Embarrassed to be a South african?

[Milada (Ms Maritz)]

Interesting topic and very interesting posts! A great way of passing time on a Friday evening - reading these posts

Sometime I feel like a foreigner in my own country. We went to Brasil in 2006 and struggled a lot with the language issue there - they only speak Portugese and only a few people speak English. But we struggled through the 2 weeks and enjoyed it. The day we landed at Jan Smuts airport (uhm, sorry Johannesburg airport.... uhm sorry, OR Tambo airport...) we had to ask someone for directions to the long stay parking. I had to ask the lady THREE times to repeat the directions, because I really couldn't understand a word she was saying.... and she supposedly spoke English! And the way she got annoyed with me.... At that moment I didn't feel welcome in my own country!

My brother gave me a Springbok flag for Christmas... not to forget my roots. I will proudly wave that flag at every rugby game when in Australia! Just don't know what I will do if they are not called Springboks anymore...

[Mythryl]

This is one of those issues that always gets me in trouble but here goes:

I live in New Zealand. I still support the Sharks. Still support the Springboks. I still speak Afrikaans daily and get tears in my eyes when I hear "Die Stem" (which I sing out loud at rugby games). I respect other peoples cultures (within reason as long as they don't conflict too badly with mine). I am a South African living overseas. They say "when in Rome do as the Romans do" well if those Romans refuse to use toilets and do their "business" in public don't expect me to do the same.

I love SA, but unfortunately can't live there. I'm proud of South Africa. I cried when Jake and the boys lifted that trophy and wear my bok jersey whenever I can.

Living in NZ has been tough because of the way I feel. People here hate the fact that I don't become a "kiwi". That is one area where Aussie has been good to me. The people I met at Suncorp embraced and applauded the fact that I remained South African.

[Blossom]

Lank gedink oor die een.

Mens se hart is ruim, altyd nog plek.

Hoe kan ek skaam wees oor my herkoms, ek is 'n Suid Afrikaner en trots daarop. My gedagtes is in Afrikaans, my verlede is Afrikaans, my stoere voorouers is Suid Afrikaans. Ek droom in Afrikaans en ek droom van my groot word jare in S.A. Hoe lekker was dit net nie!

My bande met my verlede en my land sal nooit verbreek word nie, die memories sal nooit uitgewis kan word nie.

My identiteit is trots Suid Afrikaans.

Maar nou is ek hier en ek omhels die land met al sy mense vas teen my boesem en se dankie aan hulle wat my so met ope arms verwelkom. Ek is dankbaar en ek wys dit deur lojaal te staan teenoor Australia.

Ek is gelukkig, ek het twee lande, twee kulture en sing twee volks liedere. Ek is 'n baan breker vir my kinders maar nie 'n verraaier teenoor my herkoms nie.

Sela.

KD.

[Red]

I think this cartoon by Zapiro is quite relevant for us South Africans coming across and why we feel the way we do.

[Navigator]

I find it interesting that many saffers on this forum really go to an effort to take-on/adapt to being an 'Aussie'.

Not yet in my case - I suggest you take a close look at my picture!!

[Dax]

I find it interesting that many saffers on this forum really go to an effort to take-on/adapt to being an 'Aussie'.

Yep, I sure did!

Dax

[Alibaba]

Saterdag het ons met 'n paar bakkies oor 'n rowwe 2-spoor paadjie tot op die berg gery waar my skoonpa se as gestrooi is, oor 'n pragtige landskap waarvoor hy lief was, maar wat hy nie meer kon hou nie en 'n jaar gelede verkoop het. En ek het die trane in my man se oë gesien oor die herinneringe wat hy het van sy tye as kind op die plaas, oor sy pa wat hy as't ware daar los en oor 'n land waar hy nie meer kan bly nie. Dit was seer, baie seer.

Ek is so lief vir SA, maar miskien die SA wat was. My pa staan 'n kans om sy grond te verloor met pekanneutbome op wat hy soos babas versorg het, en wat sy aftrede vir hom gemaklik moes maak en ek weet ons moet gaan.

