Autism, ADHD, OCD, SPD & all those other acronyms

[McCabes]

Hi all,

I've been trying to work this out and just want to confirm.

My son has SPD (sensory processing disorder, new name for sensory integration disorder as SID was getting confused with sudden infant death syndrome).

It's currently classified on the fringe/spectrum of autism, as 80% of kids with autism also have sensory integrations issues, and some of the behaviours people would typically ascribe to autism actually are caused by this sensory disorder.

So, I'm left wondering if we will be declined a visa (if/when we get there) based on our son having this disorder.

BUT as far as I can see it seems that as long as they determine that you are not going to place too big a burden on medical services and won't cost them more than a certain amount for the next few years, that they won't decline outright?

Am I understanding this correctly?

My son is currently in grade 1 in a normal former model C school. He has OT on average every second week now. He has improved amazingly this year. He's reading well above grade level and has settled down in class - his grades have come up and his teacher is no longer writing me notes about his behaviour being "unacceptable"

So, to me, I would guess that by the time we get there, he would possibly only need what he has now (at most), or maybe not even as much. They say these kids need OT again during major transisions, so at puberty etc, but otherwise should be ok.

Thoughts? Anyone else been through this recently? I wouldn't personally consider him as being a huge burden on the system, but I'm not sure how they view these kinds of disorders.

Thanks!

[Toitjie]

I don't know, but if I had to venture a guess I would say he would be ok. If I remember correctly there was someone some time ago who'se child has Aspergers which on the autism continuum is more severe than SPD.

Good luck, I really hope you get good news, but in the meantime don't stress too much about it. What will happen will happen, if you worry too much about it now, you will burn yourself out.

[McCabes]

That's a really good point Toitjie!

I guess with the LSd coming up I'm starting to think: what if it's all for nothing? what if we do all this and don't get the visa anyway...

which I'm guessing everyone goes through at some point.

But what you say is true. Est quod est. It is what it is. What will be, will be.

Thanks for that.

[Toitjie]

Worst case scenario - you had a good holiday in a fantastic first world county. But I really don't think it will come to that. I will bet on it that your visa will be granted.

[BellaDee]

Hello all

I am brand new to this forum - its awesome.

I suddenly became guardian to a 15 year old boy in June, after my sister-in-law suddenly passed away. We already had our visa, had sold our business, and were due to take up residence in August, but this event caused us to let the visa expire and we are applying again now. This child has ADHD, ODD, CD, learning difficulties and low cognitive functioning (abilities range from age 8-9). He is also obese (95kg when he came to us in June).

We decided to use an agent for this application as we were concerned about the implications and the potential that my husbands visa would be turned down because of the new dependent child's problems.

We have had discussions with a specialist lawyer in Brisbane, and it seems that the obesity is of more concern than the other problems. We are working on the weight, and fortunately he has lost 10kg in the time he has been with us, and his cholesterol has also come down - still too high but

showing improvement which will be important when the time comes for medicals.

I would say your son will probably be OK, but it may be worth it to make initial enquiries with a good migration agent.

Our path is not going to be easy, but we hope that with the lawyers guidance and experience we will be able to get the visa approved.

Good luck!

[AlBrough]

Have a look at the link below, page 46/47 may be of interest. Page 29 section 27 deals specifically with autism and mental states.

http://www.immi.gov.au/gateways/panel_doctors/conducting_medicals/instructions/panel-doctors-instructions.pdf

[McCabes]

BellaDee - thanks for sharing, that is such a lot to handle - sounds like you are managing really well and hope things go well and everything goes ok with his medicals!

Thanks Broughsan, that was reassuring for the rest of us - I'm actually more concerned now about my 3 year old (4 in April, who weighs 12.4kg and is 92cm tall... she's roughly on the 3rd centile line of the charts the pdf refers to for both weight and height - and they draw the line at 3rd centile. The paed has always just gestured in my direction and said "but mommy's not very big is she?" (I'm about 5'4" - and "tall" in my family!) so I never thought it was anything to worry about. My son also only hits between 10th and 25th centile so I haven't got very large children. Though my youngest hits 50th centile for both so at least I don't have to worry about 2 out of 3 I guess...

arrrgh... thinking way too far down the line again... what will be will be. Que sera... Woosa.

Guess I'll need to stretch 'em and fatten 'em up before we do medicals-if/when we do medicals

[AlBrough]

Pleased it helped. Woosa is the word I have come to understand very well over the last year

[MrandMrsK]

HI McCabes

I have no idea about the implication from the visa point of view, but I am an OT and I would suggest that when you get to the point of submitting medicals etc, you need to include the latest OT report (which will objectively show the changes) and either a neurologist or pediatrician report of his current functioning. Hopefully those reports will diminish the severity of his condition compared to his earlier years. Possibly get the OT to re-do objective testing to show the progress and changes.

