back from sa

[Emille]

i have just returned from my trip to south africa and these are my observations:

life goes on as usual in sa - i have found this in the past - when you sit here in aus you think is impossible 'to live' in south africa, that things really go backwards from worse to worse and that everybody wants to emigrate

truth is people go on with their lifes and especially in cape town and bloem which i visited, life goes on as in the past and people actually enjoy living there

i dont think apart from the usual crime, corruption and unsafety of the place, theres much difference from when i visited 2 years ago

i personally felt very paranoid and unsafe - but its more to do with me being used to a safe and 'crime free' australia than necessarily the situation in south africa

cape town is as beautiful as ever - but i still prefer the civilised society of australia above 'beauty'

people drive like maniacs and you realise how little weight is given to 'life'

corruption has reached tremendous levels (http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2013-03-13-auditor-general-reports-some-light-at-the-end-of-dark-depressing-tunnel/#.UU59lr9r1S8)

people are very friendly

the anc will rule forever - i know when you live there you need to do as much as you can but i really wondered what the whole point is with opposing the anc (da etc)

the rape and murder rate is tremendous - and this includes all people - i.e. pistorius, recent murder in griekwastad (son allegedly raped his sister and murdered his parents and sister - this is a white teenage boy - http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/details-of-griekwastad-murders-heard-1.1369205#.UU5ycL9r1S8), weird murder 'trend' in cape town where body parts get dismantled http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/murdered-girl-s-last-words-1.1459054#.UU58Mr9r1S8)

south africa has become so expensive - cheaper than aus obviously (well that includes 95% of the worlds countries) - e.g. R100 is the same now as 'R20' was when I lived there 4 years ago

to go up table mountain R500 for 2 adults and 1 chilld / to have a coffee in a coffee shop is R15-20 / a main course is anything from R80-R200 / to go into cape point for a family of 4 is R300 / a shirt in woolworths R350 - i dont know how people afford these things on rand salary (unless salaries increased a lot which i dont know)

family will enjoy your visit and go out of their way when you are there but really they have moved on

(rich) whites in cape town still living in their bubble - while less than 20 km from them you find some of the poorest people on earth - an anomaly which i find increasingly disturbing

i am glad we came back alive and well without incidents

i am so pleased and fortunate to live in australia

ps on a side issue, we went with singapore airlines which was tremendous - the best service i have ever experienced - no wonder their economy class has been voted best in the world

Edited March 24, 2013 by Emille

[Donovan83]

I'm headed back to visit next week (after just 6 months) and I'm pretty sure my reactions will mirror yours

Of course, I might land there and just realise that living my life circling the drain in that dump is amazing like all the other obnoxiously Proud South Africans

[Maktub]

Firstly, I agree with your sentiments...and I only just left 5 weeks ago!

ps on a side issue, we went with singapore airlines which was tremendous - the best service i have ever experienced - no wonder their economy class has been voted best in the world

I second this! Their service is second to none!

[Brad76]

(rich) whites in cape town still living in their bubble - while less than 20 km from them you find some of the poorest people on earth - an anomaly which i find increasingly disturbing

Hi Emile

I'm glad you had a pleasant trip which you seemed to have enjoyed.

Although I agree with the majority of your post, I disagree with you on the above statement, yes there are a lot of white people living in those suburbs as has always been the case but if you look close enough you will notice a change in the demographic composition of many of the 'well-off' suburbs throughout South Africa. Something else that wouldn't be completely evident from your observation are the actual circumstances of many of the people living in those 'rich suburbs', I can assure you all is not as it may seem!

Unfortunately there are many, many very poor people in this country across all the demographic groups, but could it really be any other way? You have an economy which just cannot support the demand for work and at the rate the population is growing it is unlikely that it ever will (education concerns aside). Dated cultural beliefs dominate to this day, both the existing and previous Govts have / had no interest in educating the people as a whole etc etc etc etc etc, corruption, blah blah blah

I'm not telling you anything you don't know or may not be entirely aware of, considering you grew up here. I just think the above statement is not very well thought out, and although it would be quite normal for a person who has never set foot in S. Africa or Africa for that matter to have an opinion like that, you really should know better.

