Visiting SA

[Donovan83]

So I've headed back to SA for a while (for my birthday and also to get a bit of a break and get some perspective again). I'm here for about 3 weeks.

It's weird being here. First off, Perth really doesn't feel all that far away from Johannesburg. Secondly, it's eerily familiar and feels like I never left. If I sit and concentrate I could probably fool myself into thinking that the last 6 months of living there were all a dream.

So far my experience has been different to what I expected. I thought I'd arrive back and immediately feel stressed and feel vilified for my leaving in that everything would look horrible and be super "African" but actually it wasn't like that at all. For the first day or so, I kinda wondered what all the fuss was about? It's quite nice here actually. However, after 2 days of alarms, gates, robot vendors, car guards, rude service, stupid service, traffic, broken robots, potholes, Joburg aggression etc I am now reminded of why I live in Perth and not here. This place has good points, but unless you are extremely rich and are able to live in a security estate and not have to work then it really sucks here. And it's so NOISY! Good grief, the neighborhood dogs just never shut the hell up and nobody does anything about it?! I've heard more yapping dogs in the 3 days I've been here than I've heard in all my time in Perth. Doesn't it annoy anyone else?!

So yeah, it's pretty much how I remember it, but its taken me a while to get back in touch with it all.

One big thing that I also have forgotten is the feeling of almost-guilt for being one of the haves and not one of the have nots. There's nothing quite like the look of hate and jealousy you get when you politely decline to buy some Ranband (fake Raybans hehe) at a traffic light.

Anyway, enough of this rambling. Going to enjoy the nice cheap eating out (a meal out for under $10 including soft drinks? Take away for under $6?!) and spending time with friends and family, but I am not sure I could ever comfortable stay here again.

[Donovan83]

Or maybe "we" just do this thing called "hard work" and "earning" a decent life rather than demanding it for free. Not every white person lived a privileged existence.

[Springjock]

Yip, I'm so 'lucky'. It's like, I think of something and it just falls into my lap.

Being 'blessed' rules!

[Johnno]

Seriously, just think about your comments. I'm not even going to try and debate the topic further because I reckon your collective IQ would not surpass the highest school year achieved by either of you! You're typical "I'm okay Jack, 'eff the rest attitude" is so typical that I'm often embarrassed to admit that I'm from SA because then by default I'm put in the same basket as your type.

"You have not lived until you've helped someone who cannot pay you back". I heard that 10 mins ago on "Today Tonight CH7" where a bunch of Aussies helped fellow countrymen who are not so fortunate and needed a helping hand.

Edited June 10, 2013 by Johnno

[Springjock]

Careful now

[OubaasDik]

Or maybe "we" just do this thing called "hard work" and "earning" a decent life rather than demanding it for free. Not every white person lived a privileged existence.

Helps to have a good start in life as well. Parents who insist upon learning. NOT having the ANC in charge of schools.

I wonder sometmes how things would have worked out for me if I happened to have been born differently in SA ...... just a thought.

Edited to add that I hadn't seen the 9:18 comment when I posted this.

Edited June 10, 2013 by OubaasDik

[Search]

Party mense is darem maar dik van die :censored:, *censored* weet!

[MrsJ]

Just quickly adding to the last couple of comments… To have had a good education means you have had a much better start than the majority of people in SA, and yes in South African terms that is privileged (blessed)! I'm sure the majority of us aren't heirs to great fortunes and have had hardships, but then again you can't really compare this to someone having no chance of a good education from the get go. On the other hand, to be successful with that education takes a lot of hard work so you shouldn't be made to feel guilty for any of your accomplishments. And you are allowed to have a moan every now and then!

I just think of the really naturally smart domestic workers that I have met over the years that would have done so well having the chance of a proper education. Ladies that love to discuss the latest news and politics and do everything possible to better themselves. Really hard workers who will never get the chance to be anything else. So please don't play down what you do have because I promise you so many people have a lot less!

Anyway to get back to the topic, I find it really interesting how people can have such different experiences. I for one, really enjoy the vibrant cashiers from Pick n pay and woolies. Yes some of them are rude but the majority are always chatting with a smile their faces despite their long work days. It is something I am really going to miss! On the other side of the coin, I was totally shocked when I went to joburg for the first time in years to visit family. A rude lady in a bmw nearly knocked me down as I was about to cross to get to the petrol station shop. I expected the cars to slow down and stop when they saw a pedestrian, boy I was wrong... welcome to Joburg!

Edited June 10, 2013 by MrsJ

[Donovan83]

Yip, I'm so 'lucky'. It's like, I think of something and it just falls into my lap.

