Allowing minors on the forum

[Janine]

I'm just curious - the website's terms and conditions states:

"SAAUSTRALIA.org ("SAAUSTRALIA") provides access to interactive discussion forums, created and maintained by its hosts, to members who are at least eighteen (18) years old and to minors over the age of thirteen (13) who have parental permission. "

I see that Marilee is only 12. How did she manage to register then?

Don't mean to stir, but if you bend the rules for some, others might start expecting it too and before you know: total chaos like we had on that other website .

[Hendie]

You are indeed correct Janine! The forum does provide for parental consent upon registration, we have just not enabled it as yet. I can assure you it will be rectified forthwith. In this one case I am not too worried though, because Riekie cleared it with me first (I'm sure you'll be able to figure out the relationship )

[Guest Zak]

No comment - except for the fact that I believe these rules are actually here for a very good reason. (I am actually quite impressed that such rules exist). Just because of the nature of the discussions and different opinions here.

I believe I don't need to go any further on why I think these rules are good, because they were made by the founders in any case.

But they are here for a good reason and I wouldn't agree in bending them nor changing them!

Just a humble opinion, rather than bending the rules, change the rules! And if the rules cannot be changed the decision should be reviewed.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Regards.

[Janine]

In this one case I am not too worried though, because Riekie cleared it with me first (I'm sure you'll be able to figure out the relationship )

OK so if I understand you correctly: Marilee is Riekie's daughter and Riekie is a host on this website. Somehow this knowledge makes matters worse for me!

So the point you're trying to make is this: as long as you're a host you can basically break the rules to suit yourself and if a host breaks the rules then it is OK?

Talk about double standards!

[Caroline]

Eish! Looks like something that started out with perfectly good intentions is being turned into 'an example for society'

Zak-valid point.... although a little too serious for me, but good point. Janine- I feel you are coming across a little strong. But that's your opinion-so no problem.

Since I am not a host and thus I do not have to be 'politically correct'- I have one thing to say""Lets not get carried away here ".

So if I may make a suggestion that will keep all interested parties happy

Hendie & Reikie

Why don't you let the 12 year old write her story down-Reikie can type it out on the forum so that other 13 years old can read it..... and then when your daughter turns 13 she can come back onto the forum and participate. That way no rules are broken and everybody concerned will be happy.

After all you can't control who looks at the forum-you can only control who participates. Maybe there should be a 'sub-section' for the really young people.

Any other ideas? Lets have some constructive critisism here and try and help out people

[Guest Zak]

Eish! Looks like something that started out with perfectly good intentions is being turned into 'an example for society'

Hi Caroline, I agree with you the intention is absolutely 100% good.

Any other ideas? Lets have some constructive critisism here and try and help out people

The solution is easy, change the rule in the usage terms to say something like

"all children may participate with parental guidance" - or if there has to be an age limit "all children over the age of x may participate with parental guidance" - and then let's determine x = 10, 8, 6?

But maybe a PG without any specific age will be OK. Because as you rightly said, everybody can read it any case. But not really supposed to participate under the age of x?

And I truly hope that all children that do participate will indeed have the proper adult supervision, because emotions run high and stating (or defending) an opinion should be done with caution.

But once one start to bend the rules, when is it acceptable and when not? yes a 12 year girl old posting under adult supervision until such time she is 13, is not such a big deal. And making a racist comment is a big deal. But when is one overstepping that boundaries of a "good enough reason to bend the rules"?

Therefore change the rules to accommodate for this situation.

Cheers

[Riekie]

You know what? There will ALWAYS be people who will go through the fine-print of EVERYTHING to find SOMETHING they do not agree with in order to launch an attack! I was not even AWARE of the 13 year old "rule", as I myself am, "new on THIS block". I did not ask Hendie to bend the rules for me - I simply asked him if he would think it is a good idea for my daughter to (at her request) take part in the youth section of this forum. She approached me and asked me if she could maybe talk to other expat (and soon to be expat) kids on the forum because she can share a lot from her own experience being a kid. She does not intend to take part in any of the other forums (apart form the introduction in the "foyer" as all new members are invited to do) and all her postings will focus on a kid's perspective on emigrating - the good and the bad. So what is the harm in that? If the intention was to suit any ulterior motive, she could simply have lied about her age! In return for being honest, she has learnt that the adult world can be very cruel and even her innocent, good intentions can get trampled. (Did you even give that a second thought - that she would be reading this when she excitedly log on to see what the response was on her post??!! Could you not have addressed the issue under the technical section to spare her the hurt??!!)

