School Systems in Australia

[Pippa]

Dear SAAustralia Friends,

I need your help.

Someone has recently told me that the schools in Australia are much worse than in South Africa. Although my logic tells me that it cannot be as bad, I am concerned.

One of our main concerns in South Africa is the schooling system and that it does not work at the moment. I am not an expert on this topic, but would like to know what school system Australia is using.

Is the school system also outcome based as in South Africa?

I really look forward to hearing from you.

Have a great week!

Pippa

[Guest Seoul Sister]

Someone has recently told me that the schools in Australia are much worse than in South Africa.

One of our main concerns in South Africa is the schooling system and that it does not work at the moment.

Hi dear Pippa,

This is a very interesting question ! Could you please explain to me what you mean by Australian schools are worse. In which sense did they mean this - discipline, curriculum, standard of teaching, choice of study materials or maybe just in general ? I'm not asking to be a pain, I just want to try and answer your question as factually and objectively as possible and so I want to be sure that I understand the question correctly. Do you mean that a child from a South African Public school (like e.g. Menlo Park Laerskool) would be better off staying put than rather joining children at an Australian public school ? (according to the ppl who gave you their insightful opinion ) I don't want to go into all kinds of international test results, etc (and maybe bore you to tears) if you are actually talking about discipline, or some other factor..

Looking forward to having a chat on this !

Love

SS

[Pippa]

Dear SS,

Thank you for your willingness to respond to my question. I was informed by a family member (who is, by the way, totally against our plans to move to Oz) that the curriculum is not up to date and "behind" the South African school system.

According to him, a colleague's son went with his father to Australia a few years ago. The son subsequently returned to SA to live with his mother and is now really suffering to keep up with his schoolwork, as he is far behind his peers in terms of schoolwork.

The reason for actually asking this is that I need some concrete facts to present to them, which hopefully state the opposite. It is so difficult, as some of our family members just make facts of hearsay/assumptions to try and keep us here!!! We don't even have children as yet!!!!

Unfortunately, we told them one of our reasons for leaving is the poor school system in SA. I don't want to appear uninformed and would therefore like to present them with concrete facts as to what the curriculum entails and how it is accepted worldwide. (I am convinced that a matric or similar qualification from Australia will be more accepted worldwide than a matric from South Africa.)

I probably made the mistake for just assuming that the Australian school system / curriculum are more advanced than the SA school system.

Any comments or feedback would be appreciated.

I look forward to hearing from you!

Pippa

[Ajay]

Hi Pippa,

I have 2 kids in school here - one in primary school and one in high school - so hopefully I can give you some sound advice. Both of my boys went to private school in SA, after a short stint at our local government school back in the late 90's. My older son is academically inclined, and my younger one attends school because they let him play sport in between those pesky classes Not quite so academically inclined, one could say

In SA, my younger son really battled. He often would buckle under the work load and got to the point where he didn't want to go to school. My older boy had no problems and achieved well. They left SA at the end of November last year and started school here at the end of January. Matthew, the eldest, went to high school (they start it in Std 5 / Year 7 here) and continues to achieve well. He attends a public school called Cherrybrook Technology High. His feedback is that the levels are very similar. The subjects he is doing are: with maths (including problem solving), english, technology (including computer science, food technology, textiles, horticulture, agriculture), PE, science (wasn't done in SA), drama, visual arts, music, language (where they are currently studying French, German, Japanese), history, geography, woodwork, metalwork. Once they get to Year 9, they choose a 'stream' and also get to choose from some other electives, like automotive mechanics, electrical engineering, architectural design.

There is less homework, I think, but the kids are completely engaged and the teachers treat them like young adults - something Matthew really appreciated.

The real revelation is Liam, my younger son. He actually seems to be enjoying school here! Now, there is no question that they seem to do a bit less work and there is definitely less homework, bit so what - the kids enjoy going and that is half the battle won. An Australian HSC (High School Certificate) is more valuable than a matric. More importantly, they get into Unviersity and get to study whatever they desire, provided that their marks are good enough.

But let's be candid here - at the end of the day, they go to uni, get a degree, become world class doctors, dentists, teachers, hairdressers - whatever. Would it really matter if the standard at matric or high school education even was slightly lower? Personally, I think it is more important that we get well balanced, happy, motivated teens out of the school system than to churn out academically superior kids that still can't get into university or get a job because of unemployment.

Don't let anyone try to bend your ear. The school system here is perfectly good - just like everything else

Cheers

Ajay

[Guest Jules]

Hi Pippa

I think, like everywhere else it depends on what school you are talking about and also on your own child's personality and previous school experience.

