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My reasons for leaving South Africa


Emille

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Some of the reasons why I am going

First of all I have to say 3 basic things: no 1: it’s a private choice for me to decide to emigrate, and it’s a private choice for you to choose to stay. We all need to make our own choices, we all have our own circumstances, our own destinies and our own personalities. No 2: nobody leaves this country, and especially this city, because they don’t love it, or because it’s not beautiful, or because it does not have advantages/positives. In fact it’s a very traumatic and sad thing to do- because you never get rid of your longing for the country and your loved ones until you die. No 3: I don’t criticize people for staying and I expect them not to criticize or even argue me for going. At the end those going will have to live with the consequences, and those staying have to live with the consequences.

That said, I can only share my point of view and my reasons, as I said it’s a personal issue:

The issues in this country are not just crime or hatred it is complex. Everybody ask me ‘why are we emigrating’ and it is exactly my answer every time: “it’s not just because of one reason but a whole lot of reasonsâ€. I will mention a few:

1) Safety: I want to live in a country where I don’t have to live in fear for my or my family’s safety. The facts of this country are the facts of this country- it IS one of the 3 most violent countries in the world, and that cannot be argued away. The question is do you want to expose your family to that risk or don’t you. Every day 5 people are murdered in Cape Town and that is 5 too many. In fact, more people are murdered in South Africa than in any other country that is not in a war. Every 13 seconds a woman is raped in this country. Just because it hasn’t happened to you does not mean that it cannot happen to you. And no, poverty is not the reason- many many countries are far poorer (African countries, India, Brazil etc) and yet their crimes are not as violent.

I for one don’t want to expose myself, my wife and my child to that risk. I have spend over R60 000 securing my house but at the end that does not guarantee anything. The psychological and mental effect on people from seeing and hearing about murder and rape every day and the fear of crime are substantial but this cannot be measured. The government is incapable of sorting this out. Due to affirmative action, they have lost so many competent investigators that it’s a sad state of affairs.

2) Financially: financially we are getting poorer and poorer in this country. This year, our salary increase is lower than inflation, which means I am effectively worse off than a year ago. This, coupled with increased food prices, and increased petrol prices, and high interest rates, we are becoming poorer and poorer. The Rand is getting progressively weaker and weaker over time (it lost 40% to the Dollar some time ago)- in 1999 the Rand to the Pound was R8=Pound1, now it’s R15. This means that I am effectively 50% poorer (therefore although that oil prices and food prices are world wide issues, the impact on us here is so much more because our Rand is weak). Again, the government is incapable of doing something about it- they still tax petrol prices very highly and refuses to let go on this. In fact, our petrol is exported to neighbouring countries that often pays less for it than what we pay here.

3) Career: I will be in this post for the next 25 years until I retire. There is nowhere to move to- I am not interested in working anywhere else in South Africa and there are no alternatives in Cape Town. As a white male my changes of opening a private firm is zero as in policy/strategy I will never be employed by local governments, provincial governments etc due to my skin colour. Staying here to ‘contribute to the country’ sounds nice and is well meaning, but in practice it does not work like that, not for me it doesn’t. I came back from London as a highly sought-after planner in London, and thought (naively) that I will be able to make a substantial contribution here and implement/advise South Africans on the most progressive solutions to urban issues. I have not been given the opportunity to do this, in part due to my skin colour.

4) Discrimination/racism: Fact is racism is racism, sexism is sexism- whether it’s a woman being sexist against a male, or vice versa, whether it’s a black person against a white person or vice versa. But not here: Its now 15 years after Apartheid, but still any criticism of the government, or in fact of any black person, is that the race card is thrown at you. Affirmative action is still in place, and in fact its implemented incorrectly (the intention by law is that if 2 people are exactly the same ito experience and qualifications, and the one is white and the other one black, then the black should get the job). It’s been used as an excuse to discriminate against white people and against males and that is immoral; and to promote black people and women ahead of white males. The idea is to have a non-racial society and a level-playing field- when is this going to happen? If any country should actively pursue non-racialism it should be this country, but no discrimination is built into legislation. The result? Things like the energy crises (which now affects the poor because the economy is not growing as much as it would without the energy crises- direct result of affirmative action – white males with skills were fired and given packages in groves since 1994. And double standards: I mean we have organisations like Black Sash, Black Management Forum, Black Farmers Association, Black Journalist Forum etc.- yet can you imagine the outcry if you had White Sash, White Management Forum, White Farmers Association, White Journalist Forum? And so-called ‘black empowerment’ is a farce and no empowerment at all- only very few of Mbeki’s friends are getting rich to the expense of the poor. I want to be in a country where my son will have all the opportunities he can get and where he can compete on an equal footing to others of his age.

