Retention Of Citizenship

[SuzyQ2]

Dear SuzyQ ,

I was also not being nasty but merely stating a fact. The fact that one choose to leave their country of birth , does not mean that they have to give up their citizenship. Perhaps you need to choose your words more carefully "if you are proudly South African then you should stay there"- that comes across as hasty !!!

Just for information , even if you were born in SA , and you had citizenship of another country , you could choose not to have SA Citizenship and just be a permanent resident.This you would have decided at the age of 18 , becuase upto 18 you could have dual nationality with no probelems. Except that the Australians only allowed Dual Nationality from the year 2000. They did exactly what the America's did , their nationals could not have dual natioanlity.

Regarding your spouse/or partners application is just goes to prove how wonderfully efficient the Australians can be, they dont want people coming in that are married or defactos for the convience of a quick route to Australian residency.

I have to agree with Hansaplease

Ï'm proudly South African, but I'm not proud of South Africa..."

I never said anybody had to give up their citizenship ...... & I chose my words with due care, perhaps they were taken out of context and if the cap fits, then wear it.

Having been in the legal field for many a year back in SA & now in Oz, I am well aware of the dual nationality implications. At 18, I had other agendas & then when these agendas moved on, there were other factors I had to take into account before renounicing my SA citizenship. I am not on trial and don't believe I owe anybody any explanations as to how I still have 2 passports at this stage!!!!!

And by the way I am not complaining about the efficeint Australians, merely stating it wass not that easy for us either, as you automatically assumed.

[SuzyQ2]

You're stating the obvious here and did not answer my question at all.

My question was for you to give me a reference to where I can verify that your opinion is correct as all the information I could find seems to disagree with what you said. I am not saying you're wrong, I am just asking you to prove your answer. Quite often people would post info on the forum based on something they heard from a friend of a friend etc, so I just want to be sure about thaine accuracy of what you've said. My question was:

[From the links that it have provided it's quite clear what the answer is .... by me providing any further linksmight just complicat matters. Once again my suggestion is .... phone your bank!

Oh and for the record, my parents are Oz Citizens, lived in SA for many a year, never had SA citizenship. Came back to Oz when they retired, did not formally emigrate, still have their SA bank accounts (which were not 'automatically blocked') get their pension paid into their Oz bank accounts ..

[Mara]

SuzyQ2, perhaps you should take a deep breath, you seem upset with the answers you got, but if you tell people that they should have stayed in South Africa, you are sure to open a hornet's nest.

The bank will AUTOMATICALLY BLOCK your bank account, but ONLY if you officially emigrate, THEN they are required to do so by law. Obviously, in the case of your parents they fall through the gaps, as they had no need to "officially emigrate" as they were not South African citizens. Even South African citizens often choose not to officially emigrate. The only reason really for doing so, is if you are going to receive an inheritance in RSA and if you are wanting to move your pension fund money that you are paid out, out of South Africa. In order to get this money out of RSA you need to be able to supply the document number the Reserve Bank supplied you with when your migration intention was lodged with them.

[Kit]

Ok, so like... if we get retention of citizenship papers, do they need to be renewed every 5 years or not? (thanks LeeInOz - I'm just double-checking)

[Superkruz]

Once again my suggestion is .... phone your bank!

Not a helpful reply at all... makes me doubt your earlier opinion.

Oh and for the record, my parents are Oz Citizens, lived in SA for many a year, never had SA citizenship. Came back to Oz when they retired, did not formally emigrate, still have their SA bank accounts (which were not 'automatically blocked') get their pension paid into their Oz bank accounts ..

Being a legal person yourself, you will understand that your parents' experience (when they left SA) does not constitute proof of what the law in SA is at the moment. Rules change and people have different situations and as pointed out earlier, they were not SA citizens which makes it difficult to accept your opinion as accurate.

As I said before - I dont disagree with you but I just need a reference to where I can confirm your facts as all my research indicates the contrary.

[Superkruz]

The bank will AUTOMATICALLY BLOCK your bank account, but ONLY if you officially emigrate, THEN they are required to do so by law.

I agree.

[LeeInOz]

Ok, so like... if we get retention of citizenship papers, do they need to be renewed every 5 years or not? (thanks LeeInOz - I'm just double-checking)

I do not believe you have to reapply every 5 years and who ever it was that has this condition must be a special case, or just confusing it with PASSPORT renewal. Even if you did not apply to retain citizenship still apply to get it back if you from within SOuth Africawere a citizen. I have asked several people who have these certificates and none of them have an exipiry date.

http://www.sahc.org.au/citizenship/Dual_Citizenship.htm

[LeeInOz]

However, 5 years ago when my son went back to SA for a 21st, he was held in a private room at the airport and interrogated for half an hour because he was trying to enter SA on an Australian passport and they wanted his SAfrican passport. After him arguing his way through they let him in for a week and told him the next time he tried to come in on an Aussie passport he would be arrested. So when he went last year to the world cup, he had to apply for a temporary passport, my daughter went this year and had to apply for a temporary passport.

