Embarrassed to be a South african?

[Voortrekker]

I'm an Australian now.

Ditto. I even married one of youse Choog, I mean one of us

No I'm not "embarrist", don't feel deserted either, and am not mad at anyone (anymore), perhaps sad. I left when the old lot were in power, ie before the new lot came in.

Living in Canada at the moment, I introduce myself as Australian. If people persist, I would say South African-born Australian.

(Over here it makes little difference, as they cannot distinguish between accents from outside North America).

I FEEL Australian. I enjoy the footy, and I vote. I like the place, and I get the slang (well most of it).

But still, every time I open my mouth (in Australia), people would go, "Oh, you're South African".

Well, I don't mind, but actually, not really. I've spent (only the first) half my life in South Africa.

(Or sometimes they ask "where are you from", and I go "from, Sydney, and you?" )

Its been a long time. I read the headlines, but I'm out of touch with South Africa. No point pretending otherwise.

When I get homesick now, it is for Australia.

Still, my family roots are as Afrikaans as you can get - all 350 years of it. Vrystaat and all the rest.

Just recently I completed our genealogy and wrote down the family history.

Most of our ancestors came from Northern Europe. I can't claim to belong there anymore, and I'm not going back there. Ditto SA.

For me, South Africa is part of (my) history, just like Europe, it will always have a special place in my heart. But home is where the heart is, and I feel at home in Australia.

(Waving the flag, singing Waltzing Matilda, having a coldy, waiting for the footy season, etc.)

Edited February 14, 2008 by montxsuz

[Guest Mauritz]

Whats your feeling towards SA, now that you have moved to another country.

I grew up in Namibia (Suidwes) - my whole attitude towards South Africa and Africa is 'different' (I think).

In the early 70's we were in Angola for a holiday - the first South African soldier was killed in Angola during that holiday. Our house in Windhoek was broken into. Just after the holiday, my stepfather was attacked by a dozen Katatura specials and left for dead in a dry riverbed.

In '76 we moved to the Kavango - bom shelters in every yard, as well as the school. I grew up hunting & fishing during a full blown war. I grew up sitting in the front seat of a Landrover looking for signs of landmines, clutching a semi-automatic shotgun - all this before the age of 9. I had a AK47 in my face at this age. I saw the Portuguese refugees.

Koevoet, 32 Battalion, fighter plains over Rundu that shattered the windows was as normal as breakfast. I saw my first battle on the river banks of the Kavango river - Unita and MPLA at each others throats while the whole town sat on the other side, watching the spectacle through binoculars.

I saw more dead bodies before the age of 12 than the average policeman in Aus (in his lifetime) - for sure.

At that stage South Africa was a peaceful place - a place Ivisited every year with the defense force flossie (plane) - a place where I could eat Kentucky Fried Chicken, see a movie and watch television (things we didn't have).

I studied in South Africa and things started to change. I never knew a 'safe' country, except for South Africa as a child. When I touched the soil of this country 12 (Aus) years ago - I knew what my forefathers fought for - I knew what the Rhodesians fought for - I understood war, because that is what I fought for. Australians fought battles for what they have. The Isrealis are still fighting - my people just ............. gave up. I'll never understand that. (I don't want to argue about this statement- it's just my opinion).

This is my country now - I do care about Southern Africa and its people - I don't understand the mentality of 'the' people. I don't understand people that break down perfectly functioning systems down. I don't understand people who starve on fertile soil. I don't understand people who can't function without a dictator. I don't understand a continent - at this stage of evolution - that manages to go backwards at an alarming rate, while all the others are moving foreward (whatever that means).

I understand Australia - it is a country for kids - that's all that matters.

Edited February 14, 2008 by Mauritz

[Enrica]

No I am not embarrased to be a South African or call my self a South African. I was in the 70 and 80 in the years of apartheid, because I was young and stupid.

As I aquired some wisdom I realised just howself sufficient and resourceful South Africa was , and I held my head up high.

We had Proffessor Chris Barnard , South Africa was responsible for the Cat Scan , and we had Gary Player and many more achievements......and I was damned proud.

Then we became the "Rainbow Nation", and I just felt that our government had failed us, I did not see a future for my children in this new South Africa.

Certainly, I am a proud South African Australian . I still wear my green and gold and support the bokke and the Proteas, and my Australian Friends dont expect anything less from me. I eat Marmite and they eat vegemite. They accept that of me.

Australia is made up of this fantastic melting pot of culture and they tolerate me , the Jaapie.

