Australians: the people, and the people who don't like them

[mistermoose]

I heard some time ago from a forumite who was leaving Australia for the UK because of how much they disliked Australians. Yesterday, we read Desertroseas's thoughts (Australians are "rough, tough, backwards") and today Bronwyn&Co agreed.

Why is there this shared opinion of Australian people? IS this the general case? ARE most Australians you meet really "rough, tough and backwards"? If so, how and why are so many people choosing to live in this country with all these people? Are they just ignoring the general population or living in ignorant bliss? Or are people judging unfairly?

For those in Australia already, please share your thoughts honestly about this please. It's something I haven't had to give much thought to, but it seems to be developing into a common thread between quite a few forumites now.

[DanieR]

There are certainly certain things in Australia that requires adjustments and a changed mindset, but I found the people generally warm and friendly.

I admire the fact that they do not view status, wealth and titles as important as many Saffas tend to do!

I have also witnessed how they reach out to others in times of need. Yes some of them seems a bit rough around the edges, but often you will discover a heart of gold inside!

In some previous replies I pointed out that not everything is rosy in Australia, but I have never felt unwelcome.

[Mara]

Honestly, and I will be stoned for this, I think that often South Africans cannot just walk in and settle in Australia, and due to them feeling unsettled, they tend to find fault with everything around them.

We have been here now just short of 17 years, the Australians I have come across in my daily life, have been great people and for the majority, totally unpretentious! What you see is what you get. They may live in a palace and drive a 20 year old car, or live in a pandok and drive a Porsche. For the most part, they do not really care about keeping up with "Mr Jones", except of course if they are really, really rich! Same as in RSA, you get some crappy people with bad attitudes, but I find them to be in the minority.

In the workplace, we all tend to have a bit of an attitude, and we are known for this, so you very quickly have to learn to curb your "wanting to take over the world" attitude and be humble. Most of all learn to listen, it is not a quality that we are really au fait with. We all come from a background where the one who shouts the most is the one that is heard! Do not take time to tell Aussies how stupid or outdated their systems are, just go with the flow, they do not like people who are "whenwes"!

Be prepared, in most cases, to start a few rungs lower on the ladder than what you had already achieved in RSA. I know that is not fair, but it does give you the opportunity to see how things are done here, and as you already have the knowledge, you can fairly quickly perhaps work your way up and beyond what you already had.

Do not think that Aussies are going to fall over themselves to welcome you into their circle of friends. They already have their circle of friends, from way, way, back. They do not need you, it is you that needs them. Be patient, ask questions, listen to the answers, be polite, thank them for their assistance and if still in doubt, volunteer....a wonderful way to make friends.

Australia is a wonderful place BUT it is not South Africa and never will be (thank goodness).

[HansaPlease]

Oh boy. Here goes.

This is something that has bothered me for a very long time. I've had to hold my tongue with a lot of the "us and them" comments that are made that are cringeworthy.

I often get comments from the peanut gallery back home in SA about what Australians are supposedly like, from people who have never set foot in this country, and the only stereotypes they have to go on is Shane Warne and David Boone.

A lot of South Africans come over with these pre-conceived ideas of what Aussies are like and it's hard to shake. It's easier to blame "the Aussies" if you don't fit in, rather than thinking about the bigger picture.

"Aussies don't like foreigners" - seriously? South Africans don't even like their own countrymen, let alone foreigners! I haven't seen any Aussies burn down houses of people from other countries in Xenophobic mass mobs.

When people talk about Aussies being "rough" what they fail to take into consideration is the total population of South Africa and all it's socio-economic groups and comparing that to the whole Australian population. Instead they compare only their little middle class bubble in the Joburg suburbs to the whole of Aus.

If I had a dollar for every time I've heard "us South Africans are liked because we work hard" I would be rich, and if I had a dollar for every other nation that says the same about themselves, I'd be even richer. This is a self-important myth. There are just as many lazy South Africans as Auatralian ones, and you are not some God-given expert in your field who is going to come over and revolutionise the work-place.

Just like everywhere else, there are nice Aussies, horrible ones, criminals, rough-types, rich types, clever, stupid, well mannered, rude, etc.

People who generalise an entire nation of people really actually need to take a good look at themselves.

I'll admit that I am guilty of similar misconceptions. Italians annoy me, but I've only met a few and only spent a little time in Italy - I'm sure if I moved there I would soon find that just like everywhere else, people vary.

Your nationality does not dictate what sort of person you are.

(Just to clarify, mistermoose, when I say "you" I don't mean you, I mean people who say stupid things like "Ag man, the Aussies are just...")

