Retention Of Citizenship

[Kit]

I'm on a bit of a roll admin-wise, and just wanted to find out whether there's a 'too soon' with regards to applying for retention of citizenship.

If it doesn't matter I'd like to do it sooner rather than later because we have family there still, and considering how things 'are' in SA and bearing in mind home affairs' inefficiency etc etc etc, I'd rather get the paper saying 'approved' than do it later and find SA's gone the way of Zim and we've missed our chance. Also, once it's done it's done, it can be filed away safely

[pkn]

Kit, it may be too soon, as you are 3 years away from taking on Oz citizenship, so you would only cross that bridge then. For now, you may want to inform the SA High Commission that you are a SA citizen with PR living in Oz. Or you may not?

[Superkruz]

I'm on a bit of a roll admin-wise, and just wanted to find out whether there's a 'too soon' with regards to applying for retention of citizenship.

If it doesn't matter I'd like to do it sooner rather than later because we have family there still, and considering how things 'are' in SA and bearing in mind home affairs' inefficiency etc etc etc, I'd rather get the paper saying 'approved' than do it later and find SA's gone the way of Zim and we've missed our chance. Also, once it's done it's done, it can be filed away safely

Kit, there no such thing as "too soon". I did mine as soon as a landed back in 2006 and also did it for my son when he landed in 2009, even though he had 4 years till Aus citizenship. As you said, once it's done, it's done, and can be filed away safely - one less thing to worry about. I would recommend you do as soon as you can. Doing it now can do no harm and might just make your life easier down the track when citizenship applications come around - it did for me.

[Superkruz]

For now, you may want to inform the SA High Commission that you are a SA citizen with PR living in Oz.

PKN, did you do this? How do you do it, ie what forms etc.? I wonder how many people have done it?

[21yearsoutofrsa]

When I think about this sort of thing I ask myself "what's the down side"

I can see no downside to applying early. The worst that can happen is there is an expiry date, in which case you may have to do it again. So the downside is the time you have to put into doing the application.

I didn't apply because I didn't know I had to, the law had only just changed when I became a NZ citizen. Even now I have to remember not to put down South African when I fill in certain documents.

[Superkruz]

The worst that can happen is there is an expiry date, in which case you may have to do it again. So the downside is the time you have to put into doing the application.

This would be true if there was an expiry date, but there isn't. Once the application is approved it remain valid indefinitely.

[Jordy]

We will need to cross this bridge soon, and was wondering what your motivation was for retaining it? I am struggling to find a good reason.

[Nessa]

Something I hadn't realised with retaining citizenship is that you HAVE to travel in and out of RSA on your RSA passport. So once you become an Aus citizen, if you think you might have to return to RSA in a hurry, you need to make sure you keep both passports valid. More admin!

[21yearsoutofrsa]

This would be true if there was an expiry date, but there isn't. Once the application is approved it remain valid indefinitely.

To my mind this makes it easy. If you're on a roll do it now. There is no downside.

We will need to cross this bridge soon, and was wondering what your motivation was for retaining it? I am struggling to find a good reason.

I guess this is a case of relinquishing rights for no consideration if you don't do it. Is there any downside is the question. The only downside is the administration you have to perform to retain the citizenship and to continue to renew your RSA passport. Retaining citizenship gives you the right to vote in RSA elections (you may have to travel there to perform your vote.

I notice nobody ever raises the question as to why they should take out Australian citizenship, rather than just retain their RSA citizenship and continue with their PR (a lot of Brits do this, but almost no South Africans). Maybe I'm just been cynical.

Something I hadn't realised with retaining citizenship is that you HAVE to travel in and out of RSA on your RSA passport. So once you become an Aus citizen, if you think you might have to return to RSA in a hurry, you need to make sure you keep both passports valid. More admin!

I believe technically you're supposed to use your RSA passport to travel to all countries, other than entering and exiting Australia. Yeah right!!!!!

[Kat B]

For now, you may want to inform the SA High Commission that you are a SA citizen with PR living in Oz.

I would also like to know how to do this, where etc.

[Superkruz]

We will need to cross this bridge soon, and was wondering what your motivation was for retaining it? I am struggling to find a good reason.

