Kids out of control!!

[Omzig]

OZNSW,

although I'm no child psychologist, I have a good friend who is one, and he specializes in bullying. He often said that statistically, it's the bullies who end up with serious problems later on, typically with convictions, social adaptation issues, and a criminal record. Bullying has been linked to the experience of corporal punishment, because it makes the acceptance of "raising the hand" much higher. The bullied kid is statistically OK in the long term.

All I'm saying is that your experience is very worrying. It would certainly worry me a lot, if I were in your shoes.. However, seen from certain observer's viewpoint, it does not necessarily spell doom and gloom in the long term. Kids are quite resilient, sometimes more so than we are. And we shouldn't compare our childhood to what is the current norm. Who is to say we grew up in the only appropriate way?

I also agree that monitoring the situation is the correct approach, for sure.

[Julian (Jules)]

Your daughter was punched by an antisocial kid? Negative experience - the best teacher. Bad language? She will get exposed to it sooner or later.

I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Your answer is correct from a theorectical perspective and easy to say as a detached observer. But as a parent, who is emotionally involved, it is not as easy to have your attitude toward the problem. If your child is assaulted, the parent must take action. If it were me, I would have been at the school and met with the priciple of the school to get details and then I would have called in the police. I know nothing would come out of the charges but I would press charges never the less. The police need a record. Chances are the little punk wont pick on the child again.

Just letting the school "talk" to the bully is not enough. He could do it again. Involve the police - it is assualt and I don't care how young the child was. Yes kids need to learn to handle things alone but at 9 years old, she is too young. It is a parent's duty to protect their child... there are better ways to learn conflict handling than getting punched in the face.

Edited February 5, 2009 by Julian (Jules)

[Willem Pretorius]

Hi Candice,

What happend with your daughter is not normal and you should not feel bad by getting upset.

Call me old fashioned, call me what ever but smacking a little girl in the face is criminal and just because it happens all around the world does not mean we have to tolerate it.

If possible place your kids in another school and hope for the best, we had to do it so i am speaking from experience.

We all raise our kids to the best of our abilities and we all have different values, life styles and ideas.

Besides love, there are two spesific values that is critical in the upbringing of a child and that is discipline and respect.

A child have to be taught this from a very young age or you are wasting your time.

Let a kid roam free for all his life, have his way all the time and then at 16 or 18 try and install these values and hope he or she will change.

People who believe it, live in a dream world.

95% of the kids at such a young age, similar to the kid that attacked your daughter and the other children in the school, have their parents to blame.

I would just like to say that you are not alone in your bad experiences.

I thought initially that my kids were the only kids from SA that struggle a bit to adapt.

You have people say all the time that all SA kids are so happy in OZ and it feels if yours are not, they are the only ones with issues.

That was untill i started asking questions to other people we know from SA, in Queensland, NSW, Victoria and WA.

It was a eye opener to find out how many kids from all ages are having a tough start in Oz, shockingly some kids worst off than my my 2.

A while back there was another post, "Today is one of those days" and reading through the entire post confirmed my little bit of research.

Look, it is no surprise.

Coming to a new country, new cultures - we expect things to be tough but some issues like the attack on your daughter is just way out of line.

We need to embrace our kids when they are hurting emotionly and physically, and not just tell them that "sh#t happens"(pardon the pun) you are in another country, get on with life because that is the way life is.

The irony is that the world is the way it is today exactly because people just tolerate everything, let everything slide.

You are a great mom, speaking up on this public forum where you might take some flack from other parents with different views.

We have to be there for our kids, be a shoulder for them to cry on and when they look in our eyes, they must see compasion,understanding and real love flowing from them.

If we do not stand up for our kids, who will?

What is good news though, is that the Austrailian Government already recognized that schooling and the youth are a problem.

Task teams have been set up to investigate.

And if there is one thing about Australians, if they say something - they do it.

I have the greatest respect for the Australian Government.

A simple example is binge drinking in Melbourne and the violence that goes with it. The Police increased their numbers immediately and must now try and educate these youngsters as they go along. Several new ads appeared on television regarding alcohol abuse.(Wheter it will help, i do not know.)

But the Aussies take action, it's not just talk.

