The big step

[Guest Karla]

Hi there

We have all our documentation - IELTS test, police clearance, Certificates from Australian Engineering Insitute, unabridge birth certificates, completed application - absolutely everything. But I can't get myself to post it.

I've been reading this forum and everybody is SOOOO excited about going and leaves right away after their visas have been approved.

My kids are 3 and 2 years old and we decided to do this thing before our eldest have to go to school (I understand children must go to school in Aus at age 5). So, even if our visas is approved in six months time (independent skilled), we only have to go over by end of 2007, so that she can start school at age 5 in 2008.

Why am I reluctant to hand in our application? We have a wonderful life in South Africa. We are in our early thirties and both have senior management positions - very interesting, very rewarding. We have wonderful friends in our town, a wonderful church and a lovely house with a BIIIGGG garden. Yes, we do have an alarm system, but apart from that - our lives is pretty normal (maybe we are just to naive to realise the actual situation in the country).

We are doing the Aus thing 100% for our two kiddies. Their lives won't change much now if we go (when they get older they will reap the awards - that is the reason we are emigrating), but ours will change significantly from day one. And I don't know if we will be able to cope.

We are currently coping very well financially, which will most probably change dramatically if we go over (everyone we know who has been there tell us how expensive it is).

We are living very comfortably - big, spacious house with full time maid and gardener, which will definitely change over there. (my maid even cooks for us every day - so I have to learn that too)

We have very good friends and all our family here - we have no family over there at all (I assume from what I've read that we will be able to meet nice people over there as well).

Etc Etc

The fact that we have gone through all the trouble to go means that we decided the kids future is worth more than our well - being (financial, emotional, career, social)

My point being : Did anyone else ever had doubts about going? Was it a clear cut case of Yes, we will be able to do this? I'm feeling so much conflict regarding this and isn't even slightly looking forward to the move.

Maybe you all think I'm a spoilt brat and doesn't have my priorities right - but I don't want to go (the way I'm currently feeling). As I said - I know its best for our kids, but I'm still very down in the dumps about having to leave the life I have behind.

Had to get this off my chest.

Regards

[JohanK]

Sorry for the top one it is late at night

Hi Karla

What can I say, the choice is yours and to start off with only you will be able to make the choice for yourself. Please not the exclamation I on the word CHOICE!!!!!!!!!!

If you are willing to read my very direct response keep on reading as I don’t believe in fairy tales and telling you all that I good about the paradise called Australia, to me a paradise this is but that is my opinion and luckily we all differ. Please don’t see anything I will tell you as an attack but my hones opinion, everyone on this form can tell you to get on the plane and just come over to our paradise but it might just not be for you?

You mention the following….

Children have to go to school at age 5 : Although attendance at kindergarten and pre-primary is not compulsory (in accordance with the School Education Act 1999) more that 90% of children in Western Australia attend kindergarten and 95% of children attend a pre-primary program.

The Department of Education and Training is committed to providing a place for all eligible children.

http://www.det.wa.edu.au/education/ece/

Why am I reluctant to hand in our application: Because you are not 100% ready to make the move yet, and according to me this is very important. Yes we all have fears and it is a good thing you need to get concerned if you don’t have any fears for this move because it is then when it will bite you in the butt!! But you have to be 100% ready in your own person to make this move as believe me it is not the easiest thing you will ever do in your life.

Lovely house with a BIIIGGG Garden: You can get that in Oz to but the trick is it will cost you more, and if you are not willing to clean it yourself that will cost you even more to get someone to clean it for you.

We are doing the Aus thing 100% for our two kiddies : According to me, big mistake, you have to make the move for yourself as well!!!!! You mention their lives won’t change, you will see how fast their lives will change if you are unhappy here, remember you are a family unit and that unit will become even more important as it is the only one you will have!!!

We are currently coping very well financially: We had no problem financially in SA as well and we were well off as well but according to me I am better off now. I have not one cent of debt and we did not bring our SA stuff over we replaced everything from car to furniture, and we have some left over as a safety net. Yes some things are very expensive in Oz but other stuff is much less then in SA, like car’s the SA government is literally raping you on care prices!!

Regarding your gardener and maid: You can get them over here as well but you will pay much more and somehow I don’t think she will cook for you. Oz is a firs world country an cheap labour is hard to come by.