For people with no more ties to SA it would be hard to find a good reason to retain their SA citizenship. My reasons for retention are twofold.

• Practical considerations - I still own a fixed property in SA and have bank accounts. If I lost SA citizenship I would be treated as a foreigner and would only have "blocked" accounts. I am not even 100% sure how it works but it seemed easier to keep my citizenship and not have these issues.
  
• Emotional considerations - I was born there, lived there most of my life, my daugther, brother and sisters live there, so I guess I still want to maintain some "official connection". Who knows what might happen in the future when we grow old... we might want to move back to SA (unlikely, I know, but possible), so having the citizenship kind of maintains that emotional connection for me.
  

This is a tough decision to make and everyone has different things to consider, but I decided that "I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it"

[Garrick]

I was wonderring what this was about, and then realised that I already have dual citizenship... (French/SA). So this was done for me years ago by my parents.

The question that goes with that is getting M & Amy their French Citizenship (been married long enough now) and then their Oz one in 2 years time (4 years total now?). Think we'll do some research after we've finished moving house.

-G

[SD_MOA]

Hello Guys,

My philosophy has always been ‘Don’t burn your bridges cos you never know when you might need them!’ So I keep renewing my SA passport.

Regards

[Superkruz]

The question that goes with that is getting M & Amy their French Citizenship (been married long enough now)

Garrick, I found this on Wikipedia. It is not the most reliable source, but makes interesting reading.

If the couple is living outside of France, a three year waiting period is required. In addition to the many documents required to prove both the applicant's nationality and the spouse's French nationality, there is a requirement for competency in the French language.

I hope your wife can speak French, or if she can't, that Wikipedia is wrong.

[Nane]

Garrick, I found this on Wikipedia. It is not the most reliable source, but makes interesting reading.

If the couple is living outside of France, a three year waiting period is required. In addition to the many documents required to prove both the applicant's nationality and the spouse's French nationality, there is a requirement for competency in the French language.

I hope your wife can speak French, or if she can't, that Wikipedia is wrong.

SuperKruz, you are correct. My husband is French and I applied and received my French citizenship in Australia after moving here from France. I had to do go for an interview in French to prove my ability to speak French. It wasn't to difficult and if you can speak and understand basic French you should be fine.

[SuzyQ2]

Just to give some pointers & a bit of emotional & otherwise gumff:-

- You don't need SA citizenship to hold a bank account in SA.

- You have to apply for a blocked bank account, it does not automatically happen.

- If you want to retain your SA citizenship, you have to obtain permission from SA Home Affairs before obtaining citizenship of another country. If you don't,

you will lose your SA citizenship.

- If you have dual nationality, you only need to use your SA passport in & out of SA. I have a friend who uses her Oz passport to in & out of SA because she coudn't be bothered with her SA one & has no problems.

- At the risk of sounding harsh ..... for emotional issues, proudly South African ....., strong ties ......, why are you here if you feel so dedicated to SA ???? Most of us came here for a new/ better life, so it should be off with the old & on with the new. It broke my heart to leave SA. I was so homesick that I went back for a visit after 3 months. When I was over there, I could not wait to come back to Oz.

- I used to pay tax in SA ... for what???? I now pay tax in Oz for a system that works. Shout me down if you want to, but it's a tad embarassing to say I am from South Africa, given the feedback people get here.

- Just for the record, my Mother is Australian & she loved South Africa .... it also broke her heart to leave, but she is so grateful to be back. I was an Oz Citizen before I ever set foot in Oz, but I am so proud of my Ozzie passport .... & have no intention of ever renewing my SA one.

So my fellow Saffas, if you are proudly South African then stay there. If you are brave enough to make the move & become an Oz Ctizen, embrace your new life and your new and country with enthusiasm. Please don't winge about how pedantic the Aussies are ... ie... crossing the t's & dotting the i's because that is what makes this country work so well!!!

[Orion25]

Just to give some pointers & a bit of emotional & otherwise gumff:-

- You don't need SA citizenship to hold a bank account in SA.

- You have to apply for a blocked bank account, it does not automatically happen.

- If you want to retain your SA citizenship, you have to obtain permission from SA Home Affairs before obtaining citizenship of another country. If you don't,

you will lose your SA citizenship.

