Autism, ADHD, OCD, SPD & all those other acronyms

[McCabes]

I hear what you're saying and I think there could be a need for a vaccine in those circumstances, but I can't help thinking we have an immune system for a reason. How good can it be to start depending on vaccines to do all the work and protect us from every cold and flu and ear and throat or chest infection..? And I do get that for a lot of people, the vaccine is literally life-saving, but in the long term, as humans, can we keep going in this direction?

Weird that unvacced moms pass on more immunity for longer?!

Thought you might find this interesting. It's not directly about vaccines, but if they're doing this with all the other meds, you have to wonder. It's written by a qualified Dr and psychiatrist who writes for the guardian so this isn't just some quack looking for attention...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_Pharma

[AndreaL]

O.K I recently, as part of a uni subject ( Science, technology and Society) had to look at research and funding, the fact is that funding money is very scarce to get unless you have some sort of 'headline type material" in your research proposal. If I want to study Central Queensland butterflies, very few people or companies will fund me, if I want to study "the effects of climate change on CQ butterflies" I will get more interest, If I want to study " the effects of CSG and other mining related pollutants and their impacts on CQ butterflies" I may attract funding from unions, anti-mining corporations or even the mining and gas companies themselves as a public relations exercise..............providing the data works for me.

Pharmaceutical companies have big money and do fund many studies, particularly those that are to do with new drugs. What might happen is that there may be a manipulation, or rather a habit of cherry-picking the statistics that are fed to the public, meantime the full document may end up in an obsolete journal somewhere.

This is also the trick of the anti-vaccine brigade too, I've found that they will use parts of a document to promote an idea, usually something that will scare the public and that you have to dig deep to find the entire study and the context of the statistic, and it is often a minute percentage of the entire study.

Ben Goldacre isn't anti-science, he is anti-bad science "Pulling bad science apart is the best teaching gimmick I know for explaining how good science works".

Each week, Ben Goldacre skewers the enemies of reason.
If you're a journalist who misrepresents science for the sake of a headline, a politician more interested in spin than evidence, or an advertiser who loves pictures of molecules in little white coats, then beware: your days are numbered.

"Alternative therapists don't kill many people, but they do make a great teaching tool for the basics of evidence-based medicine, because their efforts to distort science are so extreme. When they pervert the activities of people who should know better – medicines regulators, or universities – it throws sharp relief onto the role of science and evidence in culture."

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/nov/04/bad-science-eight-years

This article talks about the first measles death recorded in 14 years in the UK and the fact that WHO promotes a 95% vaccination rate to guarantee "herd immunity" The article is from 2006, so I am not sure where we find ourselves now, but measles cases are increasing as vaccination rates decrease.

I'll try and find the stats for mortality rates of childhood diseases pre-mass vaccination campaigns.

"The media's MMR shame

Skewed reporting has helped to create a panicky climate in which measles could make a comeback"

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/jun/16/whenjournalismkills

[AndreaL]

The World Health Organization (WHO) estimates that vaccines prevented 2 million childhood deaths in 2003.............Most vaccines are given to children under the age of five, when they haven't yet had time to develop a strong immune system and are most vulnerable to infections

I'll just dot point some stats and provide the links.

• Every year, an estimated three to five million people around the world suffer from a severe form of the flu. Worse, 250,000 to 500,000 of them will die -- and those are just the estimates for industrialized countries [source: WHO].The influenza vaccine prevents an estimated 70 to 90 percent of flu infections
• Hepatitis B is a virus that causes serious liver disease. In some people, hepatitis B virus (HBV) infections are mild, and even in more severe cases the body's immune system is able to fight it off. In others, the infection can become chronic, leading to liver cancer, liver scarring (cirrhosis) and liver failure. HBV is also highly contagious, and there is no cure. It can be prevented with a vaccine, introduced to the world in 1982. Since its introduction, Hepatitis B vaccinations have reduced infections by an estimated 75 percent [source: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention].
• Tuberculosis (TB) is a contagious lung infection. A TB vaccine, the BCG or Bacille Calmette-Guérin vaccine, was developed in the 1920s. Since then, however, it's lost its effectiveness against the disease. Today, the vaccine is used only in areas of the world where TB infections are prevalent......( This also shows that RNA retroviruses mutate and new vaccinations need to be engineered)
• Typhoid fever:Although it's highly preventable, it continues to be a prevalent disease around the world. Infections in the U.S. are often contracted abroad -- the disease affects an estimated 21.5 million people living in developing countries [source: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention]. An estimated 30 percent of people who become infected die from the bacteria, but take note: Typhoid can be treated with antibiotics, and it can be prevented by boiling water, thoroughly cooking all foods and being vaccinated.
• Despite the vaccine, outbreaks of pertussis continue in the U.S. What's going on? Pertussis is a tricky disease to vaccinate against because the old vaccines sometimes caused side effects in a small percentage of people. The old vaccine, DTP, has since been replaced with a new version, DTaP, and side effects have been significantly reduced. DTP is still used around the world to vaccinate children with great success -- a series of three to four doses of DTP can help prevent pertussis 80 to 85 percent of the time [source: Immunization Action Coalition].
• Rotavirus is responsible for a half a million deaths every year and millions of hospitalizations. It's estimated that by the age of five, almost every child worldwide will suffer from a rotavirus infection. There's no cure for rotavirus, and treatment usually consists of fluids and allowing the disease to run its course, which takes about three to eight days. In 2006, however, a vaccine to prevent rotavirus was introduced to the world. Studies have since shown that it prevents infections in roughly 85 to 98 percent of immunized children