Family and Friends: Yes we miss family but luckily we did not have a huge group of friends in SA, you will make new friends and yes there is a great group of people on this form but it will be up to you to make new friends.

Did we have doubts, I would not call it doubts in our case more fear of the unknown but as I previously mentioned, fear is a good thing it keeps you on your tows. Yes it was a clear cut case, what we did is we went on a LSD (Look See and Decide Trip) in 2005 came back to SA and did the following. I told my wife to take her time and think about this thing on her own and I then did the same and after about two weeks we sat together and discusses it. It was at that time we made the decision to make the big change together. Yes our daughter of 3 was one of the reasons why we did it but the other reasons was for ourselves. Personally living in SA irritated the living hell out of me, I was tiered of constantly being on the look out for the bad guys, I had to drive into Auckland Park every morning of my life, not nice. I would suggest to all that can afford it to come and look at this place called Oz before making the move, you will know in a very short wile if it is for you.

Now sorry to say and I don’t mean any thing by this but if I look at your own words…

“I'm feeling so much conflict regarding this and isn't even slightly looking forward to the move.”

“But I don't want to go (the way I'm currently feeling). As I said - I know its best for our kids, but I'm still very down in the dumps about having to leave the life I have behind.”

If I look at the above-mentioned words you as an individual will be making the biggest mistake of your live!!!!!

To get this off your chest is maybe the best thing you have ever done.

Now please not again, I am not trying to me nasty with you but this is just my honest opinion and if you feel like some more straightforward honesty feel free to contact me. Once again I say for my family this was the best move we could ever make but believe me not the easiest but once you get over the mountain of adapting to your new country it is paradise!!!!!!!

“Advance Australia Fair”

[sunflower]

Hi Karla,

For what it's worth, we went through exactly the same anxieties. We just figured that it takes so long to get all the paperwork done and visa granted, that we would do the paperwork now, and leave the decisions till later. At worst that could issue the visa, we could go and validate it - and if we still didn't want to move we didn't have to.

This allowed us to deal the the problem of getting a visa, but without having to actually commit to going.

What we found though was as that as time wore on, we became more and more resolute to leave as soon as our visa came through. We are still waiting (hope to hear real soon now), but there is no doubt in either of our minds that we are getting on the first plane out of here.

It's natural to be cautious about leaving so much behind, and if nothing has happened to you personally there is little real motivation to upset the apple-cart (especially if it's a profitable, comfortable one).

Emotionally there are tons of doubts - daily.

Intellectually I am sure that we are doing the right thing, for us & our children.

Hope that helps,

sunflower.

[Guest colton]

Hi Karla

There is no right answer to your question unfortunately. We have been in a similiar situation, we love our life in South Africa and we too have been very fortunate not to have any crime affect us personally. More than 5 years ago we decided to make the move, after a LSD. On the next trip over, I went to my brothers wedding, my hubby and I decided NO we preferred S.A and withdrew our application, which was in the final stages. Did we ever regret that decision, NO NOT FOR ONE DAY. The time wasn't right for us and I believe if we had gone then, we would have had many regrets and been very unhappy.

Now here we are again, just a couple of weeks away from leaving permanently. Do we feel apprehensive and unsure about leaving? NO NOT FOR ONE DAY. Our lives have changed over the years and we are excited about beginning a new chapter in a new country. Timing is everything and now is our time. My entire family is happy about the move and yes there are some concerns re schooling etc, we will always have concerns, there are no guarantees in life but I believe our minds are in the right place and therefore our relocation should be successful.

Maybe it's not your time? Good luck with your decision.

[ocean3]

We also had serious doubts about going ... actually more like procrastination in a comfort zone ! So much "umming and uhing" that we feel we have missed the boat with the radical increase in house prices in Perth , where there are very few decent looking houses for under Aus$500K ( a sickening 2,850mil Rands ! at todays pathetic rate ). We are praying that the Rand will strengthen by next May so that we can go to Melbourne (where housing is still quite reasonable)... but where we don't know a soul at this stage! If one had gone in April this year the rate was down to 4,6. Thanks to the overspending and the Zuma debacle the Rand is set to slide to 8,50 to the US$ according to Economists. So that's what procrastination does ! This is just my frustration at not waking up earlier.