5) Wastage of money and plain incompetence: we all know the issues that need to be addressed, and yet, money is spent on things like name chances, on expensive flights and luxury hotel stays for ministers etc. ESCOM bosses should’ve been fired due to incompetence, but no, the CEO still get his 11 MILLION Rand a year. And all the executives get their bonuses. I don’t want to even think about the billions that are being wasted and stolen in this country.

6) Injustice / international relations: I don’t know if you follow the news, but South Africa ALWAYS, without exception, vote against proposals that will enforce rules on dictators etc. Examples of this is Burma, Zimbabwe, Russia’s invasion in Georgia, Iran etc. etc. too many to mention. But surely due to our history we should be champions against injustice everywhere? But no, the rule that applies here- as long as the person is not your ally, he cannot do anything wrong. Zimbabwe Zimbabwe- that’s another 15 pages and SA could if it stood up for justice sorted this problem out long before it got out of hand, but no, ZanoPF has always been an ally to the ANC and thus whatever they do cannot be wrong. Not to talk about domestic affairs- our health minister, an alcoholic, basically stole a liver from somebody that needed it more, and she continues to drink, there is absolute no justice and she still sits in her post, why? Because she’s an ally of Mbeki. I want to be part of a country which stands up for justice.

I can mention many other reasons/examples but it will end up being a book. Maybe other people can see this injustice and it does not affect them, but I cannot, it goes against my grain. I cannot longer be confronted by this every living day of my life and expose my son to it in the future, I am very very sorry. This does not include all the advantages and opportunities in Australia, but that’s a whole other topic on its own.

E

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Dear all

Thank you SO MUCH for all your views and contributions, its been very informative and interesting.

All the best to all of you.

Emille

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I was one of the people that said I would NEVER leave South Africa "sak en pak" to go an live somewhere else. I would miss my parents and family too much etc etc. BUT.....it's amazing how your views change once you have children..... Unfortunately my view of my children's (or any child in SA) future is that if you are not sitting on a hell of a lot of money, know someone or not in any way previously disadvantaged (and I believe that even then you should know someone...) they will not get ANYWHERE in this country after they leave school.....OR by the time they leave school in 20what ever having a matric certificate from sunny SA will mean absolutely nothing to the rest of the world because of the standard of education bla bla. I can go on....but I don't have the strenght....what a let down. Only way out I see is to go and to go now. And it breaks my hart...

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THE ARGUS- 16 SEPT - AFFIRMATIVE ACTION HERE TO STAY

By Angela Quintal and Murray Williams

ANC resident Jacob Zuma has declined to pander to minority concerns about affirmative action, saying no sunset clause is on the cards.

"We have not reached a stage when we should say affirmative action is on the way out," he told members of Johannesburg's Hellenic, Italian and Portuguese community, which had raised the issue.

Organisers of the gathering on Monday night had told Zuma that young white graduates in the audience had submitted questions about their future in the country in the light of affirmative action.

'We'll have to see what he does... when the talking's over'

Earlier Zuma had quoted extensively from the Freedom Charter to try to allay minority concerns, saying that South Africa belonged "to all of us, black and white".

Dialogue was necessary on the issue of affirmative action, so that white South Africans could understand what underpinned the need for such a policy.

Zuma said only a "tiny group" of black South Africans had succeeded economically, with the majority of the country's people "still in trouble".

It was for this reason that he was unable to put a date on when the policy would end, as urged by proponents of a so-called sunset clause.

Last month, the ANC appeared to open the door to a debate on whether such a clause should be introduced, after Zuma's deputy in the ANC, Kgalema Motlanthe, was reported as saying that the government would consider phasing out the job equity programme.

Motlanthe, now Minister in the Presidency, qualified his statement by saying a phasing-out date could be considered only for certain aspects of the policy, Business Report said at the time.

He made the announcement at a Stellenbosch meeting with Afrikaner businessmen and farmers.

Zuma's views were supported by Cosatu on Tuesday morning.

"We think affirmative action and BEE are definitely necessary for the foreseeable future. Senior positions in the private sector are largely unchanged - although it's been much better in the public sector," spokesperson Patrick Craven said.

