Fish Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 (edited) Yes, Allison, don't worry I realised you were generalising rather than trying to label all children and I tried to use phrases like "general experience of Australians" to make this clear but I did a bad job at it I guess After years on immigration forums I have noticed people can change demographics during their move and not notice this is the cause of some of the differences that instead just get muddied into the general issue of changing culture. Not saying this has definitely happened but if their generalisations don't ring at least somewhat true with my decades of experience here I guess I question them. Things like:- I find that SA kids are taught good basic manners, as a rule and they are not. (As a rule I find the children in my kids school and the neighbourhood very friendly and polite with just one or two notable exceptions).- I notice it all the time, the bad language, the shouting etc (I haven't noticed this at all)- cant believe it when kids in his class shout or just talk without raising their hands (Hands must go up)- ask her kid FIVE times not to throw a ball in her face in the ball pit. He did it over and over again! he didnt care and she didnt lose it, just kept on pleading with the little brat (Would be considered very rude in any circumstance I know)I'm not implying my experiences are the general case either btw and I have noticed really obvious extreme bad behavior at a children's park in Brisbane but it was in a lower socio-economic area so I just put it down to struggling parents and socio-economic's...Maybe it was just your examples that threw me as even a more relaxed parenting style would see these things as rude....they make your point seem more extreme than maybe you meant it to be and I'm sure you have a valid point that there are differences and I guess you are just trying to get those across so apologies if my diving into the can of worms is making that harder Edited September 3, 2012 by Fish 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllisonW Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 No problem, Fish. I tried to make my point by using the most extreme examples that i have seen but perhaps they had the effect of making people disengage or not able to identify with what i was trying to say. They would be unacceptable wherever you go, true. It is more subtle then i put it forward. We lived in a good middle class suburb, near Linden Johannesburg and I would say that we live in a good middle class suburb here in Melbourne. So i am not sure if it is a socio economic issue. I have mostly been exposed to bad behaviour in shopping centres, parks and play areas so its hard to tell where kids and families come from. I am also wary of the socio economic class issue as i did probation work as a social worker with the most indulged spoilt kids from Sandton who had such behavioural problems and i have seen poorer parents who manage their children really well. When i would go into more rural areas in SA where poverty is rife i was often struck by the very well behaved respectful way that kids treat their parents and grandparents. thanks for the engagement. You are so right that often on forums views become polarised when in essence they are not. Things are not black or white but mostly a 1000 shades of grey. I still stand by my views that kids here are allowed more freedom and with that freedom comes a sense permissiveness that results in some, what i would view, disrespectful behaviour. Not all kids, but more then in SA. But yes, i agree with you its better then what i saw in the UK and I dont want to imply to others still coming that you get a free delinquency guarantee in your kids passport as you pass through the border gates! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miraclebabycaw Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 (edited) Personally I just feel that parents on a whole don't give a rats ass anymore, and I see that in all areas of society not poor, middle or rich. This modern philosphy of no spanking or no corporal punishment IMO is one of the biggest culprits. You just have to look at the countries where this has been accepted as a law and look at how the kids behave to see this. I know full well there is a fine line between a hiding and abuse and I am in no way advocating the corporal punishment we endured as kids where boys got 6 of the best and we were smacked with steel edged rulers. What I am saying though is that a good swift smack on the backside never hurt any child. Once not 10 times. Parents don't know what to do and with some kids time out just does NOT work. Parents have become lazy when it comes to disciplining a child and it's just much easier to let them run around rather than offend someone in public by severly reprimanding your child or giving them a good smack on the bum if needed. Kids have no boundaries and no set routine's. You see it just by going to the local movie house where you are going to an 8pm movie, and there are young kids of 3 and 4 going into movies at that time of night with parents. Kids should be in bed asleep at that time of night, not running aournd to movies. Why because parents are not going to deny themselves anything so they let the kids stay up late, get all tired and cranky and moan and behave badly, and they just tune them out because they hear it all the time. Then the poor teachers suffer as well because the kids have had a weekend of running around doing what they like, not getting adequate sleep and are little hells on wheels. It's the parents responsibility to ensure kids are well