Being 'blessed' rules!

I know, I basically just woke up one day and I owned my own home, had lots of money and just an abundance of being just so lucky and all I had to do was exist as a privileged person.

Seriously, just think about your comments. I'm not even going to try and debate the topic further because I reckon your collective IQ would not surpass the highest school year achieved by either of you! You're typical "I'm okay Jack, 'eff the rest attitude" is so typical that I'm often embarrassed to admit that I'm from SA because then by default I'm put in the same basket as your type.

"You have not lived until you've helped someone who cannot pay you back". I heard that 10 mins ago on "Today Tonight CH7" where a bunch of Aussies helped fellow countrymen who are not so fortunate and needed a helping hand.

I don't mean to give the impression that "I'm alright Jack". I think my bitterness probably comes from being branded as a previously advantaged person that isn't deserving of a good life in the country I was born in. Moving here wasn't only motivated by crime and the usual whinges we all have, I was outright told I may not go and work in my dream job because I wasn't black enough. Cry me a river - must I now go cry to the world about how I'm not being persecuted, or should I do something to get myself (and hopefully my family, too) out of there?

Guess what my dream job was? Being a lecturer... earning a humble academic salary with a humble life. Why was it my dream job? Because of the sense of community, connectedness and that feeling of helping other people achieve their own success. I worked in this job in a junior capacity for a year or so and in that time I helped plenty of people from all walks of life (one guy was even a taxi driver that ferried passengers around after hours to put himself through varsity). I hope that I can do something with my life here that gives me the same job satisfaction as I had there.

Maybe my situation is unique (doubt it), but I feel like someone who wanted to contribute and uplift but who was excluded because of my race - when the previous generation did it, it was racism. Now it's just how things are and acceptable. There was a time I was really pro-RSA and very much into building that promised future. After how many years of being blamed for things I had no part in, for things I tried to in a small way change only to have my contribution thrown back in my face, I must now also face the accusation of having things easier because I may have indirectly benefitted from an unfair system? That same system that is now being applied in reverse to the extent that my only realistic chance at a good future is to leave?

I get the impression this has been discussed before though... I don't usually get involved in this Just makes me bitter about things because I always have this feeling when I watch footage of RSA in the late 90s/early 2000s that at some point the country was on the right track and that somehow this wasn't how it had to be.

[Donovan83]

Just quickly adding to the last couple of comments… To have had a good education means you have had a much better start than the majority of people in SA, and yes in South African terms that is privileged (blessed)! I'm sure the majority of us aren't heirs to great fortunes and have had hardships, but then again you can't really compare this to someone having no chance of a good education from the get go. On the other hand, to be successful with that education takes a lot of hard work so you shouldn't be made to feel guilty for any of your accomplishments. And you are allowed to have a moan every now and then!

I just think of the really naturally smart domestic workers that I have met over the years that would have done so well having the chance of a proper education. Ladies that love to discuss the latest news and politics and do everything possible to better themselves. Really hard workers who will never get the chance to be anything else. So please don't play down what you do have because I promise you so many people have a lot less!

Well said

[Johnno]

I know, I basically just woke up one day and I owned my own home, had lots of money and just an abundance of being just so lucky and all I had to do was exist as a privileged person.

I don't mean to give the impression that "I'm alright Jack". I think my bitterness probably comes from being branded as a previously advantaged person that isn't deserving of a good life in the country I was born in. Moving here wasn't only motivated by crime and the usual whinges we all have, I was outright told I may not go and work in my dream job because I wasn't black enough. Cry me a river - must I now go cry to the world about how I'm not being persecuted, or should I do something to get myself (and hopefully my family, too) out of there?

Guess what my dream job was? Being a lecturer... earning a humble academic salary with a humble life. Why was it my dream job? Because of the sense of community, connectedness and that feeling of helping other people achieve their own success. I worked in this job in a junior capacity for a year or so and in that time I helped plenty of people from all walks of life (one guy was even a taxi driver that ferried passengers around after hours to put himself through varsity). I hope that I can do something with my life here that gives me the same job satisfaction as I had there.

Maybe my situation is unique (doubt it), but I feel like someone who wanted to contribute and uplift but who was excluded because of my race - when the previous generation did it, it was racism. Now it's just how things are and acceptable. There was a time I was really pro-RSA and very much into building that promised future. After how many years of being blamed for things I had no part in, for things I tried to in a small way change only to have my contribution thrown back in my face, I must now also face the accusation of having things easier because I may have indirectly benefitted from an unfair system? That same system that is now being applied in reverse to the extent that my only realistic chance at a good future is to leave?

