Report back - Syndey LSD

[Constant]

Firstly - super thanks to Riekie for meeting with us.

We really appreciate the time and information you shared with us.

We left for a thorough look at Sydney about 4 weeks ago.

I have a job offer there and the intention was to really have a proper look at what the pro's and con's would be of a move to Sydney.

Here follows a personal impression of what the situation is.

Social Impressions

Australia has huge potential for further development and an excellent foundation that is being further developed in a sensible manner.

There are a many rules and regulations with accompanying checks and enforcement that may seem a little overdone to someone from a country where laws are regarded as guidelines in most cases.

The regard people have for each other and the way that all issues (especially the environment) is being handled shows a properly mature society with a long term future vision.

Work Environment

People are a more little laid back than equivalent business people in Jhb but they dress a little more formally.

If you don’t have a job in Australia, you are just plain lazy, totally illiterate, very snobbish, or all of the above. I saw at least 4 places advertising that they have jobs available on their front doors every day I was there.

Education

The education system seems really excellent, but it is difficult to comment without first hand experience.

Cost of living:

Basic living cost in Australia is higher than is South Africa. Expect to pay double for most things – and sometimes more...

Examples:

Train ticket – suburb to city: R35

“Pick ‘n Pay”– type prices:

Loaf of bread: R12 – R30

Litre of fresh milk: R12

Litre of long-life milk: R7

Kilo of lamb chops: R78 – R180 (depending on cut and grade)

Kilo of tenderised steak: R60

Kilo of fillet steak: R250

Kilo of good quality “wors”: R72

Kilo of marinated spare ribs: R66

Kilo of Jerky (biltong): R350 – R1200! (depending on type)

Vegetables and fruit: 4 times of what you pay in SA (at least)

Small cheesecake: R18

Café Latte: R24

Full-servicePay-TV: R610

Houses are especially expensive – they cost between 4 and 6 times of what they cost here (in reasonable suburbs in Sydney at least).

Don’t expect to rent for less than $300 per week if you have a family (R7200 per month). Realistically probably closer to $400 – (R9600 per month)

Some cars are significantly cheaper than in SA. (E.g. Kia Sedona and Chev Lumina (Holden Commodore) is up to R100k cheaper – but don’t expect to pay less for Volvo, BMW, Volkswagen or Mercedes)

Tax is about the same but at least you are getting basic heath care, basic education and a state pension back for that.

You need to pay “Super” (like a compulsory annuity) of about 9% of your package.

School fees are $5500 (R33000 per year) per child until you get permanent residency.

Depending on your visa and employer you could have LAFHA (Living away from home allowance) which should at least cover your rent. (Note: It falls away once you apply for permanent residency)

I know you can't work everything back to Rand - but it's the only way to relate to things properly. I.e. If you can earn 1.2x what you earn here, but food costs 1.9x more - it's actually about 1.6x more expensive than in SA.

My bottom line to this section is that you can expect a significantly less luxurious life if you get about the same pay as in South Africa.

Crime

The headlines for 3 days where of police that wounded a criminal after he stabbed his wife.

TV reported on a car that was stolen - but it was recovered the next morning.

School bullying (e.g. by way of SMS’s) is a “big” issue and everyone has been invited to send suggestions on how to reduce/ eliminate it.

I guess the guys would all die of stress if they had one Sunday newspaper like we have in SA.

Road safety

Sign on a road: Warning: Dangerous road section - 16 people killed since 1995. (And 6 of those where in a freak accident last Easter)

Politics

One of the biggest debates between the current ruling party and the opposition is the way that technical training should be improved!

The possible next leader’s wife sold her business basically because it might be inappropriate for her to receive any kind of government grant while her husband is the leader. (In SA the equivalent wife would probably be expanding her business multi-nationally by way of interest-free loans granted on the promise of her hubby getting the job)

Other

There are a lot of Asians and Indians in Sydney – I don’t have any negative comment on that – it’s just obvious, so I mention it.

I heard that drugs are a problem - but I did not see any hint of it during my trip. What I did see though was amazing availability of alcohol.

Bottom Line

The bottom line is that moving to Sydney will give you and your family a well defined, safe future – but if you want to maintain the same standard of living as you had in South Africa, you will have to earn much more than what you earn in SA. So the choice is between a simple, safe life and a more luxurious, but also more perilous one.

I guess it depends on how risky you deem the future to be – if you are optimistic and haven’t been touched by crime or the new discriminatory laws, you will probably stay (like I will) – otherwise, just remember that after losing a family member and having a divorce, emigrating is the most stressful thing you can do – so make sure you have 100% buy-in from everyone involved, or you could end up wrecking the future you are trying to save…

There is no right or wrong decision - it's your choice and you make it with the specific set of information and motivating factors that surround you at the time.

