No Jab No Play nor Pay

[Sassyninja]

Anyone else doing selective vaccines or a delayed schedule feeling the same way? 

 

In the final stages of planning this trip, and this topic making me incredibly nervous about going to Aus. 

 

My eldest daughter had a reaction to the Chickenpox (varicella) vaccine. So now I am very cautious about which vaccines I give my girls. 

So HPV is out, chickenpox one too... 

But the No Jab No Play / Pay laws don't take into account that I've done my research and that my girls are just more likely to react due as they do not detox due to a gene, but 

that's not enough - they have to be allergic to egg for us to be exempt... 

 

I am terrified that we're forced to do all the vax and the damage is permanent. I also worry that each year new vaccines will be added to the already overloaded schedules. 
I know I sound like a complete worry wart - but these are my children, (without sounding dramatic) - my everything!

 

 

[AFreshStart]

Your children will not be allowed into a private school/daycare without having all their vaccinations up to date and to the Australian standard. They don't muck about here.

 

Public schools CAN take your child, they can't stop

you enrolling them, but you will not receive your childcare rebates and benefits, that's part of the no jab policy, but you can choose not to have them.

 

We stuck to the private schedule in South Africa, it was still not acceptable here, both kids needed TWO extra jabs before being given the all clear and given a letter from Medicare/Centerlink, which needed to be provided to the school before they were enrolled.

 

I'm not aware of a way around it, at least without loosing your Centerlink benefits.

 

Cheers

 

Matt

 

 

[Sassyninja]

Thanks Matt - that's what I thought, "financial freedom and safety" vs "freedom of choice". Pity we couldn't get a % of the rebate accordingly, so no vaccines 0 rebate and 70% - 60% rebate. haha

Perhaps we can battle without the rebate until they get to school age?? 

[AFreshStart]

5 minutes ago, Sassyninja said:

Thanks Matt - that's what I thought, "financial freedom and safety" vs "freedom of choice". Pity we couldn't get a % of the rebate accordingly, so no vaccines 0 rebate and 70% - 60% rebate. haha

Perhaps we can battle without the rebate until they get to school age?? 

 

Can you imagine the nightmare for Medicare to have to administer a percentage based rebate

 

I'm sitting with the records in front of me and this is the schedule as required from 2015 and they match up to this list here, if you want to check against what you have vaccinated against or might need to. Chicken Pox isn't needed until your children are 10-15 years of age.

 

I will tell you we'd have struggled without the childcare rebate, it's $7,500 a year, which is a fair penny, esp. on a single salary in Sydney.

 

Cheers

 

Matt

[Sassyninja]

Looks like we've done most excepting chickenpox and mmr. i see they have chickenpox as part of a combo - MMRV (V for Varicella - chickenpox) so 18 months and 4 years. 
 

Here its a seperate one but not part of the public schedule. 

[Freshlife2015]

HI Matt,

Thanks for the link. My son is 6 Years old. We have given almost all the listed vaccines. Do we need to submit any proof that the vaccines have been given to my son. If yes, what kind of support document is needed? 

 

[Sunnyskies]

We simply took the jab record we had from SA to a doctor who then recorded what they had had in South Africa into their system, gave them their extra shots and recorded those.  I took a printout from the doctor and have used that. If your children are under 7 they will record the extra shots on the national register  (both of mine were over so that didn't apply). Now when they get jabs at school we simply keep the cards they get confirming vaccinations have been given. 

 

There has been a lot of press about the problems of no jab kids and the no jab no pay policy was implemented to incentive lazy parents to get the jab and only let the true no jabbers remain on the basis that if you felt that strongly about no jab you would happily forfeit the benefit. As they say money talks.

 

Most parents are supportive of the policy as I'm sure you don't want your kids exposed to a virus that can kill or permanently maim your child even if they have had the jab.  

[RedPanda]

It's also about herd immunity. Every non-immunised child could carry and spread the disease (whichever one breaks out), and by doing this they put other children and sometimes adults at risk, and MediCare (all taxpayers) pick up the bill. So as a blanket policy it makes a lot of sense. But with any policy there will always be some people for whom it genuinely is not a good fit.

@Sassyninja is there any chance you could talk to an Aussie doctor about this? Do you have any record, or could you obtain a statement from your South African doctor that confirms that your eldest daughter had an allergic reaction?

[Sassyninja]

RedPanda - sadly it happened at 18 months, she's now 3, all I have is a photo, which I doubt will suffice.

I will have to speak to a doctor when we get there - either I can have them tested to prove natural immunity and then do a "catch-up" program with a GP there for the few we're missing or skip the last few and suffer financially for a bit. 

Seems there is a lot of whooping cough in Aus hey? Hardly ever hear about it here?? 

[Nev]

Whooping cough was all but gone from Auz, unfortunately with the number of people not getting their kids vaccinated it is making a comeback, along with other lousy stuff.

 

This is a good part of the new no jab law

[Sassyninja]

Thought I'd look it up as I don't understand why WC is not that prevalent here in SA when our vaccine rates are lower, and we have more immune compromised people than Aus. 