I have 2 children, 1 in grade 7, the other in grade 3. I agree with Ajay that the children definetely don't seem to get as much homework as they did in South Africa. However school finishes later here (usually around 3pm) and a lot of children have to catch buses, making it about 4pm before they arrive home, so not having to do hours of homework gives them a bit of free time for other activities.

The majority of teachers here are wonderful, they treat the kids with respect and really promote self expression which all contributes to a more well balanced person. A lot of the state schools have special learning facilities, which my son made use of when we first arrived here as he was in Grade 2 but, having gone to an Afrikaans school in South Africa, was having trouble with the transition back to English reading and writing.

One of the big differences is that they are not as rigid with their appearance rules here. It's not uncommon to see boys with long hair and a lot of the kids have piercings and such like. If you have one of those boys who is always complaining about being forced to cut his hair because it is touching his collar then this is the place to be

In a word .. relax

Julie

PS. It's a strange thing, but I am sure most of the people who have made the move or are in the process of doing so have experieced this in varying degrees. You seem to get people coming out of the woodwork with all sorts of weird and wonderful statistics about how bad Australia (or wherever you are headed) is and what a mistake you are making etc etc. You are doing the right thing, trying to get a balanced view and various different opinions, but it can be quite unsettling. Don't let them cloud your judgement, you are doing the right thing

[Guest Seoul Sister]

Hi there Pippa,

Firstly I am very glad to see the very sound advice from the gals ! Both Ajay and Jules have made excellent points. I am going to refrain from chit-chat, ( SHOCKING I KNOW !! ) as I have a lot I want to say and I have promised you the factual approach.

Firstly. With regard to the example your family has mentioned. There is no proof that the fact that he is struggling in a SA school has anything to do with academic standards. He could be emotionally distraught after being yanked back and forth between countries. He could be missing his dad, who is now living in another country, having problems adjusting in his surrounding, home environment, country, etc. Taking one incident and making it the norm is highly unscientific and a HUGE generalization at best. I was never mugged in South Africa. If I go out tomorrow night at 2 o'clock and go walking around the (don't even know if there is such a thing but anyway) dangerous part of Seoul with my handbag in my hand and a camera around my neck and I get mugged.. would it be fair to say that Korea is more dangerous than SA because I had never been mugged in SA, yet I was mugged in Korea ? Nope, I don't think so. One tree doesn't make a forest...

Secondly. Standards when it comes to schools are dependent on a lot of factors. Even though a school can generally have very high standards with excellent pass rates, a lot depends on individual teachers. I am sure many ppl can testify to a particular teacher changing their love for a subject, creating interest in a subject, being particularly good/bad at getting their point across, etc. A child struggling in a class, does not necessarily have to do with the standard at which it is taught, it could be that the particular teacher isn't explaining clearly or that an (for instance) kinesthetic learner is forced to learn through auditory means, which can cause great problems.

Thirdly. There are international independent bodies who keep tabs on things like schooling standards world wide. The best known association for this is :

International Association for the Evaluation of Educational Achievement (IEA)

http://www.iea.nl/

It is an internationally accepted principle that the standard of schooling can be judged by testing 3 elements.

1. The standard of science 2. The standard of maths 3. The level of Literacy.

The first two are tested by a well-known international test which is conducted every few years known as TIMSS - The Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS) was developed by the International Association for the Evaluation of Educational Achievement (IEA) to measure trends in students' mathematics and science achievement. (46 countries participating including SA)

While the second is tested by a well-known international test known as PIRLS - Progress in International Reading Literacy Study(SA does not take part in this)

http://pirls.bc.edu/

Another well-respected test for literacy is PISA (also mentioned by Riekie on another interesting thread) - The Programme for International Student Assessment (PISA) is an internationally standardised assessment that was jointly developed by participating countries and administered to15-year-olds in schools. (SA does not take part in this one either)

http://www.pisa.oecd.org/pages/0,2966,en_3...1_1_1_1,00.html

You can go and have a look at Australia's achievements on the Literacy track, eventho' it won't help our argument at the moment as we can't use it for comparison without participation from SA.

As SA does take part in the maths and science standards test the results could provide an interesting answer to the question. The test is conducted with two different age groups, 4th graders and 8th graders. SAffer 4th graders did not take part and so we take a look at the results for 8th graders (the year that children turn 13 at school, which would be Grade 7 in the average SA school).

http://nces.ed.gov/TIMSS/Results03.asp

8th Grade Results

Table 5 - Average mathematics scale scores of eighth-grade students, by country: 2003

International average score 466

Australia 505 (position 14)

USA 504

South Africa 264 (bottom of the list)

Math average has fallen for SA from 275 (in 1999)

Australia has gone down slightly from 509 (in 1995)

Table 6. Average science scale scores of eighth-grade students, by country: 2003

International average score 473

USA & Australia 527 (position nr 9)

South Africa 244 (bottom of the list)

SA has stayed stable from 243 (in 1999)

Australia has gone up by 13 points from 514 (in 1995)

From this there should be no doubt in your mind that there is a significant difference between the standard of maths and science in the two countries.

Having said this we should keep in mind that there are effectively still two different schooling systems in SA at the moment. (I am going to try and be as poilitically correct as possible now). Comparing the results of a school like Menlo Park Laerskool to a school in rural Kwazulu- Natal makes no sense as the differences are huge. But I am sure we will all agree that once University level is reached these differences should be equalled out and the standard should be the same. Yet the standard of Universities and their recognition in the world arena has taken some serious beating.

http://www.hsf.org.za/%23ArticleDatabase/a...view.asp?id=296

Helen Suzman Foundation

"The long-term effect of releasing under-qualified students, from both schools and universities, into the economic mainstream means the corporate world faces the larger problem of having to spend ever-larger amounts of money and time on trying to impart true skills," he says.

Many large companies already spend up to 10 per cent of payroll costs on staff education, training and development, compared to the international norm of 4 to 6 per cent. It's a high price to pay, especially considering that South Africa spends 5,6 per cent of GDP on education, more than most other developing countries.

There is a significant and unexplained disjuncture between pupils' performance in matric and South Africa's abysmal performance in international comparative studies of pupil achievement, where it often ranks below other developing countries.

Many ppl argue that an easy way of proving that Matric standards are dropping is the number of A's obtained by pupils in recent years. When standards were judged as competitive in the world arena, 5 or 6 A's were seen as a top achievement, where 20 years later pupils are achieving 9, 10 A's in Matric. Are pupils getting so much smarter, or are standards dropping ?

SA Varsity rankings world wide :

http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/ranking.htm

Australian National University – world ranking 56 (3 in Asia Pacific)

University of Melbourne – world ranking 82 (7 in Asia Pacific)

University of Cape Town - 240

University of Witwatersrand 390

Positions 400-500

University of Kwazulu-Natal

University of Pretoria

http://www.webometrics.info/

Australian top 3

1 AUSTRALIAN NATIONAL UNIVERSITY (worldwide ranking 57 )

2 UNIVERSITY OF MELBOURNE (worldwide ranking 74)

3 UNIVERSITY OF SYDNEY (worldwide 93)

South African top 3

1 UNIVERSITY OF CAPE TOWN (worldwide ranking 546)

2 STELLENBOSCH UNIVERSITY (worldwide ranking 548)

3 UNIVERSITY OF PRETORIA (worldwide ranking 554)

There are also other factors influencing South African schools which we should look at. I will discuss in a little while, hehehehe, take your time to read this while I go out and get a Starbucks Grande !! *phew* and rest them ol' fingers for a while... (Whether Matric standards have dropped or not, I want to have a quick chat about in the next part...). Hope this has helped you so far, and that this is the kind of info you are looking for.

Chat further in a while

Love

SS

Sorry had to edit. Just saw one of the URL's wasn't working..

Edited April 25, 2006 by Seoul Sister

[Queensland Girl]

Dear Pippa

SS has given you ALL the ammunition you need.

My concern with this is that falling school standards is not what this is all about.

These family members do not want you to go.

Once you have told them the FACTS re school standards, they will find something else.

They are prepared to listen to "all the bad things" about Australia but are not prepared to look at what is happening in South Africa.

Good Luck

[Guest Seoul Sister]

Hi everyone,

I agree 100% with QLD girl. Even though there is no harm in educating ourselves on something like the education system in Oz and how it compares to elsewhere, this is actually not the solution to Pippa's problem. Both Jules and Ajay also mentioned encouraging things with regard to ignoring negative comments about Australia and believing in Oz as a good choice for yourself and your (future) kids.

Pippa, what your family is doing, many of us have experienced. Otto even had a thread on it - can't remember what it was called now. South Africa is a dangerous place, with huge racial tension, high crime, high unemployment, corruption, and a whole array of other problems including AIDS. Some ppl choose to ignore it and justify their decision by running down any and all other countries. Ignore them. You are doing the right thing ! As Oprah always says :

When we know better, we do better.

Nothing wrong with you knowing better...

Love

SS

[Pippa]

Hi Everyone,

I can’t thank you enough for all your comments, feedback and facts.