.. however, when I went back in January this year, the passport control lady told me that I have to come in on my South African passport next time. Do I have one anymore - nope, thought I gave up the right to dual citizenship by not applying. Turns out the kids do not loose theirs if the are under the age of 21 when you become citizens and they have until they are 21 to apply for dual -

Go figure .....

Heather I know someone who has had the same issue. He was exiting South Africa with his family, they kept their citizenship, he did not. When they all submitted South African passports and he gave hios Australian, they refused to accept it and insisted on his South African. So he does this every time now, goes in on Australian and comes out on South African waiting to be stopped. Being South Africa there is no proper training of the staff so anything goes.

Also you do not need to have applied 3 months before becoming a citizen of another country to keep RSA citizenship. He wording is "apply and be granted permission before...". We had applied for Australian citizenship and to retain RSA. Luckily the RSA retention was quicker.

[HansaPlease]

I never said anybody had to give up their citizenship ...... & I chose my words with due care, perhaps they were taken out of context and if the cap fits, then wear it.

I'm not quite sure what cap I'm supposed to be wearing, according to you?

Still don't understand why you believe that anybody who's proud of being South African should stay there. I'm proud of being a South African, but don't want to risk my life (or that of my family) by staying there. Pretty simple really.

[Bronwyn&Co]

Hi guys

I apologise if this has been handled before, but I am still a bit confused about something.

Let's say a person wants to apply for Australian Citizenship, but doesn't want to officially emigrate from South Africa.

Surely when the application is made to the SA Government to hold dual citizenship, that automatically tells them you are emigrating? If that happens then are bank accounts frozen etc (as they now know the person is non-resident)..?

I hope I am making my question clear. Thanks.

[Enrica]

Hi Bronwyn

I never immigrated officially from RSA. I applied for dual citizenship, and it was granted. I still have a bank account in RSA ( 12 years later)

My account has never been frozen, or blocked . So to answer you question, no they dont take it that you have immigrated officially.

I declared to the tax office that I am working overseas and not earning an income in RSA.

Hope that helps

[HansaPlease]

Surely when the application is made to the SA Government to hold dual citizenship, that automatically tells them you are emigrating? If that happens then are bank accounts frozen etc (as they now know the peron is non-resident)..?

Hi Bronwyn,

Your question does make sense. But thankfully, I don't think they see it that way. I also didn't officially emigrate, yet applied for British citizenship and therefore retention of SA citizenship. Under reasons why I wanted to keep my SA citizenship on the application forms, I said that I still had strong ties to SA (even though I don't live there) and wish to travel to and from a fair bit - and also still consider myself to be part South African, and may or may not return one day.

I was granted retention, got British citizenship, and didn't have my bank accounts, etc, frozen. I'm still "active" in SA in some ways on paper - still have a firearm there, still have bank accounts which I use and sometimes earn money into, etc - even though, effectively, I don't work or live there.

Hope this helps in some way.

[Mara]

The RSA government would have to be very efficient, to advise the bank, where you hold your bank account, that it now has to be frozen, because you have "officially" taken citizenship of another country, and therefore they deem that you have "officially emigrated". The department of immigration in RSA does not know where you bank or whom you bank with and unless they actually ask this on your application form, they would not have any way of knowing. Secondly, you could apply for citizenship of another country, whilst still living in South Africa, I know quite a few people who did this because they could apply for via their parents citizenship of another country.

The only time that your bank accounts will be automatically blocked, is if you apply to emigrate "officially" via your bank to the Reserve Bank. The only real reason for doing this is if you want to move the funds received from closed pension funds or policies or in the case of receiving an inheritence. Other than that, you probably never have to tell them that you have left permanently.

This is my take on it, and yes, we officially emgrated.

[Bronwyn&Co]

Interesting...but Mara & Erica, you have been living out of the country for some time now. There is now FICA (financial intelligence compliance act), which deems that you can only hold an active bank account in SA if you can prove, annually, that you are resident. This is done by supplying your bank with a utility bill showing your physical address, and a copy of your ID book. Each year our bank asks for these items. If you do not provide them your account gets frozen. I suspect, Enrica you may have slipped through the cracks in the system.

The point about people actually living in SA and wanting dual citizenship does make sense though. Surely there are plenty of those..

I would not underestimate the government's ability to match citizenship records with bank accounts though. They seem to be very bad at some things, but world-class good at this type of thing. I think they are very good at tax & banking stuff.

[Enrica]

Interesting...but Mara & Erica, you have been living out of the country for some time now. There is now FICA (financial intelligence compliance act), which deems that you can only hold an active bank account in SA if you can prove, annually, that you are resident. This is done by supplying your bank with a utility bill showing your physical address, and a copy of your ID book. Each year our bank asks for these items. If you do not provide them your account gets frozen. I suspect, Enrica you may have slipped through the cracks in the system.

The point about people actually living in SA and wanting dual citizenship does make sense though. Surely there are plenty of those..

