Second thoughts

[LadySnoo]

My husband and I made the decision to immigrate a few months ago but have not yet made the first steps. We are starting to have second thoughts about the sacrifice that this is going. We are well off now in our positions as my husband is in a family business we have an aspect of flexibility that we probably won't have if we leave. I would also have the option of giving up my job when we have kids if we stay in SA and I once again don't think this will be possible in Aus.

When we decided it just seemed so clear now I'm feeling like we might regret it. Unlike other people that leave we don't hate South Africa we love it here we just uncertain about the future and I feel like this lack of hate or genuine fear ( touch wood we have never been involved in violent crime directly) will draw us back to SA.

I'm not sure what I'm looking for in this post maybe I'm looking to see if this is a normal part of the process or are we really not yet in the right place to leave.

[Miley]

Hi LadySnoo, so many people on this forum call the immigration process an 'emotional roller coaster'. I now fully agree and understand what they mean, one day you are hopeful, excited, only to find a few days later you are terrified, not sure you are doing the right thing. Perhaps this is what you are experiencing at the moment?!

[Mara]

LadySnoo, I just have one question for you...perhaps you are OK for now, but what is the future going to be for any children that you have? I know where I would want to be and where I would want to raise my children, definitely not in RSA.

I do not think that people leave because they hate RSA, I think they leave because they realize that there is no chance of their children living a normal life in the conditions now and in the future.

If you have never been to Australia, perhaps come for a visit, you will be surprised at life in this country.

There are many mothers that worked in RSA and that are now stay at home mums, on one salary in the family.

[vaughanroe]

Tough descision.

My advice is if your heart is not in the move to a new country, and it does not matter which country, then you would be stupid to move and will not find happiness anywhere. It would only create heartache, cost money and a few relationships. It sounds like your life in SA is Idyllic and certainly one that most South Africans would love to live and many would be envious of. This is only important if being envied is important to you. (Not judging, everyone has the right to their own feeling after all.)

It might be good to give a few thoughts to the following before you decide.

1. The family business. Has it grown and provided for the family well throughout the years? Will it realistically continue to do so when your children need work?

2. You dont have to hate a country to want to leave it. Most people I know that have moved here do not hate South Africa, They are however abundantly aware of certain problems that South African has specifically in terms of the future.

3. The Children- What will you feel when in 20 years time one of your children says," Love you but we have to make a move for the sake of our kids." ?

ALSO

Are you assured your future children will be able to attend University, without discrimination, to study what they want.

4. Why did you even think about emmigrating from South Africa to begin with?

Immigration is not easy, the road is long and bumpy. Australia is not the magic problem solver, it also has challenges. Australia seems to be operating perfectly well without many people who are thinking of coming, but it does currently offer people some small amount of security and hope in terms of a future for their children, fairness in giving everbody a chance and the security that more often that not you can physically see where you tax money is going.

Good luck with a very though descision, I certainly am glad I dont have to make it.

[MrsJ]

Hi LadySnoo I know exactly how you feel, we keep on going back and forth with our decision and it is exhausting! I just think as soon as we have our own kids the decision will be a lot clearer and we will regret not doing it sooner.

I also just want to share the way we are currently looking at it... We have lived in the same city our whole lives and so far have been so lucky and happy. I'm not a naturally brave person and if there weren't the current problems in SA , I would happily live out my life here - never experiencing anything else. If we ended up going to Australia (give it at least 2 years hopefully 5) and decide we really aren't happy there and want to come home, will we really regret it? Yes we will have spent a lot of money and given up really good jobs here but it will have been such an experience. Will we really look back when we are old and say, "going to Australia was such a mistake, it ruined our lives," ? No way! We will probably be saying, "Wow that was so interesting/hard, what an experience. I'm so glad we were brave enough to do it!" It might make us see South Africa in a whole new light for better or worse but don't think that an experience like that can ever be bad thing. It will be really hard but at the same time character building.

Anyway that is how we are trying to look at it at the moment. Trust me we do have our days when we think this whole thing might be absolutely crazy but we are giving ourselves a couple of months to make our final decision and once that it made we need to stick with it for better or worse!