I get the impression this has been discussed before though... I don't usually get involved in this Just makes me bitter about things because I always have this feeling when I watch footage of RSA in the late 90s/early 2000s that at some point the country was on the right track and that somehow this wasn't how it had to be.

Donovan83, I'm pleased that you have identified your "bitterness". Many people don't and they go through life never ridding themselves of being bitter. I agree with all you've written in your post above but don't let it consume you. I was also bitter but that was then, I've moved on and I'm a whole lot happier

Edited June 10, 2013 by Johnno

[Johnno]

Just quickly adding to the last couple of comments… To have had a good education means you have had a much better start than the majority of people in SA, and yes in South African terms that is privileged (blessed)! I'm sure the majority of us aren't heirs to great fortunes and have had hardships, but then again you can't really compare this to someone having no chance of a good education from the get go. On the other hand, to be successful with that education takes a lot of hard work so you shouldn't be made to feel guilty for any of your accomplishments. And you are allowed to have a moan every now and then!

I just think of the really naturally smart domestic workers that I have met over the years that would have done so well having the chance of a proper education. Ladies that love to discuss the latest news and politics and do everything possible to better themselves. Really hard workers who will never get the chance to be anything else. So please don't play down what you do have because I promise you so many people have a lot less!

Anyway to get back to the topic, I find it really interesting how people can have such different experiences. I for one, really enjoy the vibrant cashiers from Pick n pay and woolies. Yes some of them are rude but the majority are always chatting with a smile their faces despite their long work days. It is something I am really going to miss! On the other side of the coin, I was totally shocked when I went to joburg for the first time in years to visit family. A rude lady in a bmw nearly knocked me down as I was about to cross to get to the petrol station shop. I expected the cars to slow down and stop when they saw a pedestrian, boy I was wrong... welcome to Joburg!

I agree 100%. I also found your last paragraph very interesting because when I was in SA last year, I performed a little experiment. It all started at Jhb Domestic terminal at Wimpy having breakfast and waiting for our flight to CT. The staff were really friendly, even the guy who cleans the toilets greeted with a big smile. Yes, no doubt soliciting a tip but he was polite at 6am and all he had to look fwd to for the day was cleaning a busy public toilet! Back at the Wimpy I witnessed a very rude Afrikaans bloke who snapped at a waitress because his eggs were too runny. If he spoke to a waitress like that in Oz he'd probably have worn his breakfast on his nicely laundered business shirt! This is where my experiment and I made an effort to watch peoples interaction with each other. From air hostesses to waiters in restaurants and check out ladies at the shops, even car guards and I was shocked at seeing how badly they were treated. I decided to do the opposite and greeted people with a smile, thanked waiters for taking my plate from the table and thanked the petrol pump jockey with a smile and a joke. I tipped some and not others. I asked a few check out ladies how their day was and it was infectious. I don't for one moment profess to have all the answers to solve any problems but it made my stay very memorable.

PS! We had some Aussie friends visit CT with us to attend a wedding. They had never been to SA and to this day they cannot stop talking about the friendly people, "the vibe" and the great time they had. They've already been back for another visit and are planning an extended stay. Just goes to show, it's in the eye of the beholder.

[mainewolfe]

Wow Johnno that's a bit rich I get that you want to help the less fortunate but your comment about white privilege and I.q is downright insulting and irksome. Bringing luggage bags worth of second hand clothes and old and used footy boots doesn't really help at the end of the day. I've worked with those who are struggling and live in abject poverty so I know that this simply won't help. Perhaps since you feel so 'strongly' about the plight of those less fortunate, maybe you need to perhaps go further than your 'feel good' actions of second hand clothes and old footy boots and spend more time in South Africa and maybe stretch your actions beyond what makes you feel good. Oh and by the way, kids in first world countries do know the true meaning of poverty. Don't make the assumption that because you live in a first world country, you are ignorant when it comes to knowing about poverty. In California, there are children with unemployed parents, no roof over their head and not enough food to go around. Similarly in Australia, many families are struggling to make ends meet. Poverty is not exclusively a third world problem. Oh and one last thing, I think people know how 'lucky' they are to be living in a first world country. Your not so gentle reminders are starting to annoy more than a few. And with this, I'm leaving the board. I refuse to share a forum with narrow-minded and ignorant views. Jordy or any other admin please remove me from the forum.

[Donovan83]

Donovan83, I'm pleased that you have identified your "bitterness". Many people don't and they go through life never ridding themselves of being bitter. I agree with all you've written in your post above but don't let it consume you. I was also bitter but that was then, I've moved on and I'm a whole lot happier

Yeah I'm slowly but surely moving past it. I'm finding that the longer I live in Australia the more I'm getting a different (and more positive) view on the world. I'm also, thankfully, returning to my normal self.