Ek gaan SA nie afsterf nie, my grootword jare lê hier, my vormingsjare, en ek los mense hier waarvoor ek baie lief is en waaroor ek baie bekommerd is. Maar, ek kan nie saamstem met wat die land se leiers besig is om te doen nie. Ek bid elke dag dat die Vader my familie sal bewaar en beskerm en dat hulle nie deel van die statistieke moet word nie. Ek gaan Aus my beste gee, want hulle gee ons 'n geleentheid.

En as daar beet op my kos is en eier op my pizza, gaan ek dit eet, en as ek nie daarvan hou nie, dan haal ek dit af. Big deal! My man het werk, my kind 'n toekoms en ons is veilig en dis wat tel.

[Michele R]

Alibaba, wat jy se is so waar.

Ek is nie skaam om 'n Suid Afrikaner te wees nie. Maar wanneer ek in Australie bly sal ek lief word vir my nuwe land ook met suwe gunsteling plekke en nuwe herhinderinge.

Hmmm, wonder of jy 'n trots SA en 'n trots Aussie gelyk kan wees?

[Cagiva]

Hmmm, wonder of jy 'n trots SA en 'n trots Aussie gelyk kan wees?

Of course you can, you are a woman, it is called multitasking

[Mara]

I have enjoyed this thread and the feelings expressed here, makes me feel at home. Fourteen years after leaving South Africa, eleven of those as a Kiwi citizen and shortly to become an Aus citizen, the only thing I was happy to lose was my SA passport and citizenship, don't need it any more. In my heart though I will always know what I am and where I came from. The memories that I have cannot be erased, they are with me daily. At the same time, I am very grateful for NZ/Australia giving us citizenship. I cannot be ashamed of being a SA because that would mean I am ashamed of being me! I can however be disgusted with what has happened to the country, that is my right as a free person!

[zorba]

...really, many wonderful replies.

It would seem moving to OZ can be a lot more difficult for some people than others. Some of you dont seem to cope all that well.

Support is something lacking it would seem. Coming here (forum), meeting with fellow saffers for coffee, seeing a shrink - before and after leaving SA is neccesary for some of you in order to help cope with the big re-location.

?? ?? Seeing a shrink, no really?

zorba

[BriteBlue]

My identity has very little to do with the colour of the passport in my pocket. My great grandfather came to SA in 1875, my wife's ancestors were 1820 settlers. The time came for us to move on. And you have always to leave loved ones behind.

But the trouble with Africa is that it gets under your skin.

We are lucky - we have a cottage next to the Kruger Park. Where a big kudu bull comes to eat pawpaw from your hand. Now we can only visit once a year - can't wait!

Edited February 22, 2008 by BriteBlue

[Lynn]

I find it interesting that many saffers on this forum really go to an effort to take-on/adapt to being an 'Aussie'.

I came to South africa as an Aussie, born & bred, and no way in hell am i, or would i be anything else but Australian, never. I would never, for example, put an avatar of something south african on this forum or any other, it would always be something Australian, and i find reading/looking at posts that it contains many little things that suggest your, ashamed, emabarrist, and seem to have no loyality to SA. Suggesting that you're been 'hurt' by your own country, or maybe felt it has let you down, and in a way, your showing disrespect towards it now that you've jumped ship.

I can understand going to live in another country (because i've been away for many years now) you make certain adaptions, but seems as though many of you have crossed the line which i find, i dont know..... not normal.

Whats your feeling towards SA, now that you have moved to another country.

Hi Choog

What happens is people need to justify their move to Australia for one reason or another - could be guilt, unhappiness in the choice they made, the choice is different to how they perceived it would be.

In Australia there are many sacrifices that need to be made, like in SA. The sacrifices are just different. But I think you are right. I am not radically patriotic to countries, I am loyal to people. Countries will go on without you and probably don't really care about you in the long run - we certainly see this through out Africa. The prople come second in the power struggles, jossling for position and status, etc. I have never lived in another country until now, and would like to see whether Australia is really different in this regard.