[CherylC]

We also kept going back and forth with our desicion to emigrate over about a period of 5 years. We do not have children and have been fortunate enough to not have been victims of serious crimes (although having lived in Muldersdrift for close to 10 years). We realised that we needed to make a definite desicion and asked ourselves whether we wanted to wait for someting serious to happen for us to make that choice? How will our lives be as pensioners one day? Will it be like the pensioners in Zim whose pensions virtually spiralled down to zero value with the fall of their economy? One has to actually write down what your expectations are and what you realistically predict you'll get out of life in about 5 to 30 years from now - whether living in RSA or Oz. It is not easy and no one can give you the answers. As long as you and your spouse agree to the same extent about your choice.

[VanWyke]

Hi LadySnoo

I know what you are talking about-I feel it everyday-I have so many good and positive thoughts about leaving for Australia, just to find it all in pieces moments later because of my emotions....the thought of leaving my loving parents behind is making me crazy!!!!!!!!! .....and I havent told them yet.......

But I can tell you this. We applied some years ago (withdrawn due to various reasons) when we still thought that we would be childless forever...it was easier then.

Now, after having our miracle son, it is even harder to think about migration. He adores his grandparents and he is happy in his school. Why would I want to upset him by leaving everything he loves behind and forcing him to adapt in a new country without his grandparents and loving school principal?????

But do you know what keeps me going? The fact that I know that even the state schools in Australia is so much better than the schools in RSA. Even if I wont be able to afford private schooling in Australia, my son will still get very good education. The fact that I know my son will be able to study and hopefully have a better chance of getting a fair chance (NO bee) when it comes to employement makes a huge difference.

We do not earn a lot currently. It will be a bonus if we could manage a better lifestyle in Australia. Otherwise, I am willing to start all over again, maybe being worse off in the first few years, but at least knowing my reason for making this decision: MY PRECIOUS SON.

[LadySnoo]

Thanks for the very honest comments. It has reminded me of our reasons that we had from the beginning. I think what is missing for us is kids. They are the main driving force for most families to leave. Even though I can really understand how it will be better for my future children it is only a projected feeling and not yet real to us. We know logically that it is the right thing we are just lacking the emotional drive to leave and I think most people get that from looking at there kids faces.

[AlBrough]

Everything that I would say has been said by other forum members.

I come from a family business background, now in its 4th generation and it has really become ugly with family politics and finger pointing to the point that our company is splitting into separate units.

We personally are making the move for our future children. I sadly cannot see a future here, for our children growing up and for us in old age.

Have faith, strength and courage in the choice you make

[Brad76]

Hi Ladysnoo,

It's a tough decision to make. I'm in a position now where I'm earning a significant amount each month, I have flexibility in my job and aside from the normal constraints imposed by business and the usual commercial responsibilities I can pretty much do what I want.

As nice as all that is any decision to stay would be based on the assumption that the status quo at least remains constant which I don't think it will, looking at the future and the way things are going I don't think it can. For the SA economy to develop the country needs strong leadership which it doesn't have, and will most probably never have again so I think the gradual decline we're experiencing now will continue, perhaps at an increasing rate over time.

The other consideration is my 3 year old, things may be fine for me but what about him? What kind of chance will he have at a reasonable education, reasonable job prospects, reasonable guarantee of personal safety and security etc Probably not much!!!!

Like I said this was never going to be an easy decision, in theory it all seems good but when it comes down to the nuts and bolts it's anything but!

[sianvz]

I haven't read everyone's posts but all I can say is that those who decide to stay in SA are usually those that have it quite good here financially. Decent jobs, nice house/cars etc. But who's to say that won't be pulled from under your feet out of the blue? What if that were suddenly gone, then would you stay?

Please don't make your decision based on what material things you have here and compare to what you will have there.
The value of a peaceful life with safety and security etc is no comparison to the value of your things.

[sianvz]

One thing I would like to add here...the immigration process will make you realise that you're doing the right thing.
From certified copies to unabridged certificates to police clearance, it will frustrate the living daylights out of you that you will be desperate to get out and move to a well-functioning country!