But his counterpart in the Western Cape, Tony Ehrenreich, said he believed there should be an end to affirmative action benefiting blacks in particular.

"Sure, there should be an end to it once the labour market reflects the broader society and the opportunities are equalised, then there's no need.

"And it's not only about jobs, but about access to schools, secondary and tertiary education."

But Ehrenreich said affirmative action itself should never end, because there would always be sectors of society which needed the process.

He added: "There are strong feelings about reverse racism. There will always be the losers, but the losers will always have to look at it from the (point of view of) interests of the whole society."

Freedom Front Plus spokesperson Pieter Mulder said of Zuma's latest remarks: "It seems like he's trying to please everyone. We'll have to see what he does when he's in power - when the talking's over.

"The reality is that affirmative action is not achieving its goals and is having a lot of unintended consequences - like polarisation between white and black citizens, especially among young people.

"Another one is that our top youth are leaving the country because they see no hope.

"And, third, affirmative action is benefiting a very small number of people who are constantly job-hopping - and not the broader population," he said.

Zuma also addressed the issue of crime and violence.

After coming under fire recently over his suggestion that a debate on the death penalty could be considered, he changed tack last night.

Zuma acknowledged that there were those who believed that respect for human rights was an obstacle to proper law enforcement, but said he did not support this view.

But he insisted that the legal system should "bite" as, he said, this was the only language that criminals understood.

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While all the various issues discussed all have merit to one degree or another and many will weigh the issues differently, we see it slightly differently...

It's going to be a huge adventure. With our first little one on the way, what better way to launch our new lives as a family than with a new adventure!!

We do not try justify to ourselves any more than that as to why we are leaving....

Edited by SimonB
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I was talking to my factory workers on Friday, saying how well they work as a team and that they should stay at the factory and keep the team together balh blah blah, at which point one of the workers said that they liked working for me and jokingly said I must'nt leave for Australia or anything like that! Mentioning how their previuos employer left for Aus and they lost their jobs. (Well we leave for Aus on the 3rd of Jan) What do you tell them? they fear that by me leaving thay may lose their jobs! (It wont happen). These people are'nt my friends or family, they rely on me for their salaries.

I must say I feel badly for them, and I'm sure there are hundreds of other employers leaving and their staff must be just as worried. Not all blacks in this land want us to go, even though somedays it feels like it. No alot of Blacks are very concerned about us leaving, and you cant go tell them that your leaving for AA, your already thier boss. You cant say economics! you drive a car and they walk. They dont want to hear about crime, the townships have it worse in most cases. And dont even compare the education your kids get compared to theirs! Its defenately not an easy thing to say to them.

Off course I'll leave one day and they'll find out why, but they will still have their jobs and life will go on. But when compared to facing minimum wage workers giving you thier all everyday, depending on you for money for their kids, and just hoping to have a job next year, telling a few friends your going is a piece of cake!

Two weeks ago I had to say good bye to my grade 11 and 12s.

I taught about 300 Alex kids English in JHB. I must say trying to explain why we were leaving when for so long I had espoused the good in SA and the reason why they should not give up was very hard. I shared their terror during the Xenophobic attacks and heard daily their stories about how they were not sleeping and how they were being victimized by taxi drivers on their why to school.

In the end they understood that Aus offered a better future for a teacher - money talks :unsure: most of them were happy for us and wished that they could just as easily leave one day.

For me this is the saddest thing. It really is not a black vs white thing. Too many people (all races) are still hugely affected by the spill over from apartheid - poverty, violent crime, aa, bee - and too few can start over in a better place. We are the lucky ones :ilikeit:

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Hi SimonB- you have the right attitude. I find it difficult though at this stage to only focus on the ‘adventure’ part- which it will definitely be. Its just that I am now so overwhelmed by the ‘push’-factors that the ‘pull’’ factors of Australia is less dominant. I think once you are in Australia, the push factors of SA become less dominant and the pull factors of Australia more dominant. I think with your attitude you probably will adapt more easily- I suppose it’s a personality thing- personally I have to visualise the reasons for my move to me first so that I can accept it, deal with it and move on. Also it helps me once I feel homesick in Aus (it’s a matter of when not if) then I can look at these reasons again and remember why we moved. When we lived in the UK I found that one easily forgets the negatives of SA and then you feel much more homesick as you start to build this ‘ideal/dreamworld’ around SA, which is not realistic. Thanks for your input and I wish you all the best in your move- one thing is sure, it WILL be an adventure! Once I am on that plane I will not justify myself anymore and I will also not 'bitch' about SA in Australia-

KirstyP - thanks for your input. Yes it must have been hard to tell the kids. We should always remember that there are many decent ordinary people in this country- of all races. Somebody said it so nice on this forum- 'on my way to work every morning I want to salute those blue colour workers who go to work for little money and do not give themselves over to crime'. All the best in your move- as you say we are the lucky ones...