As for the people, I found the Australians incredibly wonderfully warm accomodating people, always willing to help. So my loyalty stays with people. Countries, no.

As I posted before, if you are sitting in Chobe National Park watching the sun set over the Chobe river, there is no place like Africa. However, if you are in the Tullebudgera Valley, QLD, your children safely playing on the small holding you have there, with no worries of them being abducted, raped or shot, then there is no place like Australia.

I just hope that with all the immigrants that are filtering into Australia, that it remains safe.

Have a good day, and thank you for the thought provoking post.

k.rgds

Lynn

[Lynn]

Dear Choog

I feel so emotional as I start writing, I hope to find the right words....

I love my country so much, but I am forced to leave. I feel like our family's hand was forced in the matter. There are small and big things that are so much part of being African and South African (The Serengeti, elephants, zebras, etc; the way we talk; Cape Town, the Bushveld, The Drakensberg; Pro Nutro, Braaivleis en Pap; ag I can go on and on). We are in the process of saying good bye to all of this for ever. It is because I love my country so much that I'm trying to learn all I can about Aus in a desperate effort to make the transition as easy as possible. This forum has been my lifeline.

I will always in my heart be a South African. You can recognize us all over the world. We are survivors. We are innovative. We are strong. We produce some of the most brilliant individuals in the world. We are physically an attractive people. We are brave.... and willing to give up that which is so dear to us and fully embrace a new country with everything we have. That takes courage. I find having to draw on all my inner resources to make this move. Let me say this: if all things were equal between SA and AUS I don't think many of us would even consider giving up our magnificent country for yours. ( I don't mean to offend you Choog, I'm saying this in the context of this topic)

You musn't think because I said all this that I don't think Australia is a great country with a great people. They are. And that is exactly why we chose them over other possibilities. I agree with everyone else. When we land I will embrace Australia and I will give my new country my all. I will be a proud Aussie and maybe eventually the scars from the past will heal.

I've now dried my tears and I'm going to go out with joy and great anticipation! I am determined to live a great life in Aus and look forward to seeing many of you there.

I hope I haven't offended you or anyone. That was not my intention.

cheers mate

PS: I'm willing to give the egg on a pizza thing a try!

Hi, A good response and a certainly heart felt one. I really don't think that one needs to leave behind and embrace the oncoming. I really think that one needs to embrace both - be part of both and enjoy just being without having to be put into a box of whether you are SA or Australian.

I live in Natal, support the Bulls for local rugby, support New Zealand for Int;l rugby and cricket and am moving to Aus. If you asked me why, well I just like the various teams and why should I, a diverse, interesting, love all person, be put into a box of what I should like or not. Enjoy being you, crying over what makes you sad, enjoying about another country that gives you life, not enjoying about a country that is sad, and be free.\ in who you are and the choices you are making. If you are confused or unsure of the choices that you are making, well be free in that as well. Who said we need to have this all nicely wrapped.

It never will be. If it was, then we have stopped growing.

Enjoy,

k.rgds

Lynn

[Lynn]

Hi. Can I have a go at trying to explain this to you?

Ok. You are from Australia right? Brisbane?

Lets imagine that the Australian government hold a referendum to decide if they were in the wrong with the aboriginal thing. The Australian people decide yes and that a new government should be formed with the aboriginal people leading it.

The new government and the rest of the world agree that the ?European? Australian people were wrong and nasty and very evil towards the aboriginal people. They decide that the current Australian flag represents all that was evil and should be changed. They change the flag to something that you think is fugly. They also move the capital to Brisbane and change its name to BangBoola.

They now decide that from today all Australian kids will be educated in the old aboriginal way, and not in English. They go out of their way to remove any and everything that is English from government.

Now sport. All Australian Cricket and Rugby teams must have at least 70% aboriginal players, regardless of their sporting skills in every team that takes the field.

To redress the wrongs of the past the new government decides to stop spending money on maintaining or developing new infrastructure. Everything starts to collapse around you.

Now the question. Would you as a ?European? evil Australian, proudly wave your new fugly flag in another country?

