Kevin Rudd's 'advice about bullying

[ronfire]

Most people here living in Aus right now might be familiar with the tragic case of Elliot Fletcher, a schoolboy stabbed to death in school in Brisbane. In the wake of that incident, the debate around bullying was revived and the Prime Minister weighed in with his 2c (or should that be 2 billion stimulus cents?) that parents of bullied kids should consider intervening in the situation themselves, if they see that the bullying is not being addressed adequately - contacting the bully's parents, etc.

More or less, that was his comment.

Given the way I grew up and how things used to be done before, I would personally prefer that my boy learn to deal with this sort of thing, if he ever has the misfortune to be in a situation like this. If it gets out of hand, I would still prefer to go through the normal channels. However, we live in a different world to when I grew up and it is unreasonable to expect that all kids grow up with the same values that I teach my son, namely not to bully a kid smaller/younger than himself. So, maybe, a confrontational approach with the parents of a bully, who don't think he's doing anything wrong, isn't a bad thing?

I remember a case in Pretoria about 3/4 years ago which elicited a lively debate on 702, where one father called in and said that his way of dealing with it is: "if you touch my kid, I take you and your parents to court - no two ways". That was his take and I respect that, even if I don't really agree with it.

So, returning to the PM's comment - what's the opinion among members of this forum?

Is it generally a bad idea to directly get involved with the bully's family, but should be considered as an exception? Or is it never a good idea and your intervention should solely be with the school authorities and teaching your child to 'deal' with the bully

I have a good mind to let my boy learn martial arts, not only for the whole self-control/discipline thing, but also to give him confidence that he has the tools to look after himself. In fact, I'm thinking of taking it up myself....(ok, I just need to lose weight )

[hbailie]

I've got 2 girls in elementary school and I've always taught them not to hit back or return a hurtful act, whether it is physical or emotional. They must voice their disapproval to the other child / person and then walk away. If it continue, they must inform an adult. Maybe easier if it is girls, but this has worked so far for us.

But, that said, if it is getting out of hand, I would go through the school channels and arrange a meeting with all parents involved. And I would make sure teachers are alerted to the problem, to keep an eye out for intimidating or bullying behaviour. But if the bully's parents don't want to address this issue, I will go through the school and educational department channels till I get some results. If all else fails I would move my child to another school. As in life, sometimes the "bad guys" win.

[thehulls]

As a follow up to the whole bullying saga, A Current Affair aired another aspect whereby one parent decided to confront another parent and as it so happened, one of the parents fell on a pick-ax and died (go figure!)

I personally would also follow the school channels and teach my children how to deal with bullies. Having said that, my son (who is 10) has this kid in his class who bullies everyone (yes, even my son has been told by him to go back to where he came from) and to date, I have yet to see this kid see the ramifications of his actions. It is heartbeaking for the kids in the class because this child picks on the immigrants, the overweight, the slight etc.

I would be interested to see everyones responses on this one because there was another case recently of a little boy who jumped off a bus to escape a bully and ran straight in front of a car - he is currently in intensive care. His parents had gone through the school channels and were going to now move their child to another school!

It is a case of "Damned if you do (kids get even more flack if they tell) and Damned if you don't"

[CandiceM]

If my son was being bullied, I would probally want to confront the kid and the parents. Unfortunately I find that many kids (who are rude, misbehaved and generally a pain to be around) have parents who tolerate this type of behaviour in the first place, I would probally not expect it to any different with regards to bullying. Of course, this is probally not the case for every bully, and perhaps I get lucky and get parents who care.

I would however create a big stink about it at the school and demand they do something, and make sure that actions are followed through. I am very happy at the school my son is at now, because they have a no tolerance policy when it comes to bullying, and I think its important now a days when we are looking at schools for our kids that we ask about these policies and procedures...to me they should be up there with math scores and extra mural activities.

