Comparing serious crime stats in RSA, Iraq, OZ

[HansaPlease]

Nev can I ask a pointed question. Do your support the Boks or the Oz rugby team ?

Can I ask a pointed question?

Are you a troll?

[Bronwyn&Co]

I`d rather not make and comments. But this links into the discussion.

"In 2008/2009 18 148 people in South Africa were murdered. This amounts to 37,3 people per 100 000, or just under 50 per day.[21] The evidence we have examined indicates that the victims are disproportionately African and coloured working class people. Young men are also disproportionately represented in the murder statistics.

We examined Statistics South Africa (Stats SA) mortality data to determine the breakdown of murders by race. Our analysis is inconclusive but it indicates that victims are disproportionately Africans and coloureds."

extract from here...

http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page72308?oid=155641&sn=Marketingweb%20detail

This was also my understanding & (I think) what Johnno based his comment on.

In fact I got into a lot of trouble on the forum back in about 2008 for suggesting the opposite...that white people were mostly victims of crime. I was very quickly corrected and it was not so nice for me. So I learnt something back then & it stuck with me.

Interesting how perceptions have changed on here over the years ?

[funtobeaussiechick]

There are trolls here. You know who you are, the Saffa mug and the other cheezy chap

[Mikej]

In fact I got into a lot of trouble on the forum back in about 2008 for suggesting the opposite...that white people were mostly victims of crime. I was very quickly corrected and it was not so nice for me. So I learnt something back then & it stuck with me.

Interesting how perceptions have changed on here over the years

That is interesting because it has always been my perception that whites are murdered at a higher rate proportionately than the rest of the population. After the ANC stopped reporting on crime stats in the early 2000's many commentators speculated that they stopped because whites were being murdered at a much higher rate than blacks. Crime stats have since been reported again but without the race component so nobody knows who is being killed.

http://www.genocidewatch.org/home.html

In the mean time some civil groups have been collecting their own data from sources such as mortuaries, churches, insurance companies and other organisations and this information has been used by Genocide Watch. Genocide Watch placed white farmers at a category 5 on the Genocide scale. Stage 5 is the organisation of the genocide. GW estimates that last year 20 out of the approximately 50 people murdered everyday in South Africa were white.

I don't know if these figures are accurate but check out the website and decide for yourselves. This is an international organisation based in Washington and it's aim is to predict and prevent genocide around the world not just South Africa.

[chzaau]

Nope don't do it to stir, I'm sorry guys, I crossed over to the bad side. I plan now to rectify my wrong. From now on I will ensure that I sell the South Africa is bad, Australia is good, nothing ever goes wrong in Oz.

[Nev]

Sounds good

[AndreaL]

Nope don't do it to stir, I'm sorry guys, I crossed over to the bad side. I plan now to rectify my wrong. From now on I will ensure that I sell the South Africa is bad, Australia is good, nothing ever goes wrong in Oz.

As the delightful Pauline Hanson would say...." Please explain"......Nothing wrong with being patriotic,but you consistently strive to show that Australia is failing, declining, whilst South Africa is booming/growing..............I'm talking industry here.

Australia is no utopia, but it's pretty good, that is why we choose to stay here. I still can't determine if you view yourself as a realist or a pessimist.

The entire world is in a downturn, it happens, but Australia is riding it a whole lot better than many countries.

I am not sure if you are here in Australia yet, but I know that you read a lot of news articles and keep yourself informed, but it simply isn't the same as living in a country.

Even the fiercest patriot, or deluded numbskull could not argue that RSA is safer then Australia, the rest of the debate is just emotions and egos.

[Donovan83]

Nope don't do it to stir, I'm sorry guys, I crossed over to the bad side. I plan now to rectify my wrong. From now on I will ensure that I sell the South Africa is bad, Australia is good, nothing ever goes wrong in Oz.