You are all correct; regardless of what I tell them about the education system in Australia, they will still not believe it and will do everything to keep us in South Africa. The thing that frustrates me the most, is that they tend to regard everything that they hear as facts!!! It is so funny, but we know they love us and just don’t want us to leave.

As most of you know, my husband is busy with his studies to be admitted as a solicitor in Australia before we can start applying for skilled migration visas. This will take time and we will probably only leave for Australia by the end of 2007. Instead of enjoying our time together we are constantly debating the subject with the specific side of the family and it really makes me miserable!

Luckily, we do have family members that share our views and see the bigger picture! We get great support from!

By the way, I don’t know if you heard, but Parktown school boys was held at gun point yesterday in their classroom. Here is an extract from 702 Talk Radio:

Parktown school boys held at gun point

Several grade 11 children at Parktown Boys High will be debriefed today, after they were held at gunpoint in their class yesterday. Three men climbed over the perimeter fence shortly before school ended and entered a classroom.

They then held the boys and their teacher up and robbed them of money and jewellery. Headmaster Tom Clarke says the boys are traumatised and will be offered individual counseling.

Clarke says the robbery took place despite a recent increase in security measures. The school spent R370 000, but more will be done to prevent incidents such as this.

Thank you once again for all your help! Thanks to SS, I have enough ammunition on this topic!

Have a great Anzac day!

Pippa

[Cindylou]

Hi Pippa

I think that QG hit the nail on the head - this is not about school standards, once you nail the relatives with the info from SS (leave them reeling) they will come up with another negative (the health service, crime, etc) and you will then rush around finding out about that topic.

There are people who don't want you to leave, the reasons are various, but keep in mind that when you decide to leave other people may take it as a criticism of their decision not to or their lifestyle. Once upon a time I dropped out of corporate life and went and lived the laid back coastal life. There were a few of us in our late twenties to early thirties living in a village full of retirees and we called ourselves "corporate refugees". All of us had the same experience with regards to our friends still in the Big Smoke (JHB) - they felt ill at ease in our company, as if we'd broken some great rule in life and by dropping out had somehow cast negative aspersions on their lifestyles.

My suggestion is that you think up a few phrases to use as deflection - such as "everyone has to make their own decisions, and we all need to respect those decisions" or "This decision is really personal and I don't feel comfortable discussing it here / with you" and how about, when you hear about the "friend of a friend" aka FOAF "isn't it funny / strange / interesting how that person's experienced differed so much from the majority of immigrant's"

Maybe it'll work, maybe not, but remember that you have the right to make this move and ultimately are not obliged to justify it to anyone else.

Good luck

Cindy

[Lindy-Lee]

If I may be so bold as to give my opinion and not facts...but IF, lets say IF, the education level was worse in Aus than SA...atleast with a "worse education" our kids will beable to get, not just jobs, but better jobs than in SA.

Ans isn't that one of all our goals...to provide a better future for our kids (even for those who don't have kids yet!).

That's just the way that I look at it.

And NO I don't for one minute think that Aus education is worse than SA education.

My daughter is in Yr 3 and doing so well.

There...now I've said what I wanted.

Thanx

[Dreamcatcher]

I have found that the quickest way stop these type of comments (I have heard from a friend of a friend and so on) is to look genuinely interested, ask for this person's name and phone number, because you "would really like to talk to them about this, and find out more"

This usually leaves most people with their foot in their mouth, as they then don't have an answer for you!

Good luck, this is a hard fight to fight, and in the end, no-one wins. Everyone ends up losing something, so the best thing would be for them to just enjoy the time they still have with you. My sister-in-law said to me, just before we left, (in tears - of course): "I don't know what got into my brother, we weren't brought up like this."

Thank goodness, people change!

[Mara]

Oh my, dreamcatcher, that really caught my funny bone. I can just imagine the haughty tante being asked for the phone number of the person that told her the story, which she has just dished up for you as the honest truth!

You are right though, I also found that people had such negative things to say, that most of the time we just kept it to ourselves and waited till the last minute to tell anybody that we were leaving!

[Queensland Girl]

Dreamcatcher

That is th BEST reply I have heard .Wish I had thought of that one, and had been able to use it.

[Rich]

If I may be so bold as to give my opinion and not facts...but IF, lets say IF, the education level was worse in Aus than SA...atleast with a "worse education" our kids will beable to get, not just jobs, but better jobs than in SA.

Ans isn't that one of all our goals...to provide a better future for our kids (even for those who don't have kids yet!).

That's just the way that I look at it.

And NO I don't for one minute think that Aus education is worse than SA education.

My daughter is in Yr 3 and doing so well.

There...now I've said what I wanted.

Thanx

I like the angle you're coming at this from LL. Made me think and question my assumptions on why we do things. To take your line of thinking further, perhaps the reason why we're so anxious about education standards in SA is because we think it is the only thing that it is going to give us the competitive advantage in competing for a smaller pool of decent jobs. If unemployment was low and jobs plentiful in SA perhaps we wouldn't be so anxious and concerned about the issue.

Not to say that education standards are not important - they are, but surely emotional intelligence is a far better predicter of success, and I get the feeling from the various threads I've read, that Australian schooling and education is far more conducive to developing balanced, emotionally intelligent individuals.

Also, I've noticed a tendency in SA where many white males are becoming less open to sharing their skills, experience and knowledge with other colleagues for fear that they are giving up their competitive advantage in holding on to their jobs / getting ahead. As a result you end up with many organisations hamstrung with people reluctant to meaningfully empower others, to the detriment of everyone.

My personal experience of Australians, on the other hand, is far different and I find that they are generally more supportive of each other (even if they don't particularly like each other) and better able to work cohesively as a team. I suspect this is because they do not continually operate from a position of fear and do not see success as a zero-sum game, to the same extent that we in SA do. In SA we face fear on so many different levels and it often compromises our capacity as a nation to act in emotionally intelligent ways. We often just degenerate into looking after individual short term self-interests.

I sincerely believe that that's why the Aussie sports teams always do so well - not necessarily because they always have the better players, but because they don't play with the same fear South Africans do and they therefore play with more maturity and intelligence. South Africans are scared of failure because the consequences are generally always greater and so we are inconsistent in playing to our full potential.

[sa2auz]

Hi there Pippa

When we left SA we were also told that the schools were bad, the medical system failing and that there was such a bad water shortage we would all die of dehydration.

The people making the comments never had the means to visit Aus or immigrate. Our family also had heard via friends that the schools were bad but they were so surprised and couldn't stop praising the schools when they actually came to visit.

My son goes to a Independant School, fees are $2700, there are 2 classes for each year and he is in year 3. The headmistress knows every child by name. The teachers recognise and talk to you even if your child is not in their class. My son in year 2/grade 2 got 4 pages of pretty advanced maths every Thursday, 100 spelling words and a speech to return by the next Wednesday. My hubby spent a day in my sons class last year and he couldn't believe the amount of work they do. He said during class the kids don't stop and its no wonder my son is exhausted when he gets home. My son battled with the jump from SA Grade 1 we left in the November to Aus Year 1 in Maths just because of the terminology and the difference in the way the children were taught. My son is now doing well and loves going to school. I think alot depends on what school you came from and what school you are going to.

If you have any idea of where you want to settle check out that area and all the schools around. Within 4km I have 3 public schools and 2 independant schools and I would sent my child to any of these without hesitation.

Good Luck

[Stuart and Jill]

Dear SS,

Thank you for your willingness to respond to my question. I was informed by a family member (who is, by the way, totally against our plans to move to Oz) that the curriculum is not up to date and "behind" the South African school system.

According to him, a colleague's son went with his father to Australia a few years ago. The son subsequently returned to SA to live with his mother and is now really suffering to keep up with his schoolwork, as he is far behind his peers in terms of schoolwork.

Hi Pippa

I have also had my fair share of horror stories by family members completely un-supportive of our plans. One that comes to mind is a "story" of "someone" this person knows who went to Oz and couldn't find work and ended up living in a trailer park and then came home and was soooo happy (wouldn't you know it) .... pressed for the details it was someone at work who mentioned something about someone she knows (excellent I think not).

Outcomes based education in SA means that bright kids will effectively have a ball and chain attached to them and the work will progress only as slowly as the slowest kid. Government schools have been mandated with an effective 1 teacher to 60 pupils according to a recent article in the Sunday times and a friend of ours who works at one of the better private high schools had an urgent staff meeting regarding the rising problem of locker room rape.

Now I don't mean to sound all gloom and doom - there are certainly still excellent schools here as there are probably some quite bad schools in Oz - but I'd certainly check the facts before worrying about here-say from people who don't want you to go.

Stuart

Edited January 24, 2007 by Stuart and Jill

[PROzzie]

My dogter woon tans 'n skool by waar die Cambridge Curriculum toe gepas word vanaf 2 jarige ouderdom. Word daar so iets soortgelyk toegepas is Oz? Ons wil graag in Queensland vestig wanneer ons immigreer.

[Ingrid/ Hairdresser]

Does anyone know anythiing about Indooroopilly High School , Brisbane? My son is grade 11 and my daughter grade 9.