Congratulations!!

[Jurg]

Hi Guys!!

Have to congratulate you on a great Web-site. Interresting, fun and informative! Not a lot of that going around now-a-days.

I realise that this is a site for people who are either on their way somewhere (most probably Cangaroo valley), or at least planning on emigrating. Still, there are a few of us who, for what-ever reason, have or want to stay in SA, but have access to this site.

Jurg, what are you getting at? Maak jou punt of "shut-up. "Eish"

Well, if I can make a suggestion: Why not keep this site the positive site it was meant to be? I trust and believe that the intention, of this site, was to provide people, who are planning on exchanging SA for a "better" life in Australia, with information on how to get by before boarding the plane in SA and after leaving the plane at an airport in Australia. Now, that's what I call positive. Why would anybody want to sour their day with negative information from another country? Worse, think about the people who are still here. They are living it, every day, and might just want to escape it, even if just by visiting this web-site and what do they find.....negativity.

Come-on! You've got a good thing going here. Don't spoil it with things no-one wants to hear about anyway.

Never let your head hang down. Never give up and sit down and grieve. Find another way. And don't pray when it rains if you don't pray when the sun shines."

Leroy "Satchel" Paige

Enjoy

Edited May 18, 2006 by Jurg

[Janine]

Well said, Jurg! I couldn't agree with you more!!

The negative undertone of this site in recent times has really started to get me down.

We need more positive people like you around, but unfortunately they seem to get chased away and then quietly disappear.

Janine.

[Hendie]

Thank you for the vote of confidence Jurg. It is certainly our intention that the forum should be an objective, preferably positive place where folks can come to gain knowledge about the immigration process to Australia. For the most part I would venture to say that we are achieving that. Even your own opening line attests to that:

Have to congratulate you on a great Web-site. Interresting, fun and informative! Not a lot of that going around now-a-days.

What you have to realise though is that a forum of this nature owes its content to its membership - not some control body that dictates what gets posted and what not (within reason of course, and I will not go into the whole moderation debate here!). The result is that you will see a cross-section of content that is representative of the forum population. So what makes up this population? Well, this is a site for South Africans wanting to move to Australia ... so you can hardly expect to find posts here about how to "make" it in the new South Africa. Folks who come here have pretty much exhausted that possibility (for them at least). People knocking on our door here are for the most part fed-up with living conditions in South Africa, they have experienced crime in their lives (or have close family or friends who have), and they are often down on their luck on the employment front as well. Certainly the sort of person who could benefit from a positive, helpful attitude, right? Well, that is what we strive to do, by employing a sympathetic, and concerned host team who volunteer their time to "pay it forward" and help others make the move across to Australia. You will find pictorials of what life is like in Australia, helpful articles about a wide range of topics, from where to find Mrs. Ball's Chutney to which schools to put your kids in.

I disagree with Janine that we "chase away" folks with a positive attitude. But what I do caution people who want to sing South Africa's praises, is not to go overboard doing it here. That's what sites like TheHomeComingRevolution is all about.

The Internet allows for specialization, and ours is for South Africans immigrating to Australia!

Enjoy!

Hendie

[Rialet]

Thanks Hendie - well said!!!!! I draw a tremendous amount of info etc from this site. We chat about postings made everyday in our family and it is wonderful to be able to assist others that are in the process of making this big move to - makes you feel that you were able to contribute in making a difference in someone else's life - no matter how small!!!

I have made a few very good virtual friends here and enjoy the interaction with fellow SAners whether they here or still in SA.

Cheers

Rialet

[Danie]

That was well said Hendie!

There is a tremendous amount of info on this site, and I have found it extremely helpful.

The only negative thing for me… I have found it after I have arrived in Aus…

To be honest I am not the most active member, but a vivid reader and visit the site a couple of time per day, just to see what the ‘older’ folks are getting up to as well as the concerns/issues of the ‘newbies’!

To all fellow members – thanks for sharing your experiences with us, we all are grateful!

Danie

[Queensland Girl]

Hendie.-You wrote exactly what I would not have been able to put into words.

Thank You

[Janine]

But what I do caution people who want to sing South Africa's praises, is not to go overboard doing it here.