I have a friend in perth who's son was being bullied by some kid. Her son had pointed him out at one time, and one day she had enough and while dropping her son off saw the bully, she went up to him and picked him up by his back pack and told the little brat, that if he so much looked at her kid again, she would be back. I think because he was caught unawares in front of her peers, and because he saw she meant what she said...he left her kid alone. Maybe some of these kids just need to see someone is serious...and not just the paper pushing and mediation.

[Garrick]

Thinking back to when I was at school... there were some bullies around, but I don't think I was ever tormented like some of these kids. I mean, I had guys that tried to provoke me or antogonise me...because of the whole Christian turning-the-other-cheek thing. Eventually in high school enough was enough and at the end of one PE class the dude threw a orange beacon at me and then tried to give me a klap, I gave him a klap (left handed >>> right handed) and that was that. No mediation, just a straightforward, 1-time, klap, and that was the end of it.

But then, that was almost 20 years ago, and knives were not heard of in schools. I think it's also important to raise your children to believe in themselves and their worth. I think parents need to be involved more - not just from the bullies side, but from the "target"'s side. Kids need to know that they can talk to their parents about it, and that mom and dad will help. Father's need to be role models, as do mothers. Both in showing that bullying is not an acceptable social behaviour, and then in turn, how to resolve the problem.

Yes, I agree, mediation with a parent that is themselves a bully both to their peers and their children, won't really get you anywhere, and that sometimes such people only listen when summons to court or the police arrive at their door. Me, I'm going to tell Amy to tell any bully that I served in the French foreign legion counter terrorism team, and that I have ways of making people disappear. (I am actually a French citizen too )

Perhaps the only language bullies understand is fear itself? Fear of somethin bigger/worse than them? Fear of being isolated?

-G

[KathyW]

I am sure by now that many members have read that my 14 year old daughter had been terribly bullied for the last 6 months at her High School.

These last 6 months of my life had been an absolute pit of hell, just sitting by and watching what she was going through, all the slander and skinner on the "My Space" and "MSN" websites that I cannot stand anyway.

She at least realized that Mommy was right and blocked/deleted quite a few little b...es off her page, and it went quite peaceful.

We did contact the bully's parents, had them around for coffee with her and my daughter (they were previously the best of friends by the way, so we were friendly anyway with the parents). Sat in the lounge over coffee, and told them exactly what was going on. Their little darling stood there and shocked the living daylights out of us when she started screaming and performing saying that she had done nothing.................. What did Mommy and Daddy do, consoled her and said they believed her......................yip...................., but clever me had printed all the comments and nonsense that was written about my daughter on the web page and I showed them this.

Different story, oh no, somebody else must have done it and used her identity. They left...............

Not even 20 minutes later, we sneak a peek on her page and what happens......, she is now bragging that her Parents just laughed about the whole thing and told her she should slap my daughter around. Now, is this true? Or is she now lying once again?

She was seen a couple of weeks later graphitting my daughters name and mobile number on a wall on a very popular beach where all the teenagers hang out in Mindarie, advertising "Free Blow Jobs" and to contact her number.

We went down took photo's of it, and I once again phoned the Dad and told him to please bring this to an end because we cannot take this no more. He kept asking me what proof have I got......., instead of sitting her down and telling his daughter that I have the proof.

December school holidays-----------A bit quieter now, just a couple of rude messages and a few calls on our land line threatening us we must get out of the country otherwise my daughter's face will be smashed to pieces.

Twice now of attempted negotiations with the Parents, I then phoned the Dad's mobile once again and left a message that "His daughter is now pressing the wrong button on my face and if he does not sort her out I will take it too court"

My daughter goes back to school in February after we had a lovely visit back to South Africa for a holiday, and yip it starts all over again.............., she kept coming home and saying she does not understand how anybody can hate a person as much as her ex friend can hate her.