I grew up the child of immigrants in South Africa, with a funny surname that no one could pronounce, and I was discriminated upon unfortunately by the Afrikaaners in particular. It was not pleasant to be treated like this by your own people.....I was born in South Africa , but made to feel like I did not belong.

Is that perhaps why so may Afrikaaners are just so ready to give up their roots and are embarrased to be South Africans?Are you worried that the same will happen to you here?

In every country and society there will be a certain amount of discrimination, its alive and well and kicking in every country in the world.

The average Australian thinks that every "foreigner" is here illegally or they think you are like the 10 pound poms of the 70's and 80's.

They dont actually realize how much it actually costs you to get here, and that you have to be the "creme of the crop" , that the Australian Government does not just take anybody. Sorry, but I earned my place in Australia, I had to meet the criteria and it cost a lot of money and sacrifice. And for that I am happy to pay my taxes and be an upstanding citizen, but I am still a South African.

My country's government has let me and countless of its other citizens down that why I left.

[Cagiva]

I dont feel at home in South Africa, I feel like a foreigner. I have always been an outsider and a non conformist so I suspect it has just been bred into me.

I dont watch cricket and I dont watch rugby, I have no idea who plays in the teams, and I dont care. I dont have a heritage in this country. I may have been born here but that is it. I feel no alliance.

What I do care most about is what I hope and pray Australia will give me the ability to protect. I love Chris more than anything, and I want a life with him, not living in a cage, not being too afraid to go out on my own to buy him something, a real life. A life where I can see him be promoted in his career and be valued for who he is.

And the country that gives me that will have my total loyalty and devotion. I will volunteer and give to charity and live my life to make my country proud.

South Africa is who I was, Australia who I am meant to be.

[Tobold]

...

PPS: Tobold: I know how you feel. I am as Afrikaans as can be and moved to Durban for 5 years. It was hell!

The I moved to Pretoria for 4 years and it was better language wise, but as a Western province supporter I did not really fit in

I love the "souties". In primary school I was in a dual medium school. Break time was always a soccer war between the "souties" and the Afrikaans speaking! But come Saturday we united in our victories over Paarl Gym, Paarl Boys High, Rondebosch and Bishops rugby teams! I was in Paul Roos of course.

I went to Rondebosch (primary), and those are some of the happiest memories I have of this country. Hell, that was back in the late 70's! I left Cape Town in 1983, when I was 13 years old, for Pretoria. I had Afrikaans friends, some very close ones, but the old Pretoria was quite a bastion! It's funny how you can feel like an outsider due to seemingly trivial differences. One thing is for sure, this migration really seems to bring us all together!

Cagiva, that is well put, and quite moving. I share your sentiment, hopes and fears. May you find that better life in quick time, and never look back.

Edited February 14, 2008 by Tobold

[Antoinette]

Yes, you are deeply patriotic towards Australia. Look at what you have built, for goodness sake. A first world country that functions like a well oiled machine. Am I patriotic towards South Africa. I was once. Everything we had build we handed lock-stock-and barrel over to the natives. It is not mine anymore. The day Australia accepts me as a citizen I am going to love it back. It is probably human nature to want to be patriotic. God knows how I felt the day they told me I am good enough for a PR visum. In fact, I can almost not believe your post. It is one of those "is this guy for real" kind of reactions. White South Africans have lots to be proud of. But it all seems to be overshadowed by the seemingly immortal shame of apartheid. Of the new South Africa there is nothing that a white man can be proud of except maybe his endless tolerance and forbearance under a steady barrage of theft and discrimination under the guise of AA and EE and BEE and ever-increasing misery due to widespread incompetance and corruption. You have a problem with South Africans wanting to become Australians? A bit of xenophobia perhaps towards the South Africans who dare to make your country their country? South Africans are not moving to Australia for a bit of adventure. It has become an exodus. Australia is not just a country they are visiting for as long as they fancy. It is their new home. South Africa has become that peculiar mix of arrogance, incompetance, corruption, violence and crime that Africa gravitates towards. Must I be patriotic. Can I afford to be patriotic of the old South Africa. Not without running the real risk of being labelled as a racist because the old South Africa will always be synonomous with apartheid in the minds of the international community. Time to cut our losses!

[jacquesd]

Just a quick reminder

TODAY IS AFRICA DAY!!!!!

PLEASE CONTRIBUTE BY MAKING A COMPLETE F#&KUP OF SOMETHING SIMPLE.

[wislon]

There is one Aussie tradition/thing I will never get used to and that is putting egg on pizza

They put egg on their pizza?!?

@jacquesd: priceless!