[Sunnyskies]

We couldn't make up our minds for a very long time, precisely because of what you said - we love South Africa and we had a good life. I remember sitting in my garden in 1997 with my oldest sister who was making the decision whether to stay or go, and there were just too many reasons for us to stay. So we did. It was fine, I had a great promotion, we bought our dream house and we had our children. We really had a good lifestyle. But we kept on having this conversation with friends and family about what are your options if it all goes bad, and will it all go bad, and it goes bad how bad will it go.

The final straw for us was in 2008 when I was talking to my friends whose children are the same age as mine and I worked out that people were emotionally preparing themselves for when their children left South Africa - and our children were only 7 years old. None of my friends wanted their children to feel that they had to stay because their parents couldn't or wouldn't leave.

I sat there for quite a while and thought about how I felt about potentially waving my children good-bye (possibly as young as 18 when they wanted to go to University) and knowing that they may never live in the same country as me again. I walked through our home and looked at everything that we had built up, and I realised that it was just stuff and that what was important to me was having my immediate family safe and close.

I wanted to be a granny to my children's children, and I wanted to know my children as adults. After that we started on the process and by August 2008 I had a job with a firm in Melbourne, and we moved the beginning of January 2009.

Moving was very hard, we gave up all our material comfort and went back quite a few years in our careers. It takes a while to find your feet and re-establish yourself. Now I look at it and feel that we should have made the decision earlier, although I don't think I ever could have made the decision in 1997.

My advice, you can't force something you don't feel. Moving is not for everyone, it is incredibly hard. It is hard to loose your family & friend network, it is hard to loose your business network. But do I regret the move, no. Do I think it would have been easier to move before children, absolutely.

Maybe moving is not on the cards for you, or maybe its just not on the cards right now.

[Toitjie]

Hi Ladysnoo - its not an easy decision, I think for those with children it might be a little easier. I take myself - when I didnt have kids I didnt even think about emmigration, let alone know anyone who did.

but as soon as I had them, my priorities changed and I became aware of things like the school system and the health system etc. Things I didnt think about before.

My turning point was also as Sunnyskies says, when I read a letter that a mother wrote in a magazine, a heart wrenching story of waving her children goodbye at the airport. Im not going to be that mom, I will rather take my kids now so that Im not stuck here in 20 years.

The downside of course is now I am putting my own mother in that position, but if I had to choose, I would choose my children, as hard as that sounds.

We live comfortably, I earn a good salary with a lot of benefits and zero chance of being retrenched. But my opinion is what good would any amount of material possessions do me if my husband is shot in bed next to me, or my beautiful daughter kidnapped and used as a sex-slave or if Im raped in my own home. And we have no guarantee that things will stay good. Instead of BEE on levels 1 to 9, I hear talks that BEE only on a certain level is going to be accepted (black ownership, partners etc - not mixed). If this would ever come to pass, what will become of small family businesses?

That said, it sounds very pessimistic and that is not my intention. We remind ourselves every day that this is an adventure, and we should treat it as such.

We have our visas, our house has been sold and we are planning to fly in August or September, and we still get the wtf moments, especially my hubby...who still some days feel we are making a mistake, other days he says he knows its the right thing to do.

I would suggest that you be sure before you apply, maybe visit Australia's cities, all of them. If you apply to soon you sit with the visa and if you dont want to make the move so soon you are forced into a timeframe. And I stand to be corrected, but I assume that if someone has a visa and allows it to expire, they might not get another visa if they apply again (not sure about that though)

I hope you find peace with your decision, whatever it is. You will know it when you make it.

xx

[HadEnoughofJuju]

The only people who can decide whether or not this is the right thing to do is the 2 of you. One of the things I have learnt through this process is that you have to be 100% committed to emigration from South Africa to whichever location you may choose in the end. You need to make the decision and follow it through to the end. I firmly believe that to have the visa and not use it (which IMHO would be a waste) is a way better position to be in than be like so many that desperately want to get out and can't.

