Timelines and signatures

[Jordy]

I need to say that I really dont like the decision to remove timelines in members signatures, and I would please like the hosts to reconsider this unilaterial decision that was made without consultation. For me this was such wonderful feature of this forum. I remember someone saying once that a whole new world opened up for them when they registered and signed on because they could now see new information they couldn't see previously.

I do understand the tickers were making the forum messy and that some signatures were very long. Mine was getting way too long, but that is only because I am getting further down the road.

Riekie mentioned in the announcement that some people complained. Can I ask whether the number of complaints was so high that it necessitated such a decision? Perhaps those of us who wanted them and found them extremely useful out-weighed those who didn't.

Riekie also says we should put our timelines in the Personal statement in the Profile view. That just doesnt work for two reasons - 1. because it is too short 2. - because I couldnt be bothered opening up someones profile first to check which visa they on and their progress before answering a question.

Please would the hosts reconsider this decision? I think you have lost a crucial and a special feature of the forum. I took quite alot of pride in my signature - to the extent that when I receieved documents like PCC's or IELTS results, the first thought that crossed my mind was that I could update my signature.

Perhaps more guidelines were needed as to the length, font, colour, information etc was the answer rather than banning them outright.

Please give this a re thought!

Jordy

[Tsunabi]

Jipiiiieeee!!! I dont have one cause I dont think we are far enough in the process to warrant one but I do really like seeing how far people are in the process.

Thanks HOSTS!

[duToits]

Thanks guys. Great decision

[JanCPT]

The impression that I am getting is similar to the one I got when when Eskom started with their power cuts & blackouts & blamed it on the consumer - we were spoilt & needlessly consuming excessive electricity etc etc, .... it's all our fault!!

We were told that the consumer should cut back - start going to sleep earlier & all kind of nonsense

Coming just after the recent blackout on the saaus forum, as a result of exceeding bandwith, and based on the result of this poll, I would suspect the reason for the limitation in signatures would have more to do with reducing the bandwidth consumption, rather than as a result of members' complaints.

We have been b#ll sh*tted so often recently, by our goverment & as a result of their own inefficiencies, that it makes me really uncomfortable to get the same feeling on the forum, which is one of my starting points in achieving a new life, away from the cr#p of the type of goverment we have in SA.

If this was the case, I would have preferred to have been told that directly, instead of someone trying to lead me by the nose with a story.

I think that we can all accept that saaus website is a business at the end of the day & has to cover costs

Jan

Edited March 12, 2008 by JanCpt

[Riekie]

This little attachement says it all.

Thanks Jordy!! LOVED the attachment!!

We have been b#ll sh*tted so often recently, by our goverment & as a result of their own inefficiencies, that it makes me really uncomfortable to get the same feeling on the forum, which is one of my starting points in achieving a new life, away from the cr#p of the type of goverment we have in SA.

If this was the case, I would have preferred to have been told that directly, instead of someone trying to lead me by the nose with a story.

I think that we can all accept that saaus website is a business at the end of the day & has to cover costs

Jan

Jan, you have no idea what you're talking about. Sorry to be so blunt, but there's no other way to say it!! We don't have any reason to b*******t anyone. This forum is 100% healthy and the fact that we ran out of bandwidth is an indication of the increased interest in immigration assistance - "a sign of the times"... Since January our membership grew 6 times faster than ever before!! We've purchased extra bandwidth (which, by the way, we did not ask our members to contribute to...) and that should see us through for quite some time. When we reach the end of that, we'll simply purchase more. We are not a business - as you've put it - ALL the hosts (and 99.99% of the members) are here for the love of it. We're not here to make money, we're here to help people - it's as simple as that. The strength of this forum lies in it's members.

Maybe get your facts right before you accuse. This is still the hand that feeds you...

[duToits]

Jan, I totally agree with Riekie.

I have been a member of this forum for more than a year and it has been amazing how the numbers have increased and nobody could have predicted it. The Hosts do not make money out of the forum, they do this out of the goodness of their hearts and have assisted countless. And even if they did, it would still be worth being on this forum for the priceless information you recieve.