Edited February 14, 2008 by wislon

[Dana]

I find it interesting that many saffers on this forum really go to an effort to take-on/adapt to being an 'Aussie'.

I came to South africa as an Aussie, born & bred, and no way in hell am i, or would i be anything else but Australian, never. I would never, for example, put an avatar of something south african on this forum or any other, it would always be something Australian, and i find reading/looking at posts that it contains many little things that suggest your, ashamed, emabarrist, and seem to have no loyality to SA. Suggesting that you're been 'hurt' by your own country, or maybe felt it has let you down, and in a way, your showing disrespect towards it now that you've jumped ship.

I can understand going to live in another country (because i've been away for many years now) you make certain adaptions, but seems as though many of you have crossed the line which i find, i dont know..... not normal.

Whats your feeling towards SA, now that you have moved to another country.

Hi. Can I have a go at trying to explain this to you?

Ok. You are from Australia right? Brisbane?

Lets imagine that the Australian government hold a referendum to decide if they were in the wrong with the aboriginal thing. The Australian people decide yes and that a new government should be formed with the aboriginal people leading it.

The new government and the rest of the world agree that the “European” Australian people were wrong and nasty and very evil towards the aboriginal people. They decide that the current Australian flag represents all that was evil and should be changed. They change the flag to something that you think is fugly. They also move the capital to Brisbane and change its name to BangBoola.

They now decide that from today all Australian kids will be educated in the old aboriginal way, and not in English. They go out of their way to remove any and everything that is English from government.

Now sport. All Australian Cricket and Rugby teams must have at least 70% aboriginal players, regardless of their sporting skills in every team that takes the field.

To redress the wrongs of the past the new government decides to stop spending money on maintaining or developing new infrastructure. Everything starts to collapse around you.

Now the question. Would you as a “European” evil Australian, proudly wave your new fugly flag in another country?

Disclaimer. I have nothing against the aboriginal people; I am merely trying to use an example of something you can relate to. If I have offended anyone; I am sorry, that was not my intension. I am merely trying to explain how I feel in an Australian context, for chooq.

[Jen]

Dana and Bob, both of you have hit the nail on the head!

Let me add that I watched a program on the bbc on Monday night and it made me cringe! I was embarrassed at the rest of the world thinking that Zuma is our (SA;s ) choice to lead the country! I am embarrassed at what has happened and is happening to our country. I am ashamed that our government has so little regard for all those those lives have been shattered by mindless crime and violence. I am embarrassed that our government and the majority of our people honour and look up to crooks, fraudsters and murderers. I am ashamed to say that there is nothing I could do to change it, all I could do was get the hell out for the sake of my child.

I will always love south africa and what it was, I will care about what happens to it and its peoples, I will worry and pray for friends and family and the innocent stuck there, but sadly I cannot say I am proud of it in any way

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/default.stm

open the one "No more mandelas""

[Gizmo]

I don't speak for all in the forum, but it's not a question of being embarresed about being a South African but embracing the future. Yes in a way we have been let down when we have fear for our lives each waking moment of the day. But I know this, that when I get to Oz I intend on living in the moment and enjoying everything about it. You will find that most South Africans don't even identify with being South Africans, we are English, Afrikaaner, Zulu, Xhosa etc. We are such a mixed up nation I don't think we indentify with anything. To head for a country where people are patriotic will be a new experience for all of us.

My opinion, embrace that which you what to be, and if that's Australian (citerzenship) then so be it.

K&B

Am with you on this one.

BTW - egg on pizza??

*drool* - right up my alley - yum yum, I am gonna fit in just fine!

[Red]

Am with you on this one.

BTW - egg on pizza??

*drool* - right up my alley - yum yum, I am gonna fit in just fine!

Fried egg or boiled egg - sorry I need to imagine this!

[maraai]

I tried to write something to explain how I feel about losing the country that I dearly loved, but I just start to cry and it just doesn't come out right!

I don't have a country anymore, that is why I will become as Australian as I can. I identify more with the Netherlands, Germany and Brittan than with the country that is now called South Africa.

It is not my culture anymore (language, music, dance, art, literature...) With what must I identify???

I don't feel welcome here, and I am tired of fighting a loosing battle, I am tired of living in a country that is at war, even though there might not be bombs going off all over the place.

There are many people who feel at home in South Africa, many of my friends and family still love Africa (warts and all). And I am happy for them. But for my own sanity, happiness, health and wellbeing - I need to find me a new country!!!

[Kurkprop]

No I'm not embarrassed but I'm glad that after 12 years I finally sound like an Aussie and can pass underneath the radar a bit more than when I first arrived.