Yes you will have doubts along the way and the decisions you will need to make will be hard. It has torn my heart apart to have to take my daughter away from her grandparents but it's for her that we are doing this. As a white female she has a VERY slim chance of being able to choose what direction she wants to study and she will be lucky if she can even find work once she's qualified. She has no future (like 90% of the kids her age) in South Africa and we need to do everything n our power to give her a fighting chance at a normal life.

As I said in one of my other post recently. I have never in my life hated the country of my birth more than I do at the moment. She has left me no choice in the matter. Yes it's a personal feeling and it's very different for every single forumite and immigrant but believe me when I say that once you have landed and experienced life like it should be then you will realize that the sacrifice was worth it. Australia is not perfect and it has it's problems and crime but (and this is a big but), something gets done about it. You aren't just ignored and left to fend for yourself.

I hope you find peace in the decision that you make and wish you all the best for what lies ahead of you. In the end you are the ones that need to be happy and comfortable in the place you have chosen as home.

[mainewolfe]

HEOJJ i can only hope in time that you stop being angry it is not good for your soul, for your wellbeing, for your equilibrium and for your sanity, You did make a decision albeit it you felt that your choice or lack thereof was your driver. You have now arrived in Mooloolaba and your future and wellbeing of not only yourself but your family is paramount at this time and to be angry takes a lot away from your primary focus of settling to your new life .. good luck

[Eyebrow]

Whenever I feel like staying, I watch The Big Debate on Sunday evenings. That is enough to make me put Flight Centre's number on speed dial! TIC

[TQO]

Hi LadySnoo - If I can add my two cents worth ....

So many people (myself included) feel they need to provide a justifiable reason for why they are picky eaters, why they choose to run on the road, rather than go to the gym, why their children attend private over public schools, and so forth.

When my husband initially started this process with his then wife, it had nothing to do with children (as they had none), it didn't involve a business (there was none), it didn't involve politics (the dust had settled); it merely came about as the ex wife had family in Sydney and they entertained the idea of living closer to them.

When it came to our marriage, it started off with just simply wanting a change... A fresh start at a new life, with new opportunities.

My husband had started his business working closely with his uncle and father initially (which had devastating effects on their relationships for sometime after), and due to same, they left and I had to step in and assist. Although the business has provided, and it survived the recession, it weighed heavily on our marriage and our lives in general, particularly as we worked from home and quite literally never left work.

Our decision to move to Oz was fuelled by the fact that in order to release ourselves of the business, my hubby had to source a job that could cover our costs of living and which catered for his line of work (he is an ex De Beers Mariner - rigs) - the likes of which you can only find outside of RSA and abroad.

We made the decision that if he had to work overseas (sometimes three months on and only two weeks off), why not all be together!!

Yes, the flexibility and earnings that a self owned business provides, cannot be compared to a 9-5 job, but there are so many other things to look forward to.

For us it is that my 2 boys will finally have our full attention once work ends; we will have weekends to enjoy fully for the first time in 10 years (cannot wait to explore the continent in a camper van); no more two cellphones and clients phoning before 5a.m. and after 9pm; no more financial, supplier, delivery deadlines and general work stress... The list is endless.

Why would staying at home with your then babies be an issue with schooling, medical and such benefits available to you.

I have heard of many mums who barely work three half days a week in Oz, as they absolutely get by on the salaries earned by their spouses. Obviously dependent on what type of lifestyle you are used to living.

Whilst in the throes of the application, we maintain the attitudes of; "If it doesn't work out in Oz, at least we can say WE TRIED!"

As HEJJ said - rather have the visa, have the opportunity to be ABLE to get up and go, than to kick yourselves later when those doors are no longer open and available.

We are kicking ourselves now, as if we had stopped yacking about this and put it into action four years ago, my hubby would still be 39 and we wouldn't be falling over ourselves for extra points that he lost when he turned 40.