Disclaimer. I have nothing against the aboriginal people; I am merely trying to use an example of something you can relate to. If I have offended anyone; I am sorry, that was not my intension. I am merely trying to explain how I feel in an Australian context, for chooq.

Hi Dana

You have only looked at the last 15 years. I invite you to look to the last 100 years. Where did the road's names Van Riebeek, or Jan Smuts Ave come from? The people that were otiginally in SA were our blacks. Why are the black people in SA called indigenous, that is because they were here first - they are indigenous to Africa.

Did you know that our indigenous people were forced to learn in AFrikaans in ther schools. If they could not speak Afrikaans they were called 'stupid'. The word 'kaffir' means ' ... someone that does not believe in God ...", i.e. does not have a soul. This is what was widely belived by our ancestors. Well that is the history of SA.

If your name was not van der Merwe, van der Westhuizen, Botha, etc you would not qualify for a government position or be chosen to play for the Springboks.

There are +- 40m black people in SA compares to 2m whites. They are the majority. This means that the norms of a country are going to be influenced by the majority. If this does not suit you, then it is time to leave SA. If you can live with it and be happy within it, then stay.

I just ask you one thing, the astrocities that you mention or seemingly one sided views that you mention, have all be done before. First by the colonial British to the Afrikaaner, then by the Afrikaaner to the Blacks, now by the majority. If you were black, you would not have the same view that you have. I am not black, just objective.

Pls don't knock SA otherwise you will not be trusted with Australia, Australians or any other country.

Sorry to be harsh - but SA is too great a country, so is Aus to even have them compared; with one another.

k.rgds

Lynn

Edited February 22, 2008 by Lynn

[CraigAndMel]

How do Australians view South Africans? Do they like them, or what?

I live in the UK for 7 years. I know how they saw South Africans - but wondering how Aussies see us/them. Any ideas?

[Voortrekker]

How do Australians view South Africans? Do they like them, or what?

I live in the UK for 7 years. I know how they saw South Africans - but wondering how Aussies see us/them. Any ideas?

Good question, but I think it is worthy of a new forum.

[Dugong]

Why are the black people in SA called indigenous, that is because they were here first - they are indigenous to Africa.

Lyn, While I understand the message you are trying to get accross, this statement isn't correct. The first "owners" of South Afirca were actually the san people.

The african tribes came from the north, and took the land by force from them. They fought each other, murdered, raped, killed and destroyed everything in their path. Only if you were a member of the tribe could you survive or as a slave - good example Shaka Zulu.

Then the British set up a colony and took the land by force, turning the africans and san people into slaves, fighting the boers and created the first concentration camps for women and children. The stripped the land of resources and you had to be british to hold any kind of position of authority, land etc

Then the Booers fought against them and took the land by force and in around 1906 after the boer wars turned the country into an republic. But, Apparteid was started in 1950/60 and lasted 40 years - one generation - but with lasting effects that will be difficult to overcome. You had to be white during this 40 year period to own anything.

Now the majority have taken the land back, by a different kind of force, and are implementing BEE, redistribution, re-allocation etc - the same effect as the previous four except you now have to be Black to inherit the benifits.

What really strikes me is that during 200 years starting from around 1800, we have had 4 regimes take over (and now on the 5th) and all of them have done the same - in different ways, but the same - no lessons learnt at all. Still a power hungry, blood shedding nation, that resorts to ruling party ownership, violence etc.

I wonder how long it will take, or how many owners Africa will need to go through, to get away from this.

[Spider]

when we were on an LSD and people asked where we from and when we said South Africa people's responses without us saying anything was shame we don't have the you do....

[Dax]

Hi Dana

You have only looked at the last 15 years. I invite you to look to the last 100 years. Where did the road's names Van Riebeek, or Jan Smuts Ave come from? The people that were otiginally in SA were our blacks. Why are the black people in SA called indigenous, that is because they were here first - they are indigenous to Africa.

Lyn,

Your premise is wrong.

In South African history, White Trek Boers moving up from the South met Blacks gradually moving from the North at the Fish River in th elate 1700's.