 

it appears those vaccinated become carriers for the disease (from the FDA website):

http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm376937.htm

This research suggests that although individuals immunized with an acellular pertussis vaccine may be protected from disease, they may still become infected with the bacteria without always getting sick and are able to spread infection to others, including young infants who are susceptible to pertussis disease.


@Nev - I dont think all vaccines are created equal, goes for our kids too, "one size fits all" doesn't always work. 
 

Edited January 20, 2016 by Sassyninja

[Sassyninja]

Thanks to those who assisted. 

[Nev]

You are spot on with the issue that vaccinated people can still get sick, that is why there needs to be a high enough % vaccinated to stop an outbreak, just recently there was a school in brunswick that has a tolerance policy to vaccinations where 40% of the school is off sick with chickenpox, it spread like crazy.

 

Regardless of if vaccines are created equal, if a large enough percentage of the population is vaccinated there is no outbreaks, a few people may become infected and then it peters out, when too many people dont get vaccinated that no longer works and all the nasty stuff comes back, as is happening here, and in the USA, and other countries where vaccinated rates are dropping.

 

 

You mention that it is not prevalent in SA, where do you get the numbers from as i dont think the government releases those numbers?

 

[Sunnyskies]

I also did a little Googling on this, and found:

1. the incidence of WC is growing in the developing world, but that is put down to the declining jab rates;

2. in the developing world, data is not kept as efficiently, and there have not been enough studies done to establish whether the incidence is increasing or not.  Also harder to tell whether increasing as there is a great instance of non-jabbing and so generally more cases.

3. The reports to GPs say that South Africa should do a greater level of investigation as to whether the incidence of WC is increasing and that SA should seriously consider a planned immunisation programme specifically for WC.

 

For the non-jabbers out there, you will be happy to hear that there are Facebook groups specifically geared towards you and you can find daycare facilities which are full of other non-jabbers (the state hate them as they believe these are hotbeds waiting to explode with all the old diseases that people think have disappeared).

 

I understand the fear of your child reacting to a vaccine, it is a fear that all parents have but I think that the world is slowly beginning to ask parents whose children are not vaccinated to be sure that you are not simply reacting to fear mongering.  Your desire to protect your child may kill or maim them and many others.

 

You should probably have a serious discussion with your paediatrician who can confirm or allay your fears.  If confirmed I'm sure they would be willing to put it in writing and you can then discuss it with a GP when you get here and you may qualify for exemption from the policy.

[RedPanda]

2 hours ago, Nev said:

Regardless of if vaccines are created equal, if a large enough percentage of the population is vaccinated there is no outbreaks, a few people may become infected and then it peters out, when too many people don't get vaccinated that no longer works and all the nasty stuff comes back, as is happening here, and in the USA, and other countries where vaccinated rates are dropping.

 

 

Jip, it's called 'herd immunity', if it is high, then even people who are not vaccinated are more protected from disease than otherwise. For example, if the large majority of people are vaccinated then the few individuals who cannot be vaccinated due to allergies are also less likely to get the diseases.

[monsta]

Another way to look at it,  is its a trade off.  

 

Medicare is a great system because all residents and citizens are on it.  The best way to keep your family safe from disease is to make sure the peeps who do get sick,  get treated. 

 

That's not an option in South Africa given the poverty 

 

So,  yes I contribute to medicare so the homeless guy can get treated. My reward is that he is less likely to make me sick. 

 

But no system is perfect.  Aussies start asking questions like,  "why should I contribute to the homeless guys whooping cough treatment if we refuses to get vaccinated!?!" 

 

Whenever you see tough rules and regulations.. They always come from people who complain too much  

[Roselee]

On January 20, 2016 at 1:47 AM, Nev said:

Whooping cough was all but gone from Auz, unfortunately with the number of people not getting their kids vaccinated it is making a comeback, along with other lousy stuff.

 

This is a good part of the new no jab law

 

Actually, it is not factual to blame it on those who haven't vaccinated.  The reality is that the current whooping cough vaccine is the acellular vaccine that is much weaker, waning very fast.  However, it has slightly less side effects such as SIDS and brain damage in infants receiving the whole cell vaccine.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/815247

 

[Roselee]

22 hours ago, monsta said:

 

But no system is perfect.  Aussies start asking questions like,  "why should I contribute to the homeless guys whooping cough treatment if we refuses to get vaccinated!?!" 

 

 

The reality is that it could have easily have been a vaccinated person who transmitted the whooping cough to the homeless person(s).  See article linked above that points out that the Acellular Pertussis Vaccine May Not Prevent Transmission, i.e. risk(s) without benefits (except for the pharmaceutical companies who making a fortune, often without liability when something goes wrong).

Edited January 22, 2016 by Roselee

[Roselee]

On January 20, 2016 at 2:42 AM, Nev said:

You are spot on with the issue that vaccinated people can still get sick, that is why there needs to be a high enough % vaccinated to stop an outbreak, just recently there was a school in brunswick that has a tolerance policy to vaccinations where 40% of the school is off sick with chickenpox, it spread like crazy.

