457 Visa, WA, school fees

[chzaau]

Make sure you have negotiated sufficiently, $ 4,000 per child from next year in WA.

He warned that children of 457 visa holders were putting “significant” pressure on the state’s education system.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/national/parents-working-on-457-visas-to-fork-out-4000-per-child-to-attend-public-schools/story-fnii5thq-1226693647266

[ronfire]

I just saw that.

I wonder what pressure they're talking about. For me, it's a bit of a put-on until I see some stats/numbers. I suspect it's a simple cash grab.

Any teachers at public schools in WA able to give anecdotal evidence?

[TQO]

Eish ... is there any positive news this month

[Jordy]

Look one thing we must understand is that the gravy train is hitting its brakes and hard. Aus' debt is now a quarter of a trillion Dollars. The election promises are to clear that debt within 3 years by 2016. That means cuts to everything federally funded. And that means the states must find their own funding.

We have already seen visa fees trippling for some people, this $4000 a year for WA school 457 kids (other states already pay).

[Enrica]

^{Ronfire, I am not sure what you mean by a "cash grab". Public school in primary school is around $50.00 per month for a resident or citizen and I think around $400.00 in high school. So the fact that they are charging " non resident" in the case 457 visa holders I am not sure how you can call that a cash grab. in my opinion the government has a responsibility towards its citizens first , before 457 visa holder. If they started charge the resident and citizens $4000 per year for school fees then , yes I would consider it a cash grab. The labour government has gotten this country into so much debt and we cannot just carry on bleeding , somehow things have to change in the so called lucky country.WA would not be the first state to be charging 457 visa holders for education. First world education costs money.}

[miraclebabycaw]

100% Enrica.

[21yearsoutofrsa]

I know, through my dealings with the Queensland government that they have also considered charging school fees for 457 visa holders.

[ronfire]

Look one thing we must understand is that the gravy train is hitting its brakes and hard. Aus' debt is now a quarter of a trillion Dollars. The election promises are to clear that debt within 3 years by 2016. That means cuts to everything federally funded. And that means the states must find their own funding.

We have already seen visa fees trippling for some people, this $4000 a year for WA school 457 kids (other states already pay).

Of all the states, WA has been coining it for the past several years. What've they done with those proceeds? Where are the investments into infrastructure, health, education, etc that should have been made years ago? Now, we're getting proposed investment into long-overdue infrastructure being funded from borrowings! In the richest state in the country! We can buy $8-$10 coffees in Perth and build a $1b footie stadium, but if you have the misfortune to go to emergency at a public hospital, you have the privilege of waiting hours while watching harried, exhausted medical staff trying to cope with volumes they do not have the resources to deal with. The richest state in the country, apparently. I shudder to think what Tassie waiting times are like, but I suspect they're better.

^{Ronfire, I am not sure what you mean by a "cash grab". Public school in primary school is around $50.00 per month for a resident or citizen and I think around $400.00 in high school. So the fact that they are charging " non resident" in the case 457 visa holders I am not sure how you can call that a cash grab. in my opinion the government has a responsibility towards its citizens first , before 457 visa holder. If they started charge the resident and citizens $4000 per year for school fees then , yes I would consider it a cash grab. The labour government has gotten this country into so much debt and we cannot just carry on bleeding , somehow things have to change in the so called lucky country.WA would not be the first state to be charging 457 visa holders for education. First world education costs money.}

Actually, I said until I can see some figures/stats, I'd consider it a cash grab.....since this has been slid in along with everything else in this State budget that looks like a duck...er... cash grab eg. the solar rebate scheme, etc, etc. I'd be interested to see how this $4000 figure is costed. Besides, every 457 visa holder is a taxpayer that does not draw on benefits that accrue to citizens and perm residents, eg, child care benefit, etc so they're not costing the State anything extra anyway. They pay for their own medical, child care, etc.

The Labor Feds have bled the country dry.....no argument there. Trouble is, 457 holders are an easy target, just like visa applicants. Instead of actually managing the money they get, it's much easier to whack these poor saps with great big fees because they can do nothing about it at all. Imagine if they decided to start charging Australians $1000 p.a. for public school education - there'd be an outcry so loud no govt would go near it for the next 50 years.