[Johnno]

Wow Johnno that's a bit rich I get that you want to help the less fortunate but your comment about white privilege and I.q is downright insulting and irksome. Bringing luggage bags worth of second hand clothes and old and used footy boots doesn't really help at the end of the day. I've worked with those who are struggling and live in abject poverty so I know that this simply won't help. Perhaps since you feel so 'strongly' about the plight of those less fortunate, maybe you need to perhaps go further than your 'feel good' actions of second hand clothes and old footy boots and spend more time in South Africa and maybe stretch your actions beyond what makes you feel good. Oh and by the way, kids in first world countries do know the true meaning of poverty. Don't make the assumption that because you live in a first world country, you are ignorant when it comes to knowing about poverty. In California, there are children with unemployed parents, no roof over their head and not enough food to go around. Similarly in Australia, many families are struggling to make ends meet. Poverty is not exclusively a third world problem. Oh and one last thing, I think people know how 'lucky' they are to be living in a first world country. Your not so gentle reminders are starting to annoy more than a few. And with this, I'm leaving the board. I refuse to share a forum with narrow-minded and ignorant views. Jordy or any other admin please remove me from the forum.

mainewolfe, no need to feel guilty about you fortunate position in life, just be considerate to those who are less fortunate. Let me assure you that up-liftment does not come in the form of a R10 note but rathera sense of meaning and acknowledgement, even when the present and future is bleak for those kids playing soccer bare feet in the cold. I can't afford to give them enough money to remove them from their rather bleak situation or pay for their education but if putting a smile on

their face and allowing them to live their dream which is playing soccer then I'm really happy for them. BTW, I gave the boots to their school teacher who told me that this has enabled them to enter into a school league where wearing boots was compulsory. One of our family friends in SA, a teacher has kept us up to date and some of these kids have managed to play for the local club, it's changed their lives!

If you're comparing the norm, which in SA is the unemployed, poor, homeless and hungry, with Australia and California where poverty is the exception, not the norm then I honestly believe that you're so far out of touch with reality that you've completely misunderstood or failed to comprehend the very basics of my post.

SA is not without its problems, frustrations and shocking stories. I will never deny the deeply disturbing violent crime and corruption that plagues SA but amongst all that doom 'n gloom that was no doubt the trigger for many of us to leave, there's a lot of good people where a smile, a thank you or the smallest of helping hands would make a wonderful difference. But yet some folks still manage to get upset and complain about a slow internet connection, standing in a cue to buy a $1.50 toasted sandwich or complaining about unfriendly check out clerks.

[Johnno]

Yeah I'm slowly but surely moving past it. I'm finding that the longer I live in Australia the more I'm getting a different (and more positive) view on the world. I'm also, thankfully, returning to my normal self.

And that's a wonderful thing. You sound like a person with a lot of compassion but SA just got to you and made you bitter. I'm sure once you've "returned to normal" you'll be a lot more understanding and compassionate and may even view SA in a different light. I spent my first few years away from SA trying to hate the place but every time I went back I found that I had so much in common and could relate to so much more than I allowed myself to do when I lived there. Despite the slow and expensive internet connection and the long cues I really enjoy my visits to SA.

Many ex Saffas mistake a positive outlook for being a tree hugging libby who wants to "make a difference" and save SA from becoming another failed African state. Further from the truth one cannot get. I'm all for promoting that the sooner people realise that SA is just another African country the better. Don't have first world expectations for a third world country because you will be disappointed!

[HansaPlease]

But yet some folks still manage to get upset and complain about a slow internet connection, standing in a cue to buy a $1.50 toasted sandwich or complaining about unfriendly check out clerks.

Since you keep mentioning the sandwich, and I was the one who brought it up, ok, I'll bite.

I don't really understand what's wrong with not being happy with bad service? To make excuses and keep saying: "it's ok, it's just Africa, this is what you can expect..." Is never really going to solve the problem. Where do you draw the line? Poor education standards? It's ok, it's Africa, that's par for the course. Violent crime? It's ok, Africa again, if you have a problem with it don't go there, just be thankful you're safe in your bed in Aus...

Much like mainewolfe I guess I get annoyed at being told to be thankful for what I have. How do you know I'm not? As a matter of fact I'm very thankful for what I have, and very sympathetic to the plight of those who have less. Check my other posts on the subject. Just because I don't exactly enjoy being stressed out at the chaos that goes on in SA, doesn't mean I swan around bein rude to locals...