What a load of BS!!!! Why can't I be positive about my country of birth? Why do I have to be negative about South Africa just because I'm emigrating? It's because of comments like these that you've just made, Hendie, and because of this mentality, that I will NEVER mingle with or even want to be associated with expats / immigrants / whatever you'd like to be called!

And by the way, we're not singing South Africa's praises, we're actually just defending it against all the negative and sometimes unfair or even untrue remarks being made on this website!

We need more positive people like you around, but unfortunately they seem to get chased away and then quietly disappear.

Thanks everyone (escpecially Hendie) for all your replies on Jurg's post - you've actually just proven my point!

Janine.

Edited May 20, 2006 by Janine

[Cindylou]

OK, so I decided I wouldn't get involved in this one, but it has really bothered me, so, against my better judgement here goes:

I am negative about this country, otherwise I would not be leaving SA. I can't share my negative feelings at work, as I do not feel that would be professional. I can't share my negative feelings with my family in Aus, as they are already incredibly concerned about us here and I don't like to add to that. I can't discuss it much with my friends and family in SA as they don't like to think about us leaving. So this forum is a place where I can vent, laugh, indulge myself and I will not apologise or feel guilty for that. I come here to bleat, giggle, learn, cry and give and receive advice. One of the greatest things about this forum is the diversity of members and therefore the diversity of opinions expressed and experiences shared. I feel that each of us ought to allow one another freedom of expression and to respect each other's opinions (something I have stated before). However, for anyone to ask me to ignore the negatives about this country, the country of my birth that I am choosing to leave forever, no, sorry, I cant and won't do it.

Cindylou

PS - and yes, Jurg, I do think we have a great website! Thanx

[Ajay]

Janine,

I really fail to see why you insist on visiting this site if it irks you so much! You have hardly had a good word to say about it - I just don;t understand why you put yourself through the pain and frustration of reading stuff that makes you want to box with everyone.

If, as you say, you are determined that you will "NEVER mingle with or even want to be associated with expats" because of our so-called mentality, then I need to point out that you are going about it in a very strange way by returning here time and again. Do you have an ulterior motive?

This isn't the first time that you have attacked the well meaning folk here that are just trying to provide some advice and assistance to those facing a big, life changing decision - why don't you go find something real and tangible to complain about and leave us alone. Surely there are worse things than a bunch of South Africans looking out for each other in a strange continent?

[Guest Seoul Sister]

Why not keep this site the positive site it was meant to be?

Why would anybody want to sour their day with negative information from another country? Worse, think about the people who are still here. They are living it, every day, and might just want to escape it, even if just by visiting this web-site and what do they find.....negativity.

Don't spoil it with things no-one wants to hear about anyway.

Hi Jurg,

As highlighted above you mentioned negativity a few times, could you please be a bit more specific in what it is that you are talking about ? As I am not sure what you mean. Thanks. Have to agree with you - this is a great forum !!

It's because of comments like these that you've just made, Hendie, and because of this expat mentality, that I will NEVER mingle with or even want to be associated with expats!

Janine,

As one of the only expats on this forum, I feel it is my duty to protect the immigrants on this forum, by enlightening you with regard to the difference between the two :

The difference between an expatriate (expat) and an immigrant is that immigrants commit themselves to becoming a part of their country of residence, whereas expatriates see themselves, and are perceived, as living in a foreign land. The term expat is often used in the context of Westerners living in non-Western countries, in countries like Saudi Arabia, expatriates are required to live in segregated compounds, meaning that integration into their host country's society is not an option.

Expats often travel to many different locations, worldwide, working on contracts of usually 3-4 years while gaining substantial financial benefits for the discomfort of regular displacement. Please don't ever accuse ppl on this forum of being expats again, unless you are sure of the intentions with which they have moved to their new country of residence. I doubt whether you will ever have the opportunity to mingle or associate with expats, don't even worry about it !

I find it sad that you as a South African tingling with enthusiasm for your country, create such a negative impression by the way you approach issues on this forum.

Expat greetings from the Far East

Seoul Sister

[DesertDaisy]

We are and always will be proudly South African. And yet currently we are living an expat lifestyle in the Middle East and are trying to immigrate to Australia.