- If you have dual nationality, you only need to use your SA passport in & out of SA. I have a friend who uses her Oz passport to in & out of SA because she coudn't be bothered with her SA one & has no problems.

- At the risk of sounding harsh ..... for emotional issues, proudly South African ....., strong ties ......, why are you here if you feel so dedicated to SA ???? Most of us came here for a new/ better life, so it should be off with the old & on with the new. It broke my heart to leave SA. I was so homesick that I went back for a visit after 3 months. When I was over there, I could not wait to come back to Oz.

- I used to pay tax in SA ... for what???? I now pay tax in Oz for a system that works. Shout me down if you want to, but it's a tad embarassing to say I am from South Africa, given the feedback people get here.

- Just for the record, my Mother is Australian & she loved South Africa .... it also broke her heart to leave, but she is so grateful to be back. I was an Oz Citizen before I ever set foot in Oz, but I am so proud of my Ozzie passport .... & have no intention of ever renewing my SA one.

So my fellow Saffas, if you are proudly South African then stay there. If you are brave enough to make the move & become an Oz Ctizen, embrace your new life and your new and country with enthusiasm. Please don't winge about how pedantic the Aussies are ... ie... crossing the t's & dotting the i's because that is what makes this country work so well!!!

SuzyQ2

We all have freedom of choice, so that we are FREE to make our own decisions, and to ask freely for advice, I really feel that your response was not at all helpfull to the question asked.

Just my 2c

T

[SuzyQ2]

SuzyQ2

We all have freedom of choice, so that we are FREE to make our own decisions, and to ask freely for advice, I really feel that your response was not at all helpfull to the question asked.

Just my 2c

T

I did not question anybody's freedom of choice ...... apart from an emotional issue, my response was factual ...... if anybody took umbrage then so be it ......

[Kit]

I think the beauty of this forum is that people give info, but also include their own impressions and reasons for doing things. Visa application aside, a lot of the migration process is emotional and is affected by your inner reasons. It's validating to put your thoughts out there and to have others' comments in response - some disagreeing, some agreeing - it kinda makes you realise your feelings on some things, it helps you 'say it' and acknowledge what you're feeling and where you stand, internally. I think this forum is way more mature than lots of forums out there, where everyone understands the sensitivity of topics and tries to express themselves without having to be told to tone it down LOL.

That being said (rambled LOL), for me, I want to keep my SA citizenship for 3 reasons:

Family - I don't want to have to get a visa in case of emergency if anything happens to any of my family there.

Persistence of identification - I was born South African, and to let something like a passport/citizenship lapse would be, for me, like discarding a piece of my identity. For me, looking at the Aus visa label in my SA passport was like looking at a medal I'd been awarded, a right to live in Australia. My mom always used to tell me when I was majorly stressing about matric exams, 'once you have it, nobody can take it away from you' - I think this is similar for me to the citizenship thing. I'm not uber-patriotic/die for my country-ish, I just aim to live at peace wherever I am, but maybe I'm sentimental and looking at an expired passport would make me sad LOL.

And finally, as others have said here, 'rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it'.

Now brb while I print the application forms LOL

[Heather]

We arrived in OZ 10 years ago, we became citizens 2 years later. When it was time for the citizenship, we did not realise that we had to request dual citizenship three months prior to becoming citizens so we were told we would automatically loose our SA citizenship but that they would never not allow us entry but if we wanted to come back and live we would have to live there for two years before we could become citizens again. However, 5 years ago when my son went back to SA for a 21st, he was held in a private room at the airport and interrogated for half an hour because he was trying to enter SA on an Australian passport and they wanted his SAfrican passport. After him arguing his way through they let him in for a week and told him the next time he tried to come in on an Aussie passport he would be arrested. So when he went last year to the world cup, he had to apply for a temporary passport, my daughter went this year and had to apply for a temporary passport. I have been back numerous times and never had a problem, however, when I went back in January this year, the passport control lady told me that I have to come in on my South African passport next time. Do I have one anymore - nope, thought I gave up the right to dual citizenship by not applying. Turns out the kids do not loose theirs if the are under the age of 21 when you become citizens and they have until they are 21 to apply for dual - however, my kids are 26, 23 and 21 and both the 26 and 23 applied for temporary SA passports to enter within the last year. So doesnt really matter does it??I spoke to SA high commission in Canberra and it appears that we have to fill out a form renouncing our citizenship and that should stop them asking for SA passports in JHB???

