Visiting SA

[Donovan83]

So I've headed back to SA for a while (for my birthday and also to get a bit of a break and get some perspective again). I'm here for about 3 weeks.

It's weird being here. First off, Perth really doesn't feel all that far away from Johannesburg. Secondly, it's eerily familiar and feels like I never left. If I sit and concentrate I could probably fool myself into thinking that the last 6 months of living there were all a dream.

So far my experience has been different to what I expected. I thought I'd arrive back and immediately feel stressed and feel vilified for my leaving in that everything would look horrible and be super "African" but actually it wasn't like that at all. For the first day or so, I kinda wondered what all the fuss was about? It's quite nice here actually. However, after 2 days of alarms, gates, robot vendors, car guards, rude service, stupid service, traffic, broken robots, potholes, Joburg aggression etc I am now reminded of why I live in Perth and not here. This place has good points, but unless you are extremely rich and are able to live in a security estate and not have to work then it really sucks here. And it's so NOISY! Good grief, the neighborhood dogs just never shut the hell up and nobody does anything about it?! I've heard more yapping dogs in the 3 days I've been here than I've heard in all my time in Perth. Doesn't it annoy anyone else?!

So yeah, it's pretty much how I remember it, but its taken me a while to get back in touch with it all.

One big thing that I also have forgotten is the feeling of almost-guilt for being one of the haves and not one of the have nots. There's nothing quite like the look of hate and jealousy you get when you politely decline to buy some Ranband (fake Raybans hehe) at a traffic light.

Anyway, enough of this rambling. Going to enjoy the nice cheap eating out (a meal out for under $10 including soft drinks? Take away for under $6?!) and spending time with friends and family, but I am not sure I could ever comfortable stay here again.

[Donovan83]

I went back again in December and my views on the place have definitely softened a bit... but the endless barking everywhere and in every neighborhood would drive me to drink.

Nice things (this are relative to Perth, I know the east coast cities have more variety etc):

• Service by waiters motivated by tips, instead of the usual british backpackers with a don't care attitude who are on their working holiday visas trying to just cover their basics
• Decent restaurants! Decent malls that don't look like they are still in 1985!
• Decentish clothing for a reasonable price at Woolies and Edgars.
• Variety of products in the supermarkets - was nice to go to Pick and Pay again!
• And of course, not having fruit, meat and veggies cost the usual five million dollars per gram.

I won't lie, I do sometimes feel like it'd be easier to just throw in the towel here and move back to RSA (I'm sure we've all felt that). Doing that would need me to accept a few things... one thing I'd struggle with is that my future there would be less secure. I'm not sure I'd easily go back to being subject to racist things like BEE and AA in that I'd outright call it racist and stupid and I'm not sure that would go down so well in a work environment. The stress that comes with crime would also be difficult to deal with, same with the stress from sitting in traffic because of things like broken robots... power failures would make me feel even more like I was living in the end times.

If I ever did move back, it would only be after I have my aussie passport and also after I have invested in some kind of fixed property here. Apart from the risks of crime, I'd sleep quite well knowing that I didn't have any kind of significant investment in RSA. It's just too risky and volatile.

If I had kids, I'd never, ever entertain the idea of going back, especially if I was previously advantaged/currently disadvantaged.

Edited January 21, 2014 by Donovan83

[mistermoose]

Something that's become quite apparent to me is that saving enough to travel internationally based on the South African rand is useless. While you could save a couple of thousand dollars a month (depending on salary) in Australia, you could never save the equivalent in Rand to be able to have enough spending money in Pounds/Euros/US Dollars to ever get away. If you're going to build a future, and savings, it makes sense to do it in a currency that isn't 17:1 or 15:1 or 11:1 ... and rapidly getting worse.

[Toitjie]

Mistermoose - nail on the head. apart from having kids and wanting better education for them and the usual about crime etc, this was a huge factor for me. I really want to travel more and if you earn and spend ozzie dollars you are just on more equal footing than trying to do it in rands

[McCabes]

... I really don't see how grass being "less green" would lessen the push factors.