[Kanniewagnie]

We were in Perth for our LSD trip and we met an Australian family who were staying in the same block of flats as us while visiting their family (they were visiting from some remote WA mining town). Those people were the friendliest bunch you can imagine.

Now I know it cannot be compared with the work place BUT:

Back in SA: Think of your own colleagues, managers / bosses. Now imagine their personalities are being used to 'label' all South African people...

My boss for instance is an arrogant, dominating, self centered &$@!?(}%^¥ and maybe 2 out of the 20 workdays per month one can actually have a conversation where he does not find fault with something. There are many days where his staff is in tears because of the way he talks to people.

Well, if an Australian had to work for him and tell his buddies that all Afrikaans men are like THAT, it will not be an accurate assumption.

So, I like to view people as individuals and want to believe that we must be careful to .... (om nie al die Ozzies oor dieselfde kam te skeer nie)... Maybe someone can translate?

I guess it is easy for me to comment from this side of the waters, but I'll let you know of our Ozzie workplace experience once we're in the position to do just that!!

[OubaasDik]

Don't always agree with you, Hansa, but this time you are spot-on.

[Toitjie]

I think it would depend on your definition and perception of "rough and tough"

For instance, there are lots and lots more tattoos. When we took our kids to school yesterday, tattoos all over the parents. Some South Africans (I know a few) would consider this rough. Some are not able to deal with this and feel out of sorts or maybe threatened. I dont really understand that, but I cannot for the life of me think why a couple of tattoos would bother someone while knowing that at least you will not be murdered or raped by the tattoo bearing person. But having a tattoo is "rough" for some, not so for others. I just dont get why you would leave Australia because of this.

That is just one example though. The rough perception has many other facets from what I have heard. People are different and I think there are a lot of people in South Africa that find it difficult to accept change and don't feel comfortable in an environment that they perceive as different to what they were used to. Just a shot in the dark - but maybe the more conservative people may find change and different cultures more difficult?

Personally, I have met ozzies at work and in shops and a couple of tradies that had to work on the house and all of them were so nice and friendly. I enjoy bantering with them and without fail they notice my accent and ask if Im from South Africa. One guy told me yesterday geesh you are many South Africans, I come across one every day! Another guy said I have the second most sexy accent in the world

As Mara said, the ozzies are unpretentious which I enjoy immensely. I have also started to "not care" so much what others think of me, it's liberating.

I have met more South Africans here that I would not necessarily become friends with, than Ozzies. Some SA's are pretentious, judgmental and a lot of other things that I will not mention. I have had a hard time in the beginning with culture shock from my fellow country men - where I just couldn't believe some of the things said.

I think it's a gross generalisation. One I hear often and which irritates me a lot is "Ozzies are lazy". Geez....just seeing the roads being built in Canberra debunks that myth! There aren't a team of 15 workers, there are only a couple of ozzies but the highway gets built! Can't be from laziness

[Eva]

Australians are like liquorice - you get all sorts.

[HansaPlease]

Don't always agree with you, Hansa, but this time you are spot-on.

What? When have I ever said anything that anybody could possibly disagree with?!

[Bronwyn&Co]

What? When have I ever said anything that anybody could possibly disagree with?!

Too right Hansa! I've never had a fight with you, and I fight with everyone, so you must be a great guy

[Donovan83]

I was going to type up a message but HansaPlease explained it perfectly!

[followmylead]

I come from a fairly sheltered life being a pastors wife and all. Most Aussies are down to earth and nice people. A few are a bit colder and more reserved (but they are like that even with their own countryman). Yes they look a bit rougher. (Tattoos, no make up, piercings etc) than what my normal social circle resemebled. But once you chat to them they are just people. No different to me or my friends. My neighbour is quite a character. He is loud, has tats and earrings and speaks like a sailor, but he is a really nice bloke and he does not mind my prissy look at all ?

[AndreaL]

Bravo HansaPlease

I must buy you a beer one day, you have just articulated exactly how I feel and have wanted to say for sometime. Some of the laziest and backstabbing people in hubbies workplace are South Africans, does that mean all Saffers are? No, but this "Australians love South Africans because they are hard workers" nonsense has to be put to rest. It has nothing to do with nationality but rather the individual, so you find good and bad in all cultures.

One thing I do personally feel is that some of the women work exceptionally hard here, physically, in what one would consider male type occupations.