E

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Thanks Emille! I have to claen the hubby's golf clubs now now. Not in the mood. Will keep you all posted about the pending migration ;)

PS you write beautifully, is it your trade?

Edited by KirstyP
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Thanks Emille! I have to claen the hubby's golf clubs now now. Not in the mood. Will keep you all posted about the pending migration ;)

........do you clean golf clubs ? will you marry me ?

PS you write beautifully, is it your trade?

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Hi Emille,

You could not have put things more into perspective and you have put my thoughts into words by what you wrote!

It is so true what u say, my very first priorty is my family and two sons, their safety is of the utmost importance to me and as a whites in this country we have no hope of ever getting away from our forefathers "aparthied" doings...

Have you already put your application in?

I am just trying to get as much info from friends who have immigrated there already, as to whether the cost of living really that much higher... jobs is another worry but like I mentioned we want to do it for our kids.

Goodluck to u and your family.

Andrea

:ilikeit:

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Hi Andrea

I see you are from East London. I lived there Dec 1995 to April 1999.

Thanks, yes I thought I wanted to put on paper exactly why I want to move, because there's all these emotions and things that bug me, but once you have written it down its clearer to see whats going on in your mind! Also I need the evidence once I am in Aus and miss home and start to wonder 'why did we move'!!

Yes not everybody will be affected by crime, but one incident is enough to destroy your life, and I dont want to risk that chance. My little one is now 15 months and frankly its my first duty to keep him safe, which I think I will be doing by moving to Aus.

You are right, I cannot see how we will ever get away from being blamed by the 'sins of our fathers'. Africa is still blaming colonialism for its problems- for the past 300 years. I mean move on- the United States was a colony, did it stop them from ourperforming themselves, Singapore and Hong Kong were colonies, did they blame colonialism- no they decided the past is the past and we have to make a success from what we have ourselves. So if they are still blaming colonialism, you can be sure it will be another 300 years and Apartheid will still be blamed. Apartheid was a disgrace, but the fact that we as whites are in South Africa is the best thing that could have happended to this country- otherwise this place would have been the same as the rest of Africa.

I was blessed by getting a job, and the employer sponsored me for a 457 visa. So we will be flying out 27 October. After 3 month's probation they will be sponsoring me for permanent residency.

As far as I know cost of living is higher- but you dont have that 'keeping up with the Jones's mentality' that we have in South Africa. There's a big middle class and small upper/lower class. Jobs depend obviously on what you do.

You can read another post of mine about my experience/ideas regarding the 457 and emigration in general:

http://www.saaustralia.org/index.php?showtopic=17714

Take care and let me know if you have any questions.

Emille

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Hi Emille ,

Well done on your post ,it is more or less what I tell freinds , my experience has been................that some get it........... ...others never will...or maybe they will when it is too late?Frog in the pot syndrome.

All the best

D.

xx

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Thanks for the input I will definatley be investigating our options.

My second son is 14 months going on to 15 and my eldest is 6 years - so yes we also want to do the right thing regarding safety...

Main problem though is trying to find employment as we both work in the hospitality (casino) industry...

Good luck and hope u all get there safely!

Cheers

Andrea

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Andrea

Australia is VERY big on casinos. I've read that its the country where the most people per capita gamble on a regular basis.

Regards

Emille

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Hi Emille.

Goeie skrywe. Ek het vandag bietjie home sick gevoel maar na ek hierdie post van jou gelees het, het ek net weer besef, hoe gelukkig ek

is om al hier in Australia te kan wees.

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Hi Everyone,

I really enjoy reading these forums, especially when the topics are so controversial and we are all personally affected by ALL these issues one way or another.

Looking through most of the discussions I notice that most people leave SA because of the crime and don't seem to mention other types of problems we have...unlike this topic...but still...I would like to write about my troubles here in SA as a 22 year old-white-female!

