Human Ashes

[rozellem]

I have a big nose. Not so much long, as it is huge. So I will take this even further off topic and share what I learnt last week. Warning, it is not factual, but a emotional story.

My mum was telling me about the lives and deaths of people I use to know, when she was out visiting me recently. I was shocked, but probably not surprised, to know that were they live (in the relatively peaceful Boland) the cemeteries are complete no go areas for anybody valuing their own life. Gone are the days when you could go down to the town cemetery to lay flowers or otherwise pay your respects. There are people literally living in the cemetery and all sorts of dealings go on there. At the very least you will be mugged. The graves are vandalised until nothing remains. She was telling me of a couple I know who put flowers on their daughters grave every single week and how everybody thinks they are completely mad to venture there. I did not realise that that is also a area of human life in RSA that has become the stuff of fiction. Honestly, who would have thought when these people buried their daughter 25 years ago that things would deteriorate so badly that they could not even go pay their respect in peace by her grave site. I find this heartbreaking.

[Cramer]

Carl I understand that you feel people are making fun of you and being disrespectful. I don't know when your parents died but it seems it is still a very emotional issue with you. Despite what has happened in this post, you will gain a lot from this forum, we all get knocked down here and sometimes say the wrong thing. But this forum is like a family, we forgive and move on. Just search back you will see, we all let our emotions run wild at times and we all get knocked down a peg or 2. Its all part of the journey.

The choice is yours

[Cramer]

Does raise a question, if your parents died before you decided to emigrate, would they want their ashes to leave Africa?

[Riekie]

I've resigned Carl as requested. He may feel different about the forum once he had time to consume it all. Maybe he is just a bit over- sensitive but he will have a hard time in Australia with that attitude - If you storm in guns blazing, people turn away and when you need someone to reach out, there's no one - not a lesson you'd want to learn when you're all alone in a foreign country. I really hope he will realise that we did not mean him any harm.

[AndreaL]

I agree with what you are saying Riekie.

We all know that there are no sacred cows here in Australia and if you take umbrage with everything that is said to you.............. well you are in for a very hard time.

I wish Carl the very best and hope that his journey to Australia is as pain free as possible. I would have liked to suggest to him that he not be so prickly and ready to jump on peoples words, but suspect that it would have been taken the wrong way.

Gosh, the postings this week are showing just what an emotional journey emigrating is..... before you get here and even many years after.

My final word is ( and I know that Mara has already said this elsewhere this week) respect the friendships that are forged through this forum....... I know we have our little arguments sometimes.... but there are no other group of people who know hat you are going through, or are so ready to offer support.

And that is the reason I still log in four years after joining.

[Orion25]

I wish Carl the very best and hope that his journey to Australia is as pain free as possible. I would have liked to suggest to him that he not be so prickly and ready to jump on peoples words, but suspect that it would have been taken the wrong way.

Gosh, the postings this week are showing just what an emotional journey emigrating is..... before you get here and even many years after.

respect the friendships that are forged through this forum....... I know we have our little arguments sometimes.... but there are no other group of people who know hat you are going through, or are so ready to offer support.

HI Andrea,

Thanks for this, these are such true words.

I too wish Carl well in his move to Oz, and am sorry for the way he left the forum, as Cramer said we have all done or said things on the forum where we have been corrected and brought down a peg or 2 maybe 3.

This week has been an emotional week of postings, makes one wonder what is going on maybe it's the change of season. And maybe the fact that so many people are leaving this time of year.

Regarding the friendships made on this forum, I cannot be thankful enough for them. We have met so many people personally via Coffee Clubs and just making an effort. With these friends we have made here we will now have contacts and already forged friendships when landing in Oz. I wish the same for Carl and his family.

T

[Serendipity]

Does raise a question, if your parents died before you decided to emigrate, would they want their ashes to leave Africa?

Shew what an interesting read this thread is, sorry to see Carl took it all in bad light. did not read that way to me.

As far as your Q goes Cramer - I would not bring and loved one here, why bring a loved one in a small box to a country they know little about and is not apart of who they are. A special place of theirs is the route I would go. Hopefully this is a decision I will not have to make.

Sorry Cramer to read about your loss, I never knew. All we do is natter on about wine in Canberra and worst thing I very very rarely drink!!!

[AndreaL]

From reading Carl's posts, it seems as if the plan was that his parents would be coming to Australia too- I'm not sure if that was with them or at a later date. So in that sense it would seem that he wishes to honour his parents hopes of them all being a family in Australia........ or at least that is how I read it.

Yes Cramer, I too am sorry for the loss of your son. I hope it gives you some peace to have said goodbye in a place special to you both. I can't think of a more beautiful place than the botanical gardens.

These kind of conversations make me think about family there. I think I will check in on my MIL tonight.

