Geloof

[Lourisa]

Ons het al soveel menings gehoor oor ons beluit om te emigreer. Baie opmerkings word gemik teen ons geloof - christenskap. Ons kerk (eks-kerk) glo sterk daaraan dat alles hier in sa ten goede gaan uitwerk, ons moet net almal saam bid en nie weg hardloop nie. Verdere opmerkings strek van :"God het ons met 'n doel hier in sa geplaas" tot "Jy is nie veronderstel om net jou eie gemak in die lewe te soek nie, afrika het opgeleide mense se hulp nodig" tot "God gee aan sy kinders nie 'n gees van vrees nie..."

Maak die feit dat ons emigreer ons nou kleingelowiges? Maak die feit dat ons regtig onveilig voel en bang is, dat ons nie werklik God se kinders is nie? Ek weet nie wat om hiervan te maak nie. Ek glo in God en ek glo ook dat Hy vir ons iets soos common sense gegee het...

Tans woon ons geen kerk by nie omdat mens ook net soveel verwerping en negatiwiteit in hierdie proses kan vat. Ons wil die emigrasie nou maar so stil en gou as moontlik doen. Dankie tog vir 'n forum soos hierdie!

Lourisa

[Bianca S]

hi Lourisa, ons het dieselfde van sommige van ons familie ervaar.

Ons glo solank jy as Christen oorsee gaan en God se werk daar doen is dit reg. Dalk het jy selfs meer vrye tyd en middele daar om meer te kan doen vir God.

Ons mag net nie ons kerkgaan, Christenskap, kinders se sondagskool als in SA los as ons emigreer nie. Dis soms moeilik om die oorgang te maak na 'n ander kerk in die vreemde. Daar is baie ongelowiges en mense wat regtig smag na Jesus, en ons kan God se Boodskap oral oor die wereld uitdra. Wat van mense wat in die eerste plek van Europa gekom het na SA - as gelowiges? God het ons op die AARDE geplaas met 'n doel, en die emigrasie proses is tussen jou en God, jy hoef nie aan mense verslag te doen nie. Ons moet dit net 'n gebedsaak maak.

God het ons keuses gegee, ook die keuse om verantwoordelik op te tree en jou kinders te beskerm teen gevaar en bose magte... Israel het ook ge-emigreer onder verdrukking uit, met die hoop op vryheid. Askies as dit bietjie dramaties klink, maar met die geweld en baie lelike moorde, glo ek daar is soveel bose magte / evil in harte.

Dalk tik ek bietjie deurmekaar, maar wil net laat weet ons verstaan waardeur julle gaan, en ek dink dis 'n moeilike en baie emosionele saak vir so baie mense... sterkte

Bianca

Edited April 14, 2007 by Bianca S

[Lourisa]

Hi Bianca, meer as enige iets het ek jou reply nodig gehad. Net die feit dat daar iemand anders is wat verstaan maak dit reeds beter.

Jy's reg, ons het geen reg om die kinders uit die kerk te hou, ek wou hulle net die pyn van ondeurdagte opmerkings spaar. Ons lees nog Bybel en bid en praat oor God, ons het Hom nie verwerp nie, maar ons kies nou om ons te omring met mense wat ondersteunend is en vir wie ons kan ondersteun. Soos my man reken, hy wil nie in die kerk gaan sit en daar ook nog raas kry nie.

Lourisa

[Sparrow]

Hi Lourisa,

The answer is quite simple really; -It is a matter between you and God.

I agree, God did not give us a spirit of fearfulness but, nobody can tell you what God’s plan is with your life. For it is written in Isaiah 55:8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways” declares the Lord’.

If God wants you to come to Australia he will tell you so. It is as simple as that. You will receive your confirmation through the work of the Holy Spirit.

I find it ironic that some Christians can claim that we are disobedient for leaving South Africa. Jesus himself commanded us to go into the world and proclaim his message. See Matthew 28:19-20 “Therefore go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age”.

All I can say to you is pray and ask for the wisdom of the Holy Spirit. BUT be careful however not to ask with your own desires! -When you pray it should be with the right motives for it is written in James 4:3 “When you ask, you don not receive, because you ask with the wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures”.