Edited March 12, 2008 by J&j

[Riekie]

And even if they did, it would still be worth being on this forum for the priceless information you recieve.

We're unpaid servants of the cause and will remain that for the life of the forum.

[Mara]

I am now really p****d off with JanCpt - who does he think he is?

Jan this is especially for you!

I am going to stick my neck out here and stick up for my fellow hosts - how many of you realise how much of our personal time it takes to keep an eye on this website?

We are ordinary folk, with full time jobs, children, husbands, wives, housework, travelling - to take up our time, and then we still make the effort to research your questions to which we do not have answers, to answer the questions that we have answered 36 times before, to do it with good grace, to welcome you, to assist you with whatever you need, even if it is a shoulder to cry on, a bed for the night, or a helping hand.

Best of all is, we do it for free - no small change, no big notes, no nothing, except out of the goodness of our hearts!

And this is the thanks we get? JanCpt, you should be ashamed of yourself!

[JanCPT]

Maybe get your facts right before you accuse. This is still the hand that feeds you...

No Riekie, I'm afraid not .... your's is not the hand that feeds me

Unfortunately, the internet has turned the traditional model upside down and it is the user that feeds the web site ... by each click

I did not say that there was, or that I even thought there was, anything unhealthy with the forum, but I know that each download & the size of each download, eats into the capacity of the bandwidth available & it costs money to increase the band width.

The no. of members on the forum has grown enormously & I'm sure that you guys are very proud, & rightly so!!

But, it also seems completely out of character, for you to have suddenly removed the tickers & timelines, when most of (or a very lot of) the forumites had decided to use them.

I can't think that the couple of complaints could in any way have come close to the no. of people who were actually using the tickers & timelines, especially as those complainers seem to have the facility available to view without the signatures displayed.

This poll clearly shows how easy it would be to get the forumites feelings on the matter, yet it was decided to go ahead without consultation with them (us??? - from the reaction, I'm feeling a bit excluded & don't think I'm going to be allowed to stay around much longer)

Then, a concession of a couple of lines of timeline is granted, despite the very clear picture painted by this poll.

Surely, considering the overwhelming support for the timelines & tickers, you would at the very least have considered that your decision was made in error & that the majority of forumites are in favour of the full timeline &/or ticker - if this was the only reason why you decided to remove them in the first place

If it was a matter of clutter, you didn't get the general opinion on this either, as I, for one, feel the the ticker boxes & little flashing pictures, add colour to the page.

Or, you could have considered that the ticker doesn't clutter quite as much as some of the timelines & would not take up as much of the page & therefore allowed only tickers (although I imagine would be a larger download than a couple of lines of timeline & therefore take up more bandwidth)

This all, after the site just a problem with bandwith capacity ....

I do however feel that I should apologise for hurting your feelings, this was definetly not my intention, but, unfortunately, I still have that feeling and am not convinced of the reason presented (especially to you Mara - I would want to feel ashamed, but this is unfortunately the way I see things ..)

I am also aware that the hosts are not compensated for their efforts, which I greatly appreciate. I am, however, of the opinion that there is always a profit motive & that the owner of the site will be compensated & that the ultimate / intial decision to remove the timeline / tickers would not lie with the hosts.

Again to clarify, I have no problem with anybody making money off any business & will greatly applaud any businessman in his efforts & success.

My problem is that I feel that I am been treated like a mushroom ..... kept in the dark & fed sh#t .... & I get enough of that from our guys in goverment

Cheers

Jan

Edited March 12, 2008 by JanCpt

[Carrie]

Okay... so now I'm really confused erm... foncused...

Please will someone explain to me:

1. What was / is the problem with signatures?

is it a) Bandwidth issue?

Irritation to forumites?

c) Aesthetically unpleasant?

I am really interested in hearing why we were 'encouraged' to loose them and... now it's okay to have them... but limited in length....

Maybe if we knew and understood the motivation behind this dispute it would make it easier to adapt to the decision?

[Nilo]

Sorry Hosts I have to agree in principal with JanCpt's second post. I also feel you were a little bitchy towards him!!

So his first post was a bit harsh, but as hosts and having traveled this road I am sure you know what pressures are on those still in the process!!