rested and ready for school, and to provide the necessary discipline at home. Instead they expect the teachers to handle their little brats without the teachers also being able to discipline them.Alison, I have to disagree to a certain extent though on South African kids and the manners issue, because there are a LOT of south african kids that I have seen that are downright brats. The language I have heard coming out of some kids mouths that are gr1 or gr2 at local schools would make a sailor cringe, and these are also in middle class decent schools. Then again the language I have heard coming out of the mouths of some South African men in the middle of a shopping centre when there are kids around leaves much to be desired as well. Sadly I think South Africa is going to follow the patterns of the rest of the world. I often say to my hubby, we are the weird one's now. Our kids have set bed times no matter if it's the week or weekend. They are strictly taught manners and the proper use of "my friend and I" instead of me and my friend, are not allowed to interrupt when we are talking to others and boy if they swore at me their mouth would be washed out with soap immediately. Not that we are overly strict. My 12 year old knows she is allowed to voice her opinions as we believe each has a right to their own opinions, but she knows there is a line. I often have a good chuckle in the morning because her and her dad are squabbling over silly things like her room. She argues back within reason, but knows she will come home and sort it out otherwise she loses her cellphone or her DSLite. It's constructive punishment.I think Parents have become downright lazy and don't effectively discipline kids anymore, this leads to more and more kids that are out of control in the schools, and this also means you have more work to do with your kids because they start "trying" it as well to see what they can get away with. It's a sad world we live in where respect is not taught anymore. I saw it at the hospital where my mother a 76 year old woman had to stand while young people with kids sat on chairs. We would never have gotten away with that, and my kids don't either. They stand up. Basic respect and manners..a dying art.Just my loooong 2cents worth.Edited to Add...This is a GENERALISING post..not meant as everyone...just generally what I see with quite a few parents... Edited September 3, 2012 by miraclebabycaw 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LizM Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 (edited) Personally I've found SA to be a little more "old school". Certainly my hubby was an absolute gentleman (still is) when we met and it threw me. He and his friends always stood up (still do) to greet me, open doors etc etc. That wasn't my experience, in general, of Aussie men (or perhaps in my younger days I just hung around with the wrong ones ). Men in Oz are probably afraid of being ranted at by the "equal opportunity" nazi's. Men don't open doors for women because they're women, they open them for them because they are gentlemen...When I was at school in Oz in grade 12, as a responsible "senior" part of my duties whilst catching public transport was to make sure the girls behaved themselves (offered their seats to paying passengers, wore their blazers and hats etc etc).I think Aussies tend to be a bit more "laid back" which can be viewed as laziness, but I think it's more of a "no worries mate" attitude and a go with the flow thing.As for our household, regardless of which country we live in, our children will be raised with manners. Edited September 3, 2012 by LizM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 (edited) I've always opened doors and the like for whoever was there, man or woman, and never had much issue. Polite people say thank you, the less polite don't, they're the only real categories I could put the people's reactions into. Real life is often different I guess to the "types" the newspapers like to remind us about. Edited September 3, 2012 by Fish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 (edited) Personally I just feel that parents on a whole don't give a rats ass anymore, and I see that in all areas of society not poor, middle or rich. This modern philosphy of no spanking or no corporal punishment IMO is one of the biggest culprits. You just have to look at the countries where this has been accepted as a law and look at how the kids behave to see this. I know full well there is a fine line between a hiding and abuse and I am in no way advocating the corporal punishment we endured as kids where boys got 6 of the best and we were smacked with steel edged rulers. What I am saying though is that a good swift smack on the backside never hurt any child. Once not 10 times. Parents don't know what to do and with some kids time out just does NOT work. Parents have become lazy when it comes to disciplining a child and it's just much easier to let them run around rather than offend someone in public by severly reprimanding your child or giving them a good smack on the bum if needed. ...I know it is an old argument that will go forever, but in my own personal experience I often feel not hitting my children is not avoiding the difficulty of parenting but embracing it. Not all hitting of children is emotional but I think a lot is. When I'm tired and my children misbehave my human instinct is to hit or raise my voice to control them. I fight these emotions as much as I can (I never hit but do raise my voice too much sometimes) because I know why children are indulging their emotions and I don't want to act the same as them, and demonstrate to