Commitment phobia

[jiggy]

Hi everyone,

 

I have a read through quite a few posts and there are so many that deal with real hardships that this post may seem to be a "first world problem" in comparison but I would appreciate any comments.

 

My family and I are very fortunate in that we have already been granted a 189 visa. However, our trip to Oz to activate the visa was a nightmare in that we had a terrible flight over with our 6 month old, (who was then VERY jetlagged and unsettled for the trip) and we visited too many places in to short a time (3 states in 10 days) without getting a chance to really have a look around any one place. It may have been due to the stressful circumstances, but we both very underwhelmed by Oz, so much so that we are still not in agreement about if we will actually end up in Oz. We would need to enter by December 2018 so the clock is ticking...

 

We lived in England for close on 10 years, and are now back in SA due so that I can make the most of a current opportunity and to give us some time in the sun with our 2 toddlers, and to be near to the grandparents for at least a few years.

 

To those of you who have lived in the UK and Oz - how similar are the experiences (if you exclude the weather)? We had a good, comfortable life in the UK, but so many people living on top of each other on every street, and then having the terrible weather wore us down big time! Our worry is that Oz will be the same as the UK, just with better weather! My wife and I both found the UK to be a "live to work" attitude, whereas we are looking for the exact opposite.

 

We are now in Cape Town and loving the bubble that it clearly is. To those who have lived in CT and Oz - How does your life in Oz compare to the life you had in CT? This is more a quality of life thing - outdoors, beach, relaxed and plenty to do with the kids activity wise. Obviously not having help readily at hand makes a difference but we are used to that after starting a family and doing it all ourselves in the UK.

 

The biggest thing is convincing my wife that the upheaval and cost WILL be worthwhile.

 

Our move would be to Sydney.

 

Thanks in advance for any comments.

 

[RedPanda]

I strongly advise that you go read the posts made by @AFreshStart. He moved from CT to Sydney, with a wife (who works) and young kid(s?). His opinion is quite biased in favour of Sydney life, but I think that is probably what you need at this stage.  

We took a leisurely stroll through the Eastern states in January 2014, and when we compare what we saw then with what we saw of the UK on other trips I can tell you that people are NOT that crowded. I have also found that the Aussies in general are very nature conservation minded people who like to spend time in it, so bush walking, cycling, strolling along the beach, surfing...they are also very active, which they can do because the environment is safe. We found Sydney to give off a 'rat-race' vibe, but there are several forumites who will tell you that you just need to go to the right area, and it's relaxed and friendly.

I think it is very likely that your trip put you off Australia, as you mentioned you were stressed and had a young baby. So I think you probably experienced it at the worst.


Go on...go stalk AFreshStart...  

[Shaugn]

On a light note, I stay in Adelaide. It's got a million odd people here in a large area. Some times it feels like the Truman show - they roll out people to make it like there's actually someone here! Weather wise, it's Cape Town - same Mediterranean climate, blue gums, veld that looks the same, and vineyards.

It's a modern city, spread out residential areas, and twenty minutes to everywhere.

If you can get work here, it's fantastic. I can't speak for the rest of the country, but there seem to be more coffee shops, bistros and pubs here than I've ever seen in my life, and they are busy. If you like health food and are keen on physical activity, there's not a safer place to be and people are physically active.

I'm sure other members will have their own stories to tell, and I'm sure that Adelaide is not unique (but I am a tad biased )

[zamunda]

Initially our plan was to settle in Melbourne. Simply because my wife's family is quite well settled there. Then a year before we were to have moved over, during a visit to see the family, we decided to see what Adelaide was about. Immediately fell in love with the life style. As @Shaugn said everything is so accessible without having to spend time stuck in traffic. Certainly is a very safe place. Love the cafe culture. In fact cafe's, coffee shops, bistros greatly out number fast food chains. It is also "The Festival State" for sure. There is always something happening. Far too many than one can keep up. 

 

Being a much smaller place compared to Sydney and Melbourne, work and business opportunities are far less. But the trade off is the life style. Best decision we made. The family was not very happy, but who cares

[AFreshStart]

@jiggy,

 

We moved from CPT, and have spent much time London over 20-years with 90% of my family living there, including my brother who was there for over 15-years before relocating here to Sydney.