Now I don't have to have the same old conversation every time I meet a new person: "do you have an accent?" "yes" "where are you from?"... "South Africa" "Ahhh... I see, why did you leave?"... "well, you see....crime....job opportunities...better quality of life blah blah blah...." Same old story each time - gets a bit tiring after a while.

Edited February 15, 2008 by Kurkprop

[ta'mossie]

For some reason my post landed here in the middle of everything amonst yesterday's posts. I am moving it to the end of the que.

Edited February 15, 2008 by ta'mossie

[Andre S]

EGG ON PIZZA??? I'm not convinced about that one...yet.

Bob, you summed up the macro problem of South Africa very accurately. Of course I concur with you in general - one cannot deny the history of Africa and the failure of the majority of states after handing over independence together with a functioning administration system and infrastructure.

My observation from watching the infrastructure mismanagement in contemporary South Africa, is that culturally, indigenous Africans do not think in terms of accountability or forward planning. Maintenance is not something that is considered - if it breaks, you fix it. (Our biggest state hospital, Jo'burg Gen, has three tower blocks of about 10-15 storeys if memory serves, and Radio 702 recently reported that the lifts stopped working because the health department decided to cancel long standing maintenance contracts with the lift maintenance company, notwithstanding the fact that there is a budget surplus and millions in unspent money on their books!)

To really understand South Africa, you have to be part of it. You have to be able to compare the "old way" with the new way and have gone through the process of change and realisation that the old way was morally bankrupt and inhumane but that the new way is incompetent and simply cannot work. You have to know what makes a South African tick, the conservative ones, the liberal ones, the pan Africanists, the "model C's".

I identify strongly with Antionette's sentiments as well as Tobold's, but in the end the pawpaw has already hit the fan and all we can do is pick up the pieces. If we are VERY careful we can still make a smoothy out of the bits that are left, but it's not an option if someone is simply going to walk all over the mess on the floor!

Regrettably, I have to say that my negative side leans towards thinking that South Africa will one day be a distant memory like Rhodesia. I wish they would just call it Azania and honour the civilisation that once was. That would be far more honourable. It's not that I think that black people are incapable of running a modern system because of their race or DNA, I just don't think that you can do it with an iron age cultural thought process. Similarly, the Australian aboriginal cultural system (stone age) is not up to the task of running modern Australia. Cultural evolution is necessary, and that goes for our so called European culture as well. To keep up, one has to constantly evolve. This is a controvercial view, but it ties in with Bob's analogy of giving your sixteen year old the keys to the family car.

There are many black South Africans who are brilliant and who have been to better private schools than me. They attended the same university as I did and passed with distinction. Sadly, they are in the minority and the ones who have really made the mental leap, are also emigrating. Africa's problems are plain to see to those who pay attention. The sad thing is that, when you see a great mind that has been moulded by a top UK university, slide back into the iron age African way for the sake of culture or "getting down to one's roots". Thabo Mbeki has proved himself as one of Africa's greatest disappointments. Jacob Zuma is blameless as he simply doesn't have the education.

Bob, and all the other "nice" Australians, you have to realise that the South Africans that are represented on this site, probably represent the most positive view of South Africans. These are people who WANT to live in a country with rules. They are the ones who want to reinvent themselves as Australians and work towards a common goal. The reality back in the good old RSA is that the corruption isn't limited to black people. There is a breed of unscrupulous white South African who favours the anarchy and lack of rules. There are many business opportunities and ways to make money if you are the type who prospers in a "red tape free" environment. Birds of a feather flock together as they say and there are many opportunities to do business with the world's scum.

You still have to be careful of most white (and "other") South Africans who land in Australia. Even the "good ones" have become a bit tarnished, which is why the Australians have learnt to check our containers for banned items and our suitcases for biltong! The Saffers WILL try their luck. We WILL drive at double the speed limit until you fine us repeatedly. We need to evolve into law abiding citizens once we get there.

My point is that Australia is good and safe because the law is enforced and there is a culture of accountability. It is a meaningless endeavour to try to decide whether you are proud of South Africa or not or whether you are embarassed or not. The South Africa which shaped the current tide of SA-Australian immigrants, is no more.

It saddens me however that so many of my fellow compatriots are so unwilling to accept their place in history as though they were never around when apartheid was in full swing or at the very least enjoyed its indirect benefits. Kids died in the army fighting on the borders protecting our way of life and that was part of it. People were stripped of their dignity and it didn't take much effort to convince white SAns to enjoy a life of privilege over others. We as a people cannot escape the sins of our fathers, no matter where we run. It is not a question of whether your parents or you as an individual were more or less racist or liberal, we as a group are accountable.