If you are wishing to come to Australia for your own pleasure and money, it’s probably not from God.

When you pray, ask yourself the following question: “So where is the glory of God in that?”

Psalm 25:4-5 “Show me your ways, O Lord, teach me your paths; guide me in your truth and teach me, for you are God my Saviour, and my hope is in you all day long”.

I hope it helps. May you find the guidance of the Spirit of Truth.

[kangaroo]

Hi Lourisa

Bianca S het alles klaar so mooi opgesom...wil net vir jou se daar is baie mense in julle situasie.

Ek het ook vriende wat glo ons is in SA geplaas vir 'n rede, dat ons hier 'n verskil moet maak, dat dit nie 'n Christen 'betaam' om vrees te voel nie. Hierdie vriende het my al grys hare gegee!

My opinie is weer dat ons as intelligente wesens geskape is wat deur God gelei word. As jy die skrif aan die muur sien in SA VIR JOU EN JOU FAMILIE PERSOONLIK, dan kan ander mense se waarheid nie jou eie bly nie.

Sommige mense word gelei om te bly - sommige word gelei om te gaan. Moes Israel destyds in Egipte gebly het onder verdrukking en maar geglo het alles is hunky dory terwyl die veiligheid en toekoms van hulle kinders bedreig word?

Ek besef dis ietwat dramaties om Israel/Egipte met SA/Oz te vergelyk, maar hoe 'n mens na God kyk dink ek het alles te doen met hierdie saak. God is orals - nie net in SA nie, nie net in Oz nie.

En ja, Afrika HET opgeleide mense nodig - dis net jammer dat die skills requirement deesdae toenemend kom met 'n velkleur-klassifikasie. Moet jy en jou familie nou bly in SA terwyl julle skills in elk geval (nou of later) tot niet gaan agv hierdie rede?

Ag, daar is nog soveel sulke vrae - op die ou einde is dit 'n erg persoonlike saak - daar is essensieel nie 'n regte of verkeerde antwoord nie, maar die REGTE ANTWOORD VIR JOU/JULLE.

(O, en by the way - die kerk se opmerking dat mens nie hier is om jou eie gemak in die lewe te soek nie, vind ek baie interessant met betrekking tot immigrasie, want immigrasie is by no means 'gemaklik'...om die waarheid te se, in my persoonlike opinie is dit JUIS immigrasie wat die moeilike/ongemaklike uitweg is, want mens los alles wat jy opgebou het tot dusver/alles wat lief en dierbaar is, agter.)

[Lourisa]

Dear Sparrow, than you so much for your reply. All you say is so true, but the fact remains, we are leaving out of fear for our son's - and our own- future. The coin dropped for us a few weeks ago when something horrible happened in our community. So we are leaving out of fear, to say we are leaving because God told us to, will be a lie. We don't care about money or earthly possesions, we do care about africa and all in need here, I worked with street children for two years and know the need, but now it's time for my own children to become my priority. Hope this doesn't soun awfull.

Lourisa

[Dax]

Maak die feit dat ons emigreer ons nou kleingelowiges? Maak die feit dat ons regtig onveilig voel en bang is, dat ons nie werklik God se kinders is nie? Ek weet nie wat om hiervan te maak nie. Ek glo in God en ek glo ook dat Hy vir ons iets soos common sense gegee het...

Lourisa

Geen mens wat werklik kleingelowig is sal die moed he om te emmigreer nie. Moet ook nie bodder oor wat ander vir jou se nie.

As julle in julle harte-van-harte voel did reg dat julle migreer dan is julle saak reg.

Ek wil nie dogmaties klink nie, maar myns insiens het God dalk die migrasie ding in julle lewens ingebring. Wie weet watter planne Hy vir julle in die toekoms het.

WErk die saak uit met julle harte maar ook julle "common sense" Bid daaroor, en ek glo God sal vir julle deure oopmaak en 'n lig gee vir julle pad.