I would not underestimate the government's ability to match citizenship records with bank accounts though. They seem to be very bad at some things, but world-class good at this type of thing. I think they are very good at tax & banking stuff.

No , I did not slip through the cracks. Non-residents of SA were given a window period of 6 months when this whole Fica thing came out. I had to specifically get on a plane and go and present myself at the bank with passport and book of life.This was a few years ago, and and I have not had any problems becuase of the exception that was made for non-residents at the time.

If you are entitle to have another passport, why would you not apply for dual citizenship, even if you are living in RSA? This ruling regarding dual citizenship, is no a recent development , this was something that the old National Party South African Government introduced. When I turned 18 I applied for dual citizenship in 1977 as I was entitled to an Italian Passport. So as a good citizen, I excersized my rights and applied.

Basically if you do the right thing and apply for the right to have dual citizenship, you will not have a problem with SA Immigration. The problem arizes if you have two passports and have not applied for dual citizenship, you can be given 24 hours to get out of the country as the South African Government can revoke your citizenship and residence in that country. Not worth taking the risk.

The only condition is that you must leave and enter SA on a South African Passport and you present your certificate and forgein passpoirt to immigration. No problem.

[andrea_vk]

I do not believe you have to reapply every 5 years and who ever it was that has this condition must be a special case, or just confusing it with PASSPORT renewal. Even if you did not apply to retain citizenship still apply to get it back if you from within SOuth Africawere a citizen. I have asked several people who have these certificates and none of them have an exipiry date.

http://www.sahc.org.au/citizenship/Dual_Citizenship.htm

Hello,

I am just trying to plan ahead to apply for citizenship. I was not born in South Africa, but I have South African citizenship.

When I applied then I applied for dual citizenship and I did get a letter (which I need to look for), but I am sure the letter was valid for 5 years only till 2003.

I used to carry the letter with me when travelling, but no one asked for it, so I stop carrying it around ( I wonder where it is) . Since 2003 I traveled many times in and out of South Africa and no one stopped me. I left and entered South African with the SA passport.

My questions are:

Am I allowed to apply for a 3rd passport?

DO I need to apply for dual citizenship again since that letter had an expiration date?

Thanks

Andrea

[Enrica]

You need to apply for your Dual Citizenship everytime it expires from teh South African Embassy.Its a money making thing!!!

Holding 3 passports, well that depends on which 3 you are holding. Some countries will legally not allow you to hold more that 2 , some about the United nations blah blah balh.

[andrea_vk]

Thanks Enrica. But does South Africa and Australia allow 3 passports. My original passport is from Argentina. And even if I wanted it is not possible to resign to my Argentinian citizenship. You cannot lose it. So I do not think Argentina has a problem with 3 passports.

[HansaPlease]

Hi andrea,

I'll let you know the answer to that shortly, I have British and SA, and have recently applied for retention, yet to be granted, and I'm applying for my Aus citizenship... will let you know the outcome....

[21yearsoutofrsa]

There is a difference between been a citizen and having a passport.

If you are a South African by birth, British and Irish by decent, there is not a lot the South African authorities can do about it. They can however refuse to issue you with a South African passport.

[andrea_vk]

Hi andrea,

I'll let you know the answer to that shortly, I have British and SA, and have recently applied for retention, yet to be granted, and I'm applying for my Aus citizenship... will let you know the outcome....

Thanks Hansa

[Superkruz]

I'll let you know the answer to that shortly, I have British and SA, and have recently applied for retention, yet to be granted, and I'm applying for my Aus citizenship... will let you know the outcome....

Will be watching this space for an update as I have SA and Australian citizenship and am moving to the USA in a few weeks (and if all goes to plan will be applying for citizenship in 4 years).

[HansaPlease]

As it happens, I received my letter from the Australian government today saying that my Aus citizenship has been granted.

Thing is, before I crack open the champagne, I haven't yet received my retention of SA Citizenship permission letter, so before I can attend my Aus ceremony to make it official, I have to wait for my letter from the SA High Commission first (well, I don't have to, but as I would like to keep my SA citizenship, I want to)...

Watch this space...

[andrea_vk]

As it happens, I received my letter from the Australian government today saying that my Aus citizenship has been granted.

Thing is, before I crack open the champagne, I haven't yet received my retention of SA Citizenship permission letter, so before I can attend my Aus ceremony to make it official, I have to wait for my letter from the SA High Commission first (well, I don't have to, but as I would like to keep my SA citizenship, I want to)...

Watch this space...

Congratulations Hansa!!

Can I ask you how long it took after you lodged for citizenship?

Also did you have to present a police clearance from South Africa?

Thanks

Andrea

[HansaPlease]

Thanks Andrea...

I lodged my application in early December, had my appointment and wrote the citizenship test on the 4th of Jan (cough got 100% cough), and got my letter on Jan 11th. You then wait to hear from your local council about a ceremony, which you have up to a year to attend.

I didn't have to submit a SA police clearance, I think because my visa was a subclass 100 - spousal...