I believe he deserves an appology!!

Just because he had the BALLS to say what he feels doesn't mean that others don't feel the same!!!

Hosts you KNOW you are appreciated!! Everybody appreciates the effort you put into the forum.

However it's not YOUR forum it's the members forum.

Yes, you did have the fantastic idea and you pulled it thru and you are looking after it and you do keep it running smoothly. This is greatly appreciated by ALL on the forum.

But if it wasn't for the members there would be no forum!!!

What happened to the good intentions??

[Ajay]

Tell you what guys - why don't we Hosts back out of here completely for, say, the next month, and leave the administration and management entirely up to the members? Seems to me that I remember that was exactly what happened at RBN and most of us know how well that worked out.

JanCPT as good as accused us of being dishonest about the reasons behind our well thought out - much debated decision to remove tickers and timelines - a decision we took after receiving numerous complaints from members that they were distracting, made posts too lengthy and ultimately led to threads running over into multiple pages. Incidentally, we never received a single note about what a great feature they were and how much value they added.....until our announcement.

Nilo - what happened to the "good intentions?" They are seriously tested when we are attacked, accused, hung, drawn and quartered by a community who do not have the information required to attend the trial, never mind sit on the jury.

JanCPT's insinuation about financial gain is so far off base it's laughable. We host the forum out of Canada because we can get cheap bandwidth there and Hendie lives there. The bandwidth is paid for partly by the banner advertising (which is cheap as chips as any of our advertisers will tell you) and partly by the Hosts. On average, I spend around 15-25 hours a week answering PM's. responding to direct questions, introducing members to potentail employers, assisting with advice on job interviews and resume structure, meeting members in person occassionally, and generally reading the forum to make sure that things are running as smoothly as possible. Some of the hosts were out of bed at 4am on the morning of the now infamous 'hacking' incident to try and contain the damage and making intercontinental calls to get it resolved as quickly as possible.

So, to be accused of being bitchy and of having lost our good intentions is in the best case misguided and in the worst case, unbelievably rude. We are all well aware the the forum is nothing without our members - we are not fools, and we don't treat our community as fools. Please try to afford us the same courtesy.

Apologies to my fellow hosts for sending this out without due consultation, but I, for one, am over it. Such a furore over a simple request where a perfectly reasonable compromise was reached just annoys the hell out of me.

Ajay

[Monica_]

I would much rather have a forum without timelines and signature, than no forum at all.

Monica

[Nilo]

Ajay, just to put you in the Picture.... IT WAS ME THAT PHONED PIPPA TO TELL HER ABOUT THE HACKER!!!!!!!! I was told by someone in South Africa that our forum was being hacked!!! So I tried to get hold of Dedrei but she didn't answer and then phoned Pippa it took me about half an hour to get hold of a host. Not that that was a problem as I was awake because my husband went to work early.

I don't know ANYTHING about Rainbow Nation, except that the hosts often bring that up as an example so obviously things didn't work out well there.

Please would you re read my post. Nobody said that the hosts weren't EXTREMELY valuable and appreciated!!!

This whole thing has now exploded into something COMPLETELY unneccessary. The only thing that the members wanted was a poll to guage opinions. How difficult can that be????

I am really upset about your attack as I believe you have overreacted. I am sorry about using the word BITCH as I suppose that was too strong so I appologise.

I will not resign from this forum even if thats what I feel like doing at the moment!! I am not participating on the forum to please the hosts but to be of service to my fellow migrants!!!! To help them and nobody else!!!

[Ajay]

Okay... so now I'm really confused erm... foncused...

Please will someone explain to me:

1. What was / is the problem with signatures?

is it a) Bandwidth issue?

Irritation to forumites?

c) Aesthetically unpleasant?

I am really interested in hearing why we were 'encouraged' to loose them and... now it's okay to have them... but limited in length....

Maybe if we knew and understood the motivation behind this dispute it would make it easier to adapt to the decision?