I hear weekly from highly qualified Aussies who're either leaving the country or making plans to go work and live somewhere in the US, Canada, etc. I know a number who have already done that. When that's happening you have to make provision for skills to come in from outside the country, via the 457 program. Making it more and more expensive for people to come and live here on a work permit will just make it less attractive altogether. That's all I'm saying. It's easy to say, the govt is trying to take care of its own citizens first, but the evidence does not support that. If it was doing that, we wouldn't be in a position today where the unprintable is hitting the fan and there's nothing in the kitty from all the cash that's flowed in over the past 10-20 years. We would not be in the position today where farmers are leaving the land in droves, because they cannot make a living. Never mind that the farming community is ageing much faster than the general population because of the lack of younger people taking up agriculture.

Australia has joined the ranks of other nations who have been overcome by pollie-itis: a disease where the whims and ambitions of professional politics takes precedence over the needs of the citizenry and the long-term welfare of the country.

What the heck am I going to do on Sept 7??

[chzaau]

I just want to say in the 80s as a kid I went to Sydney with my Mom for 6 months. The Sydney skyline had very few sky scrappers and in general was a real back water, it very different today.

On the other end Oz can be very unforgiving to foreigners. My one set of grand parents not connected with Oz in anyway migrated there in the 60s, the experience they had to this day they vowed never to return, they spent 4 years there and met this thing they called the great Australian wall.

It looks like they closing ranks again.

[Mikej]

A 457 visa holder pays the same tax as everyone else yet they do not get the same benefits as the rest of the country for example there are no Medicare or unemployment benefits. This in effect means that 457 visa holders subsidise everyone else so to increase their contributions anywhere is iniquitous and it is fair to call it a cash grab.

[AndreaL]

I sort of agree...457 holders pay taxes but cost government nothing to keep, they bring income, and spending power in..........the only thing I can see happening is that workers will have to negotiate a schooling allowance with prospective employers additional to suggested salary in order to pay for schooling.

Many 457 holders will just look at private schools, there are Catholic schools etc that charge much less than $4 500 per year.

I always thought it unfair that some states charged and others didn't, I believe it should be one rule across the land......perhaps if it was a standard fee of $1000 per child per year it might be more digestible.

[Jordy]

Andrea, you raise a very good point. This just pushes the 457's to private schools for cheaper fees. It is a total discouragement to use government schools. The problem with this is it that it there is already huge queues to get in private schools with long waiting lists. I just checked my local Catholic private school and the fees are $840 a year for Kindy to year 7.

[miraclebabycaw]

I just want to say in the 80s as a kid I went to Sydney with my Mom for 6 months. The Sydney skyline had very few sky scrappers and in general was a real back water, it very different today.

On the other end Oz can be very unforgiving to foreigners. My one set of grand parents not connected with Oz in anyway migrated there in the 60s, the experience they had to this day they vowed never to return, they spent 4 years there and met this thing they called the great Australian wall.

It looks like they closing ranks again.

hmmm funnily enough the same thing happened to both my folks and grandparents when they went to South Africa back in the 50s and 60s.They were ostrocized something chronic by the Afrikaans who would blatently talk about them behind their backs because they figured as British they didn't understand a word...except for the fact that my father was a Hollander and my mother spoke fluent Dutch as a result so she understood just about every word that was said. South Africa was also a very unforgiving country...and nothing has changed there.

Living in Adelaide, I wish we could get Private Catholic school fees at $840 a year for kindy. Cheapest I found was over $2000 dollars for my son who is in reception and from $4500 onwards for my daughter who is now in Year 8. Seems like WA has a lot of cheaper things than the rest of Australia