I don't think's it simply a matter of people living in a bubble 'rich whites' or otherwise. The problems SA faces today are far more complex than that!

Please understand this post isn't an attack on you!

Edited March 24, 2013 by Brad76

[Emille]

Brad i understand totally the situation will not change

my comment relate to myself - i find it uneasy/uncomfortable - not sure what the word emotion is - that one can live in absolute luxury while people relatively close to you have no running water or toilet

on of the reasons i left - i cannot live in such a country in such circumstances anymore

its all about me

[AndreaL]

Perhaps living here in Australia changes the way we look at things? Living here and then going back, might cause you to look at circumstances with different eyes than when you were living there, and getting through the every day things you do.

Maybe the Australian ' fair go' mentality and general way of offering a hand up to those in need, has changed us?

I don't know how I would react to seeing people living in such close proximity, but at polar ends of the wealth scale.

............but, was it a good holiday Emile, what did you enjoy the most? Apart from the disparity in living standards, what were other things that you noticed or took you by surprise? Good and bad.

[jm01]

Sorry to burst your bubble,but I disagree with you totally.i agree with feeling uncomfortable,1000-1 ratio would have anybody feel that way.look at the concentration of people,I presume you are referring to the N2.were did they all come from??

Across the boarders and from Jo burg of course!South Africa can no longer afford having the people come over the boarder like they are doing at present.but then again,what does the clowns know running this circus called SA.Emille,maybe one day I would also feel the way you do now,if it does not effect me and my family.safety and security has become a mayor factor these days,one that not even the police can enforce.I guess you were only lucky not getting mugged or robbed .

I think it is very unfair for you to look at our situating and make the comments you do!You have left SA,why don't you return and pay tax to a government that promise these people houses,think of ways to get more tax from you,only to make money disappear left,right and centre.

Anybody on the forum been to Agulas lately would have seen the revamp of the lighthouse in progress.at a cost of almost 5mil,I think it's about 4.5 mil too much.the black contractor got paid 65%once on site and 35%when completed.he only stacked the scaffolding and disappeared,apparently the company is now bankrupt after receiving the 65%. What about the website design for the free state.the tender for this was approved at 45 mil,and it was subcontracted to a white guy for 10 000!!!!!!!!!!!'

This most probably is why you feel uncomfortable on a country you grew up in.Feeling uneasy because you knew that you would never make a dent in the crime,corruption,murder,rape,child abuse..........

Frankly spoken,that is why I want to leave.Sa will never find its feet again.You know why?The same clowns gets re elected by the same idiots!How can any clear thinking person not see we're Sa is going.

I will try my best not to go down with her.

[tifu]

hi all

As much as people have the right to express their thoughts,i think lets leave the forum to what its all about-helping each other on our journey to OZ.Outbursts wont be really necessary.(My thoughts..).

Glad you had a great holiday Emille

[JuliaClaire]

I enjoyed reading Emille's observations and I think they are spot on.

As a white south african I definitely live in a bubble. We live in a beautiful part of KZN. Our children attend private schools. My husband loves his job. Our private hospital down the road resembles a comfortable hotel. If I don't read the news and keep my blinkers on I actually enjoy living here. A lot. Many, many of my friends feel the same way. We can buffer ourselves against the burgeoning crime and failing public services because we spend all of our money on top notch security, private health and education.

We have the option of leaving. Our australian permanent residency visa is stamped and expires in 2016. We can either continue living in our bubble and hope that things in improve, or pack our bags for Perth where my husband's family are all happily settled. The jury's out.

[Donovan83]

I enjoyed reading Emille's observations and I think they are spot on.

As a white south african I definitely live in a bubble. We live in a beautiful part of KZN. Our children attend private schools. My husband loves his job. Our private hospital down the road resembles a comfortable hotel. If I don't read the news and keep my blinkers on I actually enjoy living here. A lot. Many, many of my friends feel the same way. We can buffer ourselves against the burgeoning crime and failing public services because we spend all of our money on top notch security, private health and education.