I am unfailingly positive about South Africa's future, and try hard to focus on the positive. I don't believe in SA bashing at all.

So then, why are we leaving SA? Because although I foresee a great future for the country, I don't necessarily see a great future for my family in SA. My dh is in a specialised field, and currently SA does not have the resources to make the most use of his skills.

And my kids are still small, and while I believe there may be a future for them in SA, the current education system is in crisis, and I want to ensure they have the best possible education that we can afford. We cannot afford private education in SA, and govt is just too hit and miss.

So while I believe (and will remain positive about) South Africa, I am equally positive about our future in Australia.

[Rialet]

Hi Janine

Must agree with Ajay - why do you torture yourself by visiting this forum - you obviously do not agree with most of what is said and do not want to be identified with the rest of us anyway????!!!!

I think all the participants and members are great (most of the others think so too) and we all contributed in some or oher way to bring the forum where it is - A GREAT PLACE TO COMMUNICATE AND GET INFO!!!!

[Jurg]

Hi All,

Hell, I didn't think my comment would draw such a lot of response.....I'm impressed.

Have a great one!

Enjoy

[Hendie]

Why can't I be positive about my country of birth? Why do I have to be negative about South Africa just because I'm emigrating?

Ai Janine, you do seem to have a lot of pent up anger, and I do have to ask myself (like others here have too) why you punish yourself by coming here and be angered all over again. For your information, most South Africans I have come into contact with would return to South Africa at the drop of a hat if they had guarantees that life would be "normal" again. We all love South Africa! You seem to have missed the whole point of my reply to Jurg; note, I said "not to go overboard". That does not mean we discourage folks to talk about the good things in South Africa, goodness I LOVE to hear good news from South Africa! What I do have a problem with is folks coming here and trying to convince others that everything is great in South Africa. It is not! If it were, the stream of people leaving would dwindle and die, and you would see people returning in increasing numbers. That is simply not the case, the growth in membership on all three of our forums attest to that!

It's because of comments like these that you've just made, Hendie, and because of this expat mentality, that I will NEVER mingle with or even want to be associated with expats!

Actually Janine, you are in luck ... you will probably be one of a very few "expats" in Australia, most of us have immigrated to the countries we are now in, and will be getting on with our lives, and not continue in anger at the circumstances that drove us here in the first place!

So please direct your anger to where it is due!

Hendie

[Janine]

OK, Seoul Sister and Hendie, seeing as you’d rather concentrate on semantics rather than on the real issues being discussed in this thread, let me set the record straight:

Actually Janine, you are in luck ... you will probably be one of a very few "expats" in Australia, most of us have immigrated to the countries we are now in, and will be getting on with our lives, and not continue in anger at the circumstances that drove us here in the first place!

The difference between an expatriate (expat) and an immigrant is that immigrants commit themselves to becoming a part of their country of residence, whereas expatriates see themselves, and are perceived, as living in a foreign land. The term expat is often used in the context of Westerners living in non-Western countries, in countries like Saudi Arabia, expatriates are required to live in segregated compounds, meaning that integration into their host country's society is not an option.

Seoul Sister, I found the website where this quote of yours originated and also noticed that you omitted some very important parts of it to suit your own argument.

So I did some research of my own on the internet and found the following definitions of the word expat:

An expatriate (in abbreviated form expat) is someone temporarily or permanently residing in a country and culture other than that of their upbringing and/or legal residence.

Voluntarily absent from home or country.

Move away from one's native country and adopt a new residence abroad.

Residing in a foreign country.

One who has taken up residence in a foreign country. One who has renounced one's native land.

To give up residence in one's homeland. To renounce allegiance to one's homeland.

To remove (oneself) from residence in one's native land.

So Seoul Sister and Hendie, you will notice that the definition of the word “expat” actually describes you perfectly! But just because you feel so strongly about being called immigrants and not expats (and because I’m feeling lenient today), I have edited my post to also include you!

It's because of comments like these that you've just made, Hendie, and because of this mentality, that I will NEVER mingle with or even want to be associated with expats / immigrants / whatever you'd like to be called!

As always,

Janine.

[SASydneysider]

Why are you so nasty Janine? What is bothering you?

You have choices, use them and don't come to this website!!!!!!!! You don't have to associate with us or the website - just leave.