That being said I have to respectfully disagree with you Mikej. Please correct me if I am wrong because I don't know a hell of a lot about a 457, but from what I understand 457 holders might not have the centrelink and the medicare, but they get a lot of advantages upfront. From the way I understand it most (am sure not all so excuse the generalisation but from what I understand most) 457 holders get just about everything paid for by their companies. The company pays for the Visa, the company pays for the relocation, the companies pay for the medicals and often a couple of weeks accommodation this side to start off with. Also you have a guaranteed walk into Job. I have also heard of some that have negotiated school fees as part of their package as well. Given the fact of the actual cost of the PR visa's, the relocation costs, the job uncertainty and the spending of savings you go through while trying to find a job this side I think we have pretty much paid for the right to have our kids go to school and not pay the same fees. Sounds like 457 holders that do get all of this want their cake and eat it at the same time. Cost me in the Region of $20000 dollars if not more to actually get here, then we had to live off savings with no job in the first months we were here. Some people battle for 6-8 months to get work. On a family of 4 that is still probably a minimum of another 15k+ out of savings. There are other visa holders that also do not get the same benefits like the old 475 visa and student visa's who also come without guaranteed employment, and it costs them an arm and a leg to get here and they also have to pay loads of fees. I do feel it would be unfair to spring it on the one's already here as they didn't negotiate things like this to start with, but I do not see any reason why 457 holders who have applied should not have to pay. Give me the 35-40K + I forked out to get here and I will happily pay the fees for 2 years.

[AndreaL]

Miraclebabycaw

You are wrong...yes there are some people who have been fortunate enough to be relocated and have all expenses paid, but the majority not...apart from walking into a paying job immediately.

We were probably a bit naive in 2005 and before great forums like this, had to pretty much go by what an agent told us. Our situation was that we were in Namibia on a work permit and really didn't want to go back to RSA. I did look into Independent PR...I think it was a 175 then and apart from the cost. which we simply didn't have, there were a few other issues that would have made it difficult then, some visa's were taking 18 months to two and a half years.

We did secure a loan (with interest) from the company that sponsored us for $10 000 which paid for the flights that they booked and probably wrote off for tax, we also paid the visa cost (which actually was not allowed) and at that stage private medical was only a recommendation and even when it became law, the company does not have to pay for it....the only thing they legally have to pay for is the visa and the cost of the flight home at the end of the visa.

I have even known families where the sponsor paid the cost of the sponsored employee's flight, but not the rest of the family.

Probably back in 2007ish there were a fair few. especially in mining who had a lot paid for, but I'd reckon just as many or more perhaps had a little help or none.

We did it hard, debt up to the eyeballs, we arrived with no furniture and $5000 in cash. Hubby's wage was $43 000, which equated to about $600 a week minus the loan. I dreaded anyoje getting sick as that would be all we could afford that week. If we needed hospital we had to pay, we couldn't get credit because we were on a temporary visa etc etc.

In the past on this forum there has been some suggestion from some p.r. holders that they are somehow better than 457 people in relation to skills (because pre 2007 you could arrive without a skills assessment and have it done here) and because they felt they were somehow better because they had paid more to get here.

I would beg to disagree, both are used and recognised ways of getting here, you paid a lot up front and we got into a lot of debt which we paid off and only really started to recover once we got p.r.

I will admit that years ago I would have the odd twinge of jealousy at how lucky some people were and what a soft landing they had, but at least I know we have paid our dues and contributed to the country for many years whilst taking very little.

The type of visa you come on does not define you, often it is a matter of what is appropriate for you at that stage, we all take the same gamble, the same leap of faith, it is just that we do have a job to come to, albeit a very precarious one at times.

Let us see if other 457'ers comment, I know at one stage we had an anonymous poll on the forum to see who got what paid for, but I am not very good at finding things.

[Mikej]

Hello miraclebabycaw

there are a few fundamental issues in your reply that need pointing out.

The first one is state v private. None of the benefits you list are from government they are all voluntarily paid by private companies presumably to help attract the person they want. All the taxes paid by 457ers go to the government for which they receive very little in return.

The second issue is 457 vs permanent residents or citizens. None of the benfits you attribute are limited to 457 visa holders only. Many companies pay these same relocation and accomodation costs for permanent residents.

Finally it is not compulsory for employers to pay any of these benefits to 457 visa holders each individual case is different and it is up to the company to decide on their policies.

[OubaasDik]

+1 for Andrea and Mikej

I arrived here with $1,000 - no family, luckily. Spent the next 4 months staying "with" people who'd rent out a room, until I gathered enough money to rent a house ....

All the time watching the 457 people being screwed - because "who're they going to talk to?" Open your mouth and you're off "home".

Personally I was wondering when the school move would come since if one state can do it, another will as well.