I do agree that you must think of yourselves as well as your Kids. We decided to go before we had Kids purely for a better, more stable quality of life. I don't think anything else will happen to me or my immediate family if we decided to stay ... but why take that gamble. We also have a very comfortable life here in a security estate where we can sleep easy at night , with wonderful neighbours who we will miss terribly. However , this is Africa, under "african time" and as already mentioned has it's irritations ... big time ! I'm sure I don't have to spell it out. What I started thinking about was, who is going to look after us when we are really old. It is frightening to see how the old & weak are treated in this Country. There is very little compasion, even the murder rate is just another statistic to many people. I feel so much pain every time I here another death, I just don't want to be a part of it anymore.

I only awoke from my "comfort zone" about 2 months ago we have had our Visas since 2002! And even since waking I have had my doubts ... but only financially. In 2002 we were not in the fortunate position that we find ourselves today, so I think now is probably the best time for us .. when the rand improves that is ! It was the most frightening thought initially when we both decided that there was no going back, but you get used to that feeling until you are excited and anxious to get going. Especially when you spend a bit of time on the Net looking at how much there is to do there, especially for Kids.

There are many pros and cons about leaving your Country. I think the best thing to do is remain calm and clear in your thinking, write down your thoughts and worries if you think it will help. Speak to as many peolple as possible that are in the same "boat". Look intensively at the internet. Work out what you need to survive on there, look at schooling/accomodation/where to live/the weather!/forums(there are lots) ... etc...etc.. be prepared for the to be or not to be!

I don't think anyones' time is absolutely right , there is no harm in handing in the application. Although I have gone through a bit of mental anguish in the last 4 years ... so that is not entirely without it's "draw backs". However, if you read through this forums and others, I have counted one person that was anxious about immigrating. Most stated they should have gone 10 years ago. Like us, you are in the fortunate position of not going with nothing. I have to remind myself that many people I grew up with from Zim. went with nothing, and are happier for it.

No one can predict the future unfortunately! But I do think the future is more stable in Aussie. If you decide to go, you must embrace the decision and the people. Only then will you find that it is the right one.

Edited September 23, 2006 by ocean3

[Michelle]

Karla,

Even though I was the one who suggested to my husband that we should investigate our options to move to Australia, when he got excited I lost interest. He convinced me that we should go through the application process anyway just to have it as an option. If you are as well off as you say, the R 15 000 should make no difference to your situation on the long run but that would give you the opportunity to enter Australia any time you want in the next 5 years if you have a skilled independent visum. So if you change your mind about how happy you are in South Africa you can always give it a go. As you know it is a long process so if you change your mind in a year or more time you will have to wait another year before you can make the move on a PR visa or a month or 2 with a 457 if you get a sponsor.

I agree with JohanK about not making the actual move though if you are not ready. It is hard enough even when you are 100% committed to the move. If you can name your reasons for wanting to move and feel satisfied that they are the right reasons then do it. It is what keeps you going when you miss your friends and family and other South African things the most.

[JohanK]

Hi

I see my spelling and grammar was very bad sorry for that but it was late at night after a full day at the beach, but guys you will experience all that is mentioned in this thread but it is important that you WANT to make the move, to sit here and be unlucky is going to be real bad. It is true, timing plays an important role but your mindset is way more important. Speak to those in the same boat as you but also speak to those that have made the move, and yes there is only one thing I regret and that is also not coming here 10 years ago!!!!

All of the best in making this decision and make the correct one for you and your family!!

[Guest Lara]

1. Put your application in

2. Wait for it to be granted and then see how you feel

3. If you decide to go - try having a maid only once a week (like for ironing and general clean) as you'll have to get used to getting by without one in Australia unless you earn buckets of money.

4. Remember if you move to Australia it doesn't mean you have to stay for the rest of your life - I think a lot of us all hope that one day we'll be able to return to a peaceful South Africa

[ExASP]

Just a short note...coming over on a skilled Permanent visa. takes around 2 years...so if you do hand in your application now ..it will be a while until you get your visa anyway. But i agree on this...you are not ready yet to leave.

If and when that will be is different for all people. It took us about four years to decide to finally do it...and we had lots of times where we thought to just not go through with it at all. But we did and we dont regret it.

You will know when you are ready. Dont try to force it but try and find out as much as you can about Australia and the people here.

good luck with all your decisions

[Dedrei]

I totally agree with JohanK, your mind needs to be in the right place if you want to move to australia and if you want to make it work. Such a big move is really tough and if your mindset is not right, you will possibly move back to SA within a blink.

So, maybe just hand in application, see what happens, as these things can take forever and maybe in 2-3 years time you might be more ready than you are now.

Best of luck to you.

Cheers

[Guest Karla]

Hi There

Thank you very much for the replies. I realise that I might have been overemphasizing the financial comfort. We regard ourselves as living comfortably, but we are certainly not very well off. In the platteland one can still afford to have nice houses and biiiiggggg gardens.

I wrote that mail after another sleepless night of debating this issue with myself.

I honestly think the time is not right for us now. We don't have that drive to leave on the first flight out. So we will hand in and maybe we will be suprised on how we feel when our visas get approved.

I will definity go and restudy the website where I read about the 5 year age requirement for primary school. Maybe we will not be so pressured to make a decision at all.

Just regarding the 6 months approval - colleagues who are in the same line of work as us received their approval this year in just over 6 months from handing in their application.

Well, I'm off to enjoy a lovely, more peacefully day in this wonderful country of ours.

Wishing everyone a wonderful weekend and enjoy the public holiday tomorrow if you are in SA.

Feel better already.

Regards

[Barnone]

Hi Karla (& other posters on the subject)

Thanks for your honesty you really managed to communicate the confusion, fear & uncertainty that I too feel...

We have been working on our application for the past year ... ours is is not a simple application as we are business owners & neither have any formal post school qualifications. We to have no family there ...

We too have a very good life here in SA & the fear of the change in lifestyle in terms of garden size, frequenting resstaurants, domestic help etc etc is large. Even the fact that we live in a "lawless" society has its advantages (the bureaucracy & regulation we have found whilst researching our industry in Australia is scary but I can see the point). I sometimes think that I am being lazy & behaving like a spoilt child that wants everything. I have been known "change" my mind more than 3 times in a day about the way I feel about going, I am not a particularly emotional person but often find myself choking up or tears in my eyes when I see something nice that is particular to SA & think to myself, that this may be the last time that I see or experience this !

I often wonder if I am not being naive in believing how much better it will be somewhere else .... or if things are as bad as people say they are here ... or if things will get better in SA.

I will also miss the good things, comforts, the friends & the familiarity of SA, but then I realise that statisticly there is very little chance of our quality of life improving & that SA is part of Africa & I need to look north to see the probable future for SA ... I have travelled & worked extensively in Africa, staying in the very best hotels & rubbing shoulders with the elite there ... the extent of poverty is huge, the gap between haves & have nots is huge & growing all the time, the respect for human life is low & getting lower, the provision for maintenance & quality of infrastructure is low & worsening. The prospects for improvement are poor.

Then I need to understand that there are trade offs that need to be made cheap labour = poverty or vice versa & if I want to live in a truly 1st world country then I am probably going to have to work harder , pay more tax & earn less but have better social security & government services, live in a smaller house wiith a smaller garden but I am going to have better parks, more stability politically & economically etc etc

As many others have said everyones circumstances are different, there is no "right time", nothing & no one is ever 100% certain about anything.

For me it is just making an informed decision based on facts, taking action necessary and giving it my best effort to succeed ....if I fail or I am wrong not been afraid to admit it.

Good luck & remember we are never alone, we just need to reach out and ask for help, there will always be someone willing & able to assist in someway.

"Bar not one"

Edited September 24, 2006 by Barnone

[Guest Sunshine Sister]

Hi everyone,

You will not believe how many responses I have typed only to delete them again while trying to get a diplomatic yet honest reply together. *phew*

I want to start by saying how amazed I am at the support and understanding Karla has received from our fellow-forumites. I found all of the contributors made very valid points and I was particularly impressed by JohanK, whom I found very direct and honest and I found Barnone’s addition very useful as it is probably an insight into how many forumites who are writing from SA are feeling, or feel some days.

Many of you will not know this, as many of you are new members, but a while back I promised myself and everyone on our forum to say what is on my mind, without sugar coating it and I am sticking to it now. I am going to give my general views on the subject, which are not directed at Karla. I find she has raised an interesting point and I would like to address the issues mentioned, without pointing any fingers at her or anybody else in a similar situation.

*Please don’t take this personally as it is not my intention to offend or hurt anybody’s feelings *

To anybody in this situation : I don’t think you should immigrate, nor do I think you should hand in your application. I find it unfair of people who have no real intention of moving from South Africa to apply for permanent resident’s status in another country. These people not only cause delays for others who are serious about getting out, these applications also clog up an already very congested system. Did you know that the Australian Embassy in South Africa is one of the busiest consulates in the world and has been for some time ? The reality of South Africa is it is one of the most dangerous countries in the world, it has the highest rape rate in the world, has the second highest gun related violence in the world (after Columbia !!) thousands of innocent people are killed in their homes every year, millions of illegal immigrants enjoy all kinds of freedom, prisoners are allowed to vote while expat South African citizens are excluded from voting, I could go on with this list all night. Many farmers are killed in their homes every day and the government is doing NOTHING to help them, choosing to rather concentrates on ways of kicking them off their land without paying for it. Many South African qualifications are no longer accepted internationally, while not even tertiary education, hard work, ingenuity and extreme perseverance are guarantees for employment. On my last visit to South Africa I went into anaphylactic shock and was hospitalized. There is no longer a pathologist in South Africa who could do the specialized testing needed to figure out my condition, there used to be 20 in Gauteng !! How long do you think this bubble is going to last ? How long until you can’t get a properly qualified orthodontist for your children’s teeth ? Before I left there were specialists aplenty, 8 years later and most of the good ones have gone. I can give you many examples of how things have deteriorated.

Many thousands of people in South Africa have lived some of the reality I am talking about, have woken up and want to get out ASAP.

It doesn’t really make much of a difference if you are living in Knysna, Pofadder, Pretoria, Durbs or Cape Town. It is all still part of South Africa, it is still under the same corrupt government, you still have the same authorities who are supposed to look after your children, your justice system, the roads, the elderly, etc. I can understand your wanting to only look at your neighbourhood and base your decision on that, but what happens once you are brave enough to look at the whole of South Africa ? If you are really honest with yourself can it match up to other countries in the world on important aspects like competitive world economy, stable government, good education system, affordable cost of living, standard of living, safety, security, life expectancy, health care, etc ?

Immigration laws are getting tighter all over the world, while back home the Rand is once again on a less-than-amusing nose dive…Pretty soon countries are going to be so difficult and stringent with their immigration laws that only people with LOADS of cash will be able to buy their way in… Even if you are fortunate to be one of the haves Barnone was talking about how will your Rands compete with Pounds/Euros/ Dollars when competing with others for limited immigration openings somewhere worthwhile ?

It is hard enough to emigrate when 100 % motivated (as the others have already said) don’t even put yourself through it if you are still so seriously in doubt. There are thousands of people already in the system, anxiously waiting for a chance to get out, please don’t unnecessarily clog an already overtaxed avenue.

Just my honest opinion. Good luck.

Love

SS

[JohanK]

Sunshine Sister, what can I add to your post……

Nothing, as you have just in that moment hit the nail on the head. Lara you mentioned that you think a lot of us all hope that one day we’ll be able to return to a peaceful South Africa. Now how can I put this, there is no way on God’s green earth that I will return to South Africa, but that is just me, even if there is a total turn around in that country I am now a South African born Australian and very-very proud of that!!!

We all must remember one thing and that is this country called Australia has given us something very special and it is called freedom, we now need to embrace it and its way of live. I agree some people probably would return to SA and I see them as people living in exile. Why exile, because if you fall in this category you really want to return to SA and there is nothing wrong with that, as for myself, Australia is now my new country and I absolutely adore this place!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think we all should realize one thing and that is that no African Country has ever made it in whatever way. What I am about to say may shock you but if living in Africa is so good and great then you should maybe spend your productive time at trying to fix whatever is bugging you, if you do this and it still makes no change to what was bugging you then maybe it will be the right time for you to make the move to a new country.

Those of you still in South Africa contemplating this move let me start by saying, Sunshine Sister is 100% correct this thing called migration is a very hard thing to do even if you are 100% motivated but as I have said previously once you are over the top of the mountain this thing called migration is way more then worth it!!!!!

The thing that bugs me about some of those that do return to South Africa (and yes you do get them) is that they are 99.99% of the time to embarrassed to admit that they just could not adapt to Australia and its way of live. They will always blame the country and not themselves and man that just gets me very-very worked up.

Once again I wish all of you the best in the decisions you have to make as this one will rank as one of the most important one of them all.

[Queensland Girl]

Thank you SS and Johan.

You have said EXACTLY what I would have said.

Karla, Maybe this just isnt for you. Accept it, and put all your effort into living as good a life in South Africa as you can.

100%-or dont come. To difficult for a wishy-washy approach.

[Bob]

We are not all the same.

Some of us need to "warm" to an idea or suggestion and mull over the idea for a while before committing.

I feel you should take your time to consider benefits of staying and going.

One thing I can assure you of.

Your kids will always be discriminated against in South Africa.

I visited Zimbabwe a number of years after Mugabe had been in power and noticed mostly only the older Whites, having pensions and farms, were staying on. The young had gone almost.

If you choose to stay in South Africa and enjoy the lifestyle there, which may indeed be a pleasant one, you must face the prospect of your kids not being there when you are older. They may most likely leave, either because they choose to or their spouses will want to. You may grow old in a land without your kids and grandchildren being near or even in the same continent.

THAT is a likely scenario.

Staying may be a more pleasant prospect at the moment BUT life in 20 years time may be entirely different.

How much South Africa has changed in the past 20 years may be nothing to the changes in the next few years.

So, Karla, think about staying or going and take your time. You are still young enough to take your time.

If in a year or two you are still wanting to stay, then do so, but not with the safe feeling that your family will be there in the years to come.

Sorry to present life that way, but that may well be the most likely thing to occur to many South Africans who choose to stay and not take a chance.

Edited September 25, 2006 by Bob

[sa2oz]

Hi Karla! I have just registered on this forum although I have been following these very brave people since rainbow days! Reading your posting just made me realise just how hard it is for all of us who are planning to go. I am a teacher and we looked at emigrating about two years ago. Because I am pre-primary and Junior primary trained in SA (3-9 year olds), I had my qualifications positively approved by NOOSR but I have had to upgrade my qualification in order to include the birth to two year old age as Kindergarten teachers are in demand in Victoria.

My point is that this process has taken a long time for us. Maybe because of that, I have been afforded the time to think about our decision- over and over and over again. I have two young children aged 4 and 7 years respectively. I have a wonderful post at a local private school and my husband is running a successful business. But what Bob says is just so true. The immediate picture is SO good that to leave is almost crazy but where will we be in twenty years from now?

Do yourself a favour and research people who have gone. You'll see it wasn't easy. That will give you comfort when you have to face such an important decision. So many suffered so much to go but they have no regrets. Perhaps they went for the right reasons.

There are many wise and wonderful people on this forum and they all seem so willing to help. Perhaps its much easier to take the advice of those who have walked before us- not because we are indecisive but because for me, it brings comfort to know that someone has walked the road before me and they know just how hard it really is.

All the best with your decision!

[JacquesV]

Hi Karla, and to all that have contributed to this topic

Jacques and i had a real heart to heart ystrday and we talked about how happy we are in our lives at the moment - we excluded the country as a whole and focused on our lives at present. We quite comfortalbe financially, we have a great home, wonderful pups, great friends, my studies are going really well and his job is just about stress free. What more could you want...... you see thats the whole problem - there is sooo much more.

Let me give you some background. Jacques did a cold move (when you move and dont know a soul) from Cape Town to Pretoria for work - and lived there for 3 years where he managed to settle in and really enjoy his time there. He then moved back to CT for family reasons and this was about the time i decided to do a cold move from Alberton (JNB) to CT - we met through the internet and have been together since (got married this Jan - aint love grand!!). We have built our home and social circle up from scratch and when we were chatting ystrday we realised that its pritty much the same as moving abroad.

Johan and Sunshine Sista, you are soooooo right! I just had what Oprah calls a "A-HA" moment!!! its really not fair of me to send in my application unless i am 101% sure that this is where our future lies. I will be holding other people back and thats just so not COOL!

Some of the thread on this topic has opened my eyes and i am more motivated to get things sorted out than ever.

This is for Karla, girl, we dont have kids yet, however, i work as a beauty therapist and chat to a hell of a lot of women, who are also moms! I know you want to move for your kids, and you know its extremely noble of you, they will always thank you for it, and this is why. This week a client of mine told me that her child's (3yrs old) application to attend "Bishops Private School" was denied for one reason and one reason only - the colour of his skin!!! Now what does that mean to moms and moms to be - NO MATTER HOW MUCH MONEY YOU HAVE, you cant offer you children the best education available in the country because they dont have the "right" skin colour. Another example is that Jacques younger brother is in matric at the moment - from the age of 10 he wanted to be a doctor - not just any doctor a Peaditrician, so like a good boy he worked his butt off and he is currently the highest scoring academic student of his school with (what his teachers are predicting) 6 distictions for his finals - GUESS WHAT - his application to study medicine was denied - cuz of the colour of his skin!!!!! IM STILL flabagasted about this, i understand equality in the work place, but in education, that you PAYING for???????? some one please explain this to me????

We havent been hit by any violence (yet) and have no immediate reason to leave SA, except, we are convinced that we will have more opportunities and a better quality of life there! And from reading threads on this site we are even more sure! So Karla, i agree with the others on this one, be sure for yourself first and then for your children. There is no point in going if you going to be misrable and lonely, you kids will pick up on that and they will feed off your negativity. Be sure first, you need to know that you wont long for the things you left behind! (im saying this cuz we in a similar situation of having doubts and this is how i reason with myself about the decision). I am a firm believer that if you a really positive person and you love life in general, you can live anywhere and have a great life - life is what YOU make of it, all the other stuff like personal secrity and freedom and stuff is a great by product of living in what seems to be an awesome place, Australia!!!!

Anyway, just wanted to have my 2cents worth (oh by the way SA doesnt have 2cents anymore so - rephrase my 5cents worth)

Here's a pic of our big day on the beach in Blouberg!!!!

Chat soon

Natz & J

[JacquesV]

Hey guys and gals,

As you all have made some comments on this thread about why and when to leave I thought the following news article on www.news24.com was an eye opener.....

Hope you find it as interesting as we did.

http://www.fin24.co.za/articles/default/di...1518-25_2003509

Cheers

Jacques

[Nog Een]

Hi Karla,

I wouldn't normally respond to this kind of topic but I am doing it because of the spirit of this forum.

I've just returned from a week in Melbourne as I am in the process of relocating there. Let me tell you that if could stay there and not even come back I would have. But I had to come and finalize things back here.

It is not easy to pack and and go but I saw what is must be like to live a first class citizen life in a first world country and I believe it is worth more than a comfortable life in persecution.

I don't know if you've visited this site before:

www.crimexposouthafrica.org

I often wonder how many people that survived to tell their stories also thought that all was good until.....

Spot-on to all the other responses. I just wish to add my opinion.

1. Yes the government is doing nothing about the crime but I think one should realize that this drive behind the crime is from a certain grouping in this country. Even if the government tries to stem this violence, it doesn't change the mind-set of a big portion of the population of this country. Ask the thousands of French nationals that returned to the Ivory Coast a few years ago.

2. The goverment is going from bad to worse. The future presidential candidates of this country should be compared to a few others in our region and just look at the results there.

3. It reminds me of certain people in this country who refuse to admit the reality while sitting with the European passport in the backpocket!

I wish you best of luck for the future and your decisions. Maybe you should undertake a LSD to Australia and make your decision then? But I agree, don't do it to have an escape route 'just in case'. I believe that you should act according to your conviction.

A.

[Tania]

The thing that bugs me about some of those that do return to South Africa (and yes you do get them) is that they are 99.99% of the time to embarrassed to admit that they just could not adapt to Australia and its way of live. They will always blame the country and not themselves and man that just gets me very-very worked up.

Hi Johan

Jip, ek weet presies hoe jy voel!! Het vandag weer 'n "besorgde" ma by my kind se speelgroep raakgeloop, wat afgegaan het oor Australië se kinders en hulle skole stelsel, gegrond op "hoor-sê" natuurlik! Haar vriendin is glo pens en potjies terug in SA, want sy maak nie haar kind in Australië groot nie! Voordat ek die forum ontdek het, het ek haar vriendin probeer kontak, 5+ boodskappe gelos en gevra sy moet my asb bel want ek wil meer weet van haar ondervinding oor Australië se skole ens. en tot op hierdie dag het sy nie eenkeer probeer om my terug te bel nie, nou wonder ek hoekom - ??

Gelukkig het ek met ander ouers en 'n onnie, wat kinders in skole in Australië het, kon kontak mee maak en inligting oor die skole kon kry ASOOK die oulike forum ontdek , wat alles dek, van 'n kopspeld tot 'n olifant. Hie-ha!

Ek en my man het ook eers gewik en weeg en toe net op 'n dag besluit, BASTA!, ons gaan hierdie geleentheid aangryp en die beste daarvan maak, soos hulle sê: "by hook or by crook", hier kom ons!

Groetnis

Tania

[Dreamcatcher]

Mooi so Tania!

Dis die gees! Moet nooit alles glo wat jy hoor nie, vind eers uit.

Ek het self kinders in die skool, en het jare by 'n skool gewerk (admin) en was baie betrokke by alles daar. Ek is baie tevrede met skole hier, en al is die kinders anders hier, raak mens dit ook gewoond. Dis vir my asof die kinders hier grootword met meer vryheid. Hulle word nie blootgestel aan al die stres en negatiewe invloede soos geweld nie. Ons dink soms dat hierdie dinge nie ons kinders raak nie, maar dit doen. Hulle voel die ouers se spanning aan, en hulle lees ook koerante en sien die nuus. Dit kan nie goed wees vir 'n kind se siel nie. Ek is baie bly vir die wonderlike geleentheid om my kinders in Aus te kan grootmaak.

Groetnis,

Dreamy

[JohanK]

You know Tania, we had a woman in our daughters KinderMuzik class in SA and one day in class it was mentioned by the teacher that she will miss us once we are in Oz but she knows we will make it work when this other “sorry” idiot said the following “Ag hulle sal terug wees in onder 6 maande” man, being the person that I am I just let her have it in a big way right there an then, I mean she decided to take us on in the class setup so what is good for the goose is good for the gander I suppose. My first question in circumstances like that was to ask the person if they have ever been in Australia “luckily we were” normally the answer is NO and then I just tell them to rather stick to discussing things they know something about.

Now, I collect all sorts of articles from News24 because if my child asks me one day why we decided to leave SA I can supply her with ample reasons, at a stage I started to collect stories about schools in SA as well. People in SA must not think they live in this perfect school environment the only difference is that in SA we hide these kinds of things and in Oz they would rather talk about it and not constantly hiding the problems all schools in the world face.

Ya, the Aussie kids are very strange but let me tell you those I have met has more respect for their elders then some SA kids I knew. I always say “look at the parents before you look at the syndrome”

[Jimmy]

ISpot-on to all the other responses. I just wish to add my opinion.

1. Yes the government is doing nothing about the crime but I think one should realize that this drive behind the crime is from a certain grouping in this country. Even if the government tries to stem this violence, it doesn't change the mind-set of a big portion of the population of this country. Ask the thousands of French nationals that returned to the Ivory Coast a few years ago.

Nogeen

I have wrestled with this all night, what do you mean by the statement above?

[Carlos Carvalho]

Hi Karla (and of course all involved in the discussion)

Allow me to share our humble opinion and experiences. We have followed this discussion with great interest, since we are planning on moving Down Under for keeps. For us there is no turning back (or returning to SA should things eventually get better), although hubby still has occasional anxiety attacks at the idea of leaving his comfort zone.

We've made this decison based on a couple of incidents that have affected us in the past year (no boring details, just CRIME and AA, not meaning Alcoholics Anonymous). It was not an easy decision to make, as we will leave a reasonably comfortable lifestyle and most importantly, of course, our support structure behind, but we are fortunate to have the whole-hearted support of our families. Top of our list is our youngsters' futures, our youngsters' futures, our youngsters' futures. You get the picture?

Although we have some way to go still before we can call Australia home, we are very excited about starting a new chapter in our lives. Our son, who turns 5 on Sunday, is already very excited about starting school in Oz. Our daughter, aged 9, is rather apprehensive since she won't be able to see her grandma everyday as she is used to, but she is warming up to the idea.

Like everyone has said, this is your decision, your time. (Military speak: Eie teiken, eie tyd.) And, remember, that wherever in Oz you decide to settle (once you do), friendships will be born and support will be offered, of that we are certain (especially from the Forumites). They really are a helpful bunch!

Good luck.