[Cramer]

From reading Carl's posts, it seems as if the plan was that his parents would be coming to Australia too- I'm not sure if that was with them or at a later date. So in that sense it would seem that he wishes to honour his parents hopes of them all being a family in Australia........ or at least that is how I read it.

Yes Cramer, I too am sorry for the loss of your son. I hope it gives you some peace to have said goodbye in a place special to you both. I can't think of a more beautiful place than the botanical gardens.

These kind of conversations make me think about family there. I think I will check in on my MIL tonight.

No Worries Andrea it was 10 years ago now, I think scattering ashes helps brings closure. For me Its what I carry in my heart!

[mrniceguy]

I stopped reading after the angry response.

We need to think back to when we "were South African", we were very angry people. Not even tolerant of our own immediate family members, snap at the mildest deviation from what we considered to be normal.

South African's must change when we get to Aus and most have. You will only realize what you were when you become the real you !

[Riekie]

For me Its what I carry in my heart!

So true.....

[Cramer]

I stopped reading after the angry response.

We need to think back to when we "were South African", we were very angry people. Not even tolerant of our own immediate family members, snap at the mildest deviation from what we considered to be normal.

South African's must change when we get to Aus and most have. You will only realize what you were when you become the real you !

I for one am glad for the change, back in SA I worked 9km from home. the trip took me an hour normally. Here I am 9.5km from home, takes me 15 mins. I no longer curse bad drivers and road hogs, I don't miss mini buses and now I sing and whistle with the radio. My major source of stress and anger were left on the roads back there.

[HansaPlease]

Maybe it's me that needs to be more tolerant... I'm not as forgiving as some of you...

[AndreaL]

Maybe it's me that needs to be more tolerant... I'm not as forgiving as some of you...

Aagh! HansaPlease

We all know that deep down you are a big softy..................... you just don't want everyone to know this

[HansaPlease]

Shhhh.... you'll let my secrets out...

[Cramer]

Shhhh.... you'll let my secrets out...

TO LATE!

[Also new]

Carl

I happen to have known your parents. They were caring, loving decent people that had the respect of their whole community. I, like the rest of South Africa were shocked to the bone and disgusted beyond at their ruthless and brutal murder.

My heart goes out to you and your family during this very emotional and hard time.

To those who made this man’s question into the total mess, this is what happened to them:

Carl’s parents had visas and air tickets to come to Australia but they were savagely murdered in their home before they could make it out of South Africa.

He came to this forum for real help and support and you turned this man’s sorrow and hurt into an opportunity to get your own opinions and own agendas onto a serious posting. There clearly was no regard for his feelings and the disrespect shown to him and his serious questions disgusts me. Even after he asked not to turn his posting into a chat room, you deliberately pushed on to show him who is boss on this forum, aggravating him to his outburst. Not a single one asked him if he is OK and how you can help him. Rather you kept on adding irrelevant comments and drove this man away from this forum in the end.

Carl, it is totally untrue that Australians will joke and show disrespect about their dead as some people on here suggested to you. The fact is, people like Cramer will meet a very ill fate if he ever tried to insult a real Australian the way he disregarded your feelings and needs for help. Australians honor and respect their dead very much.

I am also shocked at the way the Host handled this post. Surely a host has the responsibility to stop people from making such a farce out of something this serious and hurtful? In this case, the host Riekie did not give Carl any advise or support, but rather opted to join her fellow posters in sharing their own stories and irrelevant postings. I do not see the need for a host like her if she allows people to ridicule what was a very serious and important question that may help many people in the same situation.

I believe in my heart that you should personally apologize to Carl, his whole and family and all the other readers of this forum that you offended by your disrespectful and even deliberate comments to upset Carl. Cramer went as far as talking about his driving to work – it has no relevance to the question and shows his intent to push his own postings no matter how insensitive and unwanted it is.

Yet, this forum chose to delete a new member in true need. If this is the way this forum operates, then please delete my name as well as I will have no part in this as I am ashamed to be a South African and to be associated with these people on this forum.

[HansaPlease]

Hang on a second...

I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that, had anybody in this thread known the circumstances surrounding Carl and his parents, the comments would not have happened the way they did, and this thread would not have turned out as it has.

It absolutely goes without saying, that knowing the circumstances, I will be the first to apologise to Carl for being insensitive, I have the utmost sympathy for his circumstances, that is a terrible thing to happen to anybody, and it just shouldn't happen. For that, and for aggravating his feelings over what was obviously a tragic event, I am truly sorry.

However, before you make us out to be a bunch of heartless hyenas, this thread has to be taken into context.

Carl posted the initial question fairly casually on an open internet forum, and I (and I'm sure others) assumed that for somebody to be able to post a question on an internet forum, it can't be that sensitive a subject. Sure, he may not have wanted to elaborate for obvious reasons, I understand that, but then you can't blame people for replying with their points of views when that's the way things work on any other thread on any other forum.