Hi Foncused,

The motivation behind the initial request was as explained by Riekie here (apologies for just offering the link, but it was quite a lengthy explanation). There was absolutely no hidden agenda and no ulterior motive. As a Host team, we aim to respond to and serve our user community, so that's what we did following the complaints we'd received. Following the massive response to the announcement, we spoke further and decided to allow timelines (but limit them) but we still upheld the decision on the tickers. This was met with great support and seemed to appease most people as it was a compromise from both parties.

The issue on dirty tricks and leading people by the nose is the opinion of one member, to whom we are now expected to apologise because he was only one with enough "balls" to highlight that we were trying to pull an Eskom on everyone and were perhaps guilty of b*llshi**ing for some business gain.

I hope that answers your question and clarifies why I am so extremely angry.

Cheers

Ajay

[Mara]

Nilo I do not think Ajay's reply is without merit, as I read your post as an attack as well. We are not five years old, you cannot say nice things from the left and attack us from the right. So you think we do a wonderful job, well then allow us to get on with it, we do not need posts like JanCpt's. If he was to weigh the information that is gained by SA's on this website, against the 'arbitrary' decisions (in his and your opinion) that the host's make, then quite frankly I think all the members here are still winning 'hands down'!

I am in full agreement with Ajay, I spend probably about 28 hours a week on this site, purely from a point of view of assisting others, definitely not for my own education or enjoyment. I am giving up my afternoon today, and my day tomorow, to help SA's on LSD's, showing them around, both sets are from this website.

I am not suggesting for one moment that the host's are the bosses around here, but let me offer this scenario - if you were working for a boss, especially one that has 10,000 employees, do you really think it would make sense to consult all of his employees before he makes a decision? I don't think he would be a boss for very long - do you?

Members come and members go, they gather their information and leave when they are done, HOWEVER, the hosts remain around, doing their job, day after day. No decision on this website is made by one single host, it is debated by all the hosts and acted upon when a decision is reached. That is why when a request was made to reconsider the timelines in the signatures, it took around a week to approve.

To Ajay, I love your idea of letting them be for a month - Rainbownation here we come! Tadaaaaaaaaa!

[Ajay]

Sorry Hosts I have to agree in principal with JanCpt's second post. I also feel you were a little bitchy towards him!!

So his first post was a bit harsh, but as hosts and having traveled this road I am sure you know what pressures are on those still in the process!!

I believe he deserves an appology!!

Just because he had the BALLS to say what he feels doesn't mean that others don't feel the same!!!

Hosts you KNOW you are appreciated!! Everybody appreciates the effort you put into the forum.

However it's not YOUR forum it's the members forum.

Yes, you did have the fantastic idea and you pulled it thru and you are looking after it and you do keep it running smoothly. This is greatly appreciated by ALL on the forum.

But if it wasn't for the members there would be no forum!!!

What happened to the good intentions??

Nilo,

I have read your post(s) again any my inital reaction remains the same. I don't believe JanCPT is owed an apology for calling us bullshi**ers and for comparing us as a group to a government that keeps people in the dark and feeds them sh*t, simply because he didn't agree with a decision that was made. I also don't think I attacked you so much as I stood up for my fellow hosts, who, incidentally, are also in this to help fellow migrants. We certainly don't expect any members to be here to please us.

Cheers

Ajay

[JanCPT]

When I wrote the post, I had no intention of starting a war between friends & I apologise for that

In writing, I definetly didn't have the Hosts in mind as the initial source of the decision, merely as the tools in implementing

You should surely realise that if you employ 10 000 people, it would be CRITICAL to consult with them on a decision which is going to effect their conditions of employment

And, you are right, I did accuse (by implication) & make reference to Eskom - If you sit back & consider the factors that I have mentioned in a logical manner and with an open mind, do you really think that I was being unreasonable in my assesment - there are so many which are similar!!

Hung, dried & quartered?? - I think this is taking my post a little bit too far ...

If it was only me that didn't agree, I would say that Ajay was correct in his assesment, This poll, however, indicates the complete opposite & I am not the one standing in isolation, with my decision

As for my cririsicing from the left & complimenting from the right .... I still think it is appropriate, because although I believe the Hosts do a sterling job in general, it does not mean that I must shut up, if I think they haven't on a single matter

In retrospect, my initial post may have been a bit harsh, but as veteran forumites you should surely remember that very often a post will seem abrupt, without the writer intending it & it is better to clarify, before jumping in with both feet

I definitely don't expect or even want an apology - I'd rather have the matter heard & cleared.

If my post is going to cause the Hosts to resign & have the ultimate collapse of this forum, I would rather withdraw the question.

But I am rather disappointed at the response & the fact that I am been forced to withdraw, because of the threat of collapsing the forum, by the Hosts. I would never have predicted this kind of response before hand

We're all addicts &, try as much as I want, I find it difficult to stay away & 20 / 30 hours a week is my fix

Cheers

Jan

Edited March 13, 2008 by JanCpt

[Carrie]

Okay... so... if it pleases the hosts... can I try and sum it up here (to see if I understand it??)

The reason for this issue and your ruling is to keep the forum 'neat and tidy'

So... no more tickers. Sorted!

As far as the signatures are concerned... if members don't like them or find them untidy... the forum offers a facility to 'turn them off'

So... those of us that enjoy them can have the benefit... and those that don't can block them

Sooooo easy to sort!!

I love it when a plan comes together!!

[Mara]

Yes Foncused, you are correct in your summary, except for one small detail, that the timeline is kept to a maximum of eight lines!

JanCpt, I really don't think that you would be the cause of any host resigning or this website collapsing - we have dealt with much worse - in all probability when you decide to move on, because you do not like the next arbitrary decision that the hosts make, you are totally entitled to your opinion, of course. then the hosts will still be here, paying it forward!

I think with this we can now view the matter as closed, if you will!

[colton]

Isn't it amazing how one members name always seems to pop up when there are problems.......Shew, here we go again.

[Carrie]

Would this be a bad time to ask why the signatures have been limited to 8 lines?

If those that don't want them can block them...

and

If it's not a case of bandwidth...

Why limit them?

I'm back to being confused

[Mara]

Hi Foncused

I think this subject has been discussed endlessly, the decision was made to limit the timelines to 8 lines, instead of removing them altogether, I think perhaps it is time to accept that.

This thread has done it's time, I am off to greener pastures.

[Nilo]

Colton, that was uncalled for!! Karma??

[Carrie]

I clearly understand that the signatures have been limited to 8 lines

what I am asking is...

WHY?

there are, in my understanding, two issues of contention...

1. Bandwidth - we have been clearly advised that bandwidth is not the issue'

2. Irritatation to forumites / aesthetics... - we know that signatures can be activated or removed as per each individuals personal tastes....

so....

neither of these hold any water...

I am happy to abide by rules and regulations... if they are based in logic...

once the rules no longer confirm to the basic rules of logic I feel compelled to question...

so... no... I do not feel that the situation has been dealt with...

My question remains unanswered.... and you, as hosts, are required to respond...

Why are the signatures limited to 8 lines

As a forumite I respectfully ask you to please quantify your decision to limit signatures to 8 lines

It's a simple question... please stop dismissing me!

[DKH]

Hi,

I would like to thank the hosts for your dedication, as well as all the others who post positive and helpful posts.

As for many others, this site has made it possible for my family to move strides ahead of where we would have been, we can almost see, smell, and touch our new future. It has saved immense amounts of time and money through the experience and knowledge of others. Plainly, I think we are a bit sidetracked from the real purpose by this issue.

My opinion is that it is so often not what you say, but how you say it - it is a maker or breaker in business and personal interactions, and it should be no different here just because it is maybe more "faceless" (in fact it should be the inverse as my written words are the only thing I can be known by). Yes, sometimes we act emotionally and out of frustration, but we should always be able to run the simple little test of "Is this helpful?" before clicking the "Add Reply" button (even if we have to take a few rescue tablets first!).

foncused,

From what I have followed in the posts above, a number of the ordinary forumites (myself included) did propose that the timelines / signatures be allowed but limited, as I find that some are just too long to be practical, but I guess it is different strokes for different folks. I didn’t want to switch all signatures off just to avoid a few long ones.

Hope this settles it at least partly for you.

Cheers,

DKH