Another thing, having read this thread and the previous one Mistermoose refers to..................I could be writing this thread as a new migrant to South Africa in the 80's or 90's from the point of view of a Brit encountering South Africans and particularly those from smaller traditionally Afrikaans towns in the old Transvaal. Many British people thought that the men were bullies, the women lazy, the people backward and unsophisticated, the sense of humour infantile......................I could go on, but those of us who remained in South Africa and moved to other places and experienced all of the people of South Africa eventually realised that just as the UK is made up of all manner of people, so is South Africa and so is Australia.

One thing is that Australian people are very straight talking for the most part, what you see is what you get, people don't need to pretend, don't hide their roots or rough backgrounds and are less concerned about how they are viewed socially.

I don't want to fall into the trap of discussions about class, because class perception is a socially constructed observation, it shouldn't matter if you are a postman or a company manager, your worth is defined (in my eyes) by your actions and how you treat other people.

Anyway, without upsetting people, just take a step back as Hansa says and see the big picture.............we all, myself included, tend to generalise.

One final point, I initially bristled at Desertroseas' statement about being forced to be here, but perhaps it is how she truly feels, perhaps as a result of her partners work? So that then is a personal issue that should be discussed. If she is the one working here, then the choice should be obvious.

The people here aren't backward, well no more backward than the Saffers and the Brits and the Yanks.............

[rozellem]

What Hansa said. Maybe we are sheltered in Sydney, but we have not met any/many rough people. And when you meet one you think may be rough, they actually have a couple of degrees behind them or (like the fencer we employed last year) went to a fancy private school. A bit getting used to when your brain is programmed the RSA way.

Rumours like these start off very easily and the back story gets lost. On our recent trip to RSA I heard two classic rumour about Australia. The first came out of my own mothers mouth. I heard her tell someone that Australians are lazy. I know she heard this from a Sydney based Saffa on her last visit here. I had to remind her that he is very stingy and dont want to pay his workers the going rate, the Aussies therefore dont want to work for him, so most of his staff is from China (till they get the language and experience and move on). Not very clever.

The other was a random woman on the beach, who told me how few Christians there are in Australia. She didnt have figures, but she heard it from someone who lives in Aus somewhere. Really? What is it with South Africans who think they have the monopoly on goodness/Godliness. As if those two things can only ever come in a package and the rest of the world are made up of heathens. Having travelled around the world extensively I know you get good/honest people who dont belong to a religion. I have a close friend in Sydney who has no interest in Christianity or any other religion. We planned a visit to the zoo last week and I told her, as our kids turned 4 a month ago, we could just say they are still 3 and get them in for free. I was thinking a few weeks would not be such big a deal. She would not have any of it as she did not want to lie. Made me feel like a bank robber! I cant tell you how many times my extended Christian family have told the kids to move down the seat so they look younger to pay a reduced fee. I have vivid memories of that at the drive in

[DXB2OZ]

Having been a "professional expat" for 14 years, I can honestly say that meeting South African's abroad can come as quite a shock to the system, if you aren't used to us. I also find that every time I go "home", it hits me how hard South Africans have had to become and how much they don't realise it. Whether it is because I am just not used to it, or whether it is becoming more pronounced, I don't know. But I do know that we can be quite a lot to take.

When we did our LSD, Australia was nothing like what we expected. It is so true what other forumites have said - it is not little SA, Sydney is not Jhb, Melbourne is not CT.

Simple tasks like buying phone credit, putting in fuel, getting a tram card all took three times longer than expected. Why? Because I kept on getting into conversations with total strangers who were warm, friendly and welcoming. That reminded me of true South Africa - strip away the hate, fear and bitterness and underneath you have the most marvellous people. That's the bit I believe you need to take with you. Treat your anger and fear as excess baggage and leave it at the airport. But keep the good stuff and take that with you.

[HadEnoughofJuju]

I just have to throw my 3 pennies in here. Hansa, couldn't have said it better myself. I was planning on writing a post about Saffa's experiences in the workplace and how recruiters see South Africans but it seems to fit right in here.

I have been working in the recruitment industry for the last nine months (don't get too excited, I can't find anyone jobs, I just write software) and there seems to be a recurring theme with many of the recruiters I have spoken to over that time. First let me say I have never come across a more inviting and friendly group of people as the Aussie's and they do truly give everyone a fair go. It's not South Africans per-say that they don't like, it's anyone with our attitude they dislike.

You ask what our attitude is. Perception goes both ways, we percieve the Aussies to be rough, tough and backwards when in fact they see it at as being honest, straight forward and uncomplicated. We (South Africans that is) perceive ourselves as hardworking go-getters who just get the job done while the Aussies perceive us as Arrogant, narrow minded individuals that don't consider others opinions. At this stage I am inclined to agree with the Aussie's on this one. Of all the recruiters I have dealt with over the past 9 months, there isn't one that actually likes us Saffa's. We are difficult to deal with, demanding, impatient and hard to please when it comes to finding jobs. I was even told by one recruiter that they have several clients who outright refuse to employ South Africans.