It's pretty simple to me, especially with kids:

where are they safer?

where will they get a better, world-recognised education?

where do they have better chance at a future?

I have to say news headlines are a big worry for me right now with a 7 year old reading well above grade level and starting to ask questions that I just don't want to answer. Look at Aus news sites and the "big" news is stuff like the australian open, an australian jihadist who was shot in syria and kids who were rescued after being trapped by a flood...

Compare South african news? I will admit it is "better" right now, but at the end of the year last year it was seriously sickening. Words that should just never appear in the same sentence... never mind wondering whether my 7 year old will ask me what that one means.

Sorry sorry... I don't mean to argue but I guess you need to be in both places, experience life on both sides before you can really compare. I just can't concieve of the push factors not weighing in as much as the pull, or not factoring in at all.

I think it also depends on where you come back to: something like Midstream estate? Complexes with 24hour security? Affluent areas? Private schools? Discovery health med aid, private health care, etc?

Then yes, I guess it isn't so bad here.

[Donovan83]

Well put McCabes... I opened News24 today and quickly closed it after reading "Girl is raped and then set on fire."

Not that we don't have crime here - someone tried to steal an ATM in Perth over the weekend

[Eyebrow]

And the poor girl (9y) survived and was lying next to the R300 until found the next day... It is just so upsetting.

[Donovan83]

And this happened not even 2km from where my parents live: http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Protesters-loot-West-Rand-homes-20140121

[Mara]

Well, all I can say is, that I have never, not even for one moment, ever thought of returning to RSA to live! Not in a million years! I do not even go on holiday there anymore, I rather meet my sisters in the USA.

[Eyebrow]

That is a bit scary Donovan83.

Were your parents affected?

[SurferMan]

I will never go back, not for that paying double for almost all key services cos you cant rely on the one the State should have provided in the first place, noise, aggression, barking, taxis, chaos, broken lights, useless service at almost every turn, beggars/carhijackers/window smashers, constant vigilance, theft, riots, window washers, car guards etc. 58 million people and only 2.1 million paying meaningful tax, just cannot work. When too many people have climbed on welfare/dole, the ship will sink. And once you have people suckling from the welfare teat, it is largely not possible to wean them. That is proven time and again. SA will take a lot longer to burn than many of the doomsaysers reckon, cos it has more to burn through to show rockbottom, but the direction they are following is there.

if anyone doubts the overall intent, read the Marx manifesto, then think on the current policies....how well they line up, and think on where that will land SA in the end...

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.
4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capitaland an exclusive monopoly.
6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing intocultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
8. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of the population over the country.
10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form and combination of education with industrial production.^[15]

At least for the most part here in Aus i can see my tax dollars at work. yes there is corruption and the pollies do pinch and waste, but I can see my dollars at work.

Here I don't get bullied and propaganda at how well off I am and how I must give away my hard earned wealth and possessions. (They get stolen before that most times anyways) I get told how grateful I must be that I can own property and how lucky I am to have a car etc. I have not had one interview in Aus where I was told, "sorry mate, you don't have enough melanin...your great experience and ability wise, but ya from the wrong side of the tracks"

When we left SA in 2010, at the airport some asswipe "brothers" tried to force my trolleys off of us. When I firmly refused one grabbed my wife by the wrist and told her "that's not how things work here...." Lucky for me, I'm 186cm and 125kg, I returned the aggression and almost snapped the dumb pricks arm. (For sure tore some ligaments....) They beat a hasty retreat. Tried to then beg us for R100 cos "we have no money.." just a constant entitlement culture. I'm with Mara, no thanks.

Ill watch the David Attenborough shows....I'm sure Ill get some stick for this post, but that's my view. If you are heading back for a visit, stay safe, enjoy etc. Remember the Number 1 rule for Africa, your fast...or you're food!!!

[McCabes]

I'm sorry... I can't believe it, but I don't agree

Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

I'm pretty sure the movement is more to get EVERY person to own some land. Apparently the green ID books are meaningless and you have nothing that proves you are a Saffer before you own some land. Who'd have thunk.

A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

Ok, this one I can't really argue with...