 

I feel you've made a sweeping generalization about the UK here, "but so many people living on top of each other on every street". Even if you bring this down to England there are still MANY places you can be where you'll not see a single neighbour, you might be talking about London and surrounds, but not England.

 

I share this because you need to take the same approach to Sydney and then New South Wales. Sydney has over 600 suburbs, you can drive an hour each way from the CBD and STILL be in Sydney. The further you go out, the cheaper is gets and the more space you get for your money. Further still are towns outside of Sydney, but still in NSW, an hour and half away you can be on 100 acres and not see any of your neighbours.

 

It's all what you're willing to live with, or without. We choose to live in the City in a 2-bedroom apartment, less than 4kms from the CBD with our two kids. I can walk into the CBD in under 30mins. We LOVE our new lifestyle, being closer to the action makes it SO easy for us, because it's what we've defined as a priority for us. I'm a 5-minute cycle from Central station and take the train to work in under 30mins, my wife catches a bus to work in 10-15mins and they pass every 10+ minutes, right outside our front door.

 

We are surrounded by amazing parks, public spaces, pools and have FREE outdoor events every weekend. Last weekend my son and I went into the City to watch a few FREE concerts, the lighting of the Christmas Lights in Martin Place and got front row seats for the Fireworks in Hyde Park.

 

We don't feel it's a Rat Race at all, my wife and I both have full-time jobs but have defined our lifestyle around our lives and kids. My wife works 4-days a weeks, but splits it over 5, so she can fetch the kids. I get one day off a week and work alternate weekends, but when I work the late and am able to spend time with my kids, like yesterday morning when we had swimming in Prince Alfred Park and Soccer. We've built our careers around our lives, not the other way around.

 

On the flip side, the previous week I was working out in Marsden Park and there is no way I could live that, against traffic I was doing 40-mins at best and back into the City took up to an hour and a half. While you get space out there, and the Hills District that many forumites live in, I'd just be trading too much of my life for that extra space and can see how it could become a "Rat Race", doing up to 2-3 hours in traffic everyday, $80 in weekly tolls, petrol costs, mostly likely needing not 1 but 2 cars etc, dealing with a house, the maintenance, filling it with things we don't need etc. We moved to get away from that, having owned a house in Claremont in CPT.

 

It's about defining your priorities and then working towards making those happen.

 

Cheers

 

Matt

 

[rozellem]

On 12/3/2016 at 5:07 PM, jiggy said:

 

 

To those of you who have lived in the UK and Oz - how similar are the experiences (if you exclude the weather)? We had a good, comfortable life in the UK, but so many people living on top of each other on every street, and then having the terrible weather wore us down big time! Our worry is that Oz will be the same as the UK, just with better weather! My wife and I both found the UK to be a "live to work" attitude, whereas we are looking for the exact opposite.

 

We are now in Cape Town and loving the bubble that it clearly is. To those who have lived in CT and Oz - How does your life in Oz compare to the life you had in CT? This is more a quality of life thing - outdoors, beach, relaxed and plenty to do with the kids activity wise. Obviously not having help readily at hand makes a difference but we are used to that after starting a family and doing it all ourselves in the UK.

 

The biggest thing is convincing my wife that the upheaval and cost WILL be worthwhile.

 

 