Probably not "fair", depending on your definition of fair.

[chzaau]

In my own view, the terms and conditions of a 457 visa are clear to all, you can read up plenty of detail on the web, on DIAC website, on the forum. Times have changed, the economy is softer.

The 457 visa is a temporary visa actually designed to fill a "skills/shortage" gap, it was not intended for migration. You should leave your family in the country you coming from in my own view until either you have PR or you understand things sufficiently to be sure you can live okay.

Originally you had people coming over on 457, they would sell up everything and say we are "emigrating" to Oz, bringing the whole family and then claiming living away from home allowance(LAFHA). How can you claim LAFHA when your home is in Australia. So these 457 where happy to "cheat the system" at that time, because it was the "fair" thing to do.

Now that the game is changing they are upset and squealing like stuffed pigs.

457 visa is designed for the benefit of Australian companies, not for the individual on the 457 visa. The problem is that people do not educate themselves sufficiently or are so blind to moving to Australia that they lose there head and do not ask the correct question or are to scared that they may lose the opportunity, that they accept a very bad deal instead, which in times turns out pretty bad for them.

Again I will say the 457 visa is for the benefit of the Australian company, not the individual, negotiate your deal properly, keep in mind as quick as you arrive is as quick as you can be packed up and shipped out. Don't be fooled by the 28 days to 90 day thing either, you need to remember that the new sponsor has to prove they have been trying to recruit for 6 months already.

Edited August 12, 2013 by chzaau

[OubaasDik]

Oh, happy day - more of the "457 scum should stay out" stuff.

Some of what you say is true - the way you say them shows you are about as sensitive as Julius Malema.

Not a diplomat.

Are you still in RSA, Chzaau? Your ability and willingness to express opinions about anything in Aus is mind-boggling. I await the revelations you will unveil when you actually get here.

[AndreaL]

Chzaau, you're not one for positive posts are you? Always the negative.

Actually the 457 has several pathways to permanent residence and is a recognised way as such. many of those 120 thousand plus migration places each year are utilised by people transferring from a 457 to an ENS permanent visa.

Some facts....many companies will only agree to bring people over on a 457 with a view to p.r. at an agreed date, BHP, Anglo, Arrow energy, Coates Hire, Westrac.........I could continue.

Fact, a couple of years ago priority processing changed so that those poor people who lodged 175 visas around 2007 went from being top of the processing to bottom, replaced by employer sponsored permanent visa's, regional first 187 and then 186 (at that time). The immigration department started changing its migration program to ensure that skills shortages were met and that was the best way of getting skilled people into the right jobs in the right places.

We have never had and I have never met anyone who had LAFHA and I would probably know personally at least 100 South African families, LAFHA was something that was negotiated between employer and employee and was usually to top up wages for those in the I.T industry going to live in places like Sydney etc...........it is singularly uncommon in the mining/construction industry.

It must be delightful to sit in such a place of superiority and self rightousness as yourself.

Pull your head out and have a think......some people have NO other option but the 457, with a view to p.r.

Leave your family behind? Of course keeping two homes running makes perfect sense.....if we apply that logic then all p.r. holders should leave their families behind until they have a job and home...............so much for the support of your family when doing a really difficult thing.

Gosh, are you really that insensitive toward other people and biased toward the 457 visa............imagine if the 457 was the only option available.

It's different visa's that get us here, but we all have to be skilled...............I'm going to stop now, because I'm really annoyed by your statements........you've decided that you are smarter and wiser than other people and obviously are going the p.r. route.....good for you that you have that option, but why not stop making ridiculous statements about a visa class you know very little about but have obviously decided is for people not like yourself.