Before that NO black people lived anywhere south of the Fish or Kei Rivers. The only indegenous people then living ib the area south of a line dawn from th emouth of th eFish River to the mouth of the Orange river were the San and the Khoisan peoples, who are extinct now.

What I'm trying to point out is that historically, blacks don't really have a claim to the Western Cape, and likewise the whites don't rally have a claim to Natal.

The Free State and parts of Transvaal may be desribed as "grey areas" as those areas were mostly or partly uninhabited due to the wars of attrition by Shaka and Mzilikaze. This was the situation the Voortekkers found when they arrived in the areas north of the Vaal and Orange Rivers.

Ironically, after the Voortrekkers defeated the Zulus and Matebeles, the refugees from Shaka and Mzilikaze's agression (Twanas, Vendas, Sothos etc.) crawled out of hiding and formed much of the basis of today's land claims - e.g. "Oh, one hundred and eighty years ago a remote ancestor of mine lived fior a few months in a cave nearby, hiding from Mzilikaze's impis, so now i claim this nice farms as my property..."

Just my 2c worth

Dax

Edited February 22, 2008 by Dax

[Gizmo]

Lynn - actually to be perfectly correct, nobody owned SA before the Dutch arrived.

The indiginous peoples living north of the Fish river, and the Khoisan were nomadic by nature, and ownership of land (as we know it) was not a part of their cultural context. Cities rose and fell as the lands ability to sustain life was depleted and people moved on. The real "ownership" of land was introduced by the European Colonialists.

While I see your point about the road names, don't you think that the people who initiated those roads should get to name them? I disagree completely with the renaming of everything. Yes, new things (eg roads) should be named aptly for the current context of SA, but to rename all the old things is pointless IMO. You cannot erase a countries history (no matter how embarassing) by changing names. One example to illustrate my point would be to look at the Company Gardens in Cape Town. There have been a lot of discussions lately about removing Smuts, Queen Victoria and the rest of the "undesireable" statues which grace the gardens. My immediate response would be to call for more statues, not to take any away. Taking Smuts away, doesn't erase what he did or didn't do, but having him kept there is an imporant reminder that history does not repeat itself. Rather add new statues, of Steve Biko, Mandela etc so we can add to our very rich cross-cultural historic heritage, the good and the bad. It is a great pity that Nobel square (which features the nobel peace prize winners) was located at the V & A waterfront. IMO it should have been added to the Company's Gardens to add to the historic tapestry there.

Andre - I liked your response. Nicely rounded and fair.

Edited February 22, 2008 by Gizmo

[Preacher]

I will never be embarrased to be called a South African. I will support our sporting teams and I will always pray that things will come right back in my homeland. There is no reason to turn my back on my heritage or my people. I am proud of it. Saying that, if you decide to leave your country, one must do their utmost to integrate and assimilate into the country that adopts you.

What I will say is that I do get embarrased for some of our people though. Having seen the way South Africans act overseas, at times I cant help but feel sad at the way we are percieved internationally. We love to think of ourselves as hardworking, loyal decent people. I wish that were really the case for all of my countrymen. It really is just not the way we are seen anymore, and I wonder if we have been seen this way.

South Africans have developed a reputation for being arrogant, aggressive and lazy. Unfortunatly, its a reputation that is probably deserved too. The amount of trouble young South Africans used to cause in London (where they work with Aussies and Kiwis too) when I was there has been something that has contributed to this. South Africans also have a habit of only moving into communities where there are other South Africans, refusing to mix with the locals. Add to this a poor work ethic that has been stamped onto our foreheads (contrary to local South African beliefs that we are seen as hard working people) and you begin to feel embarrassed that you are automatically lumped into the same bracket as those South Africans.

One thing that does irritate me is the constant use of Afrikaans. Now I know its our language, and a language we need to be proud of. I, however, used to get angry when I went into the south of Joburg and the old portugeuse lady behind the counter could hardly speak English or Afrikaans. She lives in my country, makes money here, yet refuses to change her views or even bother to speak the local language. South Africans tend to be guilty of the same thing. If there are English speaking people around, you speak english. If you contribute to this forum, you should be contributing in English.