We have the option of leaving. Our australian permanent residency visa is stamped and expires in 2016. We can either continue living in our bubble and hope that things in improve, or pack our bags for Perth where my husband's family are all happily settled. The jury's out.

You will only be able to buy yourself that bubble for so long, unfortunately.... when the water supply doesn't happen, or the electricity supply doesn't happen, or the food doesn't get delivered because there's no fuel... well, unfortunately no amount of money will help.

[AndreaL]

Let us just remember that just as there are forum members still in South Africa, there are forum members living here in Australia too, but one thing connects us, we have all ( mostly) come from South Africa.

Emile is entitled to express how his visit made him feel and what he observed, there will be some that agree and some that don't.

Just because we don't still live there does not mean that we are no longer entitled to comment, most of us have close and regular connection with our families who still live there.

If the ability to make comment was subject to being a tax payer of that particular country.....well, we would never be able to comment on the state of affairs in the US or the UK or anywhere for that matter.

People should be able to post a fair and reasonable observation on this forum without having to justify it.

......And back to my original comment Emile, if you get the chance, please let me know how you found things, I'm very interested as hubby and I are having the conversation we thought we would never have....going for a visit. We've tossed up meeting family in Mauritius, but with two sets of parents I don't think that will work, I'd like to see siblings etc too.

I actually don't think our visit will happen, but hubby's parents will not travel here. He is torn about this.

[AndreR]

I "semigrated" to Cape Town 8 years ago from Joburg. In that time i've seen alot of changes. When I first arrived the most notable difference was that lack of hawkers and vendors at the traffic lights, and in general the lack of vagrants and people just roaming the suburbs aimlessly. That's all changed now for the worse. My house is adjacent to a park, and my kids can no longer play there because its the local hangout for the neighbourhood drunks. I'm not sure where they come from or what they do, but they're there and the police don't seem to care.

About ten years ago I earned way less than I do now, but my money just seemed to go much further. As a senior software developer i have recruiters contacting me constantly on linked in, yet my supposedly high salary just about gets me through the month supporting a family of four. And that's having a car that's paid for and a second car that's costing me only R2000 per month. I honestly don't know how other people do it who earn less than me. Granted, my wife doesn't work, because as a white child counsellor she just cannot find a paying job, so she has to volunteer at various children's homes just so that she can maintain her skills.

So for me, personally, my main reason for leaving is financial. Even if my wife gets a minimum wage job in Australia, it will still be enough to pay the rent, and a senior developer salary in Aus will be more than enough to take care of the rest of the bills.

[rozellem]

Thanks Emile for your post, it confirms what I know and expect. I am going to Cape Town/Somerset West/Garden Route for 8 weeks at the end of the year. While I am excited to see family and friends, and for the kids to get their family fix, I am $#!tting myself about the fact that we have become very soft foreigners and dont have the Saffer six sense any more. The thing that worries me the most about RSA is that, although you have the best intentions/plans/precautions, you can easily find yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time. I know exactly what you talk about when you mention the bubble people, I know them well. Some of my best friends and acquaintances belong to that group. Having not lived in RSA for almost 16 years, but going there fairly often, I have perfected the neutral/peaceful approach to conversations and questions.

[Emille]

Perhaps living here in Australia changes the way we look at things? Living here and then going back, might cause you to look at circumstances with different eyes than when you were living there, and getting through the every day things you do.

Maybe the Australian ' fair go' mentality and general way of offering a hand up to those in need, has changed us?

I don't know how I would react to seeing people living in such close proximity, but at polar ends of the wealth scale.

............but, was it a good holiday Emile, what did you enjoy the most? Apart from the disparity in living standards, what were other things that you noticed or took you by surprise? Good and bad.

hi andrea

yes i think the australian fair go has rubbed off

on the positive side, what took me by surprise was the friendliness of the people - especially at the 'tourist places' like the waterfront, the cable car, cape point and at some of the better shops at places like century city.

what surprised me too, is that I came to the conclusion that Cape Town has the world's best weather. and in fact, contrary to popular believe, is much different from Perth's - I have forgotten about the cool breeze in the late afternoon/evening which require a jumper...

the fear of crime, crime and corruption and the catfight between the DA and the ANC did not surprise me... but the blindness of the childishness of helen zille and the stupidity of the anc did surprise me

i was surprised (I have forgotten) the unbelievable beauty of Cape Town (apart from Sydney, nothing in Australia can touch that beauty)

e

Edited March 25, 2013 by Emille

[Emille]

Sorry to burst your bubble,but I disagree with you totally.i agree with feeling uncomfortable,1000-1 ratio would have anybody feel that way.look at the concentration of people,I presume you are referring to the N2.were did they all come from??