I dont know how you can include this, but maybe acknowledge that you will be willing to pay for regular OT or specialist followups as necessary when you are in Australia.

His school reports would also show that he is coping with mainstream schooling (an include anything you have done to allow for this-tutors, classroom assistants, extra classes etc) which would be a big thing- that he may not require special school placement or boarding facilities.

All the best to you and the other parents/guardians of ASD children.

T

[McCabes]

Thanks MrandMrsK, I'll definitely do that.

He doesn't have any assistance or tutors(unless you count me?), just the OT, which simplifies things a lot

If I test him online (never the best I know), he's reading at 4-5th grade level. So I'm guessing at least 2nd/3rd in reality. He knows the 2, 5, 10 (plus 1 and 0 because well... can't be easier ) times tables and is starting with 3. He can do mental addition easily with numbers like 55 + 8 and on paper 43 + 28 (the stacking, right to left method).

So I think he'd be ok there - the schools here don't seem to like it when kids are anything other than average. It took weeks for the teacher to acknowledge that he could read (he started on his own in Grade 0) and let him skip ahead to the independant readers... So I've kind of given up and just give him actual-level stuff at home for him to look at and learn from.

Basically at the start of the year he just couldn't pay attention due to all the stimulation in a big class of 29 + the teacher and teacher intern they had. It's been incredibly frustrating to know what he can do at home (or at OT, one-on-one) and not see him performing at the same level at school. They now have only 23 kids in his class (dunno what happened to the others), but the OT has also helped him a LOT in terms of concentration/attention, following instructions and completing work. He's not reversing as much(except when tired), and his handwriting is awesome. Last term the teacher didn't feel she needed to see me at report time, which was a first, and wrote that she's proud of how hard he's worked and all he's accomplished. So I guess something like that could also help in showing his progress with regards to docs for the medicals. We'll see if they notice anything amiss at all next year. Hopefully he sticks more or less with the same kids so it's just the new classroom and teacher he needs to adapt to... (I can hope... right?)

We actually had no idea that his "quirks" were serious and part of a disorder (it's taken the whole year to convince the grandparents this is a real disorder). So we don't really have anything to compare back to. None of the nursery schools (or paeds) had much to say - his grade 00 teacher mentioned his attention wasn't fantastic - but qualified that by saying "but they're all like that at this age". So we didn't catch it until last year in Grade 0 when his teacher said he wasn't coping with the classroom - that he just wasn't doing anything in class, but if she sits with him 1-on-1 he can do all the work, so she was puzzled with why that was.

So, big strides made this year - am so proud of him (bet you couldn't tell right? lol )

Thanks for the advice, I'm going to make a mental note to get letters from the OT - maybe I'll just ask for them regardless as a year on year comparison from the beginning of this year to the beginning of next. That should be interesting.

[MrandMrsK]

Yes, keep everything you get from now on.

All the best for the process!

T

[Renny]

Just thought I would post this link.....my sister in Aus shared it with me. We do some reading about this occasionally although we don't have kids yet

http://www.whydontyoutrythis.com/2013/08/courts-quietly-confirm-mmr-vaccine-causes-autism.html

[AndreaL]

Just thought I would post this link.....my sister in Aus shared it with me. We do some reading about this occasionally although we don't have kids yet

http://www.whydontyoutrythis.com/2013/08/courts-quietly-confirm-mmr-vaccine-causes-autism.html

I really don't believe this, I find it odd that many emails are circulating using the same words "Courts confirm vaccines cause autism.” via whiteout press. I just think it is the anti-vaccine brigade at large.

If we stopped vaccinating our kids, there would be hundreds, if not thousands of deaths due to the very diseases that the vaccinations prevent. One only has to look at the figures for childhood mortality before vaccinations became routine to see this truth.

I don't know what causes autism, some of the latest science suggests a genetic component, but as yet this is a theory, no-one does know and I think conspiracy theories do more harm than good. http://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywillingham/2013/08/09/court-rulings-dont-confirm-autism-vaccine-link/

http://news.nationalgeographic.com.au/news/2013/07/130716-autism-vaccines-mccarthy-view-medicine-science/

A mitochondrial disease link? http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/topics.html

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vaccines/CC00014

Vaccines do carry some risks, but so does non-vaccination and allowing your child to acquire natural immunity ....."A natural infection often provides more complete immunity than a series of vaccinations — but there's a price to pay for natural immunity. For example, a natural chickenpox (varicella) infection could lead to pneumonia. A natural polio infection could cause permanent paralysis. A natural mumps infection could lead to deafness. A natural Hib infection could result in permanent brain damage. Vaccination can help prevent these diseases and their potentially serious complications"

You have to weigh up the potential for disability and death if you do not vaccinate and the potential for disability and death if you do and the potential is much less in vaccinated children.