I think the migration process is an opportunity for us to evolve further as South Africans and that is the logical final stage in the transformation process of South Africa. We are creating spaces to be filled by black people, and if the spaces are filled by unqualified or incompetent candidates, the system will eventually fail and we can look back as Australians and say "told you so". That's some consolation for me.

Someone once said "all the stories have wolves in them", meaning all histories have their dark side. I recall a song by Midnight Oil called "Beds are Burning/Give it Back" which was all about Aboriginal reparations. Let's hope that Rudd will make the appropriate gestures and reparations on humanitarian grounds without actually giving power over to a stone age civilisation...

Viva Australian democracy!

Aussie oi! oi!

André S

[Riekie]

They put egg on their pizza?!?

@jacquesd: priceless!

Yeah - and beetroot on everything else!!

[somarie]

Very good post, Andrè.

Personally I think you give a very realistic view of our current situation.

Sonja

[AfrikaSon]

Well said everyone, the vast experiences show so ever evidently in our building blocks.

We're survivors, move us anywhere, feed us anything, but grant us some basics like respect and opportunities and pls grant our children a better future.

I really can't add much more to what's already said, the different views tells such a good story - and I will die fighting for my happy ending...and why not explore other walks of life while doing so.

[Mikej]

Mauritz wrote

I understand Australia - it is a country for kids - that's all that matters.

Best line ever written.

Michael

[ta'mossie]

Dear Choog

I feel so emotional as I start writing, I hope to find the right words....

I love my country so much, but I am forced to leave. I feel like our family's hand was forced in the matter. There are small and big things that are so much part of being African and South African (The Serengeti, elephants, zebras, etc; the way we talk; Cape Town, the Bushveld, The Drakensberg; Pro Nutro, Braaivleis en Pap; ag I can go on and on). We are in the process of saying good bye to all of this for ever. It is because I love my country so much that I'm trying to learn all I can about Aus in a desperate effort to make the transition as easy as possible. This forum has been my lifeline.

I will always in my heart be a South African. You can recognize us all over the world. We are survivors. We are innovative. We are strong. We produce some of the most brilliant individuals in the world. We are physically an attractive people. We are brave.... and willing to give up that which is so dear to us and fully embrace a new country with everything we have. That takes courage. I find having to draw on all my inner resources to make this move. Let me say this: if all things were equal between SA and AUS I don't think many of us would even consider giving up our magnificent country for yours. ( I don't mean to offend you Choog, I'm saying this in the context of this topic)

You musn't think because I said all this that I don't think Australia is a great country with a great people. They are. And that is exactly why we chose them over other possibilities. I agree with everyone else. When we land I will embrace Australia and I will give my new country my all. I will be a proud Aussie and maybe eventually the scars from the past will heal.

I've now dried my tears and I'm going to go out with joy and great anticipation! I am determined to live a great life in Aus and look forward to seeing many of you there.

I hope I haven't offended you or anyone. That was not my intention.

cheers mate

PS: I'm willing to give the egg on a pizza thing a try!

[choog]

...really, many wonderful replies.

It would seem moving to OZ can be a lot more difficult for some people than others. Some of you dont seem to cope all that well.

Support is something lacking it would seem. Coming here (forum), meeting with fellow saffers for coffee, seeing a shrink - before and after leaving SA is neccesary for some of you in order to help cope with the big re-location.

[Conrad]

Hi All

Ja well no fine.This has been one of the most interesting topics.A proud South African, I`ll always be.There a lot of factors as to how we feel and why were making this huge move to another Country.BUT!Where did we actually derive from.I find this part very interesting once again.My ancestors came from good old Ireland but I was born in good /not so good SA.So where do I actually belong here or in some other place, they decided to migrate to..How did the white folk arrive in Oz,New Zealand etc.What I feel is were all come from different parts of the Continent for a good reason and once fulfilled our task have to move on.SO OZ HERE WE COME.

Chow Conrad

[Red]

Choog, thank you.

You provoked a very interesting debate, I enjoyed the posts and even learnt a few things along the way.

Take care,

red

[DKH]

Hi Choog,

Thank you for this topic! Thank you for asking the question.

It is great to hear everyone's responses. We need to air what we feel and there is part healing, part building that happens here.

We cannot go across the big blue with anger harbouring in our hearts - it will surface. My wife once told me that you cannot put a potplant on a weed, it will just grow through it and choke the plant. You must deal with it - get rid of the weed. Then only can you fully enjoy the garden!

Thanks,

DKH