I went to a private school and did incredibly well in Matric. I started studying Architectural Draughting at a college I will not mention. During my time at this college I endured some serious verbal abuse from a black lecturer about the quality of my work, he also conducted the lectures in his chosen african language on some occassions and would discuss issues with the other black students in their african languages. To cut a long story short the mentioned lecturer failed me as well as the three other white students in the class and our black classmates passed with glowing reviews and distinctions. Although us white students said nothing and endured the abuse, 2 out of the three dropped out of the course, I steadied on and managed to get my work remarked by the head of the department...I passed (with good marks) SURPRISINGLY :ilikeit: ! But I was disappointed that this lecturer was never called out on his "mistakes and misconduct". This is another issue that the whole of SA suffers with: No one takes responsibilty for their actions! Everrr....are they afraid or what?

So anyways, after graduating I applied for many jobs in the Architectural/ Construction Industry...I was called to a few interviews and upon arriving at the companies was casually told: "OH sorry, this is an affirmative action position." They didn't even bother interviewing me...at the time I was not actually aware of what BEE and AA prcedures were, I was more annoyed that they wasted my time because, from my name it is obvious I am not black. I eventually got a job through a friend's dad (it's not what you know it's who you know hey?!)

That was three years ago! I am still at the same company and now studying through UNISA...another money wasting mistake. Everytime I call for assistance I can hardly understand the person on the other end of the line, I never get anywhere with my queries and I basically have to teach everyone else how to do their job (at 22 I feel like I am complaining like an 80 year old?! (No offence to 80 year olds). In my job I am required to make orders etc. and am constantly questioning if the people taking the orders even know what they are selling as they are asking ME for the product barcodes and prices?!? Is this for real? Were these individuals really better than me and more deserving of the job than I was?!

What about when you go to department stores/any shops and have to...heaven forbid...go to the help desk...When I step up to the desk I am greeted by a mumble..and if looks could kill..I would not be around to tell my story. I feel like an idiot if I have to scrounge through my bag to find my cash card or the old receipt etc. I am made to feel like I am wasting HER time!

So last year I decided that this is not how I want to be treated nor do I want to have to worry about which jobs I am allowed to apply for and which ones I am not...at 22 I had nothing to do with Apartheid nor did I actively "take part" in re-inforcing it or whatever, yet I am the one suffering the worst! It has now taken me two years to apply for a student visa for Oz and I am waiting for it to be granted! I have never been to Oz but I don't really mind...I am going to Feel the FEAR do it anyway, and make a life for myself in Oz where I will feel like I belong!

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Good for you kthompson, with an attitude like that you are sure to make it! :ilikeit: :ilikeit:

Hope you get your visa soon. My Goddaughter's boyfriend (from Zambia) is in Aus on a student visa, PM me if you want to get in touch with him and I pass along details.

Eva

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Hi Kthompson

Great post. I admire your courage and for taking the decision – with an attitude like that you will definitely make it in OZ! Whats sad is that there is soooo many people with similar stories. Affirmative action really is a disgrace- like apartheid- nothing more or nothing less. There are very few things that infuriates me more than affirmative action, because its legalized discrimination against people who do not deserve it – you must pay for the so-called ‘sin of your fathers’. What makes it more significant is that it happens against the background of (1) people enforcing it that have been discriminating against in the past (they should know better) and (2) a constitution that says that we are supposedly all equal and that there is ‘no discrimination against race, language bla bla bla. (our so-called constitution is not worth the paper its written on). It would be interesting to know how many people would’ve stayed here if it wasn’t for affirmative action. I have a suspicion the biggest racists in this country are in fact black - you only have to look at the violent nature of house robberies of white homes in Johannesburg/Pta.

All the best for your future plans!

Emille

Edited by Emille
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Hello Sheila2Oz

Dankie. Ja jy is gelukkig. Die hoofrede hoekom ek die post hier gesit het is omdat ek juis weet mens vergeet so maklik die negatiewe van SA as mens oorsee woon, en dan bou mens ''n droomwereld om SA' wat basies onrealisties is. Toe ek in Londen gewoon het vir 3 jaar is dit presies wat met my gebeur het, ons het teruggetrek SA toe, en kyk, 3 jaar later is ons alweer oppad...

Groete

Emille

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Well said Kthompson & emille

I have personally never been the victim of serious crime, had a handbag stolen and my daughters cellphone. But I too feel I cannot live in this country anymore.