The bigger picture and main purpose of this forum is to assist people emigrating to Australia and her contributions could address an area all parents are concerned about. Sometimes you need to see the whole picture before it is condemned. To obtain a PADI Junior open-water certification, you must be 12 years old - there are many kids younger than that who gets special permission to obtain the certification due to their circumstances - to name only one example. This is life. There's rules, but there could be valid exceptions. Some of us would go right ahead and break them, or get what we want by being dishonest. I'm not one of them. (Just for interest sake, do you always wear your safety belt? Do you stop dead for 3 seconds at every stop street? Do you keep your following distance and speed limit? Always?? I rest my case!)

[Ajay]

I'm with Riekie on this one. C'mon guys - let's be sensible! When I read Marilee's posting, the first thing I did was call my 12 year old son to come and read and prepare something for himself. Then I read the responses and sent him away again

Let's not turn into the kind of people that look for ways to trip others up. Who even thought of looking in the rules? Let's make sure that this forum fulfils its intentions of being somewhere for ex-pats / wannabee expats / future expats / others that just want to chat to meet and share ideas and thoughts and not be weary of being attacked!

[serileen]

I also after reading Marilee's post encouraged my daughter of 11years to register , which she did.She immediately wrote something and eagerly checked her mailbox to see whether her registration had come through.

Needless to say after reading the response I told her to hang ten cause I did not know of the 13year old scenario either

[Guest Seoul Sister]

Hey there,

I have read all of the comments and have been wondering for a couple of hours whether I should respond.

I agree with comments and suggestions made by Caroline, Zak and Riekie (Ajay).

I too think the registration was done with the purest of intentions and that it shouldn't be blown out of proportions. As far as positive, constructive ideas go (which I also agree is the only real thing that should actually be discussed) I like Zak's idea. I like the idea of allowing children (of whatever age the administration of the site find appropriate) with the understanding that there will be some form of parental support/ guidance / supervision. As far is I understand things, the age limit and parental supervision is more for the protection of the CHILD than it is for the protection of the forum. So as long as a child is registered with the consent of a parent and honest about their age, I don't see why there should be any problems. The site seems to be a protected, well- monitored place and when my kids are old enough I would MUCH RATHER have them spending time here, than 'out- there' where there are all kinds of lurkers and prowlers on the loose. I work on the internet, daily, and I have a concept of the dangers that are out there...

It is hard enough teaching our kids that honesty is the right policy, without having to protect them from the consequences thereof ! Why should there be negative repercussions for being kind enough to try and help other children ? I agree with Zak, it's a good idea to change the general policy or age-limit, so that whoever wishes to take part, will be allowed and be within the 'law'. Emphasis in my opinion should be more on the parental supervision or guidance of the children who choose to partake in the forum and less on the age. Let's not forget the underlying reason for the rule - protection from unwanted influences and inappropriate information.

Riekie, the fact that it is your daughter makes it a little bit easier, since I now know who I can support in keeping their child safe and happy. It does not change the way I see her. I saw her as a very kind and helpful girl, well-spoken and confident and when I saw her introduction in the foyer, I thought, oh wow, what a great idea and what fabulous initiative this girl has ! I still feel the same. I hope the administration will vote/ decide to keep her and other children who want to join and that there will be enough parental and general adult supervision on the forum, to create an exciting and happy environment for Saffer kids !

Lastly, I have one more issue that I want to raise. * this is my opinion*

As long as we are not paying forum-members, administrators, owners or moderators on this forum, we are guests. As guests I don't find it appropriate to judge or criticize the decisions of any of the above mentioned members. This doesn't mean that we are not entitled to our opinions, but that does mean that this forum is a PRIVILEGE and not a RIGHT ! Maybe we should all just be a bit careful of how we bring our ideas, opinions and thoughts to the table, especially if we will be having more younger readers on this forum from now on.

Looking forward to seeing more Saffertjies around !!

Love

Seoul Sister

[Hendie]

"SAAUSTRALIA.org ("SAAUSTRALIA") provides access to interactive discussion forums, created and maintained by its hosts, to members who are at least eighteen (18) years old and to minors over the age of thirteen (13) who have parental permission."

People, people ...