Across the boarders and from Jo burg of course!South Africa can no longer afford having the people come over the boarder like they are doing at present.but then again,what does the clowns know running this circus called SA.Emille,maybe one day I would also feel the way you do now,if it does not effect me and my family.safety and security has become a mayor factor these days,one that not even the police can enforce.I guess you were only lucky not getting mugged or robbed .

I think it is very unfair for you to look at our situating and make the comments you do!You have left SA,why don't you return and pay tax to a government that promise these people houses,think of ways to get more tax from you,only to make money disappear left,right and centre.

Anybody on the forum been to Agulas lately would have seen the revamp of the lighthouse in progress.at a cost of almost 5mil,I think it's about 4.5 mil too much.the black contractor got paid 65%once on site and 35%when completed.he only stacked the scaffolding and disappeared,apparently the company is now bankrupt after receiving the 65%. What about the website design for the free state.the tender for this was approved at 45 mil,and it was subcontracted to a white guy for 10 000!!!!!!!!!!!'

This most probably is why you feel uncomfortable on a country you grew up in.Feeling uneasy because you knew that you would never make a dent in the crime,corruption,murder,rape,child abuse..........

Frankly spoken,that is why I want to leave.Sa will never find its feet again.You know why?The same clowns gets re elected by the same idiots!How can any clear thinking person not see we're Sa is going.

I will try my best not to go down with her.

firstly, i am not in a 'bubble' - anything but. I can see the situation very clearly in south africa - i have both lived in south africa and in Australia. I can compare what an effective society looks like and what a disfunctional society looks like. i am not quite sure what you 'disagree' about? I have given my views and impressions and feelings of my visit, after leaving south africa 4 years ago and after visiting 2 years ago. i have been freed from my anger (which you seem to have now) which I had before I left and I have been freed of my 'honeymoon' thoughts of australia

nothing that you are saying is incorrect. i shared your frustrations - if i did not i would still be in south africa. these things you mention is exactly some of the reasons why i left south africa. why else would you be on a forum like this? unfortunately corruption, affirmative action, black economic empowerment etc are the reasons the money does not go into effective government programmes which uplift the economy and uplift the poor

the people in cape town come from the eastern cape (15%) and the people in other areas come from the rest of africa - border control is important but the ANC will never take this seriously because African countries helped them during apartheid. with border control, what is needed is that the national government give a proportion of its subsidies/funding that goes to the Eastern Cape, to the Western Cape as this is where a lot of the Eastern Cape people move to. This too wont happen as the ANC does not want to see the Western Cape making a success...

i earned my salary trying to find solutions to cape town's problems and writing speeches for helen zille - but i dont believe we can make a difference anymore, hence me leaving . i still stand by my report but i do not believe its implementable unless ALL parties agree to work together which would never happen: http://www.capetown.gov.za/en/stats/CityReports/Documents/IDP/State_of_Cape_Town_Full_Report_2006_712200610345_359.pdf and http://www.capetown.gov.za/en/stats/CityReports/Documents/IDP/State%20of%20Cape%20Town%202008%20Final%20low%20res.pdf

i have in fact been to Agulhas during my holiday... this is just a typical south african story

the thing about south africa is though - it will never change - I think south africa will become like Nigeria. It will never been zimbabwe but it wont be malaysia or india either. i am afraid the nice publicity and SABC jingles about 'we are one', 'we are rainbow nation' etc. does not affect me anymore

not sure what you mean 'you think its unfair of me to make the comments i do'???????

e

Edited March 25, 2013 by Emille

[Emille]

I enjoyed reading Emille's observations and I think they are spot on.

