Attitudes of Migrants

[Guest Larry]

With all the excitement that has been going on with regard to people being sensitive to criticisms about South Africa, I would like to post some of my observations:- (This is a bit of a long read)

In the early 1960's when I was a little kid growing up in Port Elizabeth, I was very interested in motor cars and where they had come from. At the age of 9, when we left PE for Johannesburg, I could name every make and model of car on South African roads and where it was manufactured. I could also tell where it had come from by looking at the number plates and international registration stickers.

I found it amazing how many cars (generally Peugeot and Citroens) with "RNR", "EAK", "EAT" and "EAU" international registration stickers were turning up in our area. - "RNR" was Northern Rhodesia (Zambia), "EAK" was "East Africa Kenya", "EAT" was "East Africa Tanganyika" and "EAU" was "East Africa Uganda". Quite a few of my father's old university buddies drove these cars and popped to stay for a few days before moving on.... By the time that I got to university in the early 1970's, the international registration stickers had changed to "RSR" (Southern Rhodesia, later Rhodesia and then Zimbabwe).

All of these people had wonderful stories to tell about the countries from which they had come. Unfortunately, quite a few of them took to comparing South Africa unfairly with their homes which they had left behind. They seemed to be constantly whining "When we were in Rhodesia......" or "When we were in Kenya....". We started calling them "Whenwe's". - Actually a few ex-Rhodie friends of mine still refer to themselves as "Whenwe's".

The standard answer to a "Whenwe" whinge, was "If it was so bloody wonderful where you came from, why don't you go back?"

In the late 1970's, having completed my degree in civil engineering at Wits, I went into the SADF to do my two year's national service. I got involved in a bit of anti-mine warfare and worked quite a bit with the Rhodesians. Towards the end of my national service, I was contacted by Grinaker Construction, the company who had given me a bursary to study at Wits and asked whether I would like to fulfill my bursary obligations by working for them in Rhodesia. There was a weapons symposium going on at the time and quite a few senior Rhodesian officers were down in Pretoria. My major aranged for the officer commanding the Rhodesian Corps of Engineers to give me a complete briefing on Rhodesia. - From lifestyle to the "real" security situation. (All of this for a lowly lieutenant!!)

After the briefing, I contacted Grinaker and told them that I would go to Rhodesia. So began what has probably been the two best years of my life. I got the chance to see Rhodesia and meet its people. I was there during the election which saw "Mad Bob" get into power. I did game counts in Wankie National Park. I paddled a canoe down part of the Zambesi, sleeping on sand-banks at night. My cameras were always at my side and I have thousands of slides which help preserve the memories.

But the most important thing, from my point of view, was that I got to see what the Rhodesians were "whenwe-ing" about, before Mad Bob stuffed it up. - It was a wonderful country! "Was" is the operative word!

This then affected my behaviour when I in turn left South Africa for New Zealand and then Australia. The Australians and New Zealanders were in the same position with respect to the South African migrants as the South Africans had been to the Kenyan and Rhodesians all those years ago. Yes! We have come from a wonderful country! Yes! We have good reasons for leaving! But the Aussies and Kiwi's don't need to hear us whinging about how wonderful it was in South Africa. If they do, they are quite likely to say "If it was so bloody wonderful in South Africa, why don't you go back?"

There is nothing to be gained in being sensitive to criticism of South Africa. You are going to hear a lot of it in Australia. - Both from ex-South Africans and from Australians themselves. Both warranted criticism and absolute bloody lies! Get used to it and develop a thick skin. Don't feel a need to correct what you see as unwarranted criticism.

Finally, the only real advice that I can give in this regard is:- If you can't get used to criticism of South Africa, it might be better if you didn't come to Australia at all. You will get frustrated and won't make any friends. Remember the migrants' motto:- "FIFO" - Fit In or F..k Off!

Edited May 21, 2006 by Larry

[Guest Seoul Sister]

Hi there Larry and others,

Thank you very much for your posting, which I found interesting reading. Having lived in Europe where sympathy for foreigners has just about dried up I could relate very well to the reaction to misplaced patriotism you described…Keeping recent events in both France and Belgium in mind, I can’t say that I blame Europeans for their anti sentiments.

A few very amusing if somewhat embarrassing tales from my own life and my relentless efforts to FIT IN to de maatschappij came to mind as I was reading. ..(Maatschappij being sameleving/community and not company) OMGoodness, , I’ll be kind and spare you the details.

FIFO – YES, I am no stranger to this concept and have seen many examples thereof. Our pastor, born and raised in Oklahoma, USA, struggled to maintain a C average for Spanish at school, yet when as a missionary he was placed in charge of an orphanage in rural Korea, he managed to learn understandable Korean in 3 years !! Understandable Korean is no small feat, in 3 years is fantastic, by an America is just plain miraculous.

Adapt or die.

Love from here

Seoul Sister

Editing to add something I just remembered :

The slogan of a whole series of ad campaigns on Dutch TV -

De Maatschappij - ben ik en jij. *which means* Society - is you and me.

I like that !

Edited May 21, 2006 by Seoul Sister

[Dreamcatcher]

Hi there Larry

Thanks for your lovely posting. I think everybody should read it.

The whole critisism thing between our dear friends on the forum has been quite disconcerting to me. I don't like conflict at all! And seeing such positive people being pulled into the negative feelings of another just makes me sad.

I can just imagine the Whenwe phenomenon, I think I might be one too I love talking about SA, and the way we used to do things, or what we could buy. I know I should stop, but I can't help myself! Unfortunately I live in the past, and find it hard to adapt to new things. Talking about where I came from, helps to make me feel a little less lost. But I know that I sometimes bore people to death. Hopefully it will get better with time, I'm working hard on keeping my mouth shut, or only answering questions to the point.

We haven't been here very long, but I really like Australia, and I am so glad for the opportunity that we got, to be able to move to this new country.

Keep the positive spirit.

Greetings,

Dreamy

[Guest Larry]

Something else about the migrant thing ..... A bit of a long ramble....

Not long after I returned to South Africa from Zimbabwe, a lady friend of mine from Zim contacted me and said that she had moved down to South Africa and into a communal house in Craighall Park which she was sharing with a bunch of ex-Rhodies, Irish, Scots and Kiwi's. They were having a party that Saturday night. Would I like to attend? Is the Pope catholic?

It was indeed a memorable party. Gerard, a Dutch-born Kiwi, and I became firm friends..... I think that it was as a result of our competing in a beer-drinking competition!? Hic! Another bloody civil engineer!

Anyway, a year or so later on, Gerard and his Kiwi mates all left South Africa to do Africa Overland. On the way up through Africa, Gerard got entangled with this Aussie school teacher and they completed the tour together. Gerard then returned to South Africa. The Aussie school teacher returned to Australia, resigned her job, and returned to South Africa too!

The weekend before the Aussie school teacher arrived in South Africa, I took Gerard up for a lightning trip of Zimbabwe, where he got to meet all of my Zimbabwean mates.

Gerard and lady duly got married in an Irish friend's backyard in Randburg. I couldn't attend the wedding as I was busy paddling a canoe down the Zambesi. But that didn't stop the guys from cutting the reception short to watch the New Zealand Cavaliers play the Springbokke!

Gerard and his wife moved to Australia before they had kids and settled in Sydney. They had a whole bunch of sons!!

I then decided to move to New Zealand and told Gerard about my decision. His younger brother Pete met me at Auckland airport. Pete and his wife looked after me and gave me loads of useful information about job-hunting and so on.... I even lodged with them for a good few months.

Gerard's father was also most impressed that, as a South African, I could pronounce his son's name correctly.

One of Pete's suggestions even led to my being offered a job in Melbourne, Australia. I gratefully accepted.... - They even offered to sponsor me in to Australia as a permanent resident!

Many years down the track, Gerard and family decide that living in Sydney is a pain in the butt! Auckland looks very attractive.... Wife also thinks that Auckland is a good idea. - They move and settle on Auckland's North Shore, which just happens to be where all of my family live.

In an apparently unconnected move, one of my old university mates married the younger sister of another South African engineer who lives in Auckland. - This is all getting bloody incestuous! One thing has led to another and a whole bunch of us Wits engineers are going to be meeting in Auckland in December 2006 for New Year celebrations.

Last weekend, I phoned Gerard and told him about the New Year party. I suggested that he and wife attend..... "We won't be able to.... We have a tradition of a bloody big hungi at Hokianga Harbour with a bunch of old school mates."

A "hungi" is the Maori equivalent of a braai. You heat up rocks, throw meat onto them. Cover them with leaves. And then cover the leaves with earth. Leave the meat to cook..... During this process, copious amounts of alcohol are consumed.

"We might gate-crash!" say I.

"You'll be welcome!" says he.

Can you just picture it? - A bunch of middle-aged South Africans, Rhodesians, Pakeha (white New Zealanders), Maori and Dutchmen meeting up at the north of New Zealand's North Island for a New Year's end party??!! - Hendrik Verwoerd would be turning in his grave! How many RPM?

Edited May 21, 2006 by Larry

[Bob]

This is just how life should be . . . . people having a good time together and being mates, sharing the good times and helping in the bad times. . . . Saffers, Aussies and Kiwis.

Larry sounds the sort of bloke you could warm to and invite round without any dramas to one of your parties.

Unfortunately, it hasn't always been that way with Australians and South Africans.

I flew from Sydney to Harare in Oct 1985 with my wife and son, Bobby, who was a 2 yr old toddler at the time.

We hadn't been overseas for a few years, so were excited to be going to another part of the world for a few weeks.

I bounded up at the check-in counter in Sydney airport and heard a lady next to me speaking with a South African accent. I asked her if she was indeed a South African going home. She hung her head and said, in a very low voice to me, that she was a South African, ashamed of being overheard by anybody else around.

So . . . what had caused this lady to be so ashamed??

Up until the end of the 1950's people were still emigrating to different parts of Africa (as well as Canada, Australia and N.Z.). The school atlases had red (for British) and blue (for French) on the page of Africa.

Independence of the various French and British colonies in the late 50's and 1960's and the halt in emigration to Africa, saw a new outlook usher itself in.

Colonialism was finished.

It was the time of the native African population to start being the masters of their own destinies with all it entailed.

The Western press and TV news reports began to show images of the struggle between Whites and Blacks in southern Africa, where most of the white people had settled over the centuries. Inevitably, public opinion swayed in support of the natives population being allowed to do their own thing. It was the age of Democracy and equality for all, after all.

Colonialism was seen as a relic of the 19th Century and part of the Imperial ambitions that Britain and France had at the time.

In Britain, Australia and N.Z., we were fed a daily diet of blacks being bashed up with sjamboks and carted off in armoured police vehicles.

South Africans and Rhodesians were the "embarassment" of the West . . . a left-over from Imperial and colonial days. The sooner they let the blacks control their own destiny and accept their lot, the better it would be for the civilised world and its democratic values, etc. etc.

This lady I met at Sydney airport would have been told . . . . probably more than once . . . that her country was bad news in its dealings with the native people.

The issue of racism would have been raised over and over again, ad nauseum, so she just wanted to forget about racism and the whole damn thing of Whites and blacks.

Her country, South Africa, in 1985 would have been on the news about Soweto and the Uprisings there.

So, for thirty years, Aussies, Kiwis and Poms have had the 7 O'clock TV news reporting on how bad life was in South Africa and Rhodesia. It was almost shoved down our throats, in the West.

Little wonder that South Africans wanting to get away from all the rubbish there, just kept their mouths shut in public in the 1970's until the 1990's.

Aussies are changing nowadays though.

We now hear of dictatorship in Zimbabwe, the local people fleeing to South Africa for work, the White farmers being killed and others starving.

The 7 O'clock news is now reporting on all the sensationalism in Zim and S.A. . . . and it's not Whites bashing Blacks anymore.

It's what Mugabe's thugs are doing to their own people and the Whites have no power to prevent this happening.

I think a lot of Aussies now are beginning to appreciate what the struggle of the White population was about . . . and the devestating impact on Africa that "liberation" brings.

From a personal view, I've always had good times with South Africans and Rhodesians.

Back in 1985, when Soweto was going on and Aussies loathed what was happening on their TV sets, my wife and I were treated well by Whites in Zimbabwe and South Africa. We were treated just like one of the family and felt no hostility toward ourselves, as Australians. On more than one occasion we were sought out and invited back to stay overnight with Rhodesians in their homes. We stayed in a home in Cape Town for a couple of nights, King William's Town and in Vereeniging.

We came away knowing that South Africans and Rhodesians would easily fit into Australian life . . . bullshit on the TV aside . . . and that's how I came to lob onto the forum . . . . to make you guys feel welcome and at home in Australia.

If anyone gives you a hard time nowadays, in Australia, for being South African or white Zimbabwean, tell them to just watch the TV news at 7pm.

It's a whole new world out there and they need to wise up.