You do not have to justify to people that you want to leave for your now, or future children. Or because you are victims of crime. Or because there are too many barking dogs in JHB! You also do not need to wait for something bad to happen - your life can be great here, with many positives, but why not better what you already have. Weigh up the pros and cons - now vs later. Often, if you put pen to paper and see the odds stacked up against each other, it generally paints a better and clearer picture. Do some homework, get the facts and even speak to one of the agents on the forum - many do not charge you until the work starts, so a few queries may go a long way in helping ease your mind about where you "are".

Know this: even when you do decide that you absolutely will be going to Oz, you will still have days where you will question, doubt and even consider pulling the plug entirely.

Having said that, don't be influenced by too much media. At the end of the day, it is only you and your man....

[Mikeleigh]

One thing I would like to add here...the immigration process will make you realise that you're doing the right thing.From certified copies to unabridged certificates to police clearance, it will frustrate the living daylights out of you that you will be desperate to get out and move to a well-functioning country!

Ha soooo true, going to redo PC for wife, they spelled her name incorrectly. nightmare, doing a little early in anticipation of delays due to postal strikes etc, and just incase theres another error, wonder if we have to pay again for the new one ? Hope our next step comes soon......

[DanieR]

TQO I absolutely agree with you. Every bit of energy and time spent thinking about the past and justifying your decisions can be so much better spent on improving your future here in Oz.

As with most of us my family originally came from Europe, and moved to SA. We are Blessed that we have the means to once again move to other parts of the world where it makes more sense to raise our kids.

This decision was made by my wife and myself, and we are prepared to face the consequences!

[Denzil]

The decision you make today has a different outcome tomorrow.

I do not hate SA, as hate is a trong word and sometimes the word hate is thrown around so many times.

It took us 2 years to make a decision.

We made the decision to go with the immigration but then let it go as we did not want the hazzle and frustration.

Then a few things happened in front of me that made the old decision to be fresh again.

It has been a frustarting, long hours, too much reading, too much google, too much hazzle, too many choices, so many rules, so many paper work, so many signatures, so many km's to get documents, so many phone phone calls, so many confused days, so many sleepless nights, to get where we are today.

Sitting back now and looking back to what has been achieved in two years I can only smile and say, "Well it's done. We have made it."

Sitting infront of a school head master and being told that the colour of you child is wrong for the school and she looks up to you for answers, What do you say? What do you do?

Sure, I have to agree to so many comments here, it's an emotional roller coaster.

No one can make the decision for you but remember that if you are not 100% committed, then it will fail 100%.

[claudiodr]

It's a really tough decision and not one to be taken lightly

SA sounds like it offers you a close family support unit and a comfortable life in terms of earnings and job security but huge uncertainty and the constant threat of danger.

Aus offers you first world security and stability and endless opportunities to succeed without discrimination but removes you from those closest to you and from you true home.

I don't have the answer, its an impossible decision that will lead simultaneously to heartbreak and jubilation whichever choice you make - That's the sad truth

Good Luck:-)

[RAD]

Ladysnoo,

I really hope you are finding clarity in whatever decision you make. It's not an easy one and it does not help that everyone you end up talking to about this, have their own biases and opinions. I can however only speak from my experience and hope that it helps in deciding. I am a non white South African so my perspective is not always the same as others on this forum. I love South Africa. My entire family is still over there. I love all of South Africa's people with all it colours and all it's accents. I would proudly sing its national anthem in all its languages not just the English bits. Here in Oz if I hear Afrikaans I get really excited because it is a language that was born in South Africa, never mind it's historical exclusion by non whites. Still it is part my history and I am proud to say it comes from my country of birth. When I see Mrs Balls chutney on the shelves here in Oz, I get so excited because again it is part my history. Even though in South Africa, Mrs Balls was never part of my cuisine or on my grocery list, still it is part of where I come from. Anyway this long paragraph was to let you know a bit about me and my attachment to SA.