Abolition of all right of inheritance.

I'm really not seeing this... in a country where the "way things are" usually follow western or Zulu cultural standards before any others, I'm not seeing that people will let this happen. Unless they enforce it along a racial divide. Then, yes.

Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

I guess I can't argue here either, especially as I suspect this will also be done along the racial divide + people who don't agree with them.

Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capitaland an exclusive monopoly.

I wouldn't underestimate the banks in this one. I think the government understands that they're part of the reason things haven't fallen apart even more than they have, but if they do move in this direction it should definitely set huge alarm bells going.

Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.

Not seeing this - unless they cut off or censor internet, and also I don't see the taxis allowing the state to take over their businesses - what happened when the taxis said no to e-tolls? yup yup, suddenly they are exempt.

Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing intocultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

Not sure this would be a bad thing? I think we could use more people who know how to look after the soil.

Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

... also thinking this wouldn't be such a bad thing? What am I missing? In my eyes, we really need to be doing more to protect food security and build up the farming industry again.

Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of the population over the country.

It does look like they are planning to do this one soon, so maybe that's the start of it.

Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form and combination of education with industrial production.^[15]

Not sure that this would be a bad idea either. We need more kids getting an education, and we need kids getting an education that properly equips them for working and holding onto a job.

I also have my doubts as to the competency of the people in charge. I mean, even if this is their plan of action, they're more likely to fail than to succeed... (sorry if that's harsh)... I can't see one plan they've succeeded with, though will acknowledge that I've wondered before if they are actually intending to mess up the education because they couldn't be doing a better job of destroying it if they were trying.

Don't get me wrong, in general I agree with the direction we are heading, but I'm not sure they will follow the Marxist stuff exactly. I cannot see Zuma saying "sure no problem" to taking inheritances away after he's let them build zumaville for him.

Edited January 22, 2014 by McCabes

[SurferMan]

I'm sorry... I can't believe it, but I don't agree

Let me give some context....

Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

I'm pretty sure the movement is more to get EVERY person to own some land. Apparently the green ID books are meaningless and you have nothing that proves you are a Saffer before you own some land. Who'd have thunk.

The intent is to ruin stepped pricing so that Bantry Bay costs the same as Mitchells Plain. Rights will also be restricted on the grounds that it creates "social tension" so its best for the State to keep it for the citizens.....

A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

Ok, this one I can't really argue with...

Abolition of all right of inheritance.

I'm really not seeing this... in a country where the "way things are" usually follow western or Zulu cultural standards before any others, I'm not seeing that people will let this happen. Unless they enforce it along a racial divide. Then, yes.

Notice how taxation on inheritance is going up...I also doubt this will be fully put in place anytime soon, but look at the "use it or lose it rule for farms coming" Its another stealth technique for taking something that is not yours. Just like being taxed in urban areas for not developing your land. Why? Why cant I leave my ground empty if I want to, its mine? Cos the council makes no money on you!

Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

I guess I can't argue here either, especially as I suspect this will also be done along the racial divide + people who don't agree with them.

This has been said by the ANC many times. The new green paper on land makes this a new rule.

Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capitaland an exclusive monopoly.

I wouldn't underestimate the banks in this one. I think the government understands that they're part of the reason things haven't fallen apart even more than they have, but if they do move in this direction it should definitely set huge alarm bells going.

Agree, but there is already a "State bank" the Development Bank. In name only it sounds different, but its a loan vehicle for the politically connected, funded by you, the taxpayer.

Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.

Not seeing this - unless they cut off or censor internet, and also I don't see the taxis allowing the state to take over their businesses - what happened when the taxis said no to e-tolls? yup yup, suddenly they are exempt.

Already is, Telkom, who also own stakes in Vodacom, Cell C and MTN....They built Gautrain, and now city bus services etc. Now you have e-tolling to cost you even more....Your own car means freedom and independence from the State...

Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing intocultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

Not sure this would be a bad thing? I think we could use more people who know how to look after the soil.

I do! How well have they run, SAA, Telkom, ESKOM, Coega, Pebble Bed Modular Reactor, DENEL, ARMSCOR, SABC, all of them need billions in endless loans to keep running.

Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

... also thinking this wouldn't be such a bad thing? What am I missing? In my eyes, we really need to be doing more to protect food security and build up the farming industry again.

It means you abolish competition cos you set the rules at the farm gate. It forces out any innovation cos you are forced to play by a set of cost rules. Nobody tries to excel, cos you get pulled down. Its designed to dumb down the whole system. We lose competitivness with foreign markets, and now only the State can provide labour and food/goods/services from those industries. See how it works?

Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of the population over the country.

It does look like they are planning to do this one soon, so maybe that's the start of it.

Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form and combination of education with industrial production.^[15]

Not sure that this would be a bad idea either. We need more kids getting an education, and we need kids getting an education that properly equips them for working and holding onto a job.

I also have my doubts as to the competency of the people in charge. I mean, even if this is their plan of action, they're more likely to fail than to succeed... (sorry if that's harsh)... I can't see one plan they've succeeded with, though will acknowledge that I've wondered before if they are actually intending to mess up the education because they couldn't be doing a better job of destroying it if they were trying.

Don't get me wrong, in general I agree with the direction we are heading, but I'm not sure they will follow the Marxist stuff exactly. I cannot see Zuma saying "sure no problem" to taking inheritances away after he's let them build zumaville for him.

They are 100% MArx/Leninsts, read their manifestos. Its written there. The point Im making about all this is that a lot of this is by stealth. So called "Majority rule" or rule of the people. That is why China, Korea etc all have things called "The peoples party, the peoples park, the peoples xxxx" its all a lie.

Edited January 22, 2014 by SurferMan

[McCabes]

Good argument

Scary stuff

[SurferMan]

Anyways, what I can say with some conviction is that the Gov has done some things really well, like give water/housing to many, but man alive in the process take trillions and waste n lie along the way. I still cannot fathom that JZ didn't know how much was being spent at Nkandla. 200 million is ridiculous, and its his PRIVATE residence, its not Tuinhuis or Ndlovu...just disgusting the way they gobble tax money up. I see now there is the little matter of the satellite for 1.2 Billion. And the submarines rotting in the docks, the planes that cant fly cos there is no money and pilots.

EISCH. Overall they are not doing a great job in my view.

Good argument

Scary stuff

Yeah, but it needn't be that way. If we did things differently 20 years ago, there would be an army of young scientists, engineers, math folk, etc cranking up ideas and innovations. Instead thanks to the near worthless 30% pass rate, they can look forward to joining their fathers on the pavements and roadsides with hand painted signs. What a waste and a shame. My niece got over 90% averages on all 9 her subjects on HG, and was turned down at at the medical schools cos she was melanin deficient. She bailed overseas and is now a full scholarship student, at the top of her class. I wonder where she will put her tax money? Yip, NOT in SA.

I would have cut a deal with the stock of teachers, saying, Ill pay you a premium, stay on for 5 more years, and teach the new blokes the ropes. If the pass rates AND the quality of education stays level or goes up, you get a bonus. Then the new generation would at least have a chance. Sigh.

[rozellem]

Kids and I came back from almost 8 weeks in Cape Town/Boland/Garden Route yesterday. Its still a beautiful part of the world, the few people I know who have not emigrated were lovely and the food good (my waist says). But, it has changed so much, and hardly any for the better. Things cost a bomb and people are left behind with no one able or willing to lend a hand. People and pets are trigger happy. The family guard dog (4yrs old sheep dog) ended up biting my two year old, over the 8 weeks, IN THE FACE, a total of 3 times. YES, you read correctly! He ONLY bit my 4 year old once, on the arm. He did not not make a peep to wake us the night they ransacked my dads workshop. Or the two nights they cut through the fence and snooped around the suburban garden while we slept.

No thank you. Leave me to clean my own little house in a leafy street in Sydney. Where my kids ride their bikes outside in the cul de sac till after dark. Where nobody locks, much less close their door, so that the neighbourhood kids walk past while I sit on the toilet (greeting friendly). I dont envy my very successful friends in RSA, who live in fancy security estates, where they pay a fortune for everything, where employment is a political game not based on merit, where they have become addicted to paying for "service" in every aspect of their lives till they loose basic human skills. Where you are only slightly shocked when you find the nanny you share your house with has not only systematically syphoned off some of your most treasured possessions but had also found a willing buyer and had been plotting to sell your baby. No siree!