I've found the one or two Aussies that pick on newcomers to Australia are generally "losers" and don't fit in well with their mates. They are seen as gutless, because they need all their Australian mates around them before they criticise the newcomer on his own . . . . and Aussies don't appreciate gutlessness.

Aussies will complain up the pub, with a few beers in them, about certain ethnic groups, but seldom let anyone outside know how they feel.

South Africans are liked by Aussies, as long as the beer they all drink is cold and wet and they can play cricket well.

Sounds like a bloke like Larry would fit into an Australian pub with ease!

[Otto]

Can you just picture it? - A bunch of middle-aged South Africans, Rhodesians, Pakeha (white New Zealanders), Maori and Dutchmen meeting up at the north of New Zealand's North Island for a New Year's end party??!! - Hendrik Verwoerd would be turning in his grave! How many RPM?

Or can you picture this - my work situation: Our department has an Italian migrant trainee, above him is an english Australian, above her is me, a Bolander, above me is a Freestater from Bloem, above him is an Indian, above him is a Rhodesian (he got out before Bonkers Bob started his circus). And this the story of Griffith NSW, a town of migrants - 40 first languages in a town of 29000 people.

On the "whenwe's" subject, I couldnt agree more. By coming here and accepting permanent residence, or trying to achieve PR or citizenship, you are trying to become an Ozzie. And to become that whingeing about your chutney and maids doesnt help a bit.

[Ajay]

Hi Bob,

I have to commend you on this post. I’ve often wondered what you were doing here on out forum – being an Aussie – and now I see that you are also one of those that just want to help us feel welcome.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but you’ve certainly summed up the feeling of what being a South African in the 1980’s felt like. As many on the forum may know, I am originally from Scotland and emigrated to South Africa as a young girl with my mom & dad. As a young adult, I travelled back to see my extended family a few times during the late 80’s. After being taunted and bullied for being a South African whenever I went out to a pub/club, I eventually started telling strangers that I was Australian (they couldn’t tell the difference in the accents anyway) just so that I would be left alone. Everyone had an opinion, regardless of what I tried to tell them. Then I took the time to watch the news, and to my horror, saw how SA was being portrayed. In particular, I remember an extraordinary documentary type of show, showing the whites just stepped over the dead or unconscious struggle fighters in parks and on sidewalks in the city of Johannesburg. (???!!!HUH!) Try as I might to tell my family that these people were not dead or unconscious, I couldn’t get anyone to believe me. Anyone who lived in JHB in those times will remember how Joubert Park and the park opposite Edgars in the city (by the fountain) was always filled with sleeping / drunk revellers on a Saturday morning. Dead bodies indeed!!! And so I came to understand why we were so hated. I never understood the need for the sensationalism – surely the reality of apartheid was bad enough? Why did it need to be exaggerated by anyone??

For this reason, I was quite nervous about how we would be accepted into the Australian society when we made the difficult to leave SA last year. I worried about having to explain myself and having to apologise for a history that I believed I had helped change (through voting in the referendum for a democratic South Africa). I tossed and turned at the thought of having to ‘hang my head’ like the lady in the airport. But I knew that I was making the right decision and that I would surely find some support and understanding.

Well, I needn’t have worried! With the exception of one lone kiwi who'd had one too many ales, everyone that I have met, young and old and from all walks of life, have welcomed us with the openest of arms and the warmest of hearts. I have had nothing but absolute acceptance and in fact, sympathy, from every Australian that I have had the joy of meeting in the past 8 months. They are fascinated by our stories, shocked at our experiences, and supportive of our difficult decisions. I will always be a proud Scot and a proud South African, but believe me when I say that I also plan on being a very proud Australian!

Love

Ajay

[NZHigh]

Kia Ora.

Hehe, I’ll can well imagine Larry and Bob being good Mates , having a great time at a Hangi. Great posts from all above. Good on you.

A proper Hangi can take as long as 7 hours to cook and then the feast of the eating continues. Imagine the hours of ‘friendship’ before the actual eating. We (as new Aussies and Kiwis) so quickly fall into the somewhat lazy and convenient habit of using the quick and easy gas Barbie, cooking the food in record time, hardly long enough for one beer.

Larry if you guys can get to a Hangi, a real one not the touristy ones, like your Mate has mentioned to go for it. It really is awesome.