Well we moved to Oz for the adventure of it. Hubby and I like to constantly expand our worldview so that we are better able to understand the variety of cultures around the world. We moved to Oz last August. We love Melbourne so that's where we settled. It is truly a stunning place. Back in South Africa, hubby was at the top of his company and I a stay at home mum. Financially we were doing extremely well. When we moved to Oz hubby did not get a job for 7 of the 8 months we were here( yes you read correctly). I however got a job after 4 months of being here. Needless to say that after 12 years of staying home that comes with own issues but did not/could not indulge those feelings because I had a family to feed. It was really tough going for us financially but we made many changes so that we could stretch our rands and limited dollars. We did not buy a car until I started work and even now we only have one car because that is all we need due to Melbournes excellent public transport system. In SA we had 3 cars. As I mentioned in a previous post I had a champagne lifestyle in SA but here I had a grape juice budget(tastes were still champagne,lol).

Anyway what I am trying, in a longwinded way to say is that, it may not be easy, it may not go as expected, it may go completely off your planned path BUT you will never know until you try. This is a fantastic country with all the modern conveniences that life has to offer. One does not even have to spend money to enjoy life. A mere stroll in the free parks or even around the neighbourhood is enough to lift ones spirits. Now that hubby has a job(finances have improved) but it is still things like walking around the neighbourhood and driving through my lovely suburb that brings a smile to my face.

In my work, I not only have to go into some of the worst neighbourhoods but sometimes have to interact with people in the most difficult circumstances. I see the realities of social problems and its effects everyday. However it has not tarnished my view of life here in Oz. I love my work. I love my life here. It such a different/odd/liberating feeling to leave ones car doors unlocked, handbag on passenger seat, drawing cash at an ATM on the street. All of these things I automatically adapted to here because that is our reality.( I don't have to tell you what our reality was in SA re these things whatever the colour of your skin not just white). Here I can leave my kids alone and be comfortable in knowing that they will be safe(I still however take all the precautions regarding children safety measures).

Well again all I can talk about is my experience and what I can tell you is that ours was a bumpy start in Oz but there were/are many things that we liked here that made us stay. I still love South Africa and I will go back to visit but I can see myself staying here for a long time. (The next move I make would be to Switzerland simply because I love Swiss chocolate,lol)

Anyway I wish you all the best in your decision and planning.

TQO: great post, I enjoyed reading it.

[AndreaL]

Hi Rad

Glad to hear you are settled and hubby has work, that will do so much for his self esteem ( especially if he was the breadwinner before) and for you both as a couple.

I too, get to see people who are having difficult times in their lives and I am glad that there is an ethos of providing support and frameworks for people to be able to help themselves in Australia, rather than ignoring or pretending that they don't exist.

For us, we had a grape juice budget ( my father worked in the mines and hubby too on and off) and here we have worked our way up to have (almost) a champagne lifestyle, but the point is that despite our different circumstances in South Africa we are both happy and love our lives here.......that must tell people something.

[LadySnoo]

H guys

I want to thank each and everyone of you that commented on this post. The reason why I have not replied after each one is because I want to give my mind some time to really understand each perspective and how they can help us with our decision. I appreciate you guys taking the time to express your views and opinions.

What I have gained from your comments:

- not everybody leaving SA hates it so its not a requirement for us.

- all the people that commented prefer the lifestyle even though they may not be earning as much as in SA

- the process is difficult and frustrating so we need to be properly committed.

- many people move without kids and have their own reasons for that.

- it seems that everyone doubts their decision at times but the pros outweighs the cons

- making the move younger and without children will be easier

And I'm sure I'm leaving some of my thoughts out here...

So this is where I stand after your guidance:

My husband and I will go to the seminar next week Thursday to get the last round of information. We will then make the decision and to a large extent we both feel that in our heart we know what to do we just know the decision will break no only our hearts but our families hearts too. I think this is the main reason why we haven't made it yet. We will then be committed to the decision we make and then have to move forward as soon as possible.

I am obsessed with this forum because it allows me to get so many different insights into the process and the move. It helps motivate me by showing how so many others that made the decision and loved it. Sorry if this post has been all over the place but that is where my head space is at and I just wanted to thank you all for your help and guidance.

Xxx

[Mara]

LadySnoo, just wanted to wish you all of the best with the decisions you have to make, and to say, that if you ever find yourself in Melbourne, you are welcome to visit.