Kids out of control!!

[bluebonnet]

An Australian colleague was chatting to me the other day about the appalling behaviour of some kids in Aus and she was blaming it on "the culture of the child" - that children may be the most important thing in their OWN parent's lives, but until they are taught that other members of society are equally important, and to respect others, they cannot learn the behaviour required to coexist within society.

Not sure what things are like at the Catholic schools in your area, but in Perth the pupils attend church services and have religious instruction. The kids also go through their first Holy Communion, Reconiciliation and Confirmation at the school, so if you are against a Christian education I would caution you about going that route!

My son was in a Catholic school for 2 year before moving on to a different private school. You are right, students attend church services (once a week) and have religious instruction. Since we are not Catholic he did not partake in Holy Communion.(many students were not Catholic) It was just another experience in his life, (a good one) and the education was excellent. Catholic Schools are normally cheaper than other private schools.

[bluebonnet]

I have said it time and time again- go private

I agree. I cannot speak for Australia, but in the US private schools are not very expensive, unlike the International School (English education)here in Switzerland which we now have to deal with. Catholic Schools are normally cheaper than other private schools. It is sad that people have to find a private school for their children because public schools are just not what they used to be. We were also told it depends in what school district you live, but that is not really always the case. You can live in an "excellent" school district and still have a school you are not happy with. So I went private.

[zorba]

Hi Candice

Sorry to hear about your dilemma.

I don’t want to sound partisan, but I note that you are in NSW, and please don’t get this the wrong way, but you live in the worst governed state in Australia (according to developed, 1st World standards) and the bad management includes the NSW State Education System.

What I want to highlight, is to demonstrate that the problems that you mentioned do exist in Oz, but the difference is how they are managed from region to region or between the states. I want to give you and others a glimmer of hope, should your kids ever end up in the South Oz Education System.

South Australia, where I teach, is a light year or two ahead of NSW in most matter educational. If the same incident occurred in the school where I teach the following would have happened:

* You would have been contacted by either phone or letter, informing you of the incident, and the consequences to the aggressor, and how your kid was supported.

* You would have been invited to a face to face meeting with the Principal to discuss the matter further if you wanted to.

* Physical violence is grounds for instant suspension anywhere in South Oz.

* Repeat offences may incur exclusion (temporary enrollment at a behaviour centre for up to 10 weeks), or an alternative programme in the school where the child follows a programme with minimal contact with other kids.

* We have a system of “bullying audits†(kids identity bullies confidentially without fear of retaliation) in order to identify bullies early and to nip them in the bud.

It was hard work to develop our school to the standard where we are now, and we still “have some momentsâ€, but random and daily school-yard violence is the exception at my school. we are a lot of tough, no-nonsense teachers at that school, and the “liberal-softie†approach is not really in our paradigms.

We have some “charactersâ€, make no mistake, but their parents for the most part know better that to rescue their little darlings when they have screwed up. Some take their kids out and enroll them elsewhere, only to find the same system and expectations there.

I’m not trying to paint South Australia as an Utopia in this regard. The difference is that we at least tackle these problems head-on and try to make a difference.

I hope things will work out for your child, no kid deserves to be bullied in such a way. If things does not improve, PM me and I’ll speak to our Schools’ Cousellor, maybe she will have some specific advice or ideas.

Cheers,

Dax

Excellent post Dax!

I would however like to reassure those who are coming to NSW that there are some really good schools in this state.

A lot depends on careful selection of a school for your children, and I know this may not be practical in smaller towns where there aren't that many schools to choose from.

As Dax pointed out, all good schools should have policies in place. How effectively those policies are actually enforced depends largely on the culture at that particular school.

Many parents feel anxious or even intimidated when choosing a school:

Will my child get in, is his work up to their standards, will he fit in and make friends?

I look at it from a different angle:

Is this school the right school for my child, what can they offer, is it a safe, welcoming and stimulating environment, are the teachers suitably qualified, how does the governing body work, how active is the PCA, is there a student counsellor, is there a student mentor program in place, what facilities do they offer, do they take "out of area" students and if so WHY?

Ask about academic results and past students, ask to see the technology labs, peek into the toilet block, check out the canteen. A quick 5 minute tour will reveal a multitude of things!

It's pretty much the same as going for a job interview - the company wants to assess if they want you on board, but you also need to decide if you actually want to work for THEM!

If possible identify a few schools within reasonable travelling distance from your work, if you already have a job lined up, or in suburbs you like - select from these and only once you have identified a school, then look for a rental.

A good school and your child's happiness are way more important than finding the "perfect" house. Rather let Mom and Dad travel a bit further to work, but kids are happy and settled! Happy kids = happy parents!