Little Bully gets her little boyfriends in the class to start hitting my daughter on the head with Atlas Books, my temper then stripped in it's moer, so I told my daughter stand up for yourself, swear at them, hit them, report them. But the type of personality she has just cannot cope with this and she just slumps further in depression. She does not want to get anybody into trouble otherwise she will never have nice friends she tells me.......

The day came......., a good couple of weeks ago, when my daughter now was punched in the face by this little Tart and she landed up with a bloody nose and went to the office for some help.

We took her to the hospital had the examination and then went to report it to the police, I phoned the school and told them what I was doing as well.

Went to court and had a restraining order put against this girl, but because they are in the same school, she only has to stay away from my daughter of 10 metres................, so little Tart is sending messages via her little friends to my daughter again. The rumour now is that she has the restraining order against my daughter.....................and her parents are suing the Police Department for serving a restraining order on her and she is only 14.

I ask you now this is what has been done in 6 months.

Bullying to the extremes that my daughter had mild depression and had to be taken to a Councillor for councilling, was originally reported to the Police with the print out of all the disgusting messages and talking about her on the web pages. They were even saying how they would "kill her, bury her, and p...ss, on her grave". Is this not enough evidence for help. No the cops told me they cannot do anything unless she is physically touched.

She was physically touched, then Police, then Court, then Restraining Order, but this little girl is still allowed to go to school, by the way she had internal detention for 3 days......................... She is still traumatising my daughter, but the school say that all Safety Measures are in place.

Ha, Ha, Ha, so I just laugh so much because I did all the correct measures and it is still going on.

She does not want to leave her school, she loves it there, loves the subjects and has wonderful mates as well.

To me......, she is the victim, surely like they would do in my days of school, EXPEL THE LITTLE S...TS.

If somebody can now tell me, am I over protective and not thinking clearly?

[Eva]

That is the most disgusting thing, I do believe you, but can't believe it!!

Take it to the next level, TV, or bring it to Kev's attention!

Bloody ridiculous, can't believe some parents either.

[Garrick]

Take it to the next level, TV, or bring it to Kev's attention!

Today Tonight. Do it.

-G

PS. to those in SA that don't know what Today Tonight is. It's one of two (at least?) daily "Carte Blanche" type shows. I love watching it...bloody brilliant.

[Garrick]

Just saw this in The Age:

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/bullied-...00310-pz9o.html

Maybe send that to the school... see how they respond...

-G

[Search]

What would I do...

1. Remove her internet presence this would at least stop the www bullying.

2. Change het mobile nr.

3. Get her to befriend groups that would stand up for her at school.

If all else fails, fight fire with fire.

[KathyW]

Thanks for that guys, that's why we sometimes wonder, have we done the right thing, should we have come when the kids were small, should we have come when they were finished school, as much as we have to go through the immigration stress, I now have seen and finally believe that our teenagers are in fact going through worse in their daily lives, and then they still have to hear and see what the Parents are going through as well.

Garrick, I printed out that newsprint and am now going to phone the school, as it is a week today to hear what exactly the safety measure plan they have done.

[Search]

On 2nd thought the only way to really deal with bullies is to stand up for yourself and to give them some of their own medicine, they need to "loose" and experience being on the other side of the stick.

Then again it's easy to talk and I appreciate the situation you are in, it must be tough

[KathyW]

What would I do...

1. Remove her internet presence this would at least stop the www bullying.

2. Change het mobile nr.

3. Get her to befriend groups that would stand up for her at school.

If all else fails, fight fire with fire.

1. We deleted all the baddies off her page and have only kept her mates on, it's very hard when the normal life of a teenager is just wanting to chat with her mates after school and on weekends, we don't live in the area that her school is in so she is not close to her mates, she was previously in a school close to home but did not have good mates there at all, so that is why I have kept her there because she loves her school.

2. We did change the number, but can't keep changing the landline number.

3. She has good mates like I said, but obviously the baddies have more of a presence in the school.

Oh boy, that charcoal fire came out of me the day I went to the Police Station really, they must of wondered what the hang walked in there that day.