[Mara]

Hi Constant

An interesting report back on your findings!

With regard to the super, it is only included in a package if the employer quotes it that way, as it is payable by the employer and not the employee. So if you are made a job offer on a 457, make sure to check whether your super is included in the offer made to you or whether it is additional. 9% can make quite a difference to the $ in your hand.

With regard to fresh produce, meat, etc. I am sure it will be the same in Sydney as it is here in Melbourne, take care where you buy - I can buy fillet steak from the supermarket at around $26-00 per kilo, but I can also buy it for $16-00 from the market. I can buy rumpsteak for $16-20 from the supermarket but from my wholesale butcher I buy it in bulk for around $9 per kilo and it is vacuum packed and very tender. I tend to find that if you buy your vegetables from a green grocer that they are often cheaper than from the supermarkets. If you have market gardens close to where you live, they are the best place to buy. Then you also need to realise that you can get most vegetables all year round, however, if they are not in season in Australia at that time, you will definitely be paying a premium for them. As far as biltong is concerned, you will definitely find it cheaper to make your own, so ensure that you have the recipe!

[Pixi]

Thnx Constant - I liked the different angle you used .

[Jongman]

Hi Constant

I do not think that is fair to compare prices to SA prices.

The reason I say that is that you do not get paid in Rand here in Aus., you get paid in dollars. In Aus if you get paid $20 per hour, thats about R120 in SA. But the value of $20 is a lot more than R120. You say that its R12 – R30 rand for bread. That is if you were earning Rand! $3 for bread is the norm,

If I were to go to SA for a holiday, and I would take my $, i would score because the dollar is strong at the moment I would get more for my buck, If you were to come to Aus, you would lose because the conversion rate is against you.

I could also flip and say, wow living in SA is incredibly cheap. A bread only costs R0.60 and a Lamb is R10.00 a kilo. But we all know that bread and lamb are well above those prices.

I know that you know all this, but I honestly believe that you are giving Saffers the wrong impression from a financial point of view. There are other factors involved like living costs and tax.

Fred

[Michele R]

Thanks for the cost breakdown Constant!

It gives those of us who haven't done a LSD a better idea of what to expect when we arrive!

Thanks,

Michele

[Johan Swanepoel]

I must agree with Fred on this one. Once you start earning Dollars you multiply by 6 less and less. Although people that landed 2 years ago should multiply by 4.5 and people that land this week should multiply by 6.3 or something. It almost makes the conversion back to rand a bit silly. (Although I still often do it)

The rest is to try and balance Constants equations out a bit.

There are also more things to consider when looking at cost of living. Things like insurance, the cost of public transport is offsetted against the saving in fuel and wear on your car. (not to mention the fact that you do not have to deal with the stress of traffic).

The Tax rate is more or less the same, but as a normal salary type you can claim a lot more from tax to lower your tax rate. You can claim back for certain investments, dependents ect.(see www.ato.gov.au)

Renting is a tad expensive, but you have to wonder how much places are in the more afluent areas in South Africa. The places with all the safe and easy to use parks, close to public transport and shops. The closest thing to that in SA is probably golf estates and we could not have afforded that in SA.

Buying a house. Yes the prices are more expensive (you get what you pay for see previous paragraph). The interest rate in Australia is a tad lower. Even with that it would be a bit more expensive here than in SA.

Like you said cars are cheaper here than in SA, especially Ford, Holden, Toyota ect are cheaper. Basically Japenese, Korean, Australian and American cars.

Buying things in Aus is a bit strange, you can either pay through your nose or get an amazing bargain. Most of the things you would want to buy it is probably better to wait for a sale. We bough a brand new TV from K-Mart that normally goes for $200 at $70. We buy our Rump steak at $6/Kg for the whole rump (it weighs about 5Kg).

Things like DVD's are dirt cheap on special you pay anything from $8-$12 new releases are about $30.

Money wise there are also other things to consider, like the unemployment rates. Economic outlooks. Strength of the currencies. Reappropriation of your land ect.

Anyway just my 2 cents worth or is that 12.6 cents?

Regards

Johan Swanepoel

[Pippa]

Dear Constant,

Many thanks for the post - nice to see things from another perspective.

I guess it depends on how risky you deem the future to be – if you are optimistic and haven’t been touched by crime or the new discriminatory laws, you will probably stay (like I will) – otherwise, just remember that after losing a family member and having a divorce, emigrating is the most stressful thing you can do – so make sure you have 100% buy-in from everyone involved, or you could end up wrecking the future you are trying to save…

I take it that you will not leave South Africa for Australia...(?)