Measles, mumps and rubella (also known as German measles) are all deadly viral diseases that were once common illnesses. Without immunization, serious cases of these diseases can lead to grave complications. Measles, for example, can cause pneumonia, seizures, brain damage and death. Mumps can turn deadly, as well, and can cause deafness, secondary infections and swollen ovaries or testicles. A pregnant woman exposed to rubella has an increased risk of miscarriage, and the fetus has an increased risk of developing birth defects.

One shot of the MMR (measles, mumps, rubella) vaccine, which is a trivalent vaccine, is effective 95 percent of the time, and a second dose is given to boost that number to 100 percent. Worldwide, between 2000 and 2008, deaths from measles infections dropped by 77 percent [source: Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation].

MMR and Autism

In the late 1990s, a study based on 12 children linked the measles, mumps and rubella vaccination with autism, leading to a drop in the number of parents having their children immunized. While it's still being studied, research hasn't been able to provide any evidence to link the vaccine with autism.

• Polio is a virus that can cause permanent paralysis, and among those stricken with paralysis, about 5 to 10 percent will die from respiratory paralysis complications [source: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention]. When the polio vaccine was introduced in the U.S. in 1955, it quickly made a big impact. Infections dropped from about 20,000 a year in the '50s to just 10 in 1979 [source: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention]. Today, polio has been eradicated from the Western hemisphere as well as the European and Western Pacific areas of the world.............(For me the polio vaccine is one of the greatest benefits to humankind ever, as a child I can remember people who had contracted polio having to walk with callipers on their legs.
• (Another great vaccination story)

  Smallpox has been around since, well, we're not sure when. It's been dated possibly back as far as 10,000 B.C., killing populations around the world in epidemic after epidemic. There's no cure for smallpox, and the virus that causes it, the variola virus, kills about 30 percent of the people it infects. It can disfigure, scar and blind those who survive.

  There is good news, though. Worldwide smallpox eradication was declared in 1980, all due to the success of the smallpox vaccine and global immunization efforts. In 1972, Americans were no longer vaccinated against the virus, and by 1986, no countries continued to immunize against smallpox.

http://dsc.discovery.com/tv-shows/curiosity/topics/10-vaccines-that-changed-world.htm

Regardless, I also have concerns, if we come up with a vaccine for every illness, are we at risk of over-vaccinating ourselves? It almost feels as if you have to be a gambler to make a decision......weighing up the risk of death/disability vs weighing up the risk of death/disability..................

O.K. visual representation puts things into perspective in a way that words can't

[AndreaL]

Sorry, forgot to add the link http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewherper/2013/02/19/a-graphic-that-drives-home-how-vaccines-have-changed-our-world/

Let's be fair, there are numbers of people that do contract the illnesses above and overcome them, build natural immunity and are fine, some people contract them and are left with disabilities.

The varicella figures are amazing ( I required a lot of persuasion to have my youngest immunised, as when I was a kid and one child got chickenpox, the other kids were often purposefully exposed so as to have it "all out of the way at one time", however the varicella figures include HPV.

Breaking down chickenpox figures further "Prior to the introduction of vaccine in 1995 in the USA (released in 1988 in Japan & Korea), there were around 4,000,000 cases per year in the US, mostly children, with typically 10,500–13,000 hospital admissions (range, 8,000–18,000), and 100–150 deaths each year.^[1][2] Though mostly children caught it, the majority of deaths (by as much as 80%) were among adults"...............................150 deaths doesn't seem a lot when 4 million contract the disease, the number of hospital admissions is worrying and I would like to see stats for full recovery rates, but "Ten years after the vaccine was recommended in the US, the CDC reported as much as a 90% drop in chicken pox cases, a varicella-related hospital admission decline of 71%^[1] and a 97% drop in chicken pox deaths among those under 20", means far fewer of both.