[Roxy]

I have not read everyone's responses but here is my take:

My daughter is 12 in her first year of HS we've had to put her into a private school to protect her not only physically but emotionally from bullies. She is very dark and has been called a "black African b!tch" by some of the girls at school. She has been told they are going to bash her blah blah blah and this had been going on for 18mths in a public primary school. I phoned the school ~ nothing, I went into the school ~ they tried to dissuade me from seeing the principal til I had a tanty in the foyer. Then I got to see some arb person, and still NOTHING got done, my daughter got blamed. At the end of last year it got SO bad that we had to take her out of school 2 weeks before the end of term and couldn't send her back. When we phoned the principle they tried to get us to send her back and there was NO way I was gonna do that. My daughter (11 at the time) was TERRIFIED to go to school. So they said they were gonna sort it out. They still have done NOTHING!!! I know this because one of the kids from school phoned my daughter in the holidays and asked why she left school and when she told her she was surprised!! And told my daughter nothing was said to them. So there is NO point going through the schools, they don't care, its just more work for them. As for phoning the parents some of them just don't care. The main bully in my daughters case smoked, drank, was fooling round with boys and her parents smoked with her and think she's "all that" cos she "puts people in their place" you need to remember most of these bullies are BOGANS!!!! So they are hero's to their families. And might I add do you think ANY of the Ministers, Premier's, Shadow Ministers or any parliamentary people's kids go to public schools???? NO WAY!!!! Yes there is bullying in the private schools, BUT they have behaviour standards that have to be followed or your kids are expelled. And IMO when you send your child to school they have a duty of care and part of that is protecting them from bullies. They've lost control and don't want to admit it!!!

Just my 2c

EDITED TO ADD: I was not allowed to phone the school the second time cos my daughter was so scared that she'd get bashed if the bully found out she told!!! The only reason I could phone them was cos we took her out of school, that was the agreement I had to make with her to report this!!! She'd been so badly abused she hadn't told me ALOT of what happened to her until recently now that she feels safe again. She has also since told me that she started getting suicidal. I can tell she'd slumped into depression and now that she is safe again she is slowly becoming her old self again. My advice is dont waste your time with the "right" channels, they dont care. PROTECT YOUR CHILD!!!!

[ronfire]

Wow, KathyW, I think you've been remarkably patient and level-headed the way you've dealt with this. I sincerely hope that you get a really good outcome and that your daughter can continue going to school without this sort of torment.

When the parents of these little horrors do not discipline them even when confronted with evidence.......there's very little you can do through normal channels, in my opinion. Maybe a dark alley and a few well-aimed blows?

My son (bout a year ago) told us a couple of his friends at day care push him round, and we'd always told him to never use violence. Well, one day I got a bit pissed off and told him to give it back. Well, whaddya know, went to pick him up the very next day and found they'd given him a 'time-out'.....for retaliating. So i asked what was done about the kid who started it. Answer? Nothing. "Oh, his parents never do anything about it, so we don't bother even telling them. Well, we told them that we'd told our son not to put up with nonsense and we would continue to tell him the same until this kid's parents saw fit to discipline him.

The sad thing is, my son's friend is not a bad kid. He's a nice kid and my boy liked him, but he didn't know how to behave - and that's definitely his parents' fault. I shudder to think of how he will grow up....

@Garrick....I really like your idea...French Foreign Legion counter-terrorism

[ronfire]

I have not read everyone's responses but here is my take:

My daughter is 12 in her first year of HS we've had to put her into a private school to protect her not only physically but emotionally from bullies. She is very dark and has been called a "black African b!tch" by some of the girls at school. She has been told they are going to bash her blah blah blah and this had been going on for 18mths in a public primary school. I phoned the school ~ nothing, I went into the school ~ they tried to dissuade me from seeing the principal til I had a tanty in the foyer. Then I got to see some arb person, and still NOTHING got done, my daughter got blamed. At the end of last year it got SO bad that we had to take her out of school 2 weeks before the end of term and couldn't send her back. When we phoned the principle they tried to get us to send her back and there was NO way I was gonna do that. My daughter (11 at the time) was TERRIFIED to go to school. So they said they were gonna sort it out. They still have done NOTHING!!! I know this because one of the kids from school phoned my daughter in the holidays and asked why she left school and when she told her she was surprised!! And told my daughter nothing was said to them. So there is NO point going through the schools, they don't care, its just more work for them. As for phoning the parents some of them just don't care. The main bully in my daughters case smoked, drank, was fooling round with boys and her parents smoked with her and think she's "all that" cos she "puts people in their place" you need to remember most of these bullies are BOGANS!!!! So they are hero's to their families. And might I add do you think ANY of the Ministers, Premier's, Shadow Ministers or any parliamentary people's kids go to public schools???? NO WAY!!!! Yes there is bullying in the private schools, BUT they have behaviour standards that have to be followed or your kids are expelled. And IMO when you send your child to school they have a duty of care and part of that is protecting them from bullies. They've lost control and don't want to admit it!!!

Just my 2c

Wow, what kind of idiot principal runs that school??

Even more to the point, what kind of idiot parents does this kid have? Probably the kind that had her to score the baby bonus???

[Roxy]

Wow, what kind of idiot principal runs that school??

Even more to the point, what kind of idiot parents does this kid have? Probably the kind that had her to score the baby bonus???

Yep my thoughts exactly. We put her in a school that was out of our zone cos we were gonna bye there and then realized it was a "Bogan" area and bought in a much better area. My daughter had already started school and was going really well and asked to stay there, but then suddenly everything changed. So I must admit it was an area high in housing commission. I have however been completely put off public schooling and my sons go to school next year and they will be joining my daughter at the private Christian school, fortunately 3rd child goes free.....

The more you talk to people however the more broad you realize the problem is!!! I have one of my friends daughters on my FB list and she is awful!! She cyber bullies people on FB its embarrassing. I eventually couldnt take it anymore and asked her what she thought she was doing. Since then I see she doesn't make as many nasty comments, I've also told my friend, who is mortified. But she's not willing to do anything about it, I think a lot of parents are afraid of being "unpopular" with their kids, when are they going to realize parenting is NOT a popularity contest??!

[miran]

Oh Kathy, my kids are still small, but it's one of my biggest nightmares that my children will be the victims of bullying. As a teacher unfortunately I have seen that most of the bullies' parents are major a**holes themselves, and the children is normally abused physically or verbally at home or worse: ignored.... So picking on the kids with better "homes" (meaning loving parents and stable conditions) makes them feel better because they are "sharing their own hurt" in their own sick way.

My own matric year was hell because of 2 girls and a while back I asked about them on Facebook and guess what: one commited suicide a while ago and the other girl is in a really abusive relationship and struggling financially. My first thoughts were: "lekker, kry vir julle - the wheel turned...." I know it's really harsh but that's just the way I feel.

I've read about the "no tolerance" in some schools on the forum, but what exactly happens to bullies at those schools?

My thoughts are with you Kathy, but it doesn't seem that there is much your daughter can do. If she's sarcastic back, that could lead to a physical attack (like it has). I agree with a previous comment that she should surround her with friends and try and stay clear of the bullies (which is hard if they are in the same class). Just try to ignore them (chanting in her mind: They're going to end up losers....I'm not going to waste my energy on them, they're not worth it......they have crappy lives....)

You're a great, supportive mom!

[thehulls]

Kathy - the sheer fact that you have kept it together during this ordeal says alot about you and the type of mother you are! My son told me his little story and I went hysterical! I hope that should I EVER be confronted with this type of abuse, that I will handle it with the grace that you have.

I just pray that it will get better in this country.....

[KathyW]

Thanks to all you for that, in fact I suppose somebody like me (who can be full of s...t) was supposed to have this happen because at least I am a pm away if this ever happens to your kids, sometimes it is just so nice to share your feelings with somebody who has been there.