Back to the topic now...

Candice, I hope you have managed to sort something out at school. I am sure there will be many grateful parents when this little tyrant finally gets taken to task!

[Goldie]

Thank you Dax.

I always say, NSW is a country all on it's own. I have to say though, in agreement with Zorba, the first school my girls went to, dealt with bullying in the way you described above and the child who hit my daughter was suspended. The class teacher came out to tell me what had happened and how they had dealt with it. I wasn't happy about the fact that she had been hit, but was satisfied that it had been dealt with accordingly. That school was out of our zone and I had looked around at about 5 schools before deciding on that one.

However second time round I wasn't as dilligent and I'm starting to feel a bit guilty. I really didn't do my homework properly. We were being reclocated midyear and we were battling to find a rental from a distance. We even drove down for a long weekend to try and secure a rental. Turned out all the real estates closed for the long weekend

Fortunately there was a private rental which we saw, liked and got. As it was a weekend, there was no way of getting to see the schools, besides driving past. We had planned our move to ensure the girls didn't miss any school and would start the 3rd term in the new school. I emailed the headmistress at the current school, which we are zoned for, explaining our situation and the fact that we are on a temp residents exemption blah blah blah and she replied promptly. She then went about doing all the necessary work with authorities to enrol etc etc, so that it would all be sorted for the first day of 3rd term. I thought she was a star. Turns out she was an "acting principal" as the real principal was on long leave and returned in the 4th term. Besides that, the teachers and secretaries are all helpful and friendly. It just seems that their hands are tied when it comes to disciplining the kids, or as Dax says, the school obviously doesn't have systems in place. The school also seems to attract a fair bit of riff raff, unfortunately.

We have decided not to move the girls now. Purely for the fact that we know we will be moving on as soon as our PR comes through. Don't want the girls to have to change now and then in a few months time have to move on again (if we are lucky enough to get PR in a few months time at the rate things are going). This is already the 2nd school in a year. If another incident occurs, we will then take serious action. I am still going to have a talk to the principal on Monday, as yesterday was a disaster with the half day strike thing (I think it was a NSW education meeting about low teacher's salaries). Fortunately both daughters came out of school without a care in the world yesterday and then "Mother" starts wondering if she's over reacting. Kids!

Will let you all know what Mrs Principal has to say.

Candice

[Gizmo]

With regard to all the suggestions to change school because of this incident.

If you do consider this course of action, don't neglect to weigh up the emotional effects of one bad kid in a school vs the emotional effects of your child losing all her friends and having to make new ones, plus develop new relationships with new teachers etc etc - which is what happens when they change schools.

There is no quick and easy solution (like changing schools - which in my opinion would equate a huge, unnecessary and confusing punishment of your child.)

From a childs persepctive the message you are sending out to your child is that if you tell me you get hit, then I will turn your world upside down. I suspect it will probably be one of the last times they come to you with a problem.

Try to sort it out with the school first before changing schools. Remember, bullying happens at ALL schools - yes even private ones and new kids are the most suseptible.

Edited February 6, 2009 by Gizmo

[noodles]

Sorry OMZIG, had to re-read and re-read your post - do you by any chance of kids???

[noodles]

Hey Candice

SO sorry to hear what has happened to your child! That behaviour is totally unacceptable and I could not imagine my boys having to endure something like that! Please keep us posted on the situation.

Take care

Annette

[Omzig]

Sorry OMZIG, had to re-read and re-read your post - do you by any chance of kids???

Noodles, I assume you are asking if I "have" kids. I do. And I don't want to overprotect them unreasonably, because I believe that it will not be too good for them in the long term. Or, to use someone else's very special logic: "If my parents grew up during the horrors of WWII and they turned out OK, why are we worried about one playground bully?".

Please, note use of the word "unreasonably".

[Tracy]

I have said it time and time again- go private

Sorry, but I have to comment on this.

Private does NOT mean the problems go away; I should know coming from the nightmare I did as a teacher in Alice Springs.

[Dax]

Tracy has a valid point above.

Be wary of some Catholic schools, to an extent they are the trash cans of some state and private schools.

Cheers,

Dax

[noodles]

Noodles, I assume you are asking if I "have" kids. I do. And I don't want to overprotect them unreasonably, because I believe that it will not be too good for them in the long term. Or, to use someone else's very special logic: "If my parents grew up during the horrors of WWII and they turned out OK, why are we worried about one playground bully?".

Please, note use of the word "unreasonably".

Sorry mean't to say "have" kids, and I still don't agree with your post........"dont want to overprotect them unreasonably"........ - we are talking about a 9 year old being punched in the face????...................."why are we worried about one playground bully"................. - well we are when it affects our children......