[miraclebabycaw]

Thanks Andrea and Mikej...as I said from what I understood giving my limited knowledge. I know about 6 or 7 families on 457's and a couple back in SA that decided not to take a 457 up and in every case they were sponsored by the companies bringing them over and did not have out of pocket expenses....actually I lie, 2 of the couples if I look back and remember had to pay the air fare for the wives and kids, but that was it. That being said I guess it's the chance you take as you are not officially a permanent resident. No country in the world will give you the same rights as a temporary resident to that of a permanent resident, exactly the same as a permanent resident does not have the same exact rights as a citizen. The differences might be small but they are still there. (unless of course you are an illegal alien from africa living in SA on illegal papers). My parents were PR in SA until my dad took out SA citizenship. My mom didn't want to give up her British Passport so didn't take out SA citizenship as she would have had to give it up like my dad did his Hollands citizenship. She worked and paid taxes her whole life in SA (has been there 50 years), and despite having virtually no income now she cannot get a South African Pension (such that it is)...why..because she is not a citizen only a Permanent Resident....same difference, she does not qualify for all the benefits. If she doesn't like it, she has the choice of going back to her home country of the UK. It's harsh I know but such is life. we also wanted to come over a number of years ago but we didn't have the options of PR and chose not to run the risks. Friends of ours came on student visas and it cost them an arm and a leg..they had to pay international school fees as well. As I said it's not fair on those already here, but those that apply must take note of it when negotiating to come on a 457. Victoria I think does it as well (at least that is where our friends were and had to pay..$8000 per year for their 2 boys)

[AndreaL]

Both my folks are from the UK too and have residence but kept their passports, so it is the same boat for them, but they have always known that. The 457 isn't always well understood by everyone and yes, there are some who really scored, but that is the nature of life, our journeys are different but we all want the same things.... a chance at a decent life.

Circumstances for us ( living in Namibia at the time in a work permit) meant that if we didn't grab that 457 chance then it may have been many years or never for us to go the independent p.r. route. It worked for us, we've paid our dues, I'm proud of our journey.

Yes, people will have to factor in schooling now, but as we all know, the immigration policies for both temp and permanent visa's do change frequently and people just have to adapt to the shifting goal posts

[AndreR]

So, I'm going over on a PR visa. I have very little savings due to some really poor financial decisions on my part combined with some bad luck. I'm not crying about it because it is what it is.

How much less of a burden am I over someone with a 457, who has a job, and will be paying tax from day one. I'm walking into Australia effectively unemployed, and my family can come along and enjoy all the benefits that PR brings. I'm not complaining about my lot, but how can tax paying workers on 457 visas be considered any more of a burden than unemployed me.

[OubaasDik]

So, I'm going over on a PR visa. I have very little savings due to some really poor financial decisions on my part combined with some bad luck. I'm not crying about it because it is what it is.

How much less of a burden am I over someone with a 457, who has a job, and will be paying tax from day one. I'm walking into Australia effectively unemployed, and my family can come along and enjoy all the benefits that PR brings. I'm not complaining about my lot, but how can tax paying workers on 457 visas be considered any more of a burden than unemployed me.

It's an election year. The parties need someone to unite against (rather than actually have real policies) the 457 people are easy pickings because they can't vote and they're taking Aussie jobs and rorting the system. If they complain too much they can be sent back. Simple really, if you are cynical enough.

Most of the policies seem to be "vote for us and we'll give you free stuff". From both main sides. The difference seems to be who they are going to take money from to buy the free stuff.

[Toitjie]

This has been an interesting read. Im wondering - where OBD states its an election year and 457 people are easy pickings because they cant vote, combined with the current budget deficit - what are the chances of further changes so that PR people will also be forced to pay such high fees for school? Since PR people also cant vote.... just curious

anyway - I really take my hat off to anyone who has the guts to take on a 457 visa. Its a big risk. For me it was a no-brainer to sell my house since I have PR, so Im safe. But those with 457 have a risk of possibly returning, and then they would need to start up again. Not easy and I think forcing them to pay such high fees is really unfair.

[OubaasDik]

This has been an interesting read. Im wondering - where OBD states its an election year and 457 people are easy pickings because they cant vote, combined with the current budget deficit - what are the chances of further changes so that PR people will also be forced to pay such high fees for school? Since PR people also cant vote.... just curious

anyway - I really take my hat off to anyone who has the guts to take on a 457 visa. Its a big risk. For me it was a no-brainer to sell my house since I have PR, so Im safe. But those with 457 have a risk of possibly returning, and then they would need to start up again. Not easy and I think forcing them to pay such high fees is really unfair.

PR people WILL become citizens, barring, earthquake, civil insurrection, attacks from Mars, so you're unlikely to see anyone singling them out - they may bear a grudge.