Probably better than what you've been peddling lately, which basically boils down to "oh guys it's mainly the blacks getting murdered in RSA but it's okay because they're just blacks. "

Edited September 17, 2014 by Donovan83

[AndreaL]

Probably better than what you've been peddling lately, which basically boils down to "oh guys it's mainly the blacks getting murdered in RSA but it's okay because they're just blacks. "

I think that's Johnno ......but I could be wrong, but wow Donovan, said like that it's really stark.......every untimely death is a national shame.......

[Sunnyskies]

Chzaau I dont think anyone is asking to sell the Aus is good SA is bad line. Many of us see good in SA and bad in Aus but the issue is with blindly pushing one side of the story to the exclusion of anything else (whichever side you are pushing). You remind me of my brother, who happily does that just to get a reaction. There comes a point where we just ignore him - it's not much fun when no one wants to play with you.

[SurferMan]

Okay everyone,

Here comes Surferman with the bucket, let's help him pick up the toys! PMSL. So, we have some pretty strong opinions for the Saffer team and the Aussie team.

What FACTS can we distill from this:

• SA is more violent and you are far more likley to die a violent and gruesome death at the hands of some prick goon "crimeeenal"
• The economy is not doing great, and there is a swag of data to show the foreign capital inflows are dropping over the last few years. Normally this means investors have "seen the writing on the wall" and are moving to cover the long term risk. That said, it is still a functional economy and will take a while still to start taking serious water on. When the social grants breaks 20 million, I say SA will be in real trouble. (16.3 million for 2013...)
• Has only 1.1 million real taxpayers, of which less than 300 000 pay >93% of all tax. (Source SARS annual report, download it if you like)
• Has more than 50 million people residing there. When I worked in Gov, the projection for 2012 was actually 68 million... (I am sure the cencus got fiddled with, but have no empirical evidence other than news reports to that end.)
• Aus economy is going into a bit of a slowdown, bit is still pretty good if you compare to Italy, Spain, Turkey etc.
• You can be killed in either country, but your odds of making it to a ripe old age and borrowing from your kids is far better in Aus than in SA. Cold fact.
• Farming in SA will put you on par with countries at war, in terms of risk of unnatural death.
• Land rights are slowly being eroded.
• The government in SA is implementing the Marx 10 point plan. Cold fact.
• You can go around after dark in most Aus cities and be okay. Try that in Joburg, I dare you, I double dare you!

In summary, I would say Aus is a far less stressful lifestyle and joyous place to live. But, flesh and blood of kith and kin live across the waters and I will never stop missing them. In fact it will probably get worse as I age. But I am in Aus for me and my family, and my attitude is I try my best not to knock SA, and I speak well of it where I get the chance, but I also dont BS the facts. it is sliding downhill, it is violent and corrupt, and dispropprtionately so. Failed State incoming...

Somebody please help me down my soapbox, PMSL!

Edited September 17, 2014 by SurferMan

[Donovan83]

Yeah sorry if it came over a bit harshly (and more importantly, sorry if I directed that comment at the wrong person) but it's just a general theme I am noticing. Nobody knows for sure what race is at most risk of being murdered in RSA, but that actually isn't relevant. What matters is that all people there are at a higher risk of being murdered than in Australia.

[SurferMan]

I'm with you Dono,

The guy at the pointy end of a knife or gun at that second does NOT regret being black, white etc, just that it's the end of line right there for them. There are lots of factors to consider as to why crime is so high and so violent. Fact is, it is not getting better, no matter what spin they put on the stats. So, at risk of being caned for this, but I just could NOT resist...Aussie Aussie Aussie, oi, oi oi!

(Scampers for cover...)

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/livestock-theft-exceeds-r500m-1.1751911#.VBkbBhauR8E

[Tiermelk]

I always find it fascinating how people interpret things differently...

From some website:

"When there's a traffic accident, police ask for witnesses to come forward and describe what happened. They like to have as many witness statements as possible so that they can build up enough evidence to give them a broader, more realistic version of events. In a traffic accident, there will be many different perspectives on what happened. The driver of one car will have one view, another driver or a passenger will have yet another view. Each onlooker who witnessed the accident will have a slightly different perspective, depending on where they were, how far they were, how good a view they had, what else was going on, how much danger they felt they were in, how the accident affected them, what the accident means to them.