California’s worst episode of whooping cough, or pertussis, in 2010, likely spread among unvaccinated children to infect 9,210 youngsters.

At first, the outbreak was blamed on waning immunity to the whooping cough vaccine, but new research published in the journal Pediatrics reports that the high number of children who were intentionally unvaccinated also contributed to the rapid spread of the infection.

Read more: Unvaccinated Kids Contribute to Whooping Cough Outbreak | TIME.com http://healthland.time.com/2013/09/30/parents-not-vaccinating-kids-contributed-to-whooping-cough-outbreaks/#ixzz2lpjazqmT

he researchers identified 22 websites for this study, 12 from the original 772 sites and 12 additional ones that were linked to these sites.

All of the sites suggested that vaccines cause illnesses or disorders of unknown cause, such as autism, sudden infant death syndrome, immune dysfunction, diabetes, neurological disorders, allergic rhinitis, eczema, and asthma.

All of the sites linked to other anti-vaccine web sites.

Most of the sites provided personal accounts of children whose parents felt they had been harmed by vaccines. Most also provided information on how to avoid vaccinations. Seven sites (32%) displayed pictures of menacing needles, and 5 sites (23%) displayed pictures of children allegedly harmed or killed by vaccine reactions.

Many of the sites promoted homeopathy, alternative health, and natural methods of enhancing immunity instead of vaccinations.

Most sites suggested that vaccine public health policy is motivated by profit and that universal vaccination recommendations promote a cover-up of vaccine adverse effects.

Sorry I'm labouring the point, but I feel quite strongly about this, you only have to see one child, brain damaged through measles to feel so strongly.

[McCabes]

Andrea... I hear where you are coming from, but...

I have postponed vaccinating. I'm not sure if/when I'll continue. In our case, I have my own subjective reasons including what I think is a genetic component in our family, and a bad reaction my elder daughter had to the very first vaccine she got the day after she was born, which took 18months to heal. That plus a nurse telling me giving my 2 year old (at the time) son the MMR would damage his brain - all of this just did not lead me to have a lot of faith in vaccines. Trying to find out more - from Paeds as well as online - has just led me into a world of doubt and double-guessing myself. I've had 1 Paed tell me there is a link but only in "like" 1 in 1 000 000 kids. Another Paed has said he understands my concern and has recommended a (much) shorter list which I'm debating with myself on a regular basis.

There were 2 court cases - Hannah poling in the USA and another in Italy I can't remember, which did find a definite indisputable link between the vaccines and autism. For Hannah a mitochondrial disorder was involved - but this concerns me because no one asks the kind of questions that would lead to this being discovered beforehand.

As we see more and more conditions increasing - diabetes, metabolism disorder, thyroid disorders, eczema, asthma, allergies - milk and gluten especially, OCD/ADHD/Dyslexia and other learning disabilities, austim spectrum including SPD - I think we've created a world - environment, food, lifestyle - which our bodies are not made to work in - not optimally. It is stated that an ineffective immune system (notably for people undergoing chemo or radiation or organ transplant on immunosuppressants) can't cope with vaccines. I just had my 3 year old in with a doctor who was concerned about her immune system and asking about HIV in the family (both hubby and I donate blood so doubtful), or immune disorders, because she's simply not growing, and getting regular fungal infections. Nobody who I've ever seen before has asked me anything that would result in a "hmm, maybe this child isn't suitable for this vaccine or maybe this case requires further investigation" kind of answer. I've never even been asked about egg allergy or steroid use (for asthma/eczema etc - which is also in the family).

I'm sorry I keep telling myself to keep it short.

I have concerns, and to me, these are valid concerns. I know you probably didn't mean it that way... but I get tired of defending our decision (my hubby agrees with me), and being made to feel really stupid for asking questions and not just placing my trust in companies who make a really huge amount of money out of this system...

And I have to wonder how many of these are REALLY necessary? Go read the info on the flu vaccine for kids on the NHS site (pasted below for ease of reading)... by this reasoning we should have a vaccine for simply everything... But maybe that's what they're aiming for - a completely disease free world? I'm not sure...

Why children are being offered a flu vaccine

Flu can be very unpleasant for children. They have the same symptoms as adults – including fever, chills, aching muscles, headache, stuffy nose, dry cough and sore throat lasting up to a week.