I think things got out of hand when Carls response bit - my natural reaction is to bite back, of course! If he had posted something to the effect of "come on guys, this is something very sensitive to me, can you keep it serious" I'm sure not a single person would have carried on the way we did, and we would have been nothing but supportive.

My previous experience with Carl was based on him attacking Mara on a previous thread (about agents) and he seemed to me to be a very angry man. I'm not saying he's not justified in being angry, I can't imagine what he's going through, however - I say again, on a public forum, you're going to have to accept that you're going to get out what you put in! None of us are mind-readers.

For one second – imagine you don’t know Carl, you don’t know the circumstances of his parents’ death and then read the thread again (as well as the other one about immigration agents where he argued with Mara) as a total outsider, and then tell me honestly, can you really blame us for not acting with more compassion – considering how little we knew, and how quick Carl was to attack?

Carl, it is totally untrue that Australians will joke and show disrespect about their dead as some people on here suggested to you. The fact is, people like Cramer will meet a very ill fate if he ever tried to insult a real Australian the way he disregarded your feelings and needs for help. Australians honor and respect their dead very much.

This is completely out of context and you’re putting words in my mouth. I did not say that Australians make fun of the dead at all. I was aiming this more at the fact that Carl seems to shoot from the hip and take offence quite easily (again, my experience was probably jaded by his previous outburst)... and that he will need to think a bit before he takes offense so easily. Once again, knowing what we know now, of course I understand why he's upset - I can't blame him for reacting the way he did - but once again I reiterate - we are not mind readers, we don't know what people are going through until they tell us.

Once again, I am truly sorry for what happened to his parents, and I feel sick to think about what happened to them - and that we were partly to blame for rubbing salt in Carl’s wounds and making him feel worse, however, he needs to take some responsibility as well.

[Mara]

Well said HansaPlease, could not have done any better myself.

[Cramer]

.... The fact is, people like Cramer will meet a very ill fate if he ever tried to insult a real Australian the way he disregarded your feelings and needs for help. ......

All I said was

but why would you want to take someones ashes. I find that a little creepy!

I apologised more than once!!!!, or did you miss that part! My father and brother hunt, I find that very Creepy that you can snuff out the life of a helpless animal with a bullet and not feel anything. BUT I DON'T THINK THEY ARE CREEPY! This was totally blown out of proportion!. real Australians would not be overly sensitive without first explaining the situation properly, like Carl and trust me I am working with them every day.

I am so glad to be out of South Africa where emotions run so high and you have to be careful what you say because it might get twisted to sound like an insult or an attack!

Also new considering the number of posts you have made 1 it seems you only joined this forum to be a trouble maker!

Nice reply HansaPlease!

[Also new]

No Cramer,I read some other postings on this site and decided to rather use another forum where assholes like you do not go from posting to posting and add your comments and where people are actually helping others. You carry on here, you important man.

[Also new]

Well said HansaPlease, could not have done any better myself.

Mara

Thank you so kindly for the wealth of information that you supply to people on this Forum. I noticed that you very seldom get the thank you's you deserve. Please do not stop what you are doing. As you know, this whole leaving your country thing is quite a difficult thing to do and people like you make it a bit easier.

[Hendie]

No Cramer,I read some other postings on this site and decided to rather use another forum where assholes like you do not go from posting to posting and add your comments and where people are actually helping others.

Well, good luck with that Also new. Just so you know we do keep an eye on what's said on this forum, and funny as it may seem we are criticized more often than not for removing posts and infringing on folks' "freedom of speech". The fact that this thread has stood uncensored should be an indication to you that the host team finds it OK. Anyone who turns to the open Internet for what they consider a sensitive issue, should have their heads read, but be that as it may, I believe some really good advice was given here, as unusual as this topic is. The success of SAAustralia is the diversity of our members and the vast spectrum of experiences and points of view represented here. It is the task of the discerning reader to take what works for them, and to ignore the rest (hmmm ... just as I would advise for the whole Internet!).

Enjoy!

[EricaC]

No Cramer,I read some other postings on this site and decided to rather use another forum where assholes like you do not go from posting to posting and add your comments and where people are actually helping others. You carry on here, you important man.

Good grief! Although I am no longer in OZ, I still have many wonderful mates on this forum, most who I still chat to on a daily basis, and we still PM each other, so I naturally check the forum from time to time. I think to use the term a**holes - just show us your aggressive nature, yes, this story is tragic and bone chilling, and these dear people did not deserve that fate. I think considering this is a family forum, you would be better off using another one.It is a pity, because there is such a huge amount of info and advice on this forum, which you will sadly miss out on.....and great people, who in time, can become some of your closest friends in a Country that is new to you.

To all the 'oldies' this reminds me of that 'Rosa' saga some time back

E

[Orion25]

To all the 'oldies' this reminds me of that 'Rosa' saga some time back

E

To that I agree.