I also believe in treating people with respect and agree that most of the race problems in SA are because of a never ending cycle of people treating each other with contempt.

We probably do agree on a lot of things, I guess I just don't like being preached to.

[HansaPlease]

PS: mainewolfe, don't go!

[AndreaL]

PS: mainewolfe, don't go!

Yes Mainewolfe, your contribution to this forum is very valuable.

[Donovan83]

.

Edited June 11, 2013 by Donovan83

[funtobeaussiechick]

Wow Johnno that's a bit rich I get that you want to help the less fortunate but your comment about white privilege and I.q is downright insulting and irksome. Bringing luggage bags worth of second hand clothes and old and used footy boots doesn't really help at the end of the day. I've worked with those who are struggling and live in abject poverty so I know that this simply won't help. Perhaps since you feel so 'strongly' about the plight of those less fortunate, maybe you need to perhaps go further than your 'feel good' actions of second hand clothes and old footy boots and spend more time in South Africa and maybe stretch your actions beyond what makes you feel good. Oh and by the way, kids in first world countries do know the true meaning of poverty. Don't make the assumption that because you live in a first world country, you are ignorant when it comes to knowing about poverty. In California, there are children with unemployed parents, no roof over their head and not enough food to go around. Similarly in Australia, many families are struggling to make ends meet. Poverty is not exclusively a third world problem. Oh and one last thing, I think people know how 'lucky' they are to be living in a first world country. Your not so gentle reminders are starting to annoy more than a few. And with this, I'm leaving the board. I refuse to share a forum with narrow-minded and ignorant views. Jordy or any other admin please remove me from the forum.

Mainewolfe, do not let the Johnno upset you. Not all of us grew up with parents who got us through fancy schools yada yada. I refuse to feel 'guilty'. Johnno can say whatever he wants to and if he feels he should feel that he should help then he can. I for one have had a hard life and took my opportunities when they were presented however small and do not subscribe to the failure of some people to better themselves. Sure there are exceptions but please bleeding hearts go and help those in need if you wish and wind up with a hole in your head. Nothing wrong with helping, but some of us came to Oz to get away from the corrupt, incompetent country that we all love called South Africa. I am a survivor and Australia has provided a new opportunity and I will help those in need here. Sorry Johnno, all I am trying to say is that some of us had it tough and cannot feel responsible for working our guts out to be where we are and somehow have to compensate. I am opening up a can of worms here. Pick n Pay can stay right where it is and I do not miss it at all.

[Springjock]

I feel the same. I wont go into detail but over a period of 4 years, i raised over R15m towards the fight against HIV/AIDS. I got my hands dirty in the townships and put a whole lot more into SA than I ever got out.

[Lavender]

We have a Alsation near us that barks every night! That is in Helensvale on the Gold Coast. I think S/Africans makes it sound worse than it is when they have been to S/Africa. My children just came back and although they have their problems in RSA they were blown away by the good food, good service and friendly people(black). Their first visit in 6.5 years. They do prefer Aus but they did not think it was really that bad. There are a lot of things here that is also very irritating. Not allowed to work on anything unless you have a licence and just try and get one - OMW! We think it is just a money making scheme all the rules and regulations. Then I do feel so at home as every single day there has been a murder, stabbing, home invasion etc. Maybe not as violent but it is there. Aus is a lovely place to be but no need to run RSA down all the time!

[DanieR]

After 6 years in Australia and now 1,5 years back in South Africa I have to admit that many of the"push" factors in SA, as well as "pull" factors in Australia are shrinking. And it is not because we are just becoming comfortable again!

The attraction to move across 10 years ago was certainly stronger than it is now. Australia is faced with a challenging post-resource economy where jobs are scarce, governments cuts impact cleanliness and service delivery, and crime grows. On a positive note Australia has some responsible leaders who can turn things around if they can just put their minds to it!

Just my opinion..

[MrsJ]

@DanieR Just out of interest, what "push" factors do you think have shrunk? I always like hearing from people than have done both Australia and South Africa and have a balanced view.

[DanieR]

MrsJ your question is a good one, and I should point out that I partly view the "push" to be smaller as a consequence of the grass not being so green elsewhere. I also noticed that the President's poor performance is actual highlighting and uniting people against poor leadership, corruption, crime and service delivery problems. There are amazing initiatives happening behind the curtains, and businesses and ordinary folk are certainly not as complacent as I thought prior to returning.

The combination of a more educated and informed generation, and with the majority being tired of incompetent leadership, is a recipe for interesting things to come!

Finally as a Christian I believe there are few place where so many prayers are sent to heaven, and God always take notice!

My intention is not to downplay Australia in any way, but only to share the other side as well.