Some children develop a very high fever or complications of flu such as bronchitis, pneumonia and painful middle ear infection. They may need hospital treatment, and very occasionally a child may die from flu.

For children with long-term health conditions such as diabetes, asthma, heart disease or lung disease, getting flu can be very serious as they are more at risk of developing serious complications.

Read more about flu and the complications of flu.

Stopping the spread of flu

The nasal spray flu vaccine will not only help to protect your child from getting flu, it also stops the disease spreading from them to their family, carers and the wider population. This is known as herd immunity.

Children are good at spreading flu, because they tend to sneeze everywhere and don't use tissues properly or wash their hands. Vaccinating them may also protect others that are vulnerable to flu such as babies, older people, pregnant women and people with serious long-term illnesses.

Read more about how flu is spread.

http://www.nhsdirect.wales.nhs.uk/encyclopaedia/v/article/vaccinations,childrenandteens/

[Renny]

From things that I have read over the years, this is my OPINION below

microwaves.....they can cause cancer.....

hormones and steroids in our food causes cancer

hormones in our milk causes infertility

when billion dollar industries causes harm to people, they can sweep it under the rug and have a very good way of moving the blame to another person/company that does not have that kind of money.

Our society is driven by greed and wealth and are causing pain and suffering for the people in it.

The more steroids and hormones in the food,the bigger and faster they grow...more money

The more chickens they cram into a little box and the more eggs they lay (without having the chance to walk around and not get injected by hormones) the more money they make.

Pharmaceutical companies are HUGE in this world of ours. Governments set the standards of what gets in and out of the country as being "safe". Does our government really do everything to the benefit of the people or maby just for their own pocket???

My hubby was a pharmaceutical rep for years and the way it actually works is as follows......The Doctor or pharmacist will give you the kind of scripts or medicine that is more beneficial for them ito kick backs they get from the pharmaceutical companies. The better deal they get from pharma companies and the more "cash back" they get for prescribing specific products, the more likely they are to push those items....to the benefit of the pocket and not always the patient. I am not saying the doctor will give you something to harm you so he can get money.....but they are in the end driven by what they get back from the pharma companies. In my line of work I worked with big medical companies and had good standing relationships with the dr's......they even confess it to you. It's tough out there and they need to do that little extra to make a little more (their words)!!

[McCabes]

This is just too complicated. Andrea - I read all your links and think... maybe I am mad. Maybe I am taking this huge risk.

But. there's always this BUT. And nothing I've found so far has resolved that but.

Renny... I'm not sure about microwaves but it wouldn't surprise me, really. Though I've heard it's only if they're defective in some way??? I dunno.

I dunno about all the steroids and hormones, but foods definitely affect you. I know for sure that my kids react to colourants and preservatives, and this seems common among kids with ADHD and ASD as well - there's a diet that helps elliminate all the stuff that's known to cause bad reactions, called the Feingold diet (you can look it up). I can see the difference in my kids after they've had red colouring or stuff with lots of preservatives in (viennas, highly processed foods etc). But there's still some debate as to whether it's really the colourants/additives or rather the diet as a whole - if you cut all these things out, you're pretty much left with veggies and meat...

With all this kind of stuff, there's too much weight on both sides. I can't ignore vaccinations forever. I just wish there was some way for me, personally to KNOW for sure, what is right for us, with our genetic makeup and possibly immune hiccups and pre-existing other conditions.

It's not an easy topic whichever way you look at it.

Edited November 27, 2013 by McCabes

[AndreR]

BellaDee - thanks for sharing, that is such a lot to handle - sounds like you are managing really well and hope things go well and everything goes ok with his medicals!

Thanks Broughsan, that was reassuring for the rest of us - I'm actually more concerned now about my 3 year old (4 in April, who weighs 12.4kg and is 92cm tall... she's roughly on the 3rd centile line of the charts the pdf refers to for both weight and height - and they draw the line at 3rd centile. The paed has always just gestured in my direction and said "but mommy's not very big is she?" (I'm about 5'4" - and "tall" in my family!) so I never thought it was anything to worry about. My son also only hits between 10th and 25th centile so I haven't got very large children. Though my youngest hits 50th centile for both so at least I don't have to worry about 2 out of 3 I guess...

arrrgh... thinking way too far down the line again... what will be will be. Que sera... Woosa.

Guess I'll need to stretch 'em and fatten 'em up before we do medicals-if/when we do medicals

My son is a skinny malinkie, like I used to be :-). He eats like a horse but is very active and otherwise healthy. When he did his medicals at 11 his BMI was something like 15, only weighing 30kg's, This had us really worried. The doctor was happy though and made a note on the medicals that in her opinion he appeared to be in good health, and the visa was granted without any issues.