I've just realised that I am actually very pro-vaccination, but that does not mean that I would simply accept the data at face value. I am enough of a cynic to want to do my own research of both sides of the issue and then make an informed choice, so I still believe that parents have the right to choose.

It is a huge issue isn't it, would I feel the same if I suspected that vaccination had injured my child?.

I'm not sure if and when we will find the cause of autism...........if it ever does prove to be related to vaccination, I'm not sure that I would be anti-vaccination, but like you, would want some sort of risk analysis based on the individual. I suppose it all boils down to money.

I think this is one instance where we may be forgiven for going

[Mikej]

The reason un-vaccinated children hardly ever get any of the diseases we vaccinate for is because of the great majority who do vaccinate and in so doing limit the movement of the disease across the population. In other words the the un-vaccinated minority are not exposed to the various diseases because they are buffered from them by the majority vaccinated population. If we stopped vaccinating these diseases would overwhelm the world.

Currently polio is endemic in only 4 countries, Nigeria, Afghanistan, India and Pakistan and the only reason is that there is resistance to the vaccine in those countries. This example is evidence that these diseases occur where there is no immunisation program so the idea that you have greater immuity because you are not immunised is rubbish.

People not vaccinating are doing so in the face of one of the most effective and beneficial medical concepts in the world's history.

Edited December 1, 2013 by Mikej

[AndreaL]

Mike J

Some people are convinced that vaccination is responsible for their child's autism................add to that the information spread by the anti-vaccination brigade. often celebrity endorsed

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/115551/jenny-mccarthy-anti-vaccination-movement-blame-whooping-cough

and parents get scared and confused.

The irony is that it is often the better educated parents who are anti-vaccination.

Look I get your point, but calling conscientious objectors ignorant is a little extreme. The only way to get the message across, is by highlighting the facts and the science and moving away from emotive language

[Mikej]

AndreaL you are right thanks for calling me out, I have deleted the extreme language.

I am fully aware of the autism argument and there is of course no evidence linking vaccinations to autism, all the autism accusations are anecdotal and I have an anecdote of my own. A family member back in SA and her husband are opposed to vaccination and did not have their children immunised and their daughter is autistic.

[AndreaL]

Thanks Mike, I also know people whose children are not vaccinated and have autism, I'm cautiously supporting the genetic hypothesis until science gives us more evidence. The problem is that babies don't do a lot, so it is hard to diagnose autism until a child is a certain age or has not reached milestones, who knows, brain development is ongoing so there is nothing to say that some pre=programmed response occurs at a specific stage of development.

My own anecdotal belief is that when you find out that something is wrong with your child you look for answers and reasons..................I recently read a very interesting article that suggested we have a selective memory when we do this and will often pinpoint vaccination as the moment when things changed. This could be because as you know, your child can become sick when vaccinated and this tends to stick in your mind.................and because we seek to make sense of things we tend to make events fit our theory.

I have a friend whose 8 year old had just been diagnosed with tourettes, she is convinced that putting him on a restrictive diet will cure him...............she is a science major and headmistress and seems to have lost objectivity.............I understand this as this is her child.

I personally think he will grow out of his tics in the next year or so, but don't understand her pre-occupation with the diet.....is it because it is something she can physically do?

If he does grow out of his tics, will she credit the diet and not the fact that it may be a developmental issue.

I know you are a father, but I am sure you know that we mothers will often try anything (including snakeoil) when it is our child.

[DXB2OZ]

I have been told that my son's dietary preferences are symptomatic of his condition, not the other way around. He is incredibly smart (so much so that he has achieved a top reading level, while hiding dyslexia), but his writing is years behind and he battles with social interaction. We have been through the whole gambit from ADHD to Aspergers with dysgraphia to the latest of Social Communication Disorder with aspects of ADHD and dyslexia. Unfortunately it is very difficult to pigeon hole into one convenient box.

I agree that society is often too quick to pin labels and assign blame, unfortunately sometimes this leads a reluctance to diagnose when a diagnosis is very clearly required. I love my son to pieces, but there are many things he battles with, things that I am not equipped to help with. Without a "label", we are floundering alone. With that label, we can get pointed in the right direction.