As a white south african I definitely live in a bubble. We live in a beautiful part of KZN. Our children attend private schools. My husband loves his job. Our private hospital down the road resembles a comfortable hotel. If I don't read the news and keep my blinkers on I actually enjoy living here. A lot. Many, many of my friends feel the same way. We can buffer ourselves against the burgeoning crime and failing public services because we spend all of our money on top notch security, private health and education.

We have the option of leaving. Our australian permanent residency visa is stamped and expires in 2016. We can either continue living in our bubble and hope that things in improve, or pack our bags for Perth where my husband's family are all happily settled. The jury's out.

this is spot on

[Emille]

Let us just remember that just as there are forum members still in South Africa, there are forum members living here in Australia too, but one thing connects us, we have all ( mostly) come from South Africa.

Emile is entitled to express how his visit made him feel and what he observed, there will be some that agree and some that don't.

Just because we don't still live there does not mean that we are no longer entitled to comment, most of us have close and regular connection with our families who still live there.

If the ability to make comment was subject to being a tax payer of that particular country.....well, we would never be able to comment on the state of affairs in the US or the UK or anywhere for that matter.

People should be able to post a fair and reasonable observation on this forum without having to justify it.

......And back to my original comment Emile, if you get the chance, please let me know how you found things, I'm very interested as hubby and I are having the conversation we thought we would never have....going for a visit. We've tossed up meeting family in Mauritius, but with two sets of parents I don't think that will work, I'd like to see siblings etc too.

I actually don't think our visit will happen, but hubby's parents will not travel here. He is torn about this.

you are an angel andrea... yes thats the purpose of this forum, to express views, and its exactly the views of various people that help people.

i have now given you a reply. i think its fine to visit south africa, but to be honest i wont visit johannesburg or pretoria. if you can go to cape town or the garden route i would go for that. perhaps if you are not from cape town hire a holiday house in a small garden route town and let the family meet you there...

[Emille]

Thanks Emile for your post, it confirms what I know and expect. I am going to Cape Town/Somerset West/Garden Route for 8 weeks at the end of the year. While I am excited to see family and friends, and for the kids to get their family fix, I am $#!tting myself about the fact that we have become very soft foreigners and dont have the Saffer six sense any more. The thing that worries me the most about RSA is that, although you have the best intentions/plans/precautions, you can easily find yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time. I know exactly what you talk about when you mention the bubble people, I know them well. Some of my best friends and acquaintances belong to that group. Having not lived in RSA for almost 16 years, but going there fairly often, I have perfected the neutral/peaceful approach to conversations and questions.

i did not really look forward to the reality of south africa before my visit. giving up the total freedom i experience here from the fear of crime. I even wanted to hire a security guard for my visit i think if you stick to cape town or the garden route you should be ok with normal precautions. you get your 'watch your back' attitude back when you arrive (more so than the locals)

[AndreaL]

Thanks Emile

My folks are in Edgemead, but hubby's are in Alberton, and that is the part we both don't like. There are just huge logistics with trying to spend equal time in both places. I don't think we will go, hubby says (rightly) that if we go he would like to do all the things we could never afford to do when we lived there, we so don't want to spend a couple of weeks just sitting in a house.

It is just talk at this stage, we both vowed we would never go back, but his folks health isn't great. My sister inlaw and hubby's brother who are in Australia want us all to go to Mauritius and meet up, effectively with 3 sets of parents, but I don't know that this would be MY parents idea of a good holiday..........trying to please everyone and please ourselves, plus I am worried about my kids, they don't know how to live like that, closed doors etc. Oh well, we can talk.

[Emille]

yeah i would not go to alberton or anywhere in gauteng for that matter. i know what you mean about pleasing everybody....

[stollaCPT]

Emile,

Nice post....maar ek verskil so effens oor die "Cape Town Rich". Kapenaar se salarisse is 50% van die wat in die Goue Stede bly. Kapenaar wardeer die lewe dit is hoekom dit "slaapstad" genoem word. As iemand val hierso (maak nie saak hoe arm of ryk jy is nie) steel 50 mense hulle hande uit om jou weer op te help.