Hi Jiggy,  I am from Somerset West, studied in Cape Town CBD, then worked in Stellenbosch.  My husband is from Simonstown, studied Stellenbosch, worked in Cape Town CBD and lived in Gardens.  We lived in London for 11 years before moving to Sydney, 8 years ago.   We absolutely love it here.  I could not even see myself having kids when we lived in London, but Sydney makes you feel positive about the world.  Listen, you can be unhappy anywhere, no place is exempt from that.  You can willingly decided to join the rat race anywhere and keep up with the Joneses, but we have never done and never felt the pressure to do so.  We have found people here to be very live and let live, to let you decide for yourself how you are going to do things.  There is definitely not a live to work pressure in any of the Sydney communities we have lived, unless again its in YOUR personality, but then you cant blame the place and you will do that even if you lived in Hicksville. In London we worked ourselves silly and would then jump on a plane and get the hell out of there a few times a year.  Now we are happy to spend a holiday pottering around the house and in the pool, because we want to.  We can so easily jump on our bikes and cycle to lovely places around us, or take a drive out for the day.  We are not going away this Christmas holidays and for the first time we will also not have visitors.  We are looking forward to lots of swimming, braais/potjiekos with the neighbours (DIY half drum with real wood), street parties, tending our veg garden, the kids (5&6) riding around the street in their home made go cart and playing with the 12 kids in the street.  Literally, we dont lock the doors and the kids roam in and out of each others houses.   None of them sit around on devices and in front of TV's, they build forts, work with (entry level) power tools and create.  My kids dont have any iPads or devices, but rather a treasured hammer and spade each.  We do a lot of camping too.  My husband volunteer as a lifesaver and we are 15mins from the beach.  We have surrounded ourselves with a support structure of neighbours and friends we can use to help were I think traditionally family would have come in.  But, in Sydney, a world city, there are SO many people from all over the world in the same boat, we help each other.  Australia is also such a huge country, that if your neighbour is originally from Perth, although her mum is in the same country, she might as well not be.  So we help each other when we can.  I also took the issue of sleep training my kids serious when they were little, so that we could go out at 7pm at night and have someone sit at my house while they kids slept.   I need that occasionally for my own sanity and relationships.  I am rambling, but I want you to understand that in Sydney, you will be the author of your own life.  You will be able to decided how full on or not you are going to live your life, it ultimately comes down to you.

 

 Lastly, I visit RSA often enough to see the huge decline in lifestyle, services and the general disregard of human life.  In the last 6 weeks, my parents in Somerset West, had two sets of their friends tied up and badly beaten in home invasions. I am talking about elderly couples in their 70's, beaten while being screamed at  "Where's the money and the gold!".   Even last week, my parents had people jump their multiple fence structures twice, to steal patio furniture and then lastly 3 outside taps.  Kicked the border collie so bad that he was injured. The place makes me very nervous, its like waiting your turn be picked off.  I will visit RSA till my parents pass away, but then I dont see the point, my sisters can come visit me here or we could meet somewhere else.  And all the while Australia is tightening their visa laws.  Dont let this chance slip between your fingers.  

 

News just in: My sisters house was burgled in a very secure, posh area of Somerset West on Sat night. They passed gates/fences, a labrador, lazers, home alarm system and perspex burglar bars. Luckily nobody was home, but this gave them time to strip some rooms to to bone. Apparently tearing a built in wardrobe right off the wall to get to a safe, that they ultimate couldnt open. Everybody is rattled, to say the least. Especially with my nephew going to Stellenbosch Uni next year, his mum and sister will live there alone.

Edited December 4, 2016 by rozellem

[Riekie]

Hi Jiggy,

 

I haven’t lived in London or in Cape Town, but I’ve been to both – just like you’ve been to Australia.  I don’t think being somewhere would qualify anyone to have a balanced view, as you’d base your opinion on a very limiting experience, so I can’t really give you any fair perspective on either London or Cape Town. However, I have lived in Sydney for 12 years of which 11 years in suburbia and the last 12 months in the city and I can certainly provide you with an opinion about Australia as I’ve done many road trips to many parts of Australia, including to the heart of the outback.  People don’t live on top of each other in Australia.  Yes, like any large city in the world – including London and Cape Town – you’ll find areas of high density living where many people live in apartments (which may look deceivingly tiny from the outside, but you’d be surprised about what’s behind those doors).  Many (I’d even say most) apartment buildings in the city have their own gyms, indoor pools, rooftop gardens, BBQ areas etc. and they’re all within very short walking distance from a park or open recreational space. 