Groete,

Dax

[Lourisa]

(O, en by the way - die kerk se opmerking dat mens nie hier is om jou eie gemak in die lewe te soek nie, vind ek baie interessant met betrekking tot immigrasie, want immigrasie is by no means 'gemaklik'...om die waarheid te se, in my persoonlike opinie is dit JUIS immigrasie wat die moeilike/ongemaklike uitweg is, want mens los alles wat jy opgebou het tot dusver/alles wat lief en dierbaar is, agter.)

Danie kangaroo! Ek het ook nogal gedink emigrasie is nie vir sissies nie, erg traumaties. Ek dink die bottom line is dan soos meeste van julle reken: dis 'n persoonlike saak tussen jou en God. Ek sal dit dus so aanvaar en my nie meer steur aan onnodige opmerkings nie.

Geen mens wat werklik kleingelowig is sal die moed he om te emmigreer nie. Moet ook nie bodder oor wat ander vir jou se nie.

As julle in julle harte-van-harte voel did reg dat julle migreer dan is julle saak reg.

Ek wil nie dogmaties klink nie, maar myns insiens het God dalk die migrasie ding in julle lewens ingebring. Wie weet watter planne Hy vir julle in die toekoms het.

WErk die saak uit met julle harte maar ook julle "common sense" Bid daaroor, en ek glo God sal vir julle deure oopmaak en 'n lig gee vir julle pad.

Groete,

Dax

Die mense op hierdie forum is amazing! Dankie vir die reply, ek voel tonne beter. Van alles wat ons moes deurmaak met die emigrasie tot dusver, was die geloof-ding die moeilikste - of eerder die opmerkings daaroor, maar nie meer.

Dankie vir belangstelling.

Lourisa

Edited April 14, 2007 by Lourisa

[kangaroo]

Groot plesier, Lourisa

'n Topic wat baie goed hierby aansluit en wat voorheen op die forum bespreek was, is: Christenskap in Oz

Lees AL die posts op die thread (2 bladsye) - dit sal jou 'n geheelbeeld gee.

Daar is TALLE kerke in Australie - in meeste van die stede is daar selfs Afrikaanse dienste een maal 'n week of een keer in twee weke! Die Engelse kerke is ook fenominaal - Hillsong in Sydney is al 'n legende op sy eie, maar daar is soveel ander ook orals in Australie...te veel om te noem.

Hou aan vra vir leiding...The Big Man Upstairs luister, Hy dra julle en sal julle nie in die steek laat nie!

Edited April 14, 2007 by kangaroo

[Sparrow]

Well, Lourisa God may wish to use you in Australia, or maybe somewhere else. Who knows? Ask God.

No doubt you experienced a very traumatic event. You have my dearest sympathy and I pray that you receive God’s comfort. I do however suggest you take some time to reflect and seek His guidance.

Jude 17-23 “But dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, “In the last time there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires”. These are the men that divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit”. But you, dear friends, build yourself up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. Keep yourself in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life. Be careful to those who doubt; snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear – hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh”.

[Dedré]

Lourisa,

I found in life the people hitting the hardest are some Christians. And those are the most difficult to forgive. Fact is, we are ALL different as it was decided by God. Therefore we all have different reasoning for different times for different purposes of God. Therefore, ALL said could be true for you or not. And honest prayer (as said by others) will give you the piece of mind that God wants you to have.

I could read from your post, some cliches has left scars already. My heart goes out to you, because this morning I was "trying to convince God, once again, why it is SO IMPORTANT AND OK, to let me and my husband immigrate... and then I read your post... and for some Reason (note spelled with a capital R) I remembered something that Rick Warren wrote in his book: "The Purpose Driven Life". I would like to share that with you (and myself once again) because this is how God might look at this, and maybe that will give you peace. Please read the book! It is stunning!

Out of Chapter 9. You get the title: What makes God Smile:(one of our true purposes in life)

1.) God smiles when we love Him supremely.

2.) God smiles when we trust Him completely.

3.) God smiles when we obey Him wholeheartedly.

4.) God smiles when we praise and thank Him continually.

5.) God smiles when we use our abilities ... (brains, heart, education, personality, money, bodies...etc.)