Oor die Crime kan ek nie veel se nie, in 8 jaar was daar nog net een geval waar iets uit my kar geseel was. My kinders is in een van die beste laerskole in die land (kenridge) en daar is 100 TOP ander skole ook.

Maar ja, daar is nie veel wat ek WERKLIK tans oor kan klae nie, dinge is eintlik goed hier......Stormers Speel mooi Rugby ens ens ens. Maar ek dink as ek verder in die toekoms in kyk is dit my kinders wat die geleentheid meer nodig het as ek.

So om eerlik te wees gaan dit op die stadium net vir my oor my kinders se toekoms om n regverdige kans te kry tot studies en n goeie werk. Behalwe vir dit is ek trots om n SA'ner te wees.

En.....so BTW......ek ken jou van nog voor jy kom skium piepie....stuur groete vir jou broer. ............. Sien julle oor so paar maande

Johann Stoltz

[Kanniewagnie]

My bubble het gebars toe ek wit mense by verkeersligte sien bedel het en besef het hoeveel wit plakkerskampe daar is. Persoonlik sou ek se moenie bang wees om Gauteng toe te kom nie. Ja, hier is meer misdaad, maar mens moet net nie op verlate plekke stap / ry nie. Ons maak ' n punt om nie na sononder uit te gaan nie. Ek dra nie 'n handsak erens heen, altyd my beurs en foon in my broeksakke. Sluit jou motor deure ens. Dis net om algemene versigtigheid en common sence aan die dag te le: bv moenie jou handsak of inkopies / ander dinge op d sitplek los. Sjoe, dit klink erg... Maar as jy graag jou ouers wil sien: dis werklik nie so erg nie.

[Emille]

My bubble het gebars toe ek wit mense by verkeersligte sien bedel het en besef het hoeveel wit plakkerskampe daar is. Persoonlik sou ek se moenie bang wees om Gauteng toe te kom nie. Ja, hier is meer misdaad, maar mens moet net nie op verlate plekke stap / ry nie. Ons maak ' n punt om nie na sononder uit te gaan nie. Ek dra nie 'n handsak erens heen, altyd my beurs en foon in my broeksakke. Sluit jou motor deure ens. Dis net om algemene versigtigheid en common sence aan die dag te le: bv moenie jou handsak of inkopies / ander dinge op d sitplek los. Sjoe, dit klink erg... Maar as jy graag jou ouers wil sien: dis werklik nie so erg nie.

klink vir my presies genoeg rede om NIE te gaan nie...

[Tri-nations]

We are going back in September for the first time since 2004 (ja, I know). Duty visit for MIL's 80th birthday in Port Elizabeth. I know, realise and understand that I am in for the shock of my life. Probably because like another forum member mentioned I have moved on from SA and its misery. I am petrified because I have lost the ability of always being aware of everyone and everything around me. My sister lives in her "bubble" and are constantly bugging me about coming "home".

Thank you Emile (and everyone else) for your honest opinion of your experience. Anything to help prepare for Africa.

[springmielie]

It is quite interesting and sad to read about people's fear of coming for a visit in South Africa. You are talking about us here in South Africa living in a "bubble" Maybe, but it is our "bubble" and our reality., I think if you ask the question, would you leave SA if you had the opportunity, a great number of people would, Alas, very few of us do have the luxury of leaving, so we try and make the most of it. We live in Cape Town and I think we still have it good here, yes crime is bad, but where we stay it is relatively safe, I still walk the dog early in the mornings, we sometimes forget to lock our doors, we even have a "trolley" person who takes out our garbage can every Monday morning. Our children had good educations, studied at local universities, enjoyed carefree student lives and our youngest had the oppurtunity to go and work in Brisbane, and she took it - not because she's afraid of being here, but the wonderful opportunity to spread her wings and see the world.The saddest part is, she most probably will come back for a visit to SA and experience the same shock after being away for a while. And that is our "bubble",

[Mikej]

.. we even have a "trolley" person who takes out our garbage can every Monday morning.

I must have been out of SA for too long I cannot relate to that concept anymore.