Please, before you throw the first stone, I am merely relaying information and sentiments passed on to me by Aussies in the recruitment industry who deal with thousands of candidates with many different nationalities and backgrounds. We, as a result of our heritage, are a difficult people to deal with but there are times we just need to pull our heads in and blend in.

[SurferMan]

I find almost all the Aussies to be a great bunch. Agree with most all that has been said previously. I'm sure I rub some people up, as they will do me. i have had to learn to tone it waaaay down, and I still get it wrong sometimes, especially in the heat of the moment. Just yesterday my Saffer boss told me to calm down a bit....

I am in the process of unlearning a lot of behaviours I was taught in SA as acceptable:

Loud, proud, push hard, relentless to get the job done, work like an animal, care only for the goal/prize and don't matter who or what gets killed in the process. here, you need to consider others, give all a chance to speak, let others lead etc. Not an easy task if you are me!

I have to say I prefer the less angry, arrogant, violent corporate way of the Aussies to what I experienced in SA. I am happy to just keep adapting, This is my home now, and it was granted to me by Aussies, the least I can do is go local a little in return. .

[OubaasDik]

Nicely said SurferMan. Especially the last sentence.

[Sibella]

Yes unfortunately South Africans tend to place people in categories according to their own background and experiences and then are at a loss when they get here as nothing seems to make sense and many Australians don't fit into any specific categories which then confuses them

You might see someone with lots of tattoos and rough looking (in your opinion) but then they live in a mansion.

You might see someone walking barefoot in the shops but then realize they live on an acreage with horses.

You might meet parents at your child's private school and when your child goes to visit you'll see they live in a small wooden house or the mum works at Aldi / Coles / K-Mart (because their children's education is more important than a fancy house). And usually the mum has a degree as well.

You might meet a housewife with four kids, a chaotic household and a trades person for a husband and then realize that she is actually brilliantly smart and has a doctorate degree in engineering (and is now one of my best friends).

So South Africans throw away all your preconceived ideas because they mean nothing here. Start chatting to people and you will find the salt of the earth, 99% of the time.

[SurferMan]

I also like the fact that I have my life back. I am almost never angry in traffic anymore, I work sane hours! (Except for one SAP project, we worked >110 hours a week) for 3 months! I come in at 7, and leave at 4. No angry glares or being told that as a manager you are expected to put more in without reward. frankly that cr@p is extortion. I like the 40-45 hour work week.

To quote the famous Vodacom ads on dictators, "I have been having it!"

[Donovan83]

I wish I could say the same - I am supposed to work 8:30 to 5, but I find I get comments about working "half day" if I leave at 5. So I still leave at 5, but still.

[SurferMan]

Bummer. In my case I/we worked around 17 weekends in a row before Go-Live, and burnt so many hours HR complained of possible breach/abuse. LOLOL So the whole business knew the hours I/we put in, and after that no-one questioned my hours. Lucky I guess. But yes, I have been where you are Donovan83, and it sucks eggs mate! As in big time.

In SA, I routinely worked 12-14 a day, and weekends. Not anymore. I want to start a movement for a four day week, or even better, a 5 day weekend.

[AndreaL]

HEOJ

Well said, I've found similar comments from Australians on this side too. I suppose project work is a different thing altogether in that one has to put in the hours needed, but most other occupations, clocking off time is clocking off time.

Some great balanced views here..................I also have a sneaky suspicion but no facts to support it, that those of you happiest in the workplace and with life in general in Australia, are the ones who left the ego and emotional baggage at the airport when you arrived and were just determined to give it a good go and be authentic.

I have found time and time again that if you are authentic, the rewards are great.

[mistermoose]

Thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences and thoughts. Rather than hear or read isolated reports, I wanted to hear from a few people who had been there, done it, and lived an integrated life with those who live down under.

[OubaasDik]

Bummer. In my case I/we worked around 17 weekends in a row before Go-Live, and burnt so many hours HR complained of possible breach/abuse. LOLOL So the whole business knew the hours I/we put in, and after that no-one questioned my hours. Lucky I guess. But yes, I have been where you are Donovan83, and it sucks eggs mate! As in big time.

In SA, I routinely worked 12-14 a day, and weekends. Not anymore. I want to start a movement for a four day week, or even better, a 5 day weekend.

Plenty people work a 9 day fortnight - ie get every second Friday off ......