It's the same principle with everything - each situation, event, conversation, means something different to all those involved, and also to those not involved. We give different meanings, according to our belief systems, and how we are affected by the event.

We all have our own realities. Anais Nin said “We don’t see things as they are, we see things as we are”.

We look at situations, events, and interpret what other people say and do, according to our own set of past experiences, culture, faith, values, all of which help us form our beliefs about ourselves, about others, and about the world in general. The meaning we give events, the way we make sense of our world, is based upon our set of core beliefs. "

O yes, of course things are as I see them!

[SurferMan]

Nice one tiermelk,

I said the same thing, but certainly with far less poetic eloquence than you!

[heidim]

Surferman, you worked in Government and you could afford a butler????!!!

Did you build your own Nkandla???

[SurferMan]

Eisch heidim,

It was the architect, honest! I contracted to them. I also had some peripheral view of Zooma's corruption charges, I knew the main Scorpion who brought him down (well, not yet, but soon..) My clearance level let me see and hear lots of things...

I built a mini-version, I reckon he got jealous. You know how it goes, crooked pollie sees me roll by in my SUV, up to my posh driveway. And he thinks, eisch, "i dimand that one!" of course it's your and my fault, it was the colonial, imperialist chacharag pigs that taught indigent inhabitants to get up off their flea-infested asses and go into business for commercial success. (Known as capitalism)

This evil wit ou's curse is not found in the Pedi dictionary, so therefore does not exist. (With apologies to Juju, but not HEOJJ!) No dear, I worked 12-15 hours a day, 7 days a week to afford my butler, and I accept full responsibility for hiring him! Therefore I will never be a Saffer pollie! :ilikeit:

[heidim]

Sorry Surferman, what a stupid question to ask.

Of course it's ONLY people working in Government that could/can afford a butler.

With the exception of you of course....

[SurferMan]

Ya,

And dont you forget it! LOL. One day when I'm big maybe I will have one here in Aus, his name will be...Surferman!

[SurferMan]

Has everyone calmed down now? Lol

Who's turn is it next?

[Bigvan07]

It amazes me to see how many threads on here goes in the direction of Surferman's butler..

[funtobeaussiechick]

Did anyone see the murder number for SA per day is 47. Guess its constant, Still quite a lot

[DeepFriedMatt]

Latest crime stats that came out today

http://m.ewn.co.za/2014/09/19/sa-crime-stats-murder-on-the-increase

The increases in burglaries and armed robberies are shocking.

[SurferMan]

Still a very nasty place to try and live in. Funtobeaussiechick, it's a lot higher than that. I know some senior cops and what they do is classify as many unlawful deaths as "other" or a similar category to bring the numbers down. They do the same for home invasions and farm murders to try BS the public. There is actually a group of stats people whose job it is to fudge the numbers....

[Johnno]

Yeah sorry if it came over a bit harshly (and more importantly, sorry if I directed that comment at the wrong person) but it's just a general theme I am noticing. Nobody knows for sure what race is at most risk of being murdered in RSA, but that actually isn't relevant. What matters is that all people there are at a higher risk of being murdered than in Australia.

And that is why if anyone cared to read my post carefully including the disclaimer and have the decency to quote me in full you will see that I stated that the crime situation in SA is unacceptable and indefensible. What I was doing is pointing out facts, facts of the WC which was collected from mortuaries (not SAP crime stats) as the mortuary details do include race and type of injury that caused death. Not my facts, not my research so don't shoot the messenger.

I don't know where anyone reads that by putting these facts out there that white people do not get murdered, that's not what the facts say. They merely point out that crime is across all races, but certain races and hence demographics experience higher levels of crime.

But then you can subscribe to one if the extreme rightwing websites and get a completely warped and skewed view on which to base your views on murder stats.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Johnno