I think the problem in South Africa is, we don't like to complain and worry school teachers and authorities, well now I have learnt to pull my lioness nurturing out and protect what is mine, I don't care anymore, stand in the way of my children's happiness, then you have your match.

Thanks for reading and just be there for your kiddies.

[Oryx]

Some thoughts:

Some might work in some cases or not....

I did judo at school. And mostly, just because the other kids knew I did, they left me alone. However, I used it twice to sort out kids giving me a hard time at the bus stop. Once at the bus stop at school and once at the bus stop at the farm. And this was only after enduring the abuse for many weeks. Only one judo throw, and the harassing stopped for ever at the bus stops. I am not the violent type (I have run away on many occasions when confronted in other situations) and that is why I endured the harassment for weeks before reacting.

I don't think going to the parents will be too effective in many cases. If somebody tells me my kids are bullying theirs, I will believe my kids' story. After all - they will never bully anyone. And as mentioned, in other cases the parents will be proud of their bullies.

Perhaps use the content of Garricks posting. Perhaps accompanied by a lawyer's letter indicating that action will be taken if the issue is not resolved.

When my kid started school I used to spend time with him settling in in the mornings (The Montessori Way). And then one quickly notices the "bad boys". One morning they were pushing my son around....I went up to them.....put on a moerse scary face......and whispered in my baddest voice in their ears....And since then all is quite.

[Chocolate]

Gosh Kathy,

Your story is shocking! I can't believe how some parents behave.

But I guess, when there is a problem child, there are usually problem parents.......

IMO there is always a reason why a kid behaves badly. They are not born "evil".

I am very scared of my son (8 years old) being bullied when we finally move to Oz.

He is small built and has a gentle, generous and loving nature (that should be a good thing, right?)

He has had his share of being "pushed around" here in SA already and I

think we should now enrol him for judo or karate classes!

It is totally heartbreaking for us parents to see our kids go through this.

I think there definitely comes a time when we have to step in and TELL

the school that it is NOT ACCEPTABLE.

I sincerely hope that your daughter's troubles will be sorted soon,

and to all others that are going through the same thing.

Regards

Chocolate

[KathyW]

Thanks Chocolate.

Just to fill everybody in, I phoned the school yesterday and told them "a lady from the court's phoned me and asked me if I have in written form a letter from the school stating the Safety Policy they have put together for my daughter".

School Secretary had no idea what I was on about, then they were going to put me to the Students Officer (what ever they call these jokers) and could not find him. I demanded to speak to the Principal.

Finally got to speak to him and once I told him my "Lady from the Court" story, oh then I could hear him flapping about that the Student Officer was supposed to send this a long to me already and that he will chase it and I must leave it up to him.

My daughter comes home from school yesterday and apparently this little b with an itch started screaming and performing outside the classroom because she was not allowed in the same class as my daughter, well I believe her language was disgusting and she was screaming my daughter's name out. When I asked her if there was a teacher there, she said yes, and what did they say, they just tried to calm the little b with an itch down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So today, if I have not heard or seen a thing by 12.00 I will phone again.

Will let you know.

Stress levels actually are now taking it's toll.

[thehulls]

In other words, Kathy, there is no safety policy for your daughter thus her safety is not their priority and THUS she is NOT safe!!! This is a JOKE!!! What is wrong with this other child?

[Eva]

While I really feel for you Kathy, and everyone whose kids are bullied, just to not put the fear of Austalian bullies into everyone still coming over.... it does NOT happen at every school. And I am sure some schools are better at dealing with it than others. Maybe its because we live in a small town, but of all the people I know in Toowoomba, both Aus and South African, I have not heard one complaint about bullying, and thats people with kids at both private and state schools.

What amazes me is quite a few of the things about bullying on the forum have actually been girls! In my mind I always think of bullies as thuggish, loutish boys!