[AndreaL]

McCabes..............I'm so sorry, I didn't even realise you had not vaccinated your kids, I was just replying to the link before about "courts quietly reveal the truth about vaccines"..........gosh, I don't know if you mentioned it in one of your earlier posts, but if i had seen it, probably would not have posted anything.

I have been through the same worries, I did a fair bit of reading myself and chose to pay to have my daughters MMR in 3 separate injections rather than the one. I saw a lot of the consequences of non-vaccination when I lived in Namibia..................but at the end of the day it is your child and your choice...............please don't feel the need to defend yourself. as I said, I didn't even know.................maybe I should go back and read this whole thread properly.............I just recall reading about worrying over the medicals witha child with a sensory issue...........I'll go and have a proper read shortly ................... I do get a bit hot under the collar about some issues, I have a friend who has her son on a very srict diet as he has been diagnosed with tourettes.............he is a tiny little thing and this diet is very extreme, no additives, no colourants, no dairy, can't eat bananas with black bits, the only fruit he can eat is pears................the thing is my 8 year old is a very picky eater............lives on milk, yoghurt and Red rooster chips, and custard and mielies. he is tall and solid, very smart and doing well at school.

One day my friend and I went to pick up the kids and she had a copy of a book under her arms........I jokingly said, "Ooh, I'd better not read that, we all know I am the crap mother of the year"............she then launched into a why I should read it and I said, Adam is healthy, hardly ever gets sick, is doing well at school etc..................and she said, " Maybe his body is compensating for his bad diet"...............what the, my son doesn't have tourettes, doesn't have an attention problem...............I just kept quiet and left as we have been friends for years, but was very hurt, she also said I should take him to this wonderful dietician that she is seeing.

I've done all that, my kids are like me and don't like certain textures or smells in food and hate to chew ( they would gag at anything as babies) and no amount of trying would get them to try new things............I've decided that they are alive (14 and 8), hardly ever ill, and that one day they will eat more foods.............I was the same and wouldn't touch vegetables, but have been a vegetarian for 22 years now....................anyway, we all have to do what we feel is in the best interests of our child, it has to sit right with us.

I do worry that not vaccinating children will make pandemics more common................we have had a lot of whooping cough in Qld this year and we have one of the lowest immunisation rates of all the states...............but you are able to conscientiously object to vaccination here in Australia.............anyway, I have to go out, but promise to read everything in full.

I'm so sorry if anything I have said has hurt you...........I am a big believer in science and there is good in it, think of the millions of diabetics who can live more normal lives. There are some good alternative health sites, but everything has to be backed by cold hard facts, which is hard when you are thinking about your on child.

[AndreaL]

I've looked and I can't see any reference to vaccination other than Renny's post, which is the one I replied to, so if I have upset you, it is entirely unintentional as I wouldn't have known if your child was vaccinated or not, obviously you have had to defend your choices before, which is never nice, I know.

To be honest, I've had my own battles with my oldest child, she is very shy, avoids eye contact etc and when she was a baby, didn't like the feel of grass, or scratchy clothes etc........................the subject of aspergers was first brought up when she was at play school in Namibia, so I took her down to the Red Cross children's hospital in Cape Town. where she was observed at play.................."this child doesn't have aspergers, but needs more disciplined parents" was the diagnosis" a bit odd really, because she has never been naughty or acted out............just prefers to be in the middle of the group and not be singled out.............at home she looks us in the eye, communicates well etc..........

Then we came to Australia and again aspergers was mentioned................personally I think that the fact that hubby and I don't really socialise means that our kids are a bit behind their peers socially. In year 3 I told great teacher about all the aspergers comments.............she gave me a checklist to complete and I handed it to her.............she threw it in the bin...................what a load of codswhallop she said, that child had absolutely nothing wrong with her.

The next couple of years at school over here in Qld the primary school tried all sorts of things to make her a more sociable and outgoing being........eventually the head of curriculum said............." Andrea, some kids are just shy, it's the way they are built and nothing will change it".............so that was that.

Then about 2 months ago, the whole aspergers story came up with my son............top of the class, but here we went again. he had dropped his pencil case and picked up the pencil case, but not the pencils and went back to his desk................this worried the teacher...................I did ask him why and he said he was scared he would get told off for not finishing his work.

The thing is Australian children are very forward in a lot of respects, even down to challenging adults. I have brought my kids up to respect their elders and not to back-chat etc, so I don't mind if he is a little scared of upsetting the teacher............he should be, they all should be, only to the extent that they behave and do what is required of them in class.