By the way, it’s hangi not hungi. If you can speak Afrikaans pronounce it in Afrikaans so hangi as in hang (Afr)-ie (Afr). The Maori ‘a’ is as in the English ‘far’, and the ‘i’ as in ‘me’.The following from a site that won’t mind the promotion of Maori culture about a hangi:

Hangi is a special way of cooking food under the ground using red hot rocks and steam.

Volcanic rocks which are light and easy to heat get heated on a pile of burning wood.

When the rocks are hot they need to be carefully rolled or lifted into a pit in the ground and the wire baskets of food quickly put on top.

The baskets get covered with wet sheets and the wet sheets get covered with wet sacks. Then the sacks are covered with dirt.

The water in the wet cloths turns into steam when it gets heated by the heat in the rocks and because the steam can’t escape through the dirt it heats and cooks the food.

It takes about 7 hours to cook a hangi from start to finish but the food is delicious!

The best kind of wood to use in a hangi is wood like Manuka or tea tree because of the way it burns and because of the lovely smoke flavour it gives to the food.

The meat should be in the first basket and you can use meats like chicken, fish, shellfish, pork and lamb.

Vegies like potatoes, kumara, pumpkin, and corn on the cob can all go in the top basket.

You can even cook steam pudding in a hangi too!

For those who are unfamiliar with Maori, many of the words seem very similar and could be slightly confusing such as Hangi, Tangi (which is the Maori approach to a burial) and Hongi which is the traditional Maori greeting with the nose and forehead touching. There is of course great spiritual significance to this, basically the union of life forces.

Hei Kona from New Zealand

[Bob]

Well the Maoris can do their thing, but I find it hard to beat a big fire in the bush with all your mates around and having a few beers.

Australian blokes just love to get together and be with their mates. . . . . we thought of bringing one of the wives along to be the "cook" but decided against it. It could cramp our style no end.

The bigger the flames and the more the grog starts to flow, the bigger the tales. . . . and more than a few of my mates have got a sharp wit that they just bring on at precisely the right moment, so that we're all in stitches.

I still have to figure out if it's the beer or the wit that keeps us all giggling???

You ought to get into a group of mates with 4WDs, head for the Outback for a week and enjoy yourselves.

There is 3,000,000 sq miles (7,500,000 sq kms) of Australia just waiting for you to enjoy once you get a rig (Patrol or Land Cruiser + caravan) and head bush . . . . absolutely magic, mate!

[Guest Larry]

NZHigh... I deliberately mis-spelt "hangi" as "hungi" so that people would at least have an idea how to pronounce it.

My ex and I went and did one of the touristy hangi's near Rotorua. I had no problems, but she was sick for the whole of the next week! I don't know what caused it as she and I ate exactly the same food.

Edited May 24, 2006 by Larry

[NZHigh]

Thought you may have. You've been around these parts far too long not to know.

Bob, I believe you 110% Mate. Now to tell the wife I'm planning an Aus trip without her.

[Guest Larry]

I am definitely not going to spell "Whakapapa" the way it is pronounced!!

[Guest Seoul Sister]

Now to tell the wife I'm planning an Aus trip without her.

If you wait until after I arrive, I would love to have her over. We can do civilized, girl things, in the lap of luxury, while enjoying our creature comforts, like running water, electricity, spa baths, swimming pools, microwave ovens, malls, coffee mornings, etc. No reason she should miss out on enjoying Oz - girl style !!

Love

SS

[Bob]

Larry!

When I lived in Auckland back in the mists of time (1973), the suburb of Whenuapei was pronounced Fen-oo-a-pie

I take it that Whukapapa is pronounced with an "F" . . . if my memory serves me right.

I know a lot of Maori women, to me, were pretty ugly, but . . . .

Edited May 25, 2006 by Bob

[NZHigh]

I am definitely not going to spell "Whakapapa" the way it is pronounced!!

Oh I already did (in very basic format) over here: http://www.saaustralia.org/index.php?showtopic=462 POST #4

I also mentioned it in a skiing thread but that has long since disappeared form the ChitChat section.

For those wondering what we are on about "WH" in Maori is pronounced "F". No "F" in the Maori alphabet, so Mangawhai Heads is Mangafai Heads, Whangarei in Northland is Fangarei.

Apart from Whakapapa there is also Whakamara and Whakatane ("tannie") amongst others.

[Guest Seoul Sister]

Hehehehehe. And I thought the Dutch surnames were funny !!!

Love

SS