The last one fits in most to what you fear. And confirms what others said here. What struck me was what he wrote under point 5 (a short summary): God loves to watch (as it gives Him pleasure) and see how you decide to use YOU (the created you) to make Him smile. You can't use all of your abilities if you are not allowed or fearful to do so (like in SA). And therefore I don't see that it is wrong to want to enjoy what you were created to do... be a blessing to others by being a WHOLE you as God wants us to be! Not a forced limited you!

Remember, (as someone else said earlier) Yes, fear is not from God, but be sure, because you are His, He WILL darn right use it for His purpose! And then you just think of Moses!

For other examples of great moves:

Lots of prophets fled, God nurtured them at the place where they were hiding, and sent them back.

Noah was sent on a boat... he had to live on water for a very loooong time... who knows if he ended up at the same spot?

David was warned numerous times to move. - because of safety!

Paul had to move a few times - because of safety!

Joseph and Mary was ORDERD to move! - because it was unsafe!

My point:? God created the whole EARTH for MANKIND! Not only parts of it for some of us! Don't you think he would love you to enjoy His WHOLE creation? He placed YOU in charge of ALL of it, not parts of it! Those people deciding for you how you should look at this, probably never see God as a GIVING God, who created the WORLD for MANKIND! ENJOY THE WHOLE EARTH, because one day you will be leaving it, and you wouldn't have even seen and experienced half of it... a rather dull, boxed-in fenced life that God did not intend! So look at it as a present you have received AGES ago from your Favorite in the whole wide world ever... AND OPEN IT! It's YOURS too! And have a good cry because you never realised it!

Hope this helped. If it was not for you, I accept.

Edited April 14, 2007 by Dedré

[Bianca S]

Dedré, THANKS for a wonderful post....

I forgot that bit of Purpose Driven Life, have to read the book again - its a wonderful journey.

Thanks

[Sam]

Lourisa, jy kan ware inspirasie en rigting find in die boekie The Dreamgiver van Bruce Wilkinson. Ons het die DVD gekoop. Die kennis daaruit het ons rigting gegee, gehelp om uit ons comfort zone te kruip, dit het ons geleer hoe om teenkanting van mense en moeilike omstandihede te hanteer en om oe op die Meester te hou in tye wanneer alles tevergeefs lyk. Dit het ons gehelp om geloof en vertroue te kweek en sodoende die droom vandag te kan beleef. Dit was nie net 'n handleiding tot persoonlike groei nie maar ook een vir emigrasie. Dit was 'n seening in ons lewe en ek hoop dit kan vir julle dieselfde beteken.

Sterkte daar,

Sunflower

[Sparrow]

Dedre, ‘Love your post. ‘Couldn’t have said it better!

I can definitely say that immigration has strengthened my personal relationship with God. I am sure many other forumites will testify the same. It really is a test of faith!

[Lourisa]

The last one fits in most to what you fear. And confirms what others said here. What struck me was what he wrote under point 5 (a short summary): God loves to watch (as it gives Him pleasure) and see how you decide to use YOU (the created you) to make Him smile. You can't use all of your abilities if you are not allowed or fearful to do so (like in SA). And therefore I don't see that it is wrong to want to enjoy what you were created to do... be a blessing to others by being a WHOLE you as God wants us to be! Not a forced limited you!

Dedre, words can't even express how much your reply meant to me - and I think to others too. Thank you so much.

Blessings,

Lourisa

[Dedré]

Lourisa, Sparrow & Bianca,

Thank you guys for the kind words. It's nice to remind myself by times as well. This is how wee keep each other going. Nice to know some of you read the book too! Can we chat about this book on the forum on this thread, or do we have to start a new one?

Sunflower,

I have always wanted to read The Dreamgiver. I think I'm going to buy it next time I'm in the shops! Hope it is still available.

Chat to you guys soon,

Blessings,

Me!

Edited April 15, 2007 by Dedré

[Sam]

Hi Dedré, I've sent you a PM.

[Lourisa]

Will order both books from Kalahari and would love for this discussion to continue - it's already been such a blessing, I'm sure it will continue to be so for many people in the same position.