I asked the teacher about what would change if Adam was given a diagnosis of aspergers................she said nothing, he doesn't have any learning problems, behavioural problems and therefore would not receive any assistance, which children with difficulties do.................why on earth would I stick a label on my child, that would give him no benefit, just because he is different to other kids, very academic and not very sporty.

Also, my red flags started to go up when my niece started to work in childcare and was learning about children's developmental milestones. I just felt that they were being taught to assume that any child that didn't reach milestones at an exactly determined point was being labelled as either ASD or to my great horror, might be a victim of sexual abuse..............I have the greatest of respect for the trained professionals who do diagnose children, but a 21 year old who has never had a child, doing a Cert 3 in childcare, simply does not have enough training or knowledge to be making such calls or guesses.

What happened to eccentric and unusual individuals, do we all have to do the same things at the same time?.

One thing that is great here in Australia though is that the education system is very, very inclusive, the children who do have any form of ASD are well supported and able to be with their friends through their school years.....................so I guess there are pros and cons to the system here, but on the whole I think it is pretty good.

[McCabes]

Hi Andrea,

Sorry I thought it was on this thread but I think there was another thread that spoke about whether your kids' vaccinations all had to be up to date to be approved for the visa... I think I mentioned it there but may not have said much, I try not to as I really understand all your points and the last thing I want it to put people off.

You see, I'm completely on the fence... I also worry about pandemics

I would prefer to vaccinate, and feel that we are "safe" but I just can't bring myself to do it.

My son had all of his, up to the MMR. I was the typical paranoid parent and it was just what you did - vaccinate I mean. Until the MMR. He was due for his at about the time my nephew was diagnosed as an Aspie (he is one for sure though!)

So I went and read up, and suddenly noticed how many small signs my son had already of autism/autistic-like traits (few gestures, little eye-contact, didn't want to be held, etc). Then of course back in the day there wasn't such heavy response to wakefield being a fraud/tampering with stuff. So I looked it up, and was worried. So I asked our paed at the time and she said maybe 1 in 1mill or 100k will be affected or trigger autism - but she vaccinated all her kids and I should too. She didn't seem at all concerned that he already had a few ASD traits and said I should rather go ahead.

He then had a parasite infection (bad creche... first time parents - we made the wrong choice based on my MILs impression of a place...) anyway. So I waited until he was better and then he had an ear/throat infection (can't remember), so I waited. Then by some twisted reasoning I thought hey, maybe if I just wait until he's already 2, then it won't affect him and he won't develop further ASD traits/progress further into the spectrum... so I waited, then went and had the nurse so nope sorry, can't do due to damaging their brains after two (!?! this still concerns me!)

So then we were forced to wait with him anyway, but that really scared me and put me off. Roll on another 18months and we had my elder daughter. She had her first injection in the hospital and it just never got better. The paed even asked if I was meddling with it! I didn't touch it, and I watched her and she wasn't either. She had the first 3, then I stopped, because she just wasn't healing from the first, and no one seemed bothered by it and just waved off my concern or told me that I was mistaken and something else must have cut her or bit her there...

So... she has a lot of sensory issues, but in different areas to my son who has full on SPD with mostly moderation issues, which I've heard can be a vaccine side-affect... (I can't say if this was a scientific review or not... I'll try find out)

So my middle/elder daughter only walked at 18months due to really tactile defensive feet... she had to go for physio to right the issue and get her to put her feet down flat - at 18 months she did not do it at all, and if you put her on grass she would tilt her little feet off the ground! so she was behind in a lot of gross motor development areas because of this.

I'm not trying to say this is vaccine related... but I'm leading up to:

my third baby had her first injection, and no others. She has no sensory issues as far as I can tell (I feel I'm quite good at spotting them now!), and has been ahead in all her milestones. I realise this is probably a combination of things - being the third, and wanting to catch up, having extra stimulation with siblings to play with, being at a really fabulous creche and maybe even that I breastfed her the longest??? I really have no idea. but in our specific case, it doesn't look good - and no, I really can't say if this is related to vaccines or not... but this, as well as a widespread family history of SPD and aspies and all kinds of learning disorders... it just really concerns me that we might be one of the families who are genetically predisposed, and for whom vaccines may act as a trigger?

But this is all just my experience, and my opinion. I really don't want to put anyone else off. It is probably the right thing to do to keep vaccinating. I would encourage everyone to do their own investigation, and talk to a health professional they trust and who will listen and answer their questions and then make a decision - and don't just read the health sites with (mostly) dubious resources. Make sure you're using ones with good sources and with reputable organisations.

Andrea, thanks for being such a sweetheart. I have had to defend myself before, and it's not fun. I don't like to tell this whole long story to everyone... but I feel this is a safe space And I do always encourage people to look into this themselves and not just refuse based on my story because this is just my family, our genes etc. It will not be the case in most cases!

PS have your kids been assessed for sensory issues? I was told after Matt was assessed that SPuDdies (haha) often don't make eye contact, especially when you're talking to them - simply because they can't cope with the visual input at the same time as trying to take in all the auditory input and process and make sense of it. It's too much. So they'll avoid eye contact simply to focus on what you're saying so they can do what they need to. All the tactile stuff is also part of it - my son cannot bear unexpected touch, and earlier this year before we were with the right OT, had bitten 2 kids out of simple fight/flight response (he didn't even realise what he was doing) when in a line at school and bumped into unexpectedly. His is more the extreme side - and he hasn't done that since early this year after we switched to a great OT. I'm not saying your kids need any labels (good for you, I think you're right not to pursue if he doesn't need anything extra), but it could help if they are having trouble with sensory stuff - only if they battle. They say kids usually even out a year or so after starting school, then may need help again at puberty when their system is all over the show with hormones and senses spike again, then maybe off an on if under huge stress later in life.

PPS I would guess I have the same thing as my kids (I just ate cooked egg white for the first time in my life on Sunday... could never bring myself to do that before... I also can't do a lot of eye contact if I don't know you well and am not used to your voice and confident that I will follow what you say...), my brother has a form of SPD that was misdiagnosed as ADHD and dysgraphia, my nephew is an Aspie, I would guess that a few of the cousins hit the edge of the spectrum as well. Mostly it seems to have turned out a generation of second cousins who are exceptionally bright (a number are in Aus and have been through the Gifted programs) but somewhat aloof...

PPPS we were also told by a horrible OT that we simply had to be more strict with Matt. this makes me so mad. But she somehow also thought he was an only child and that we simply fawned and pandered to his every whim and gave into every desire. HAH! LOL I've actually stepped back a lot on how strict we are and he is doing a lot better with gentler discipline than he ever did when we were "stricter"/harsher/quicker to dole out discipline... Our new, fabulous, wonderful OT has often said to me that too many of these kids are treated so unfairly because a lot of their "bad" behaviour is due to sensory stuff and it's hardly helpful to punish them for stuff they simply don't know how to cope with. We are still strict, and if he's behaving badly I call him out on it, but these days it's more to draw attention to it and then offer an alternative way to behave... seems to be working so far...

[McCabes]

Thanks AndreR - sorry I missed your reply! That does give me hope. He's quite active and building good muscles in gymnastics - he's a champion at doing handstands (it's in fashion at school at the moment) so has got really good forearms! LOL.

I think my 3 year old's BMI is 14 and the 7 year old is at 15 I think so it's about where your son was. I guess as long as they both stick on that curve and don't drop any further off then we will hopefully be ok and be able to show that they're petite.

Thanks for your reassurance

Edited November 28, 2013 by McCabes

[AndreaL]

Thanks for sharing, It can be hard to do so, especially when you expect people to judge and it is really hard to put down all the reasons you feel a particular way about something, without people seizing on one thing you say and making an issue out of it. I would definitely say that Jade was and still is a little tactile defensive.......she doesn't like to be hugged, but then neither did I as a developing teenager with very little body confidence..........Funnily, my MIL tells me that when hubby was little, he could not bear to stand on sand, they have a picture of him in Durban with his little 70's Y-fronts and a pair of socks on......on the sand!

Jade also had GOR as a baby, so she was a pretty crotchety child at best, one really good nurse put it in perspective, when she said, " how would you like scratchy clothes on if you have the constant pain of heartburn and reflux"

The thing is, parenting is incredibly difficult, more so now in this age of technology where you can google and come up with all sorts of information and mis-information.............I am tired of always feeling guilty about things I did or didn't do, we Mums are often made to feel guilty, so I figure if they are alive and growing, at least I am doing something right................sometimes I can be quite rude..............on another forum a woman told a young Mum to give her toddler a teaspoon of dettol in milk to clear up a runny tummy and I was appalled and replied
"please do not do this and added links to cases of poisoning from dettol".......if something is harmful and there is evidence to back this up, I will speak up, but on the whole feel that it is up to each of us to swim through the streams of information available and come up with what suits our child and family, after all we are all different and have been shaped by different events. I too would be scared if there were diagnosed cases of autism in my family. sometime s I feel that I end up weighing up the dangers on either side of the debate and trying to choose the "least harm" option

[followmylead]

I wonder if there is still such a thing as a normal child? My 3 perfectly normal children all have something 'wrong' with them. ADHD, SID, low muscle tone etc.... They have done all the therapies. A very wise friend said to me (after despairing) no person is perfectly balanced, we all have weak areas and many of the things that worry us to death about our kids resolve with time as their neurological system matures.