No rules were broken here. Even though Riekie did not know about the 13 year old age rule, she fully complied with it. Look at the rule again "minors over the age of thirteen (13) who have parental permission". Marilee is taking part with full permission of her parents.

The only thing that will change when we activate the consent mechanism is that parents will get a form to sign and either fax or mail to the SAAustralia host team to keep on record. We are not planning to change any rules, or to bend any rules, just to help folks who want to immigrate to Australia!

Now can we get back to the order of business ??

[Hendie]

As long as we are not paying forum-members, administrators, owners or moderators on this forum, we are guests. As guests I don't find it appropriate to judge or criticize the decisions of any of the above mentioned members. This doesn't mean that we are not entitled to our opinions, but that does mean that this forum is a PRIVILEGE and not a RIGHT ! Maybe we should all just be a bit careful of how we bring our ideas, opinions and thoughts to the table, especially if we will be having more younger readers on this forum from now on.

I appreciate the spirit of your opinion SS, but I do want to differ from you. This forum DOES belong to the members (those who have registered), and the administration is managed by a team of volunteers from that very body of members. As hosts we are responsible and accountable to the membership of the forum. The mentality that the admin or moderators have autonomy and that everyone else must just be thankful for being allowed to take part has been the downfall of many. So here we actively encourage our members to suggest improvements or to point out mistakes (like Janine did here). We want this to evolve into a forum where everyone want to be part of!

Hendie

[Guest Seoul Sister]

Hi Hendie Oh ok,

As I said, just my opinion.

But thanks for telling me, it's good to know. I like the idea of ppl feeling free to voice their opinions and adding value by suggesting improvements, etc, my concern is more with the WAY we go about it.

Love from here

Seoul Sister

[Hendie]

... oh I agree with you 100% about how we voice our concerns and opinions, and I think as folks learn that we're all here to make this an informative and fun place to be, the more we will see constructive criticism.

[Guest Zak]

No rules were broken here. Even though Riekie did not know about the 13 year old age rule, she fully complied with it. Look at the rule again "minors over the age of thirteen (13) who have parental permission". Marilee is taking part with full permission of her parents.

please refer to the following extracts from the usage terms

to minors over the age of thirteen (13) who have parental permission.

and

RESTRICTIONS

You must be at least thirteen (13) years of age to post a message to any SAAUSTRALIA discussion forum.

All, please read my response below with the best intentions

Hendie, I know we can go on debating this forever, and I find Seoul Sister's response very good - and the emphasise should be on the fact of "parental guidance" rather than the age.

Since this topic has now moved to a better category - let's discuss this here (and hopefully without hurting everyone)....

But in Janine's defence: A rule has been broken, I know it is petty, but the girl who has registered is 12. And one need to decide, one of three things:

a. It is not a big deal, and because of the severity of breaking the rule, this could be overseen and "bending the rules are ok"

b. To accommodate for this - the rule has to be changed, to still leave the parental guidance but to lower the age range or scrap it all together.

c. A decision has to be taken that she cannot join.

Since, the intention is good and the history is understood ( c ) is not an option. Unless you look at what happened here, a child was hurt by someone who said something and this may happen in the future, and let's hope we don't have to step in every time to defend the children. - maybe the reason why the rule was here in the first place?

(a) is not recommended at all, because that opens up for lot of interpretation and setting a precedent, especially if somebody wants to call on the usage terms to defend something like "racist comments". Unless one states at all rules are to be enforced at the descretion SAAustralia. But that is not a good situation at all.

If another member comes and say my 11 year old will join (with supervision), is that OK? and may 10 year old? and my 8 year old?

Is all of this is acceptable? - or was the age restriction (of 13) there for a good reason? If not, remove it.

( b ) is the only viable solution - change the rule - to make sure that there is no precedent set here.

If you feel it is option (a) - then so be it.

If you believe there is a fourth option - (d) no rule was broken and no need for the fuss - please explain to me how I (and Janine - and maybe others) could have misinterpreted the rule.

Yes, we may not agree with the method, but it is important to note that Janine actually made a very valid point, even how petty it might have seemed.

Cheers.

Edited March 5, 2006 by Zak

[Caroline]

Well, if it is the case that there will be changes........(?)

then I would vote for option b: change or take away the age and emphasise parental control.

My reasoning?

SACanada is about families moving and not only about the adults and 'grown up' issues. Sure there might be a political debate here and there however, I feel we should not forget the purpose of this site. Or maybe I have got the wrong picture since I haven't actually read the rules. Silly me....