So if I can offer any advice (as an arrogant South African, its one of my favorite hobbies:)) it would be this.

1) Speak the local language when you are around locals, even to each other. Its rude to do otherwise. In your own home, do as you please.

2) Dont think that everything is a challenege. No one is tuning you . Most people are ignorant and curious

3) Humour is different. Australian humour is much like English humour. Dry and very sarcastic, sometimes insulting. They take the piss a lot. Its often a sign of affection, not an insult. Dont see it as one

4) Dont shout your mouth off at the office from the word go. SA's are pushy, and its not well recieved sometimes

5) Dont complain about the reality of your surroundings. I know it was nice to be able to bribe a police officer in SA, and I know Ouma rusks destroy anything made there. But they really dont need to hear it, and you will only be more misearble for thinking it

Hope I did not offend too many with this post, but I am sure that a few of you are probably ready to lynch me now

[Preacher]

Hi, A good response and a certainly heart felt one. I really don't think that one needs to leave behind and embrace the oncoming. I really think that one needs to embrace both - be part of both and enjoy just being without having to be put into a box of whether you are SA or Australian.

I live in Natal, support the Bulls for local rugby, support New Zealand for Int;l rugby and cricket and am moving to Aus. If you asked me why, well I just like the various teams and why should I, a diverse, interesting, love all person, be put into a box of what I should like or not. Enjoy being you, crying over what makes you sad, enjoying about another country that gives you life, not enjoying about a country that is sad, and be free.\ in who you are and the choices you are making. If you are confused or unsure of the choices that you are making, well be free in that as well. Who said we need to have this all nicely wrapped.

It never will be. If it was, then we have stopped growing.

Enjoy,

k.rgds

Lynn

Sorry Lynn, I find that a tough pill to swallow.

Bottom line, you support the city, province, or country you either live in or were born in. Why? They represent you, or they represent where you come from. Anyone who has played sport at a decent level would not want the type of support you offer. Its normally fickle and comes with a host of conditions. I love watching the all blacks play. I love watching the Crusaders play. I dont support them though. Being able to choose who you support in such an easy, calculating manner is hardly true support Im afraid

I support the Lions. Years of heart ache and tears. Years of poor rugby. I am a born and bred dutchman from Transvaal though, and they are my team. You dont get to choose your teams, they choose you. Its just the way it is. Anything else and you make a mockery of the locals who actually do support the sides for the right reasons.

[Preacher]

If I can add one more thing, it would be this. Sir Conan Arthur Doyle wrote of South Africans the following, in his book about the Boer War

TAKE a community of Dutchmen of the type of those who defended themselves for fifty years against all the power of Spain at a time when Spain was the greatest power in the world. Intermix with them a strain of those inflexible French Huguenots who gave up home and fortune and left their country for ever at the time of the revocation of the Edict of Nantes. The product must obviously be one of the most rugged, virile, unconquerable races ever seen upon earth.

Take this formidable people and train them for seven generations in constant warfare against savage men and ferocious beasts, in circumstances under which no weakling could survive, place them so that they acquire exceptional skill with weapons and in horsemanship, give them a country which is eminently suited to the tactics of the huntsman, the marksman, and the rider. Then, finally, put a finer temper upon their military qualities by a dour fatalistic Old Testament religion and an ardent and consuming patriotism. Combine all these qualities and all these impulses in one individual, and you have the modern Boer-the most formidable antagonist who ever crossed the path of Imperial Britain

[Blossom]

. If you contribute to this forum, you should be contributing in English.

Hope I did not offend too many with this post, but I am sure that a few of you are probably ready to lynch me now

If you are in an English environment in an English situation, yes, the smart thing to do will be communicating in the same language.

Maar, Liefie, hierdie is 'n forum vir ons Afrikaans sprekendes ook, so miskien kan jy bietjie Afrikaans praat? Sal nie seer wees nie.

Anyway, ons almal gesels ewe lekker as ons die tale so bietjie mix, dis mos die lekker manier, of hoe?

KD.