I really don't mean to have a go at you at all, I just don't think your post came across very sympathetically to someone whose child has been bullied and injured.

Candice, sorry to "hijack" your post like this. We look forward to hearing the outcome of this situation.

Annette

[AndreaL]

Hi Candice

I have just asked my daughter Jade about her class, do the kids swear- is there bullying and so on.

Seems the strongest word used in class was damn and the teacher was straight on it, Jade can't see anything wrong with the word so I explained that if the teacher allows that word then the kids will use other, far more rude words.

We have chatted before, so you know that Jade was bullied at a catholic school in Perth and this was dealt with.

The school she attended in Albany had big problems, my neighbours daughter and another girl regularly got into fights, parents were called in, school psychologist and the end result was that the bully was transferred to another class.

I am not sure that this solves the problem as the problem then becomes someone elses problem.

Dax is right that different states deal with anti- social behaviour in different ways.

NSW does seem to have anti bullying policies in place, have a read through this link NSW- school discipline

So what to do?

Use the information you find within this policy, contact the school for an appointment with the principal, explain what has happened and ask them what the schools approach is to dealing with incidents like this.

Tell the principal that you have to know that your child is safe at school and what assurance can they give that this will not happen again?

Perhaps your daughter would benefit from a chat with the school psychologist and I would hope that the bully would too.

I wouldn't just let this go, the school needs to know that you want some action rather than this just being ignored- neither child benefits from that.

I personally don't believe in corporal punishment in schools, I was educated in both the UK and RSA and encountered bullies ( not just the kids ) in both systems.

My first year of High School in Ermelo was a year of intense fear due to a particularly vindictive maths teacher- however I survived.

Yes, our children will be exposed to a variety of negative experiences at school and in the world in general, but our first duty as parents is to protect them and then provide them with the skills needed to deal with these situations.

Talk to the school and see what they are prepared to do, then if you are not happy contact the NSW education department, you have every right to complain if need be.

Good luck and let us know the outcome, your experience will help many parents who may have to deal with similar situations.

[miran]

Excellent post Dax!

I would however like to reassure those who are coming to NSW that there are some really good schools in this state.

A lot depends on careful selection of a school for your children, and I know this may not be practical in smaller towns where there aren't that many schools to choose from.

September '08 the results of some National Exam in Literacy and Numeracy (I think it was for Gr. 3 and Gr. 6) showed that NSW schools actually scored the highest......

Bullying in the school I teach at is dealt with quite effectively during schoolhours: Nr. 1 - The teacher must not leave the classroom! Nr. 2 - Our detention is during breaktime for a week, and if a child bullies, he is taken of the playground immediatly and stays in detention for a week. Letter to his parents that same day.

Reality is that the bully normally comes from a disfunctional home and needs psychological help the most.... We also try to build up their selfesteem by getting them involved in sports or chess.

Just prepare your child mentally for future incidents (eg. don't show your emotions: bullies pick kids that shows fear or cry ect; avoid places that you know the bully will be at, if possible; there is power in numbers, stay in groups)

Good luck, I still have green wheat on the field (youngsters) and my day of dealing with bullies will come: unfortunately there will always be bullies.....

[bluebonnet]

Tracy has a valid point above.

Be wary of some Catholic schools, to an extent they are the trash cans of some state and private schools.

Cheers,

Dax

Maybe that could be the reason why they are cheap.?? My experience at a Catholic school was actually very good, except for daily 3 hours homework, even school holidays always had homework and some or other major project, which I found unnecessary. One other good thing was that the kids had to do volunteer work.

[Goldie]

Well, just to put closure to my daughter's incident, for those who are wondering what the outcome has been. As I was not able to see the principal on Friday due to wage strikes, I sent her a long email over the weekend. Basically I outlined the incident and explained that I was not satisfied in the manner that it was handled and the fact that I was not notified. I also asked her to give me a copy of school rules and anti bully systems that the school may have, as I had never been given a copy of these when the girls started at the school mid last year. I also requested details of how the boy was dealt with in this instance.

I have just received a call from the principal, thanking me for following up. Apparently on Thursday last week, there had been numerous incidents, including the child who went beserk and put the classes into lock down. She admits that Kayley's incident had not been handled properly and that under normal situations, I would have been notified immediately, but for some or other reason, there were a series of incidents one after the other last week and she was busy dealing with these when my daughter came in.