I am 100% with Smartie and JimmyC, a smack on the bum have done me no harm when i was a child, just did me the worlds good and a smack on the bum have done my kids no harm when they needed it. My kids are much older now, besides giving a hiding being outlawed it is too late to try and shape them now.

And a hiding does not mean abusing your child blue and purple.

You need to guide, form, shape, encourage a kid at a young age.

Many anti-smack people will attack me on this issue and i am totally fine with it.

Just look at the world today with all the crime and murder.

Look at the countries that do not have the death penalty and look at their crime and murder rate.

Look at the countries that have the death penalty and severe punishments, compare the murder rates.

The anti-death penalty guys can have a full go at me as well but the statistics prove everything.I don't have to say a word.

The principle is the same.

Sometimes wispering "Be a good little boy and don't do it again" just don't cut it.

As for the comment on transparency, my kid that recieved a smack on the bum when she needed it, recieved an invite to a party last year at the age of 14. On the invite it stated that she must just bring her own booze. AT 14!

She declined the party and only told us later and showed us the invite.

She could have gone, drink behind our backs, we would have never known. But she choose not to. Out of fear for a smack? I don't think so.

In Big W an elderly lady came to me and said my kids are well mannered becaused they picked up clothes from the floor that others bumped of the racks.

Out of fear or for the show? I don't think so. As i was not even close, don't really like to walk around the womans under wear section.

My kids are no angels, having a go at each other every now and then, gets up set on occasion and all the rest,typical teenagers but the wack on the bum they got when they were younger and needed it, help them as much as it did me when i deserved it.

And now you know why i don't often place posts , i talk to much.

These issues can be debated for years on end.

We are all just different and the above is my opinion.

Candice, i really feel sorry for your daughter.

She has a swollen face that is still hurting now.

When she goes back to school she will have to listen to comments on how she was beaten and re-live everything.

And it will hurt all over again.

And the possibility exists that she will now live in fear while in the school because she might be attacked again.

I am glad you shared your feelings with us, it's helps a bit to talk about it.

I hope that your comfort and motherly love will help your daughter recover soon.

All the best

Willie

[Sibella]

I am very shocked at your experience.

We live in the UK and my daughter is in Year 2 in a small but excellent public school. I have never, ever heard any child use bad language and have not heard of any bullying going on.

As far as pearcings etc. - earring are not even allowed. When we got here my daughter's ears were pierced but because no one else had them she took them out. No jewellry allowed and specified school uniform. In fact today we had a cake sale at school and each teacher came in with their class and after buying their cakes the teacher encouraged them to say thank you. Good manners and respect are very important.

Their teachers are very strict and when the kids misbehave they 'get told off' and sent to the 'Quiet Room' or not allowed to play at playtime or have to wait until everyone else has finished before they can have their lunch.

There are many ways to discipline children and good discipline comes from both the way parents bring up their children (we stay in quite an affluent area with high moral values) and from the way the school is managed. I also realize this changes as they grow older - and yes the teenagers here go to school with long hair and short skirts, but this is to be expected from teenagers - not nine year olds.

Reading these things about Australia makes me worry about our decision to immigrate there, as I have not been disappointed in the UK school system. They are often too overprotected, too worried about what their children eat, how they behave etc. But this is surely better than the total disrespect and immorality that I often read about going on in Australia.

[bluebonnet]

Thanks for all the replies.

Gizmo, the 2 incidences were at 2 separate schools unfortunately, so no, not even the same child or her being victimized.

Omzig, I know well that piercings do not reflect personality as adults............I happen to have a few myself....but I'm and adult and did not need my parents' consent to have these done. Here in Australia you need a parent's signature to have anything pierced if you are under 16, so it baffles my brain that a parent would sign for a 10 year old to have a big diamond stud in her lip. Plenty of time for that later in life if they choose to do so. As for swearing, my children are far from sheltered, but have been horrified at how some children speak to their parents or teachers.

Anyway, I do not want my childrens' life experiences to be learnt through being punched and bullied and having to learn to do the same back. Especially seen as the 2 at school already are girls. Will defintitely be monitoring the situation. I'm sure it's not a problem at all schools, but has just been unfortunate for us that both schools seem to have a major problem with bullying.

