Job Market

[SurferMan]

I will wait for GFC 2.0. Don't mind renting a bit longer, i'm in no rush. When my inventions hit the market, I will be able to buy cash hopefully, so will be in an even better position to haggle for a good price. Perth is bonkers overpriced.

[Bob]

It is also fantastic for the country that Asians are sending their kids here to be educated for whatever the reason, it gives a huge boost to the economy, cash revenue into the school system and a bucket of tax, you should never frame that in a negative light.

My daughter is a dentist. When she was in her last year (5th) of dentistry, she paid a visit to the 1st year of dentistry classes.

Out of 100 students, only 4 were white Australians. The other 96 were from wealthy Indian and Chinese families who could afford to pay the expensive fees to put their kids thro a Western university and stay, on graduation, in a Western country.

Sure . . . . it is fantastic for the University to get all these expensive fees paid up front . . . but 20 or 30 years down the track 95% of the skilled and educated in Australia will be Asian.

Personally, I don't blame the Asians for trying to get a better life for themselves by sending their kids to an Australian or New Zealand university, but if current government policy results in being detrimental to the locals, it seems to me like Australia in the future is going to be like South Africa of today where there are no prospects for the kids of a particular skin colour and they will only get up to 5% of University placements, if they're lucky.

Edited February 8, 2015 by Bob

[Nev]

Not sure i understand, are you saying that they are going to implement ratio's based in skin color in Auz?

I don't understand how a university having more money from training foreign students will mean that locals wont get a chance.

The study options in Australia are fantastic and i don't see that changing, not too sure i get your reasoning?

[SurferMan]

I was also a bit lost there! I am teaching my kids to be entrepeneurs. My view is that if you work for someone, you are making them rich. (Says the guy who only now went on his own...at least my excuse was a lack of PR) Now I can cane it big time again. perhaps a bit of a jaundiced view as I know not everyone is cut out to be a self starter and lots of people are happy to draw a salary. Me, I like swimming upstream. :jester:

[Bob]

Australian universities should be putting the education of Australian kids first, and satisfy the academic aspirations of Australian kids before admitting well-heeled overseas students.

If Australian kids have to compete academically against the best and brightest of 1.3 billion Chinese and 1 billion Indians, then they are on the back foot straight away. Just numerically, 23 million have an uphill task against 2, 300 million. . . . . numerically, for every Australian kid there are 1 000 Indian and Chinese kids. To top it off, if you graduate, you can stay in Australia and work and live here, and down the track get your relatives into Australia, too.

There is a big carrot for Indian and Chinese kids to study in Australian and New Zealand universities. If I were a wealthy Asian, I would definitely look into sending one or more of my kids to university like that, in preference to a local university where exams are gained by back handers and their degrees are compromised, and I could earn only Indian or Chinese wages for the rest of my life.

Trouble is, there are only so many places in Australia to study some professions.

If you want to study to be a vet, for instance, there are only three universities in Australia that do the course from my knowledge.

As an example, say you live in a state where only the best and brightest kids can go on to university.

You are from a small country town of 1,000 people which has its own High School, and local kids don't have to pay to go to their local high school. Their school fees are paid in the yearly rates on each and every householder in town.

The High School however, can only accommodate 100 kids in the last year of school when they sit the university entrance exam. That particular school has a high academic standard and can get all their kids into Uni. Being a great place to study, every kid for miles wants to study there and have a go at the university entrance exam.

Right next door, there is also a big city of 100 000 people, with not such good schools but the well heeled can afford to send their kids to the one and only high school in your small country town, which only has seats for 100 kids in their university entrance year. The parents can afford the high fees demanded of the one and only High School in your country town, because they are not householders paying their rates there, and living in the small town.

The country town High School enjoys the increased income from the fee paying parents, and the Headmaster sees it as an easy way to make some extra dollars for the school, even if it means the local kids don't always get educated as they might.

There are lots of kids in your small country town of 1 000 that would love to sit their uni entrance exam and get a good career started, but find it too hard academically to get a place in the final year because all the rich fee paying kids from the big city of 100 000 people are taking most of the available places.

There are only 100 places in the last year's class, and what's more, they can't attend any other school, certainly not the schools in the big city.

If they don't make it into that one particular high school, they are frozen out.

Sound fair???

Edited February 8, 2015 by Bob

[SurferMan]

Umm, some fair points advanced there, but still not sure if I'm sold. That may be a function of my lack of deep knowledge on the topic/only WA experience, but I think longer term there are more subtle undercurrents at work/play. Some good points you make though, worthy of interrogation.

[Nev]

I still think the overseas students are to Australia's benefit,

You seem to be saying that the Au kids wont get as good an education because the foreigners send their smart kids here, the kids with rich parents come here, not the smartest, Paris Hilton is not super smart because her parents were rich.