She has followed up this morning and assures me that the boy has been put into detention for 3 days this week and will have the anti bully acts drummed into him, along with the other boys who were causing trouble on that day. She says she will also be calling my daughter in to chat to her and to reassure her that this behaviour will not be tolerated and that she must not hesitate to report any incidents in the future or feel unsafe at school. She also said that each class is having the school rules and anti bully acts reinstructed to them to ensure that these incidents stop. She says they also have a councillor available if I feel my daughter needs help in dealing with such incidents.

I feel a lot better and feel reassured that this group of boys are being monitored closely and that the teachers are in fact aware and ontop of the situation. Further problems from these boys will result in suspension. She has told me her door is open for any further concerns. I am now better informed as to the school's policies on these matters.

Thanks to all for your advice and comments.

Candice

[zorba]

Hi Candice,

I'm so glad that it's finally been dealt with. The worst part is when you feel no-one is even acknowledging the problem, let alone dealing with it.

I hope your daughter is feeling a lot happier now. And well done to you for keeping a cool head and remaining so calm, I'm sure that helped your daughter too.

zorba

[Lyn]

Pleased to hear you kept at it and just didnt let it go.

Now they know you are one of those moms who will not hesitate to get on their case to protect your child.

To go independent / government will always be a headache. I walked past Marist Brothers College the other day and was curious so watched some teenage boys who had just returned from the shops - the language flowing out of their mouths was appalling. Another thing I find a little odd here in Australia is that at break / recess the kids go to the malls or to their homes and then return for class.

Good luck everyone with kids -

[Enrica]

Maybe that could be the reason why they are cheap.?? My experience at a Catholic school was actually very good, except for daily 3 hours homework, even school holidays always had homework and some or other major project, which I found unnecessary. One other good thing was that the kids had to do volunteer work.

Catholic schools are not c heap, they are subsided by the Catholic Church and we all know what a fantasctic religious body that is.

The Primary school are cheaper that the other Semi Private schools, but their high school are

at the same level of fees as the the other Semi Private schools.

[Jill]

Hi Candice,

Glad you managed to get this sorted out. When we let things go, it is like accepting this behaviour as normal. My son was stabbed in his chest with a pen at his high school a few years ago. Broke his skin in two places, went straight through his shirt.

They dealt with it straight away, we were called in, the boy's parents were called in, I was livid, to say the least, but I was happy with how it was handled, and it never happened again.

Cheers Jill

[AllisonW]

Shew, this is such a difficult topic. as parents we want the best for our children and for many of us this drive for the "best" is what pushes us to pack up our family and move half way across the globe. So i can imagine the anger and pain when this safe environment results in a negative experience for one of our children. Sure, we all understand that no place is perfect etc but the reality is that we want our kids to be safe.

Candice, i just want to say that i think that you did a really good job of contianing your daughter and dealing with the incident. I totally agree with others that you cant let bullying go. Your kids need to know that you have their back and that they can count on you to mediate when the world gets scarey. As for people who comment that this is just a learning curve, well others have already commented, but really! There is no excuse for a nine year old getting punched in the face and she doesnt have to be exposed to anything like that!

As a mother i know that i cant always control the world that i am exposing my children to. What i can do is give them a safe, unconditional space to start from. I can let them know that they are loved and accepted. I can teach them that they can control their own emotions and that they always have a choice in terms of how they react to a negative experience. I can teach them that they have rights and show them how to exercise these rights by demonstrating this when i defend them. I can teach them to be moral, fair people and to understand that they dont have to behave badly if it is contradiction to their values.

I think that you have done all of this Candice. Dont let this get you down. This incident has taught your daughter a lot of things but not because of the bullying but because of the way you dealt with it.

Your daughter has the right to be safe wherever she is.

Al

Ps: I am a social worker and I do smack my kids although that may be the unpopular stance at this point in time. I DONT abuse my kids and they never have a mark on them. Honestly, as a mom of boys only, sometimes immediate boundaries are required. This doesnt mean that i always smack and that i dont use time out etc. Children need boundaries!

[bluebonnet]

Catholic schools are not c heap, they are subsided by the Catholic Church and we all know what a fantasctic religious body that is.

The Primary school are cheaper that the other Semi Private schools, but their high school are

at the same level of fees as the the other Semi Private schools.

I just speak out of my own experience. You must have meant subsidized. We know Catholic Schools are subsidized by the church, but that is not my point. My point is that they are cheap for the parents who have to pay. Back in Houston they cost a fraction of most other private schools.

I do not want to debate on Catholic Schools, or the Catholic Church, I am not Catholic, but I have only good to say about the 2 years my son was in a Catholic School. Wonderful teachers, wonderful kids, excellent education, very advanced. That was just our experience. Other people might have totally different stories to tell.