Good luck with everything and thanks again for your post!

Bye, Pippa! X

PS. Johan Swanepoel also loved your response and totally agree with you !

[Nilo]

Hello ya all

I guess Constant opened the can of worms?!

I have to agree with Fred, Johan and Pippa. It is not expensive once you live here and earn $. THe problem is that most of us bring money in from SA and that is why it all seems exagerated.

My husband did this calculation and it puts things in a much better perspective.

Lets say you earned R15 000 per month in SA

in Australia you earn $ 5 000 per month

That is 1/3 of your SA salary, now just multiply the prices by 3.

Bread $2 = R6

Milk 3L $3 = R9

Coke 2L $2 = R6

Rump $6 = R18

Petrol $1-50 = R4-50

I'm sure you get my drift. In the end you'll have a much clearer picture of the price comparison.

BUT the total absence of FEAR is priceless!

The freedom to use public transport is priceless!

The luxury of sitting in beautifully maintained parks with out being over crowded is priceless!

Driving on the highway where everybody keeps to the speedlimit is priceless!

And I can go on for a very long time.

Lovies

Nilo

[Pixi]

Would it be expensive if you earn the same in OZ as in SA? As in you can earn say 50 000 in Oz but 300 000 in SA or what ever amounts you want to use? The way I see it, it will take some people a couple of years to earn the equivalent of what they are earning currently in SA - so obviously they are worse of. For people who earn more in OZ than in SA, they will be beter of but if its going to be more or less the same, what would your opinion be? On Nilo husbands model, suppose the R15,000 moves to 3,000 dollar?

Edited June 13, 2007 by Pixi

[Johan Swanepoel]

Well Pixi I am not sure a straight comparison like that would make to much sense.

You would rather need to look at the average salary for an undustry and then make the comparison based on the factor difference.

For example if the average nurse in SA earns R100 000 p/j and the average salary for a nurse in Oz is $50 000 p/j then that would be a better way to compare. (You would of course want to convert it to net salary ect)

Also indexes like GDP with PPP gives you a slightly better idea (x3) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita), although the problem with that is that it takes averages and South Africa has a big population of pour people. It messes up the average a bit.

As Nilo suggested you really need to look at things as a percentage of your spendable income. Therefore it might differ depending on the industry that you are in.

Sorry if this seems like drivel.

Regards

Johan

[MannyT]

I am inclined to agree with, Fred, Johan and Pippa regarding simplistic exchange rate based price comparisons. I think that comparisons of this nature are a bit of a nonsense.

It is a bit like Aussies using the hourly wage rate of say a cleaner in Oz (say $15 to $18 an hour .To this you can add penalty rates for work after 5:30pm or week end work (1.5 and 2.5 times respectively) and comparing that to what a cleaner earns in RSA. Say at $18 an hour x 38 hours (per week) x 52 = $35 568. In addition the employer will contribute 9% of your earnings into a Superannuation fund(Pension fund).

Using an approximate exchange rate of 1$=R6 the cleaner in Oz will be earning $35 568 x 6 = R213 408(Plus Superannuation). Free Medicare, Child allowances......... etc.

Notwithstanding skewered price comparisons of this nature Aussies (including ex Sourh Africans) generally enjoy a very high standard of living by first world standards.

Moving countries (like moving jobs) is a very personal matter but what I do'nt see are "queues' of Aussies trying to get into the RSA. I rest my case.

Regards

Manny

Ps.Happy earn Aussie dollars and pay in dollars

[Nilo]

Hi Manny and all

I do agree with you all. The whole problem with earning SA Rand's are that it's not worth much, (don't shoot me, sorry). At least now we are earning money that is worth something out there in the wide world. Look how well the A$ is doing against the US$!!!

I also agree that we are realy not battling at all. It takes a bit to get settled but after a week or two you are on your feet and earning well.

We are truly blessed

Nilo

[Riekie]

Aus is 'n duur vakansie bestemming, want mens betaal met Rande wat net 17c werd is. As mens hier bly en A$ verdien, is die lewenskoste min of meer dieselfde tot goedkoper as in RSA (met die uitsondering van eiendom) & die gehalte van lewe 10 keer beter! Op die ou einde is dit 'n geval van wat vir elkeen belangrik is in die lewe en nie alles kan in geld gemeet word nie...

Om te emigreer of nie is 'n baie persoonlike keuse en vir elkeen is die motivering om te ry of te bly iets anders en persoonliks. Alles is nie altyd swart of wit nie. Ek respekteer enige iemand wat kies om te bly want ek weet hoe moeilik dit is om so 'n lewensveranderende keuse te maak. Vir baie mense is die keuse om te bly selfs moeiliker as wat die keuse sou wees om te gaan.

Een ding wat mens net moet onthou (en dit is nie in antwoord op enige van die "posts" hierbo nie - ek dink net dit is relevant om te noem): vir elke ZAR wat iemand in RSA verdien, kon hy A$6 in Aus verdien het. (Die jaar voor Zim se onafhanklikheid was die Zim doller meer werd as die Amerikaanse doller - nou kan die Zim doller nie eers 'n vyftigste van 'n Amerikaanse sent koop nie!! Dit in 27 jaar..... Het iemand ooit gedink dit sou gebeur?)

Constant: Dankie vir jou eerlike terugvoer. Dit was nou regtig 'n onpartydige weergawe van die feite. Ek is bly julle het julle kuier in Aus geniet, en dit was lekker om julle te ontmoet! Sterkte vir die pad vorentoe - ek glo alles in die lewe werk uit soos dit moet, ook vir julle!!

[Mara]

Hi Riekie

When you quoted the Zim Dollar before independance, it made me think back to 1982 - we were on the verge of moving to the USA and then you could get US$1-42 for every South African Rand...now look at the exchange rate!

[Johan Swanepoel]

Even getting for most of us on the forum now we would just like to get the R4 per Ausie Dollar of a couple of years back. That would be nice.

If you guys really want something to multiply with here is a strange benchmark.

It is called the Big Mac Index. This index does what the more complex indexes (GDP with PPP) does in a much simpler way. They use the price of a Big Mac to determine the relative buying power of a currency and try to predict what the exchange rate should be.

According to this a safer multiplier to go from Ausie Dollars to Rands (if I understand it correctly) is about 4.5, this should give a fairer reflection of what things really cost in Aus compared to South Africa based on the relative price of a Big Mac.

Here is a link to the Index.

Big Mac Index

Regards

Johan Swanepoel

[Guest colton]

I think it is great that Constant did the LSD and then decided for herself whether the move was right for them or not. We did the same thing a couple of years back and also decided to rather stay where we were. We were very happy with our decision and never regretted a single day. We do now live here in Australia and haven't regretted a single day of that either. Timing is everything and a LSD is very important in my opinion as most of us think Australia is fantastic, but for some it isn't so great. Who knows in a couple of years or so Constant, like us, may re look at the whole thing and decide otherwise or go somewhere else.

On the forum we get very defensive about Australia as we all love it here but we have to let others decide for themselves, it doesn't make anyone right or wrong.

From a very financially stable family who have a secure old age to look forward to,

Colton

Edited June 14, 2007 by colton

[Johan Swanepoel]

Agreed Colton you are perfectly correct.

It is a personal decision and depending on different stages in your life the decision might be different.

But I also think the facts was a tad skewed.

Regards

Johan

[Constant]

Hi all!

The reason I worked everything back to Rand was very simple - my proposed Aus salary was very close to my Rand salary - so whether I earn in Rand, or earn in Au$ - if a bread is the equivalent of R20 - it still makes a R20 (or whatever in Au$) difference to what's in my pocket.

I quoted "Pick-n-Pay" prices - I can also get things cheaper here if I shop around - I just wanted to get a feel for buying from a basically equivalent shop.

I am not saying Aus is bad - if you think that you never passed dictation. All I am saying is that unless you earn more in the equivalent of Rand in Aus than what you do in SA, you will have to tighten your belt a bit - at least to start off with.

[Pixi]

Thnx Constant - That's why I liked your post - because I'm going to be one of those who is probably going to be earning slightly less. Its currently easier for me to make R60 than what it would be to earn 10 dollars. But I'm going to bite the bullet for mental health, safety and security. But keep well and don't totally disappear from the forum!

[Wodwik]

How about this for a comparison method:

Say an 'office worker' earns R10 000/m in SA

She could afford 2 000 loaves of bread a month.(R5ea)

At R50/kg she could buy 200kg of meat per month.

Or at R7/litre she could buy 1400 litres of petrol

She might like to drown her sorrows in 125 cases of SAB's finest

It would take her 80 months to pay of a house of R800k

Or 20 months to pay off her R200k mom's taxi

The same person in Oz might earn $5 000 /m

She could buy 2 500 loaves of bread

Or at $10 could pig out on 500kg of rump

At $1.50 she could afford 3 300 litres of fuel

Or prefer to drink 166 cases of Crown lager.

Or maybe pay off her $500k house in 100 months

Or her $25k car in just 5 months.

These are guesstimates, but it does show that some essentials are cheaper, especially petrol but not housing.