Lovies,

Lourisa

[Bianca S]

hi, could one of the moderators maybe move this thread to Spiritual life, just so that it doesn't get deleted in a while...? This could mean a lot to many people struggling with same questions.

thanks

Edited April 15, 2007 by Bianca S

[Ungerers (Tanja U)]

hi, could one of the moderators maybe move this thread to Spiritual life, just so that it doesn't get deleted in a while...? This could mean a lot to many people struggling with same questions.

thanks

Hi Lourisa,

Ons is ook oppad Oz toe en dit is vir ons ook 'n saak van gebed. My grootste opgewondenheid is dat wanneer ek daar gaan wees, gaan ek nie werk nie en gaan meer tyd vir my Bybelstudie en godsdiens he.

Ek wil by die kerk se uitreik groep aansluit en my kinders by die kerk se speelgroep laat inskakel.

Vir die eerste keer in my lewe gaan ek my Christenskap en my kinders bo die gejaag na geld en weelde en afbetalings van rekeninge stel en dit se vir my dat om Oz toe te gaan die regte besluit is.

Ek is so bly dat hier baie christene op die forum is want ek het al gewonder of n mens daar 'n suid afrikaanse selgroep kan begin om mekaar te kan ondersteun met die settling in en met allerdaagse support veral omdat ons weg is van ons families af.

Laat weet my as daar mense is wat belang stel of as daar klaar so iets is, ons gaan in Melbourne bly.

Christus Groete

Tanja

[Sparrow]

Hi Tanja,

We are in Melboune. We go to Care Force Church in Mount Evelyn. See www.careforce.org

We also have a home church group. I have send you a PM

[sandy]

Hi, my husband and I recently did a LSD trip to Adelaide from England. We have also been praying for guidance and wanting to do the Lord's will in all this and not live for our own selfish desires! While we were there we met a Christian guy and got chatting explianing our anxiety about not wanting to just go our own way...he said:'It doesn't matter where you live as long as you are working for the Kingdom.'

I found that really comforting and true.

Also the verse:'Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In ALL your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct your paths.'

The fact that you are seeking His will on this shows you are acknowledging Him. The Lord does use umcomfortable situations to move us on and He is sowing christians from SA across the world. He is never static, always dynamic and doing something new!

Moving to a new country moves you out of your comfort zone and my faith and relationship with the Lord has grown in ways I never imagined it could. It will hurt too though!!!

Sterkte!

Sandy

[Yankeedoodle]

Daar is dae dat ek dankie sê vir die omstandighede in Suid Afrika. Daarsonder sou ek dit nie eers oorweeg het om te trek nie. Die Here ken ons beter as wat ons onsself ken en alhoewel Hy nie die sleg in SA goedkeur nie, weet ek Hy het dit gebruik om ons uit ons comfort-zones te kry. Ek wil aansluit by Dedre se post dat selfs die vroeë kerk vervolg is sodat hulle die evangelie aan die wêreld kon verkondig. Wie van ons sou ooit oorweeg het om te trek as dit altyd goed gegaan het? Ek kan soos baie ander getuig dat 'n mens se geestelike lewe met rasse skrede vooruitgaan omdat 'n mens die Here met die detail van jou lewe vertrou. Wat ander mense sê raak heeltemal irrelevant.

[Sparrow]

Yankeedoodle, dit is hoekom ek se ‘n mens moet dit eers met God bespreek. Indien jy sekerheid het dat jou skuif volgens Sy wil is, dan maak dit nie saak wat ander mense se nie en is jy ook automaties meer vasberade om ‘n suksess daarvan te maak. God is ons krag.

Ek hou egter nogsteeds vol dat jou motiewe moet reg wees. Daar moet glorie vir God daarin wees. Soos Dedre se, God moet “smile”! In dieselfde asem sal ek ook se dat indien dit God se plan is dat jy in Suid-Afrika moet bly, dan moet jy bly. Daar is werk vir jou. Onthou, Christus het vir ons gese ons moet ons kruis opneem en hom volg (Lukas 9:23-26). Om ‘n Christen te wees is dus nie maklik nie!

Edited April 17, 2007 by Sparrow

[Dedré]

Lourisa,

Let us know when you're starting to read, and we'll chat about it! My husband will start now as well. So I'll have 2 people's opinions to share! Nice!!!

Sunflower,

I got The Dreamgiver! Will start tonight! So we can start chatting!

dx