SAS

[Guest Seoul Sister]

also noticed that you omitted some very important parts of it to suit your own argument.

When I quote verbatim, I always put the source (URL) as you would have seen me do a number of times on other threads. I first wrote this LOOOONG essay trying to explain the difference between the two when I saw this handy site, where they really explained it very well. I wanted to keep things short and understandable, so sorry to disappoint you but it's not all a conspiracy to trick you...

From your list of definitions I assume you think I was giving a textbook definition of the differences... *sigh* You are undermining your own credibility by arguing about this. I don't remember ever seeing any relevant questions on Oz IMMIGRATION from you : your chance to enlighten me ? Which visa type are you considering, which city will you be moving to, have you been on an LSD yet, which cities did you enjoy, bringing your stuff with or selling everything and when are you hoping to be moving ? You want relevance ?

Let's get relevant !!!!

THE EXPAT

SS

[Janine]

Seoul Sister, at the risk of hi-jacking Jurg's thread any further, I'll reply to your questions and allegations in a more relevant section.

Janine.

[Pippa]

I agree with SASidneysider... Janine, if you don't want to associate with the people on the forum and prefer to criticize it, I suggest you find another forum where people share your views. Please don't be so destructive!

[Hendie]

Please please folks, let's not destroy the kind words that Jurg extended by being drawn into a senseless debate that ends up having NOTHING to do with the good reputation of this forum.

[Riekie]

I haven't come across any "RSA slandering undertones" on this forum which does not form part of an expected amount of sadness & disappointment about a country which could no longer offer a safe future and the reason why most of us decided to pack up & find a new home.

Before you get upset when someone share their reasons for leaving, remember that this forum also provides support to those who have taken the giant step and need to share their emotions on the experience. It is natural to be sad when you loose something - give these guys some space to let it out. I don't see it as slandering. After all - it IS all true! Some of us on this forum have very sad & shocking stories to tell, which most of us choose not to, but sometimes the only "counselling" we get is on this forum - it helps us to deal with the trauma. Being shot in the head is not bad-mouthing South Africa!

I agree, it IS hard to keep an objective view and not always possible once you look at it from an emigrant's point of view and sometimes emotions run free. We had to give up a lot to be here and I think that gives us the right to share it with our fellow forumites. To pretend it never happened is not going to make it disappear.

Jurg, thank you for your post - I think it is valid and I'm sure you did not expect to get such a (negative) response. (We also did not think that by sharing our experiences would cause such an uproar, but sometimes it does). I hope this heated discussion as a result does not put you off from visiting us again and please shout if you need info you can't find here.

This is forum life and I suppose we'll just have to live with it. If you visit a forum - any forum - you WILL find stuff you don't necessarily agree with. If you go to a rock concert you shouldn't complain about the noise.....

[Matt22]

Riekie...!!!!

You seemed to have a calming effect on me at the end of reading this whole heated debate.....although most the heat was coming from Janine.

I am also taking the first baby steps to immigrate to Auz and must say that I enjoy this forum immensly. I have read so much on all the topics that me head nearly wants to burst and I have found it very very informative.......so thank you to everyone for your knowledge and helpfulness.

I must just say that I am still in SA and at this stage I cannot even be positive about this country. Yes I love my country and my whole life is here as well as everything I know and love. Having said that though how must one remain unaffected by the brutality that goes unpunished here..............2 sisters from Soweto get raped, murdered and set alight.......the accused get out on R5000 bail....etc.etc..

I am not goint to list all that is going on here and I am also not going to run down my country as it is certain elements that makes it bad to live here and not the country itself. But like yourselves on this forum I have also just decided that the future in this country is no more a bright one and it is not a safe one. I too am going to be very sad to leave here but when it comes to the well being of my children and their possibility of having a good future then there is no other choice. My daughter is now 6 years old and she had to already experience the anxiety,trauma and counselling (with my wife) of being held up at gunpoint. What type of childhood would she have if she had to worry about crime from the age of 6......children of her age should not even know about crap like this.......

So Janine.....if you want to stay here...stay. I am taking my family to a safer place where we can live without looking over our shoulders the whole time...........I too love this country.....but the current "situation" does not love us......