Edited to add: The 18month old boy is my very close friends child, nobody would want to steal mine .

Edited January 22, 2014 by rozellem

[McCabes]

rozellem - is that baby-selling thing really true?

My mom did discover after my dad passed away that their domestic had stolen a bunch of her family heirlooms and the more valuable coins from my dad's collection.

[rozellem]

rozellem - is that baby-selling thing really true?

Sadly, yes. Boy is 18months, parents wealthy but very busy, so nanny had lots of sole care. Police raided nannies house after she stole lots of stuff, they discovered she had cloned mothers identity and qualifications. Police discovered the baby stealing information. What made me and my friend convinced the police were right was when they discovered one of the little boy's blankies (sleep aid) at this woman's shack. There were only ever 3 blankies and no reason why she would need to have one at her house, but with the police's theory from the evidence they found, it make perfect but horrible sense.

[MrsJ]

@DanieR Thanks for the reply, very interesting. I must say I am quite looking forward to the next election, I think it will really show us where SA might be heading. I do think people from all walks of life are fed up with the ANC.

@ Donovan83 I agree with you, my thinking is even if SA does turn around, I would want Aus citizenship and property investment anyway. If there is a positive shift it will take many generations before the crime situation is under control, and (politics aside) that is my real fear with this country.

[SurferMan]

Damn!

Well, we had about seven maids and about 8 or so garden technicians and every one bar one, stole me blind, and I busted them. No point calling the cops, they just say lodge a complaint, get a case number and claim from insurance...I remember trying to "follow the process" once.....NEVER again.

I built four of them houses, paid for almost all of them for schooling and paid for extra food(bar the food they stole...) paid medical and transport and cellphone vouchers and clothes. My extra and trust was rewarded by theft, lies etc. the one girls son died three times...always over Xmas and I had to pay the taxi to the eastern cape and the cow and the food...funny that.

But one standout bloke, a Malawian, bucked every trend. He never stole from me, and one day we were chilling in the lapa having a beer, and I asked him why all the other guys stole and he never did. His answer was awesome. He said, if I steal, I'm done here, I live in luxury, I have DSTV, a home on your private property, you have put me through courses, paid for my doctors, pay for me to go home every year, with my arms full of food and gifts, you paid for my child to be born, why should I betray you? He said in Malawi they have finished trying to take from the rich, it doesn't end well.

I guess my point just reinforces the above, while some experience all of this, many/most do, and it's too much. One of my peak stories is being "raided" by Labour for non-compliance, and then when I handed the so called inspectors the evidence, they turned and beat the complainant.. Classic. They did threaten my kids and one Asswipe tried to spear my missus with garden fork through the gate. All I will say is he did not walk off the property on his own...he was err, assisted.

[DanieR]

MrsJ thank you. I am also excited about the coming election as I think it will be the first time people are voting with some post Madiba ANC experience. Some believe the outcome is easy to predict, but I tend to disagree.

I certainly also agree with your second point regarding Australian Citizenship and investment. We are so grateful to have that, and when I have funds available I invest it in Australia.

[SurferMan]

DanieR,

You are one smart lad mate. Even if the :censored: back home gets sorted, all your dollars gets a factor of ten multiplier if you ever decide to go back. Me I'd rather just stay here.

[Bronwyn&Co]

We hired a Mozambiquan illegal immigrant to work in our garden for a while. He was a lovely person. We even left him alone painting in our house and helping with renovations, he never took a cent. Promoted him to work in our business and trained him up for years. We tried to help him get legal citizenship but it was difficult. He turned out to be our best, most reliable worker. Once he got beaten up so badly in the xenophibic township violence he was in hospital for weeks, but he returned to work. I heard about 2 years ago he died of Aids. He was probably 26 or so. RIP Elvis. So sad :(