I feel the need to express something though.... the youth section existed before this issue came along. Are we debating 'upholding' the 13 year old age limit or are we debating wether there should be a youth section at all? If the debates taking place here are not for the 'ears' of 12 year olds are they then for the 'ears' of 13 years old? What are the debates about? Moving to Australia.....(I'm sorry am I missing something here?)

Now I can understand Zak's concerns because quite a few of us have been on another site where things got completely out of hand! But I feel that the SAAustralia team are fully capable of keeping this site 'clean' and decent. Indeed I feel that Hendie and team are very focused on keeping this a 'nice place to be' for the whole family. I am not for children on forums but I feel that children also have fears related to moving and it is nice for them to be able to have contact with other children that have been through the same thing. And so far the environment on this forum has been balanced.

Are we not talking about a minor technicality here? Literally!

I'm sorry... I just feel it's ....... ja, what can I say, I'd better move on...

Chat later

[CPU]

My 2 cents,

Rules are meant to be guidelines, we don't live in a perfect society. Twelve is close to thirteen and vice versa, and that is close enough (Wiggle Space), if there is a major rule deviation than the moderators will have to step in to keep peace.

At work does one take a coffee break exactly at 10:00 AM, or leave for home exactly at 5:00 PM, do projects always meet their deadlines.

Just my opinion

Edited March 5, 2006 by CPU

[Ajay]

My initial response to this thread was rather guarded – more because I was annoyed at the time and didn’t want to say anything in anger and regret it later. I slept on it and read the postings again this morning, and I must say, I’m still angry.

First of all, let me start by saying that all the advice regarding how to resolve this so-called problem is well intended and I’m sure it will be implemented. My problem is with the way that a perfectly innocuous, innocent posting was used to get on the soap-box about hosts / privileges / potential future racist postings!

Just who is Janine accusing of double standards? As a host and a member, I take exception to the accusation. Hosting is entirely voluntary and, although I can’t speak for others, I do it as a means of trying to assist others in making their decision or in settling in when they arrive. It’s my way of giving something back. Believe me, there are many other things that I would often rather be doing than reading and typing at night, after a 12 hour day at work. To have it insinuated that there are some double standards at work just gets my blood boiling.

And how the blazes did we get to racial comments? How can an innocent posting by a young girl sharing her experience with an international relocation be compared to one? I know that Zak was trying to illustrate a point on how quickly things can degenerate, but this is a senseless comparison and only serves to get tempers flaring. It is the second time that he has brought up the issue of racism on this forum (previous encounter with AussieBob), and I, for one, am getting sick and tired of flogging that old horse. If the intention is to turn this forum into just another copy of the many out there that are full of this nonsense, then I need to rethink my participation. I’ve moved on from that.

It also worries me that there are some people out there just waiting for a reason to pounce. There are many places out in cyberspace that serve that very purpose - everyone can sling mud, make wild accusations, be openly hostile and provoke as many arguments as possible. I hope this isn’t one of them. My understanding is that this forum is intended as somewhere for people from SA (whether currently or previously) to gather and chat to others, specifically around the issue of relocating to Australia, but often about nothing in particular – just a cool place to chat. If that isn’t your intention, or if you are looking for more exciting action, then I suggest you might be happier elsewhere.

Ajay

[Riekie]

May I make a suggestion which could possibly address everyone's concerns? That children under 12 only be allowed to post in the youth section....... (and that parental consent etc. is in place).

This would obviously not stop any child reading the rest of the forum whether they've registered or not in the same as children could be visiting thousands of undesirable sites on the internet. Unfortunately we cannot control who visits our site, therefor the onus lies with the parent to have the necessary controls at home to prevent them wandering off into cyberspace.....

As far as the over 13 rule goes, maybe it would be better to require parental consent for any person under 18 wanting to register, and with that not having a cut-off age which could in future cause further disputes.

We should not forget why we have this forum and if a 12 year old can help other children going through the trauma of relocating and settling in, and if children have a forum where they can express their concerns to their peers and get support on a level which they can relate to, we have achieved more than what we've hoped for! Kids don't always tell their parents how they feel, but they would share it with a friend. Unlike cyber chat-rooms where our children can get into the hands of people with evil intentions, here we can keep an eye on them and make sure they're safe.