Money from the government pays most of the Uni costs, so that sets the level of educators and equipment that can be afforded, bring in more revenue and you get a better uni for the locals as well, as there is extra funds that wouldn't be there from locals as the government wouldn't increase their spend.

There is a reason why the uni's who take foreign students have a much wider set of courses and some of the best equipment in the world, and the funds they get from the government wont support all of that.

I hear you on your example, but the foreign students are not going to small town high schools they are going to big city uni's.

[Fish]

I have not checked but we were always assured that foreign full fee paying students were additions to Australian places not replacements.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Fish

[Bob]

I have not checked but we were always assured that foreign full fee paying students were additions to Australian places not replacements.

I should hope that would be the case, but I have my doubts.

In the state of Queensland, there aren't too many dental hospitals training new dentists.

I just find it a bit hard to believe that there would only be 4 Australian kids in one of three dental schools in that state, with a population of 4 million.

Something just doesn't add up.

I suspect there were more than 4 kids in the population that put in for those positions, but they didn't get in . . . . . . or at least that was the impression my daughter came away with, having done the five year course and graduated and is now practising.

In my town alone, up in the Hills immediately to the east of Adelaide (a city of 1.1 million) in South Australia, my daughter has been talking to couple of dental clinics that service the people here (20 000 people in the district).

There is a need for 7 more dentists in my town alone, let alone across the whole of Australia.

Travelling back from Brisbane to Adelaide with my daughter last week, we travelled over 2 000 kms in three days, passing thro many country towns along the way. Many of them have no dentists in town and the people living there have to travel hours to see a dentist operating in a country town many miles away.

I find it hard to believe that the Australian gov't only trains up an handful of Australian students each year in dentistry to supply the needs of the population as a whole.

There is an enormous need across Australia for more health workers . . . . . nurses, dentists and doctors . . . . . but I suspect it's cheaper to get half a dozen Third World foreigners than spend the $1 000 000 over five or six years that it takes to train up one Australian.

That would imply that Australia just isn't training up enough health specialists among its own population to keep up with the current need of things.

[Sibella]

I tend to agree with Bob and I worry about my kids chances to get into university and study what they are interested in. For instance about a year ago we visited an optometrist and my 12 year old wanted to find out more about it so we asked the young Asian optometrist about his studies etc. Apparently even though he scored amazingly high especially in Maths and Science he couldn't get in as there are only a few places each year so he had to do another pathway basically studying to be a doctor (for a few years) and then training as an optometrist. So not sure where this leaves my average at Maths daughter - definitely not optometry or anything in the medical field.

My eight year old always says she wants to become a teacher but after seeing my Australian friends struggle to find even temporary teaching jobs I can't recommend that either.

So yes we'll have make them study something that will be in demand - don't care what they want to do!!

[Nev]

Hi Sibella, that didnt sound right so i did a quick search,

I am not sure what direct method the chap you spoke to was talking about but from my quick look it seems that the route he took is the normal way it is done,

If you look at this university of melbourne page it shows that there are 3 options, Medical, Science or Scholars, then you continue on to optometry:

http://coursesearch.unimelb.edu.au/pathways/7-optometry

If your youngster doesn't qualify for the course in terms of marks there are also options of doing an initial piece of study then moving into that later, just depends on how badly they want it.

It is also possible to start with college diploma's then continue on into the degree getting credit for what you have already done, not sure about optometry but with the things we have seen so far that was the case.

My wife is in the process of looking at a complete change of direction with regards to work, so we have been doing a lot of reading up on it.

[Splinky]

I feel that at least our kids have a chance of getting into their desired course at university, if they work hard and get the marks that are required. In SA, they are doomed by the quota system. My old varsity (traditionally a Afrikaans university) allowed for only 6 white female English speaking students in a class of 75 medical students. And that was a decade ago...

[Eto]

Hi All,

Just clocking in to see if there has been any positive movement in the job market . The iron ore price per ton appears to be on the down again and this will probably lead to further job losses and more people in the hunt for jobs advertised .......

Cheers

Eto

[qwerty]

My cousin's wife and 15 other people at her company lost their jobs recently...haven't been able to find anything yet. Apparently the job market in Perth is very quiet.

[monsta]

@Bob, Aussie should be educating foreign kids. In watched a doco from the BBC that said making the UK into a premium university destination would be a very good idea. They talked about ARM, the company who designs the CPU cores in your cell phone. They only design, they don't manufacture anything. They have been able to do it because of smart graduates from Oxford and Cambridge.

We need to do the same here. The issue is the draw for the foreign parents is that Aussie is close and western. There is a perception that the exposure to western life will help their kids in a management role back home.

Aussie needs a few companies like ARM. So we need to educate all these foreign students then give VISAs to the smartest ones. I think the government knows that all too well. But its going to take government funding into scientific research to kick start the high tech industry. That's the stumbling block. Voters here will vote for a different party if they get promised a free coke!