 

Regardless of if vaccines are created equal, if a large enough percentage of the population is vaccinated there is no outbreaks, a few people may become infected and then it peters out, when too many people dont get vaccinated that no longer works and all the nasty stuff comes back, as is happening here, and in the USA, and other countries where vaccinated rates are dropping.

 

 

It's time the whole 'herd immunity' canard was dropped regarding vaccination, as it doesn't apply:

 

Real immunity is natural immunity from acquiring the disease and developing true immunity, typically for a lifetime.  Vaccination is not really immunization as all vaccines wane after a few months/years depending on the vaccine and the individual.  Where is the benefit of herd immunity for those who either die from or are injured by vaccines?

 

It's also incredible that there is even a fuss made regarding children getting chicken pox which is a benign childhood disease.  Many countries don't even bother with the chicken pox vaccine.

Edited January 22, 2016 by Roselee

[Splinky]

Hi Sassyninja,

 

This is a topic I have also wrestled with. I have a medical background so I have access to and know how to interpret studies that have been done regarding vaccinations.

 

My son is 3 years old and I have had him vaxxed on time according to the SA schedule, with the exception of MMR. I felt that because he was not in child care and did not have exposure to large groups of children, the risk of MMR side effects outweighed the benefits. He is now waitlisted for an excellent local preschool and I will take him in for the MMR shot before he starts (and immediately if an outbreak occurs). Not because of the rebate/money, but to protect him. Measles is a horrible disease with horrible complications. That said, the side effects of MMR can be equally as horrible, but the chances are really much smaller. As a mother, I know that this means nothing if it is YOUR child who is the one in a million.

 

The preschool my son will attend does allow unvaxxed kiddies (there are 3 enrolled at the moment) and currently has one confirmed case of whooping cough. WC is a serious problem, both in Aus and in SA and babies do die from this disease. My 4 month old is on track for these shots due to the outbreak. If there was no outbreak, i would have delayed the vacs slightly.

 

I honestly do understand your fears but would seriously recommend making sure your kids are covered for WC and if attending prechool/school, for measles as well.

 

If your child did have a documented allergic reaction to a vaccine (I feel a photograph would suffice), you should be able to get an exemption from a GP.

 

All the best with your choices. Not easy being a mother.

[Roselee]

SassyNinja, hopefully this will help you with your questions and concerns: http://www.vaccinationawareness.com.au/Vaccine_Exemptions.html

 

Perhaps check into getting titres done for the applicable diseases.  You might be surprised to find that your girls are immune to a number of diseases.  Surely they should accept titres.  Sometimes a disease is so mild one doesn't realize that it wasn't just a simple cold or something like that.  Apparently Rubella is typically mild.   Actually, positive titres, i.e. true immunity, is actually much better than vaccination.

 

You are right to want to avoid the HPV vaccine.  It seems to be the worst vaccine.  This footage was taken in Colombia of girls after HPV vaccines.  It is very disturbing to see them having seizures etc.

 

 

 A number of girls have died from the HPV vaccine and many girls have had their health ruined.  The government in Japan does not recommend the HPV Vaccine. There are also reports of premature ovarian failure. http://healthimpactnews.com/2013/studyhpv-vaccine-linked-to-premature-menopause-in-young-girls/  Wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. 

 

Edited January 22, 2016 by Roselee

[Roselee]

1 hour ago, Splinky said:

the risk of MMR side effects outweighed the benefits. 

 

The risk of the MMR does outweigh any purported benefits.  

The risk of a child dying from measles is about 1 in 1000 of those who actually contract measles.  

The risk of a child being diagnosed autistic is going up every year, it has already passed 1 in 88 in the US: 35772-can-autism-be-cured

https://sharylattkisson.com/what-the-news-isnt-saying-about-vaccine-autism-studies/

 

Great documentary: 'We don't Vaccinate':

 

Edited January 22, 2016 by Roselee
Also added documentary

[LeonH]

Hi Roselee,

 

Would you mind sharing your qualifications with us?

[Splinky]

Please do not quote me out of context, Roselee.

 

There is NO known cause of autism. Vaccinations have not been shown to cause autism. As I have said, vaccines do have side effects but most are incredibly rare and are not as severe as the complications one could encounter with a disease like measles.

 

I also personally believe autistic tendencies may possibly be triggered in predisposed children. This is my feeling and opinion as a mother and is not backed up by any scientific evidence. My fears will not stop me protecting my son with the MMR vaccine when he is at at higher risk of contracting measles and it should not stop you, unless you feel your child is genetically predisposed. People tend to think of measles as a harmless childhood illness but have a look into SSPE and other complications of this deadly disease.

 

I have realised that this is a difficult topic to debate with both vaxers and anti vaxers because it is obviously a highly emotional issue involving children. Please be careful when advising people regarding vaccinations. You are causing much more harm than good.

[Roselee]

It is interesting how a disease gets labelled deadly or dangerous once there is a vaccine.  I guess to scare the 'herd' into vaccinating: