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Crime Stats incorrect


VeeM
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After the shocking RSA crime stats being posted, another site was used to reitterate the level of crime in SA worldwide...

This same site has the following on Australia which is confusing:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_...apes-per-capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_car_...rime-car-thefts

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_bur_...ries-per-capita

Are the stats on their website incorrect or (as previously asked in a post and subsequently ignored) is Crime on the up and up in Oz?

I don't want to sound negative and I'm not bashing Oz intentionally but there are a lot of people on the forum still in the process of making the move (ourselves included) and these kind of stats are concerning...

Can anyone explain how I may have read them incorrectly?

Thanks,

Vee

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Well, if you look at the data that you sent and chose "total crimes per capita" you can see that 1st world countries (UK, Aus etc) appear far worse than countries such as SA. This really has more to do with the accuracy of their reporting systems and what they view as criminal. I think it is true to say that throughout the developed world there has been an increase in crime (including violent crimes), but it is also nowhere near what we experienced in SA. We are currently in Sydney - there are kids in the parks, people walking their dogs in the park, women jogging onthe beach, no walls, certainly no barbed wire and electric fences. Of course, crime varies by area and crime can get better or worse, but there is no comparison between crime in SA and Australia (in my opinion).

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Guest colton

I don't usually reply to these queries because I feel I don't need to defend Australia. Sorry if I am coming across as agro or abrupt but I am giving my views to the general population and not you personally. Once again I feel that if anyone has ever done a LSD there would be no doubt in their mind concerning the crime in this country. I didn't bother looking at all the stats just the one on burglaries and really how on earth can they say Australia ranks number 1 on the list and South Africa number 10! :lol: Honestly what utter rubbish.

I know of NO ONE here amongst my friends or family who have EVER had their homes or cars broken into. Yes some know of others who have been but NEVER themselves. Can you say the same for your friends in RSA?

I know you are just asking about something that is of concern to you but I am so sick of people trying to find things wrong, you either want to immigrate or not. The choice is yours, my opinion or anyone else's shouldn't make a difference to you. Sometimes too much knowledge is a bad thing; in other words if you are looking for problems I promise you will find them.

Once again I apologise to you VeeM this question just happened to be the one that "broke the camel's back" in my case and you got the backlash, sorry!!! :)

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Hi Colton,

Thanks for the reply... I knew there would be someone to get 'defensive'... and that's okay. All I wanted was a response of some sorts... it was like everyone in the previous topic spoke around my question. :)

When I saw the stats for Rape in Aus... I knew their figures must be balony... which is why I asked if I was reading something incorrectly.

I agree with the LSD for those who are unsure... my husband's ticket is booked and paid for... but until he gets there... we're relying on you guys to help us with the uncertainty. In the previous post I asked if anyone had noticed an increase in "security" in their neighbourhoods.... I've noticed it from looking on the realestate.com.au website... so yes, that is a concern for me... I don't want to leave prison here to join a suburb that's starting to jail itself up. :lol:

Granted the crime will never be as it is in South Africa... but hearing from fellow users that they haven't known of any offences in their community is peace of mind. Remember from our side most immigrants are hounded by family and friends with horror stories of murders making the news... so when we question it on the forum and you guys can say "sure... and the last time something like that happened was in 1948" it's stuff we can take back to our families to settle them. I've already had a lot of help from Dax with regards to schooling and I've passed it onto my family.

So thanks again for the reply... :lol: The forum's about sharing and learning so I appreciate your feedback.

Vee

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Guest colton

Now that I'm in a better mood....... :unsure: Yesterday I took added notice of what my neighbourhood was like and no I haven't seen any added security. Most of the houses in my street, including my own, don't have walls of any sorts in the front. From what I could see none of us have burglar bars or security doors, and the windows and doors are street facing. There are no "security guard company" warnings and I get the impression of safety.

To add a downside I did notice that one of the larger, more affluent complexes in Surfers Paradise, has a large notice on their entrance gate stating "Caution Guard Dogs patrol this area at night!" so they more than likely have a problem in that area. Then again that is in the heart of Surfers and there are lots of opportunistic "travelers" in that area so maybe that is the reason.

To put it in perspective though I am very happy to let my youngest daughter of 17years go out at night with friends or jog in the evenings on her own or drive to work and back at all hours on her own, something that I would NEVER be happy with in South Africa.

I presume though that crime everywhere in the world is getting worse, people in general just seem to be losing all sense of decency but to state that Australia is number 1 in the burglary stats is ludicrous.

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Keep in mind: car theft includes ALL car theft - even the kid who hot-wires your car to take it for a joy ride. Car theft also does not mean hijackings (that is a completely different scenario altogether....) In South Africa, we were burgled 4 times and only reported the 1st one (after our experience with the incompetence of the SAPD, we did not even bother the next 3 times...) In Australia every single burglary is reported, even if they only took the hose from your garden or if they were caught in the act and made a run for it empty handed.

Furthermore, the record keeping & reporting in RSA is questionable. For instance. 1 Murder... Does that mean 1 person murdered or 1 incidence of murder or 1 person charged or 1 person found guilty? Eg if 1 person kills a family of 4 and is never caught - is that 1 case of murder - or 4? Does it "count" if no one is caught or found guilty? When & how do they actually add that figure to their stats?....

If you look at the RSA stats over the last 6 years for attempted murder (162 459) & assault with the intention to inflict grievous bodily harm (2 751 482) - what exactly is that? (By the way - these are the survivors - the intention was to kill!! :lol: ) Now, if someone breaks into your house and kills you. Say their defence is that they did not know you were there and killed you out of self defence (or whatever their excuse may be) - does that count as murder or do they slot it into the "Assault" section......???? Also, what exactly equates to assault? Is it the same for all countries? Or is it acceptable in one country to give someone a few punches to make yourself clear and not being charged for assault, whereas in another country, just by pushing your finger into someone's face could cause you to be charged? :whome:

Stats are a very good thing (as you may know, I LOVE stats! :blush: ) but, you should also compare apples with apples - especially when you base life changing decisions on it. I base my perceptions on both countries on what I see, live & experience every day. So far, I have not been disappointed! :unsure:

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I also wondered exactly how they came by the stats given for SA. There was a discussion on the TV last night about the latest SA crime stats and they admitted that certain police stations dont want to open a case for a crime because then that will make their crime stats look bad. So many rapes, robberies, attempted murders etc go unreported as the complainant cannot get anyone to take them seriously.

Zoot

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Hi Vee

Nationmaster is a very interesting site, however you should look at the source of the statistics. If you look at the bottom of each list in the links you supplied, you will see in the small print:

SOURCE: Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, covering the period 1998 - 2000 (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention)

Those stats are actually based on a UN survey, done over 7 years ago.

The realities are that here in S.A. we have to have things like high walls, barbed wire, armed response, beams across our gardens etc. From the comments I've heard in Australia many people don't even have walls or burglar bars.

That is quite telling in itself.

Regards,

Scott

After the shocking RSA crime stats being posted, another site was used to reitterate the level of crime in SA worldwide...

This same site has the following on Australia which is confusing:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_...apes-per-capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_car_...rime-car-thefts

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_bur_...ries-per-capita

Are the stats on their website incorrect or (as previously asked in a post and subsequently ignored) is Crime on the up and up in Oz?

I don't want to sound negative and I'm not bashing Oz intentionally but there are a lot of people on the forum still in the process of making the move (ourselves included) and these kind of stats are concerning...

Can anyone explain how I may have read them incorrectly?

Thanks,

Vee

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I read somewhere that 76% of all statistics are rubbish.....

:unsure:

Personally, other people's accounts of their first-hand experiences carry more weight for me. And by the way, I don't know ANYBODY in South Africa who hasn't been a victim of crime, even if just some sort of theft.

Australia, here we come!

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  • 2 months later...

The funny thing is that the stats all differ :lol: I was reading stats last week and SA featured in the top 4 for murder, rape, robbery etc. UK and Australia were very low in comparison - so it does make you wonder how stats can differ and where the information comes from :ilikeit:

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Hi all,

I just posted this article under "Carte Blanche" posting of a day or two earlier.

It is shocking!

No safety in numbers

28/09/2007 08:44 - (SA)

The latest Mo Ibrahim Index of African Governance has just been released.

Forty-eight countries in the sub-Saharan Africa have been ranked based on five categories of essential political goods: safety and security, rule of law, transparency and corruption, participation and human rights, sustainable economic development and final human development.

While SA ranked 5th in the overall standings, we were placed 46th as far as safety and security is concerned. Yes folks. 46th out of 48.

Perhaps a quote from the Ibrahim Foundation is apt: "Nation-states that are unable to meet these tests of safety and security are failed or collapsed states. Others, where the supply of these political goods is weak or questionable, are weak or failing nation-states. Strong nation-states do not exhibit such problems. Nor are the citizens of a modern nation-state safe or secure if the government in power cannot guarantee their personal security. Citizens demand to be free of mugging, car jacking, violent crime, and homicide."

Only war-ravaged Sudan and Burundi were considered more dangerous. Apparently Nigeria, Liberia, Rwanda and Zimbabwe are all safer places to be than here at home. But wait a second. Wasn't it said not too long ago that South Africa doesn't have a crime problem?

I'm not claiming that the report is accurate, but I do have concerns about the impact it may have on foreign investors and tourists who don't know any better.

On the odd chance that the report is correct, perhaps it's finally time for our government to wipe the rainbow-coloured muck out of their eyes and to realise that we have a very serious problem. It should then be a question of less talk, fewer commissions of inquiry and more action.

Boost the police budget and take legislative steps to properly empower them regain the upper hand over the element that is slowly destroying this country.

While a police force must operate within the bounds of the law, they should certainly not have to live in constant fear of infringing the "rights" of criminals who have absolutely no regard for the rights of their victims.

Get published on News24 by sending your article, story or column to us

Alias :ilikeit:

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Guest Chris Rimmer
After the shocking RSA crime stats being posted, another site was used to reitterate the level of crime in SA worldwide...

This same site has the following on Australia which is confusing:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_...apes-per-capita

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_car_...rime-car-thefts

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_bur_...ries-per-capita

Are the stats on their website incorrect or (as previously asked in a post and subsequently ignored) is Crime on the up and up in Oz?

I don't want to sound negative and I'm not bashing Oz intentionally but there are a lot of people on the forum still in the process of making the move (ourselves included) and these kind of stats are concerning...

Can anyone explain how I may have read them incorrectly?

Thanks,

Vee

The suggestion that car thests and rapes in Australia are more common place than in South Africa is just too absurd for words. May have more to do with S.A. Bureau of Statistics and their dodgy evaluation and reporting policies.

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Here is something most of you missed

SOURCE: Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, covering the period 1998 - 2000 (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention)

So firstly the stats are out of date and secondly they rely on things that are reported to the Police and something is done about them,

Always beware of stats they tell a distorted truth look at the numbers below involving car theft.

Rank Countries Amount (top to bottom)

#1 South Africa: 1.19538 per 1,000 people

#2 Seychelles: 0.788294 per 1,000 people

#3 Australia: 0.777999 per 1,000 people

Now you must remember that a vast majority of the population in South Africa do not own cars while the majority of Australian do own cars

if you were to say 10% of SA population owned a car then the number becomes 11.9538 per 1000 car owners

If you say 80% of Australians own cars then the number becomes about 1 per 1000 car owners in other owrds you have 10 times more chance of having your car stolen in SA than you do in South Africa, I have sucked the numbers out of my head to show an example of how stats can distort a fact.

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OK, I have read alot of posts that deals with crime and using it to justify the decision to leave SA.

I have to agree with Colton in that you have to make the decision and live with it. Good or bad. That is life.

To not make the decision or to doubt it because of crime statistics (however accurate or not) is just foolish. Everywhere in the world there is crime and being in a country where the probabilty is lower to get murdered, is no guarentee that you won't be murdered. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time, no matter where you are is just part of life and can happen to anyone.

It is easy to say that a 1st world country is better in terms of crime, but the sad thing is that a 1st world country brings along a different breed of criminal. I watched a program on the BTK killer in the USA on C&I last night. This was a guy who was a church leader, family man and good neighbour in a first world country where nobody would have suspected him, but yet he managed to stay a free man for 30 years. So you might find yourself in a strange environment facing the same prospect of dealing with the loss of a partner or child.

Our decision was also fueled by a break in at our home, but after 12 months of being busy with this process, that is the last thing I will use as a "reason". Because it is not actually a reason, but an excuse.

I can find a hundred excuses to emigrate, but the problem with excuses are that they tend to disappear when the underlying circumstances change. Reasons and dreams on the other hand don't.

Building a new life, creating a better life for YOU and your CHILDREN, doing what you always wanted to, etc. that are reasons to emigrate, not excuses to get away from SA. Excuses cause one to run away. That is the last thing I want to do. I want to run towards something and thinking about it that way, also makes it easier to make make peace with the decision.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Guest Vermeulens

Funny enough, I stopped reading newspapers and stopped watching news in 1990, because it depressed and angered me.

Since we are in the process of our application, I started a scrap book, per recommendation. The only problem with a scrap book, is that I am forced to read newspapers to get paper clippings ....

It came as a shock to me that in our area (Pretoria East), there are on average 4 murders per WEEK! The only thing they steal is usually a cellphone. I wonder if these murders were accurately reported and were in fact part of the statistics?

The mourning faces in the newspapers of the families robbed from their loved-ones are real!

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