[Guest Seoul Sister]

My daughter is now 6 years old and she had to already experience the anxiety,trauma and counselling (with my wife) of being held up at gunpoint. What type of childhood would she have if she had to worry about crime from the age of 6......children of her age should not even know about crap like this.......

So Janine.....if you want to stay here...stay. I am taking my family to a safer place where we can live without looking over our shoulders the whole time...........I too love this country.....but the current "situation" does not love us......

Hi Matt,

Welcome to the forum, I am glad that you have joined us. I am very sorry to hear about your situation and especially about the ordeal your little one (and of course the rest of your family as a consequence) have been through. On this topic I wanted to share something with you (at the risk of having ppl criticize my parenting skills ).

My hubs and I left SA before we had kids - in my mind I could stay in SA and never have kids or choose to have kids, but then not live in SA. And so we moved from South Africa and had our kids, whom have never lived in SA. They have visited often and are no strangers to the places, ppl and culture, but it is not their country. On our last visit to Pretoria, it was noticeable how many ppl were begging at traffic lights, a lot more than during our last visit. My 6 year old looked at these ppl with great curiosity as this was a completely foreign concept to him. At the third traffic light he couldn’t contain his surprise anymore and said to my mom :

Grandma, why do these ppl all just stand around with boards with stuff written on it ?

My mom explained that these ppl were poor and were asking for money... He thought about it for a while and came back with the following :

I think I know why they don't have money. If they want money they shouldn't stand here, they should go to work like daddy and grandpa, and get some money there...

I was amused by his response and I thought about it often, to me it is a great example of how where he has grown up influenced his perception of the world. Having not grown up in South Africa has made him an innocent child - things that Saffer children are used to and accept as normal, are not normal to him. He has not had a sheltered life (believe me !) but he has had the opportunity to grow up in a world where it’s not normal to see a large majority of ppl being homeless, unemployed, unhappy, poor, ill, etc. I am always deeply touched and very sad when I hear of other children who have not been as fortunate. Luckily your daughter is still young and it is not too late for her to still have a very happy childhood with many fun memories (which will hopefully help to dim the trauma she has been through).

Good luck with all of your plans. Please let me know if I can help somehow.

Kind Regards

Seoul Sister

Edited May 23, 2006 by Seoul Sister

[Riekie]

Hi there Matt22,

Yes, it is not an easy decision and you (together with your wife & child) are the only ones who can make that decision and live with it - whether it is to stay or to go.

The difficult part comes when you have to continually defend your decision and when family & friends write you off because of your decision to seek a better life. To some of them it can never be justified. I can speak from experience when I say this. We were lucky in that our closest friends and most of our family understood and supported our decision, but some did not and apart from loosing the country we loved, we also lost relationships close to our hearts.

We miss our friends, we miss our family and yes, we do miss all the wonderful things about our country! Not ever mentioning why you decided to leave - on a forum such as this, for instance - is unrealistic and unnatural. People have the need to get it out - it is part of the healing process. This forum is just one way where they can do it and where they will not be judged. (Well, most of the time )

I hope you will continue to post on this forum and ask as many questions as you want. Share your feelings, fears, and emotions and ask for information and assistance - this is what it's all about!

[Matt22]

Hi there SS and Riekie..

Thank you both for your responses. It really is nice to see that there still are good people out there.

SS what you say is absolutely true.....our kids here are so used to these things that they take it in as part of daily life..which I think is very sad. I mean when I think back in my life the first time I even got to do with the criminals and criminal behaviour was after matric when I joined the police force. This is one of the many reasons I (we) need to get out of SA asap.

Riekie baie dankie vir jou offer ook om te help met raad en ander dinge...ek waardeer dit regtig baie. Jy weet wanneer ek elke dag om my rondkyk en sien wat aangaan raak ek skoon angstig en is dit amper asof iets vir my se dat ek my familie vinnig hier moet wegkry want daar is 'n deadline wanneer iets gaan gebeur wat dit te laat sal maak......weet jy wat ek bedoel ??

Ek het ook vrae ja en sal dit stuur sodra ek 'n bietjie spaar tyd het maar moet nou eers weer hardloop....werk roep alweer.

Tot later....baie dankie julle