I agree with you on everything, well said. I was bullied once in elementary school, I told my dad, he went to school,,,it never happened again. But that was long ago, I think it is more difficult today.

[Kita]

Hi when I read your story I was very shocked, and worried. But when I thought about it, I have been to the headmaster complaining at my daughters private school as a 7 year old boy had kicked her in the stomach and legs on a few occasions. My daughter is 8. She has been called retard. So it seems to happen in South Africa as well, and I think it does stem from the parents but if there is good policys at the school then they can prevent it reoccuring.

When I complained was told my child was sensitive and should go to a physcologist. Seems bullies rule.

[zorba]

I agree, u can expect it from a teenager but not a little one.

I definately blame the parents all the way...... And if you cant smack in Oz u can certainly take away the kids privileges - That never harmed anyone

OZNSW, I am so sorry about what happened to your daughter, it is totally unacceptable!

If I were you I would press charges. Those parents need to take responsibility for their child's actions. If he shoplifted, the parents will be held accountable as he is underage. Assault is no different. There are obviously issues at home, but that's THEIR problem, not yours and THEY need to seek professional help.

I would also meet with the Headmaster and if you are not satisfied that he/she is taking appropriate action, get onto DET and file a complaint.

Both my kids have commented that their school is "clean" when it comes to bullying and other anti-social behaviour, which surprised all of us seeing as it's such a big school, nearly 2000 students.

BTW Smartie, just for the record...it is NOT illegal (but not recommended) to smack your children in NSW, don't know about the other states though.

[Eva]

I agree, totally unacceptable! Definitely take it up with the school, they may want the ammunition against the little delinquent themselves! Of course you could always find out who he is and then accidently on purpose trip over him and stamp on him while he's down!! Apologetically of course....

[Goldie]

Just to clear something for those still in SA and read things like this and then get worried about the kids and the schools. It isn't all schools. I have enough friends in other regions of Australia who's kids are happy and content and the parents are thrilled with the schools. It also has a lot to do with where you end up. Some of us on temp or sponsored visas have no choice in the beginning as to where we live and sometimes find that where you end up is not necessarily somewhere you would choose to live in Australia. We know where we want to be and have done our research so that once our PR comes through, we will look for work in that area.

Kayley is fine and will survive her little ordeal. Luckily the punch was in the nose and probably stunned her more than do any damage. She's a bit tender, but there is no bruising. She did say to me this morning that she really misses her old school where she went to school in SA, but I have reassurred her that one more incident like this and we will have to find another school where bullying and bashing (the word they put to the physical bullying in the schools) is not tolerated. When she was hit in the previous school, the child was suspended and I was satisfied with that outcome. I just feel so bad for them cause they already have had to try and adjust to 2 new schools in one year and the fact that we know we will make another move when we get our PR. I went to one primary school and one high school my whole life and can't think of anything worse than having to chop and change schools. But we will do what we have to do if the situation warrants it to ensure they end up somewhere where their school days can be happy ones and where kids are kids.

Thanks so much for the support.

Candice

[Goldie]

I agree, totally unacceptable! Definitely take it up with the school, they may want the ammunition against the little delinquent themselves! Of course you could always find out who he is and then accidently on purpose trip over him and stamp on him while he's down!! Apologetically of course....

Ha ha Eva

I actually told my older daughter this morning to just whisper in the boy's ear that I'm actually very scary and that he'd better leave her sister alone

Teachers half day strike at school today and only a few teachers were available to supervise the kids for the morning. Going back this afternoon.

Candice

[Lyn]

Candice, I hope your little one isnt too affraid to go back to that school. And thanks for telling me what a lock out is. Would not have known.

A few weeks back I asked for any suggestions/comments under the Canberra section about the school where my kids are enrolled and got no responses. Its really so difficult not knowing if we are putting our kids in the right schools. I too am no prude and also have a few extra piercings - but am really worried about my kids schooling - year 8 and 9. My daughter came home on Wednesday to tell me that one of the boys had been told to leave class as he was as high as a kite and back chatting the teacher.

In the cafeteria at recess there are two "goths" who (now how do I say this on the forum ??) should get a bedroom ??

Last year a girl from another school arrived at my kids school with a knife. She was apparently looking for a girl who had stolen her boyfriend !

I too just dont know what to do - can anyone tell me if independent schools are any better - or are alot of teenagers in Australia undiciplined and we just have to pray for the best ?

[eugene roodt]

I have said it time and time again- go private

[candivw]

Hi Candice,

Sorry to hear about your daughters experience, how awful!! I think you get bullys at every school and I think they should be punished by doing chores after school etc if they cannot smack them. You are very controlled, I would have stormed down there and probably let loose on the kid myself! I have noticed that the kids are very badly behaved in oz, everytime I go to the shops there are at least 5 kids having tantrums ( tantys they call them).

I think the oz kids are spoilt and are given loads of freedom as they catch the trains and buses from a young age so their parents dont always know where they are or what they are doing ( these are the bigger ones now). I also admire people who immigrate with kids and teenagers, it is really tough on the kids as they are forced to be with other kids at school for 8 hours a day and the ozzies are different to us, it is hard to fit in for the kids.

[Mara]

Hi Eugene

Your suggestion to go private, is fine, if you can afford it, unfortunately many families cannot do so and have no choice but to send their children to a government school.

Of course, the most affordable private, or so I am lead to believe, are the Catholic schools. I am also told that they do not give religious instruction, so don't let that hold you back. Although, I am sure they must have their fair share of little terrors as well.

I am so grateful that my two sons finished their schooling in SA, still in the days when, if you misbehaved, you were sent to the headmaster and got six of the best! Never harmed either myself or hubby and definitely did nothing to my kids. There is a huge difference between child abuse and a few smacks across their bottom!

[zorba]

I have said it time and time again- go private

And once again I'll say I DISAGREE!!! Not ALL public schools are bad!!!

[Nats123]

Hey Candice, good to have caught up with you this morning.

Good luck!

xxx

[Cindylou]

An Australian colleague was chatting to me the other day about the appalling behaviour of some kids in Aus and she was blaming it on "the culture of the child" - that children may be the most important thing in their OWN parent's lives, but until they are taught that other members of society are equally important, and to respect others, they cannot learn the behaviour required to coexist within society.

Of course, the most affordable private, or so I am lead to believe, are the Catholic schools. I am also told that they do not give religious instruction, so don't let that hold you back.

Not sure what things are like at the Catholic schools in your area, but in Perth the pupils attend church services and have religious instruction. The kids also go through their first Holy Communion, Reconiciliation and Confirmation at the school, so if you are against a Christian education I would caution you about going that route!

[eugene roodt]

Hi Eugene

Your suggestion to go private, is fine, if you can afford it, unfortunately many families cannot do so and have no choice but to send their children to a government school.

Of course, the most affordable private, or so I am lead to believe, are the Catholic schools. I am also told that they do not give religious instruction, so don't let that hold you back. Although, I am sure they must have their fair share of little terrors as well.

I am so grateful that my two sons finished their schooling in SA, still in the days when, if you misbehaved, you were sent to the headmaster and got six of the best! Never harmed either myself or hubby and definitely did nothing to my kids. There is a huge difference between child abuse and a few smacks across their bottom!

Yes and I have said that too- if you can afford it. Catholic isnt always the cheapest private option. Look at other Christian schools as they are more affordable. They also tend to be smaller and therefore you will have less of the bully element there. I have taught in both systems and I will put my kids in a private school unless I really cannot afford it.

[eugene roodt]

And once again I'll say I DISAGREE!!! Not ALL public schools are bad!!!

I totally agree that not all public schools are bad. I just believe private is better.

[LindyM]

Have to agree with Eugene. Especially High school. Have had my 3 kids in all 3 types of schools and was lucky to have big age gaps so could do it.

Lindy

[billabong]

I really think you should "shop around" for public schools. And definatly ask what their policy is with dealing with problem childrend,bullies etc. Then at least you have something to "back you up" once something happens....You know, the "you assured me that...bla bla"....scenario. Lyn, why don't you rock up at some other schools during school hours to see if it looks a bit better?. I'm sure there are not a lot of people who simply can't afford private schools. And believe me, private schools have their own set of problems!! Just my 2c.... And it really isn't pleasant drifting from one school to the next...not healthy I think. Difficult one...