I am just sick and tired of poor service of arrogance and the general disregard for life and just about everything else.

I spent 2 hours at the post office yesterday to get my IELTS results, the only reason i stood there for so long was because it was the IELTS results.

I phoned the track and trace number beforehand and was told exactly where the letter was only to have to wait in the queue for 15min. and the rest of the time in front of the counter first in line but nowhere near to being helped.

I am sick and tired of having to accept that taxis will cut in front of me in traffic, endangering my life and not being able to rely on the police/ traffic cops/ GOVERNMENT to do anything about it.

I am sick and tired of the fact that in South Africa the way to deal with a problem is to put up a sign:

"Danger Hijacking hotspot"

"Danger smash and grab hotspot"

"Danger Potholes" ....

Scuze my french but that is BULLSHIT. Whatever happened to deal with it, our government and the people who work for them don't give a rat's ass about service, contrary to what is written on every governmental departments wall!

It is no better in the private sector where business owners are stuck in a "damned if I do, damned if I don't " situation, you have to employ PDI's but please don't expect them to be productive or do the work as intended.

Here in Pburg the building of the stadium halts every so often because the workers demand higher pay and outrageous stuff like R4000 bonus per month per employee or else......

It is this general shortsightedness that steams me up, you want more money but you are not even prepared to do the work required for your basic salary? and they don't even realise that the only people they are harming are themselves. If the stadium isn't finished in time the whole town will suffer for it but no....

My children are being taught the biggest load of crap in school , and I can do nothing about it! My 12 year old son, spent 3 hours in the sun a couple of weeks ago "protesting" as part of an assignment on gender equality. I have no problem with teaching gender equality or racial equality idiot equality or any type of equality, but the underlying message that the children learn is to take up placards and "demand" when there are more civilised and intelligent ways to get things done.

My other son had to prepare an assignment on the different ways in which to get a divorce?! I am forced to say at this point WTF?

And there I've gone and ranted like a looney! :ph34r::ilikeit::ilikeit: I don't care what other people think about immigration anymore, I am fed up and choose not to live like this anymore

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Well said Kthompson & emille

I have personally never been the victim of serious crime, had a handbag stolen and my daughters cellphone. But I too feel I cannot live in this country anymore.

I am just sick and tired of poor service of arrogance and the general disregard for life and just about everything else.

I spent 2 hours at the post office yesterday to get my IELTS results, the only reason i stood there for so long was because it was the IELTS results.

I phoned the track and trace number beforehand and was told exactly where the letter was only to have to wait in the queue for 15min. and the rest of the time in front of the counter first in line but nowhere near to being helped.

I am sick and tired of having to accept that taxis will cut in front of me in traffic, endangering my life and not being able to rely on the police/ traffic cops/ GOVERNMENT to do anything about it.

I am sick and tired of the fact that in South Africa the way to deal with a problem is to put up a sign:

"Danger Hijacking hotspot"

"Danger smash and grab hotspot"

"Danger Potholes" ....

Scuze my french but that is BULLSHIT. Whatever happened to deal with it, our government and the people who work for them don't give a rat's ass about service, contrary to what is written on every governmental departments wall!

It is no better in the private sector where business owners are stuck in a "damned if I do, damned if I don't " situation, you have to employ PDI's but please don't expect them to be productive or do the work as intended.

Here in Pburg the building of the stadium halts every so often because the workers demand higher pay and outrageous stuff like R4000 bonus per month per employee or else......

It is this general shortsightedness that steams me up, you want more money but you are not even prepared to do the work required for your basic salary? and they don't even realise that the only people they are harming are themselves. If the stadium isn't finished in time the whole town will suffer for it but no....

My children are being taught the biggest load of crap in school , and I can do nothing about it! My 12 year old son, spent 3 hours in the sun a couple of weeks ago "protesting" as part of an assignment on gender equality. I have no problem with teaching gender equality or racial equality idiot equality or any type of equality, but the underlying message that the children learn is to take up placards and "demand" when there are more civilised and intelligent ways to get things done.

My other son had to prepare an assignment on the different ways in which to get a divorce?! I am forced to say at this point WTF?

And there I've gone and ranted like a looney! :ph34r::ilikeit::ilikeit: I don't care what other people think about immigration anymore, I am fed up and choose not to live like this anymore

Classic !

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