them that the way to get what you want is to hit or yell.Instead I try and stay calm and think about my strategy to teach them their use of emotion will not get them the result they want. I've learnt this through watching my mother as she changed and grew over her life of dealing with many children. She is just so good at it. I hope to learn from some of her hard won secrets though I am still a beginner compared to her and like everyone I sadly give in when I'm tired and cranky sometimes and raise my voice in a lazy attempt to deal with the situation. Again I am talking about how I feel disciplining my children, not trying to sneakily imply that everyone who yells is just being lazy. My mum also used a lot of the things you mention miraclebabycaw like routine, boundaries and respect.I'm not condemning other people who do hit their children just providing an alternative point of view of my experiences as we are all different - as are the children we end up with. Edited September 3, 2012 by Fish 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 (edited) ... I am also wary of the socio economic class issue as i did probation work as a social worker with the most indulged spoilt kids from Sandton who had such behavioural problems and i have seen poorer parents who manage their children really well. When i would go into more rural areas in SA where poverty is rife i was often struck by the very well behaved respectful way that kids treat their parents and grandparents.....Oh and I just wanted to clarify that my mention of socio-economics is not rich vs poor, more coping with life vs not. I totally agree that having little money does not equate to badly bought up, or wealth guarantee they will be. My point is just one of probability. In western society's the lower socio-economic area's don't just have people with less money, they also tend to be where people who are not coping with life for whatever reason have to live. It is the neglected children of these people, the one's not coping with life, who you are more likely to notice in a low income area causing trouble with poor parent supervision... Edited September 3, 2012 by Fish 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnYellowBrickRd Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 My 2c:We live in a "comfort-focused" society where life has become "easier". Think instant meals, quick and easy divorces, etc. As a result, society in general has become lazy. If anything is difficult, it's too much effort. Parenting properly is hard work and too few wannabe parents realize this. It takes effort to parent consistently (especially after a long day at work), it takes effort to follow through on threats, it takes effort to constantly teach one's children manners. I am a teacher and a mother and I often feel that it's easier to manage 40 teenagers in a classroom than my own 5-year-old, but it was my choice to have her and it's my responsibility to teach her how to be a well-balanced individual who makes a positive contribution to society. As a teacher I often say that I'm more prepared to work with well-mannered, academically average kids than cocky intelligent kids... and well-mannered kids are in the minority. Yes, the kids can be awful, but I blame the parents. I believe in a smack on the bum once in a while, but even if I was not allowed to smack, I would still discipline. Adults need to learn how to discipline (and again, this takes effort) as they want to avoid hitting, but in the end avoid teaching consequences to behaviour. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted September 3, 2012 Report Share Posted September 3, 2012 (edited) I might nominate myself for the "half glass full" award on the forum because I actually think most people I know still try quite hard. Life is very busy these days with many families juggling complex careers, schooling, activities, city life and the like and many people are just tired.Given this I think most people I know do a great job of trying to help their kids develop and while not all perfect I certainly don't see society going down the drain before my eyes....I see many fine families striving to be better....I think those of you who have emigrated have had an even tougher job and you should be very satisfied with the effort you have put in for your families... Edited September 3, 2012 by Fish 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OubaasDik Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 Don't scare me off now. I can't handle when Health & Safety-types interfere with the risk of enjoying life to the fullest.Heh - Someone I know joined Weightwatchers and they have to keep their shoes on for weighing because of OHS rules ...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronwyn&Co Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 Heh - Someone I know joined Weightwatchers and they have to keep their shoes on for weighing because of OHS rules ...... Seriously?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toitjie Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 (edited) Hitting children is such an emotional discussion, I see this every time there is an article about it, the comments are really out of this world.My personal opinion is that the idea to abolish corporal punishment has the right basis and motivation, but did not take into account the fact that you have to basically retrain parents. In a country like ours, you can't just say one day its ok and the next day its a crime.It took Sweden 20 years to do education and training to parents and caregivers. We were all raised with being spanked so it comes naturally. Parents and teachers need extensive support and education in the alternatives, because if you take spanking away, how then do you discipline a child? Its not easy, thats why Im saying there should have been training in place to teach the alternatives, what some people lable "the psychological way" to raise kids, which is not really true. Its just so much more work and takes a hell of a lot more effort, and parents, who were used to a quick spank with immediate results, does not always have the energy, time or patience to take the longer route.Edited to add: my apologies, Sweden, not Norway.Interesting if you read the article below, that Sweden has not been at or in a war for 100 years and has a very low level of violence. Non-violence begins at home. could this be why our country's violence is so out of control?http://www.behaviora...#39;t Spank.pdf Edited September 23, 2012 by Toitjie 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OubaasDik Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 Seriously??Absolutely seriously. That person is me .... second week meeting today - shoes ON. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreaL Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 Absolutely seriously. That person is me .... second week meeting today - shoes ON.Good luck.....did you wear light shoes? Could you get away with thongs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynnie Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 Good luck.....did you wear light shoes? Could you get away with thongs? Ha! Ha! Ha! Baie skerp :ilikeit: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OubaasDik Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 Good luck.....did you wear light shoes? Could you get away with thongs? AndreaL - for a moment I envisaged myself wearing something like this http://www.flickr.com/photos/60114113@N02/7210614800/in/photostream/After my mind rebooted, and I washed my mind's eye out with acid I realized that in Australia chicks on the beach in thongs isn't as sexy as you'd think is. And after that wide digression - yes, you may wear (Australian) thongs, but I just wear my usual shoes which are disguised runners. I do take off my selection of ID cards - all three of them, and my wallet. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronwyn&Co Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 Absolutely seriously. That person is me .... second week meeting today - shoes ON.Hell Oubaas! I think your Weightwatcher boss must be a bit too paraat! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 (edited) Hell Oubaas! I think your Weightwatcher boss must be a bit too paraat!does that mean a bit too much of a prat ? Edited September 24, 2012 by Fish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronwyn&Co Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 does that mean a bit too much of a prat ? Paraat is one of those words that doesn't have a clear English meaning. Maybe loosely translated as 'officious'. Someone who will stick to rules just to be a pain. It's a bit tongue-in-cheek. Maybe Prat is actually quite a good description Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 Paraat is one of those words that doesn't have a clear English meaning. Maybe loosely translated as 'officious'. Someone who will stick to rules just to be a pain. It's a bit tongue-in-cheek. Maybe Prat is actually quite a good description Jobsworth is the word the Brits use...it being so rare here us Aussies don't need a word for that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreaL Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 AndreaL - for a moment I envisaged myself wearing something like this http://www.flickr.co...in/photostream/After my mind rebooted, and I washed my mind's eye out with acid I realized that in Australia chicks on the beach in thongs isn't as sexy as you'd think is. And after that wide digression - yes, you may wear (Australian) thongs, but I just wear my usual shoes which are disguised runners. I do take off my selection of ID cards - all three of them, and my wallet. Only after I hit send did I realise that depending on one's geography. flip flops, plakkies or budgie smugglers would come to mind I suggest you turn up next week in thong and thongs....sans ID cards.....and when I see " man arrested for public indecency" on the national news, I'll know your meeting went well..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OubaasDik Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 (edited) Only after I hit send did I realise that depending on one's geography. flip flops, plakkies or budgie smugglers would come to mind I suggest you turn up next week in thong and thongs....sans ID cards.....and when I see " man arrested for public indecency" on the national news, I'll know your meeting went well.....Careful what you wish for Andrea - It might be like this, but with fat. Edited September 25, 2012 by OubaasDik Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndreaL Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 Careful what you wish for Andrea - It might be like this, but with fat. Obviously OH&S rules apply to Borat too 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OubaasDik Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 We've drifted pretty far from schoolyards, haven't we? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronwyn&Co Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 We've drifted pretty far from schoolyards, haven't we?Probably a good thing, that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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