This is a new forum and there will obviously be some initial hiccups and adjustments. If we change something along the way, it is not to serve the needs of only one member, but of all. Our actions and decisions are to the benefit of all our members. I think we all deserve a pat on the back for the way in which this forum has been conducted!

[NZHigh]

Janine started this thread and included the following:

"and before you know: total chaos like we had on that other website" I also mentioned this a similar issue in a thread elsewhere.

And I think THAT is the point. She was just concerned that this may happen. I do not think she thinks she is any better than the rest of us.

But for the rest of your posting Ajay I I want to say Hear-hear.

Members may or not be aware that there are several migration discussion forums and chat rooms available to all parts of this world. This is a forum aimed at families interested in this part of the world.

Chances are that a very decent proportion of members here have families. As far as I am concerned the smutty discussions may be left for other sites, but let’s keep this one clean. Having said that I do not mean that anyone so far has stepped out of bounds but I do think we should ALL be aware how easily it can happen.

The SACANADA site is an excellent role model for how genuinely helpful a forum like this can be, even though some discussions become slightly heated at times. Bear in mind though that the topics that we discuss including those that leave us hot under the collar are also the type of topics that SA migrants would discuss around a barbie yet we all leave at the end of the evening as mates. The problem with a discussion forum is that one cannot see body language, hear tone of voice etc. to determine the real message behind the words. Some members use the smilies/ emoticons quite frequently and this certainly helps.

As Seoul Sister and Riekie mentioned there are so many places (forums) out there where our kids (and us for that matter) can hang around but we would much rather have them here.

At the end of the day (to do a Naas) it is ultimately the responsibility of the parent to ensure their kids are not in places where they do not belong but we do know that by having moderators/ hosts (whatever) and level headed members our kids will be safe on this forum.

After all, even though my kids were very young when we migrated to New Zealand we still discussed the issues, changes and implications of the move with them. I did not migrate, our family did.

Edited March 6, 2006 by NZHigh

[Riekie]

At the end of the day (to do a Naas)

Very Funny!!!

[Ajay]

Hang on! Isn't a Naas saying "on the ovver hand Darren"??

[NZHigh]

Hang on! Isn't a Naas saying "on the ovver hand Darren"??

Hehe, that too.

[Guest Zak]

And how the blazes did we get to racial comments? How can an innocent posting by a young girl sharing her experience with an international relocation be compared to one? I know that Zak was trying to illustrate a point on how quickly things can degenerate, but this is a senseless comparison and only serves to get tempers flaring. It is the second time that he has brought up the issue of racism on this forum (previous encounter with AussieBob), and I, for one, am getting sick and tired of flogging that old horse. If the intention is to turn this forum into just another copy of the many out there that are full of this nonsense, then I need to rethink my participation. I’ve moved on from that.

Ajay, I have read your post over and over again, and then eventually I thought, this actually deserves a reply from me.

But I am not going to reply - there is no use. There is no use, trying to defend the fact that my intention was good with this post and totally different from what you think it is, trying to say I was upset with AussieBob's post, and I wanted to respond to him - just like you are/were upset here. (Like we all get upset some times).

So no reply, there is no use, all I can say is Yes I have read your comments, understood and acknowledged.

Have a lovely day.

[Hendie]

You know Zak, giving a "non" reply such as you just did, would have been much better served in a PM or email (you CAN contact members on this forum that way). What you did is almost like an attorney in a US courtroom making a statement to influence the jury, and then saying "I retract". What on earth are you trying to accomplish?

And just so everyone knows, the host team is busy voting on this issue, and we will announce the results as soon as we have it.

Hendie

[Guest Zak]

Hendie,

First of all, even though I started of addressing Ajay, I wanted to ensure everyone my intention was good.

Secondly, I can go on defending, but this argument wil keep on going in circles, so all I am saying is my intention was good. And those who believe me good - those who don't, too bad. - I am not going to defend that any further.

Thirdly, Since my reply started of as a reply to what Ajay said. She having a problem with me (especially including some other incidents also got quoted), it would have been good if she started of replying to me in PM.

I read Ajay's (other) posts, and she is the most level-headed objective person here, so I definitely don't have a problem with her, I am not attacking her, nor anybody else, I was participating in a conversation / debate / discussion (what ever).

Fourthly, I am glad to see that this issue is being voted on, since even though how trivial it may seem, and I agree it was totally blown out of proportion - by all parties, it is something that needs to be resolved and needs a closure.