Go figure .....

[Superkruz]

- At the risk of sounding harsh ..... for emotional issues, proudly South African ....., strong ties ......, why are you here if you feel so dedicated to SA ???? Most of us came here for a new/ better life, so it should be off with the old & on with the new.

Suzy, go easy on me here. This is what I said : : "I was born there, lived there most of my life, my daugther, brother and sisters live there, so I guess I still want to maintain some "official connection". Who knows what might happen in the future when we grow old... we might want to move back to SA (unlikely, I know, but possible), so having the citizenship kind of maintains that emotional connection for me"

I would not regard myself as being dedicated to SA but I do, and always will, have some connection with SA in the same way I will always have a certain kind of love towards the mother of my children, even though things went pear-shaped and we divorced many years ago. I still love her for the children we have... in the same way I still love SA because it is the country where I was born, the memory of good times I had there, the fact that my precious daughter still lives there, etc. It does not mean I want to live there at the moment, just like I dont want to re-marry my ex at the moment, but I can still love it and have fonds memories of it.

Just like you, I came to Aus for a better life and all the good things it offers and I am proud to be an Aussie citizen. I settled in well and hardly ever think about my life back in SA, ie I've moved on. At the same time though, if I had a magic wand and could fix all SA's problems today I will be back there tomorrow - maybe you don't feel the same but I suspect there are many South Africans all over the world that feel the same as me.

I suppose I feel that I am a South African living in Australia. My Australian passport just allows me to live here for as long as I like, it allows me to write "Australian" on forms asking for my nationality, but deep down in my soul, I am still, and will always be, a South African. Maybe it would have felt different if I moved here when I was a child, or if my parents were Aussies, but I was 44 years old. I love Australia and will never say bad things about it but in my heart I am just a South African who lives here, and I dont think that will ever change, no matter how bad things become in SA or how great Australia, or any other country for that matter, is.

As a parent I will always love my children, despite any faults they have, simply because they are my flesh & blood. They might do bad things, make me angry, but I will still love them. In the same way I have a special place in my heart for SA, despite its faults, simply because I am South African - thats it.

If I move to the USA, for example, and a Yank asks me "what are you"? I could answer Australian or I could say South African, because I am a citizen of both countries. The truth is I will never be an Australian. If an Indian person was born in India and lived there until he was 50 years old, then lives in China for a number of years, does that make him Chinese? Certainly not - he is still an Indian. He might even have a British passport, live in China, but he is still an Indian. In the same way I am a South African, regardless of where I live or the passport that I carry.

That is why I want to have a South African passport - because I am a South African. Other people might think I'm silly, but on this topic I honestly don't care what they think, just like they should not care what I think when they make their decision on this matter.

I hope you now have a better understanding of how I feel.

[zoot]

Thanks Superkruz I think you managed to express what a lot of us feel but didnt know how to express.

[Superkruz]

Thanks Superkruz I think you managed to express what a lot of us feel but didnt know how to express.

I must admit it was liberating to write that post because I knew I had feelings I needed to express but I wasn't quite sure what they were. Once I started to write the post it just "flowed" out of my keyboard and even made me feel a little emotional! As they say in the Medibank TV ads : Thanks ... I feel better now.

[Kit]

Next question LOL:

On the application for retention of SA citizenship form, it has a section 'particulars of foreign citizenship to be acquired' and asks 'country' and 'how to be acquired?'. What do you put as the answer to 'how to be acquired?'? Naturalisation? Residence? Citizenship ceremony?

[Superkruz]

What do you put as the answer to 'how to be acquired?'? Naturalisation? Residence? Citizenship ceremony?

I wrote "BY CONFERRAL (NATURALISATION)" on my application. The ceremony and your preceding residence is all part of the naturalisation process.

The citizenship.gov.au site says "Migrants with permanent residence who satisfy the eligibility requirements apply for Australian citizenship by conferral"