you and SA was the pits! Whereas I was quite happy to see the best and worst in both words

[Bronwyn&Co]

Johnno just don't start about those hoons again or I'm going to track you down & post you a big wooden spoon for Christmas!

Edited August 22, 2014 by Bronwyn&Co

[HansaPlease]

I'm pretty sure we have and maybe it was at a time when you were dealing with your demons and convincing yourself that Oz was best for you and SA was the pits! Whereas I was quite happy to see the best and worst in both words

Not quite, I think we still disagree on some things but have strong opinions on what we believe.