Now I did vaccinate and believe in it, yet my youngest got deathly ill with HiB despite being vaccinated after being exposed by an unknown source. I have decided to just be normal. So my kids eat white bread and macdonalds on occasion. We have sugar and dairy. I don't judge those who would prefer to avoid it and ignore those who judge us

[McCabes]

LOL followmylead... I hear you. We do normal stuff like eat white bread and McD's, but I try keep it to occasional with "junk" food and weekends for white bread so we don't have a knock-on effect at school, and so they can come racing back in half an hour if they need more fuel think we're all just doing our best but I think it's good that they get the white bread and junk food now and then otherwise it becomes like forbidden fruit... we also have sugar and dairy so I guess I'm with you and we're pretty normal (I will say we also *try* keep sweets to weekends and I am selective with colours/types they can have because they react... but otherwise we do all that too )

Andrea, I agree. I'm not so sure internet is helping much with issues like this. For every site that says one thing, there's another that says the opposite. I've actually stopped reading up on this and I only check the sites doing proper research. I really wish I could just GO and take them and get it done, but I am so terrified that I do and I trigger something. It really scares me, and until they can offer a screening of some kind I'm not sure how I can get around this?

followmylead - there was a measles scare last year with my youngest who had not had the measles vac, and the GP said they have to test for it and report it if it is measles, so she went for the test... it was negative, and she showed full immunity to it anyway... maybe leftover maternal immunity? I'm not sure how long that lasts?

I think with vaccinations they say it's not just that they can prevent you getting ill at all, but that if you do get sick, it will be milder than if you hadn't had it - though if he was deathly ill I'm not sure...

I think there is definitely something with your neurological system maturing theory, but I know in recent studies MRIs have shown that kids with SPD/SID have brains that work differently, which is quite a breakthrough but helps motivate towards classifying it as something people can claim med aid for.

All I know is that my son has done so well this year... it's strange to look back and see that all we thought was normal for us has evolved now with him learning to cope and his system maturing. It's so nice not to have had any letters or phonecalls about him acting out because he used to be permanently in fight/flight. Now he manages... and I'm so happy for him that going to school isn't such a difficult thing to do anymore

thanks for your understanding ladies. I know it's really hard to disagree but not argue over it. I really agree with all your points but that stupid BUT just won't leave me alone.

PS Andrea - DETTOL!!! I almost sprayed my tea all over the place. WHAT ON EARTH is she thinking!?!?!?!? wow... o.0

Edited November 28, 2013 by McCabes

[AndreaL]

Trust your gut and don't be persuaded to do anything you feel uncomfortable with.

Followmylead is right, both my kids have eccentricities.................but I wonder how we ever got to a world where if you don't meet a set standard, there is something wrong with you.

I break it down to basics..........can my kids function-yes, will they be able to function on their own in the world-yes...........beyond that there is not much I can control, so I jusr have to have faith that I am doing the best I can.

Re vaccination, it does not provide 100% immunity, you can still contract an illness, but it should be milder with less potential for brain or physical damage...........think of how many people feel a bit ill after the flu vaccination.

Maternal immunity appears to last between 2 to 5 months............I know I said reading on the internet drives you crazy, but this article is quite interesting and may make you feel a little better in that it suggests that the most dangerous time for a child to contract measles is in the first year............common sense really, we take our babies out and they get exposed to all sorts of nasties in that first year, so if your youngest is over a year old the potential for greatest risk should be over.

You may not like to read the entire article, but interestingly, the maternal immunity of children of vaccinated mothers was about 2 months less than that of children of non-vaccinated mothers around 2 months for the first group and up to 5 for the second..........the result being that vaccination schedules may need to be adjusted to counter this loss of maternal antibodies.

The other thing is that while DNA virus stays the same, RNA viruses mutate and become more virulent( think the 1918 major flu pandemic that killed between 50 and 100 million people) and vaccination immunity levels will decrease as the virus mutates to overcome the effects of the vaccination...........which is why we need new flu vaccinations depending on the strain.

Anyway, here are the links, nothing wrong with informing ourselves, maternal antibodies http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2013/04/29/infdis.jit143.long

Viruses, including antigentic shift and antigenic drift http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2013/04/29/infdis.jit143.long

I think we forget how vaccination changed the world sometimes, and also that yes, viruses do hurt us, but they also keep us alive too, you can do some googling on this, but think of the sci-fi movies you have watched where an alien invasion was stopped by infecting the aliens with a virus that was deadly to the aliens but harmless to us.............even trashy sci-fi films have a basis in science.