[KarinaPer]

Teachers half day strike at school today and only a few teachers were available to supervise the kids for the morning. Going back this afternoon.

These are serious warning signs that there is major breakdown between staff and the management of the school, and it has spilled over to the kids.

Run Candice Run.

Karina

[Jill]

Hi Candice,

So sorry to hear this has happened to your child again, bullying makes my blood boil. I agree, the blame lies with the parents, far too lax, nothing that a good hiding wouldn't have fixed when we were growing up. I feel sorry for teachers these days, they have no rights, my friend has just started teaching in Australia and you really have nothing to threaten them with, oh detention, oh how terrible.

I have raised two kids, one is now 21, one will be turning 17 on Tuesday, I will proudly say, they are respectful of their elders and have been raised with love and discipline, had smacks when they needed it, boundaries were set and they knew when they crossed them, there was trouble, consistent discipline, we all know raising kids isn't easy, I was 17 when my son was born and it was hard, but I am proud of them.

The lack of discipline in Australian schools and the lack of control, makes me glad this is my daughters last year of school and she got most of her education in South Africa.

In 1985 I went to the UK for a year, went to school there Grade 10, and already then the rot was starting, the lack of discipline, no school uniforms, was something for me then to get used to. Hairstyles however they wanted to wear them and that was one of the reasons I chose not to move to the UK, which would have been easier for me because I was born there, so it was sad to see that Australian youths are heading the same way.

Good luck, thinking of you and your family, I hope you manage to get this issue sorted out at your daughter's school, it would be a shame if you had to move them again for this.

bye for now Jill

[Dax]

Hi Candice

Sorry to hear about your dilemma.

I don’t want to sound partisan, but I note that you are in NSW, and please don’t get this the wrong way, but you live in the worst governed state in Australia (according to developed, 1st World standards) and the bad management includes the NSW State Education System.

What I want to highlight, is to demonstrate that the problems that you mentioned do exist in Oz, but the difference is how they are managed from region to region or between the states. I want to give you and others a glimmer of hope, should your kids ever end up in the South Oz Education System.

South Australia, where I teach, is a light year or two ahead of NSW in most matter educational. If the same incident occurred in the school where I teach the following would have happened:

* You would have been contacted by either phone or letter, informing you of the incident, and the consequences to the aggressor, and how your kid was supported.

* You would have been invited to a face to face meeting with the Principal to discuss the matter further if you wanted to.

* Physical violence is grounds for instant suspension anywhere in South Oz.

* Repeat offences may incur exclusion (temporary enrollment at a behaviour centre for up to 10 weeks), or an alternative programme in the school where the child follows a programme with minimal contact with other kids.

* We have a system of “bullying audits†(kids identity bullies confidentially without fear of retaliation) in order to identify bullies early and to nip them in the bud.

It was hard work to develop our school to the standard where we are now, and we still “have some momentsâ€, but random and daily school-yard violence is the exception at my school. we are a lot of tough, no-nonsense teachers at that school, and the “liberal-softie†approach is not really in our paradigms.

We have some “charactersâ€, make no mistake, but their parents for the most part know better that to rescue their little darlings when they have screwed up. Some take their kids out and enroll them elsewhere, only to find the same system and expectations there.

I’m not trying to paint South Australia as an Utopia in this regard. The difference is that we at least tackle these problems head-on and try to make a difference.

I hope things will work out for your child, no kid deserves to be bullied in such a way. If things does not improve, PM me and I’ll speak to our Schools’ Cousellor, maybe she will have some specific advice or ideas.

Cheers,

Dax

[bluebonnet]

Hi when I read your story I was very shocked, and worried. But when I thought about it, I have been to the headmaster complaining at my daughters private school as a 7 year old boy had kicked her in the stomach and legs on a few occasions. My daughter is 8. She has been called retard. So it seems to happen in South Africa as well, and I think it does stem from the parents but if there is good policys at the school then they can prevent it reoccuring.

When I complained was told my child was sensitive and should go to a physcologist. Seems bullies rule.

If I were you, I would find another private school the same day. The headmaster is the one with the biggest problem.