As he is fairly young, I have kept some (ok, most) of the details from him. He is also smart enough to try and use it as an excuse. But when I told him about the dyslexia, he was chuffed to pieces. To know that it isn't him, his brain is just wired differently, is a relief.

We had his latest assessment done just before the medicals and included a copy of the report with the pack to the doctor. What the impact will be, I don't know. If we are successful, I will need to start researching the assistance provided by the schools. But from all I have heard (and is commented on in this thread), the Australian education system is a blessing for these special children who have slightly different requirements. The list of Nobel prize winners with some of these conditions clearly indicates the potential in these children.

Fingers crossed.

[AndreaL]

Now that does make sense DXB2OZ. I don't know how it is in RSA these days, but have personally found the teachers here fairly well equipped to pick up on ASD traits and talk to parents and undertake training to help ASD kids learn to their full potential.

It is quite fascinating how many ASD kids have above average intelligence and seem to be wired slightly differently in the brain ( I wish we understood more about the brain). I'm so glad that dyslexia is recognised more frequently these days.................back when I was young ( or as my kids quip, before electricity) kids were often called lazy or stupid, kids with ADHD were labelled naughty or even delinquent.

A few years ago I witnessed something that really made me appreciate teachers here. There was a new girl in my daughters class, she was very artistic and gifted musically. she had come from a Steiner school ( I don't know too much about them) but the teacher picked up that she was hardly able to read and spoke to the parent ( the child was so bright that she had managed to slip under the radar thus far). Testing revealed that she firstly needed glasses and was also dyslexic, the teacher then got those see through coloured overlays to put across the written word ( tinted lenses or overlays help with Irlen syndrome)..............I was witness to being able to watch this lovely young girl realise she was not slow and watch her fall in love with reading, it was still hard for her, but a simple coloured overlay opened up a new world to her.

What an amazing teacher

[AndreR]

But from all I have heard (and is commented on in this thread), the Australian education system is a blessing for these special children who have slightly different requirements. The list of Nobel prize winners with some of these conditions clearly indicates the potential in these children.

Fingers crossed.

I have a South African friend(here in Sydney) who's daughter has gradually gone blind over the years. She is now 15 but still in a normal public school. The assistance that she has received from the school is incredible and she is treated with the same respect as anyone else. Despite her blindness, she is an incredibly positive and "normal as can be" 15 year old.

Here at my work there is a guy who has cerebral palsy, and I'm ashamed to say that my perceptions were that someone like him wouldn't be able to function in a normal work environment. Wow, how wrong could I be. This guy is incredibly smart and good at his job. I have just never in my life had the opportunity to interact with someone with his condition, and I don't know if he would be given the same opportunities in South Africa.

The Australians have this attitude that anyone deserves a fair go, and its very evident.

[McCabes]

... this is kind of why I try not to tell our story.

I'm glad for all of you for whom this is an easy thing, a simple decision, one you don't even really think about, you just do. Ours is a "mild" case, but do you have any idea what it's like to watch your very bright child battle at school, and then find out it could be due to the vaccinations he had? No, there's no proven link. Except in 2 court cases where other pre-existing conditions were also involved. What I'm saying is I really believe our family has that genetic something that can be triggered. Until someone can offer me a way to see if that is true or not, I'm afraid I'm not willing to use my three beautiful, if quirky, kids as guinea pigs. This is not easy for me, and coming back to read all this doesn't make it any easier. I'm not going around telling people OH MY WORD don't vaccinate!!! PANIC!!! BEWARE!!! I don't do that, because I think it's up to parents to make their own decision. I wish I was given the same consideration.

Thanks for trying to balance it out, Andrea, but I think it's time for a Mod to close this topic. It's not going anywhere. I guess I haven't learnt the lesson yet of not sharing some things in public.

Edited December 4, 2013 by McCabes

[RYLC]

Apparently the criteria for autism is being tightened up in Australia and kids who were considered autistic may no longer be classified as such.

There is a book called Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders or DSM-IV that has changed the criteria for autism spectrum disorders.

I found this on another forum I visit. Parents are concerned that their previously "autistic" child will no longer receive funding for extra school support because they are no longer considered to be autistic.

From a migrants point of view this might mean that your previously "autistic" child can no longer be classified as autistic and the barrier to your family being able to migrate will be gone. Worth checking out.

[AndreaL]

For those interested in the DSM diagnostic http://www.autismspeaks.org/what-autism/diagnosis/dsm-5-diagnostic-criteria

However, I'm critical of a world where we turn perfectly normal developmental behaviour into mental health conditions, as in the case of bed wetting (Enuresis).

http://www.psychtreatment.com/mental_health_enuresis.htm