Edited April 21, 2015 by monsta

[SurferMan]

@qwerty & eto,

It's the end of April and I still have not signed up a new client. Perth is in a very bad shape and it will only get worse. When the smaller mines tank like Atlas they will be bought by BHP/Rio. I am definately going to need to move over east at some point. Even local guys are saying they never seen it so bad. And it aint even another GFC yet.

[Eto]

Thanks Surferman & qwerty.

Not good news at all.

Eto

[SurferMan]

Sorry Eto,

Would like to have lied but I prefer the truth! Long term this place is heading down and I am not sure it will pick up unless oil and gas make a major jump up.

[Eto]

Hi SurferMan,

Not good news, but I guess it is still a better market than RSA.

Looks like I will have to shoot for a casual position (sweeping or making tea ) with a reputable company and then wait for a more suitable position to become vacant within.

Thanks to everyone for your input.

Cheers for now.

Eto

[monsta]

Would like to have lied but I prefer the truth! Long term this place is heading down and I am not sure it will pick up unless oil and gas make a major jump up.

Unfortunately very true... Economists are talking about all the doom and gloom because the mining industry isn't going to pick up any time soon. They even point out that China is opening its own mines so they can control supply.

What makes an economy "bad" is people not willing to make the changes they need to, because its hard to make those changes. NZ is doing really well at the moment. After the GFC and the earthquakes, they knew they were in a hole and have been working hard to get out of it. They have made the sacrifices they need to improve their economy.

For example, the minimum wage is way to high here. The economy as a whole should keep the minimum wage reasonable, but focus on making sure people can live off it. If you pay someone well, they will buy an IPhone and spend their 2 hour trip to work complaining on-line about their long commute. Instead of everyone having a the latest IPhone we should be building more train lines.

But alas, people here go "election shopping". They look for quick fixes, like a "school kids bonus" payout.

Building more train lines requires more Aussie skills... even a few more SAP deployments for @SurferMan.

Cheers

[Eto]

And here is the trick question...

Based on current economics, is it not better then to sit it out in RSA instead of taking the plunge in the hope of finding work in Oz?

[Joeemm]

I guess it depends on a number of factors, for e.g.. What job are you looking for, what sort of visa are you coming on? Do you have children (what ages)? Have you got a job lined up? I guess from the thread you don't have a job yet. Well I still think I'd rather be unemployed in Australia (citizen or at least PR) rather than in ZA. But saying that I'm an IT Business Analyst and I've been 'between contracts' as they say for nearly 6 months now and I keep hearing of layoffs at the big groups like Rio Tinto etc.

So not sure what exact area you work in, but unless its very specialised you may find it difficult to land that first job here in Perth. When we came about 9 years ago I took nearly 3 month to land a role. But this is the longest I've ever been out of work. If you have the option perhaps some research over east as you seem to be thinking is a good way to go.

Good luck with the move. It's still a very good decision in my view,and really not a choice if you have children, its a when not an if anymore (hope thats not too much of a rant).

[monsta]

@eto. Perth is definitely struggling. But Sydney is doing alright.

They call the mining industry, "boom or bust" for good reason. So, Aussie has always had their problem of running out of skills, only to lay everyone off a few years later. Look at Melbourne.. After world war 2, they built the great ocean road to find jobs for the returning service men. Even Perth built a water pipe miles into the desert, they built a harbour, etc.

The problem is Australia is a commonwealth, I.e.its a group of self governed states that cooperate on certain issues. One of them being taxation and where there money goes. So, its hard to get funding for big infrastructure projects.

I would suggest to move to where the work is.. In a few years move out to Perth when the next boom happens. Then try to secure a job that's going to be needed in good times and bad ones.

[SurferMan]

Haha Moneta,

Mate all I need is one of my apps to get bought out and I am done! Even if I sell it for as little as $50 million, that is cool enough for me. Lemme know when you got those SAP deployments ready!

One other thing, the job market in Perth is still WAY better than in SA. My one mate does a similar thing to me, and he has only just gotten a new contract, some 13 months after his last one got transferred.

[peterm]

@eto. Perth is definitely struggling. But Sydney is doing alright.

They call the mining industry, "boom or bust" for good reason. So, Aussie has always had their problem of running out of skills, only to lay everyone off a few years later. Look at Melbourne.. After world war 2, they built the great ocean road to find jobs for the returning service men. Even Perth built a water pipe miles into the desert, they built a harbour, etc.

The problem is Australia is a commonwealth, I.e.its a group of self governed states that cooperate on certain issues. One of them being taxation and where there money goes. So, its hard to get funding for big infrastructure projects.

I would suggest to move to where the work is.. In a few years move out to Perth when the next boom happens. Then try to secure a job that's going to be needed in good times and bad ones.

The great ocean road was built after ww1 not ww2.