 

A year ago we’ve downsized from a 4 bedroom house with a garden in suburbia and we’re currently living in a 2 bedroom unit in the city with gorgeous views over Iron Cove bay and a huge park with children’s playground right outside our balcony.  I’m so close to having my own garden, the leaves of the palm tree curls onto my balcony! We have free access to a gym, indoor pool & outdoor pool, but even without that, we’re surrounded by public pools, parks and beautiful beaches!  We’re so close to everything in the city: shows, concerts, restaurants, pubs, shopping, cycle paths, and an endless supply of free events! I’ve probably cooked about 10 meals in the last year as we’re literally a few steps from so many food options, from breakfast to dinner (and I don’t mean McDonalds or KFC!)  We just take a stroll up the street for breakfast with a view or lunch at an artsy café with live jazz or dinner at a pub with a fireplace and an awesome vibe. Sometimes we just grab some fresh olives, pate, cold meats, breads, cheese and fruit from the organic market half a street away and enjoy it with a glass of wine overlooking the bay and enjoying the sunset from our balcony. We’re SO spoilt and you’d never say we’re living in the heart of one of the biggest cities in the world!

 

After living in suburbia for many years, we absolutely LOVE being in the city and we certainly don’t feel claustrophobic at all. (Of course, suburbia has its own benefits and we were very happy there too!) Whether you live in suburbia or in the city, you’ll definitely experience quality of life in Australia.  I felt more “boxed in” stressed out, paranoid and claustrophobic in my nice big home with the pool, the lapa and the massive backyard in South Africa than I’ll ever feel in my 2 bedroom unit in Sydney!

[Stepchook]

We lived in the UK for two years, from '98 to '00. At the time, our daughter was five months old. I was offered an IT job, earning £50 an hour, by someone I met while diving in the Maldives.

 

For me, it was great for my career and our bank account. For my wife, it was tantamount to a prison sentence and almost destroyed our marriage.

 

Fast forward to today, and we're Australian citizens, having lived her for coming on seven years.

 

It's probably very subjective, but there is simply no comparison. Would I recommend living in the UK? Nope. In fact, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. Especially these days. Would I recommend living in Australia? Hell yeah! No better place on earth to raise children.

 

But that's my 0.02. YMMV.

[DXB2OZ]

I have lived in Cape Town, England, Scotland, Bahrain, Dubai and Melbourne. There were things to love in all of these, but I do feel like Melbourne is my favourite.

 

We do not have home help - can't really afford it. Probably have a smaller house than we would have in SA, which is good because we have to clean it and heat it. What we have here is freedom. I have the freedom from having strangers in my home, under my feet. I have the freedom to take the train into the city centre, so I don't have to battle the commute. And I can catch that train, late at night, way after dark without a problem. I have the freedom to express my opinion without being called a racist, a communist, anti white, anti black, anti Christian, anti Muslim, whoever objects to me opening my mouth. I have the freedom to work without worrying about affirmative action and the length of my shelf life.

 

This is before we talk abut the freedom of the kids. They have the freedom to ride their bikes to school. As teenagers, they have the freedom to use buses and trains to get around, exploring the city centre on their own without fear. They have the freedom to plan a future without worrying if their degree will be worth anything in a few years time or without worrying too much about the rising cost of university fees. 

 

We have the freedom to enjoy normality and it is marvellous.

 

While I loved Scotland, I found England quite difficult in terms of the class divide. We probably would have settled in time, but I would have definitely moved further North. Loved Dubai, but no permanent options.

 

my suggestion, if you come on another trip, or if you make the move, is to take the flight as it comes. You will be all over the place anyway so don't stress. Kids pick up on your stress. Allow yourself a few days to recover the jet lag, or plan small short excursions and work with afternoon naps until you find your rhythm. 

 

We are planning a trip trip to New Zealand after Christmas, my daughter is going to Uluru on a school camp in March and I am hoping to get to Tasmania and Northern Territory for work soon. This move is not for everyone, but for us we are very happy with our decision.

 

best of luck to you and your family.

[Shellfish]

I have lived in the UK and Melbourne, my two cents worth - and agree with what most have said - Australia is better. You just need to see the number of English/Scots/Welshmen that live in Australia..

Having said this - Australia is expensive so, if like the UK, you want to live close to public transport and the city (esp in Melbourne and Sydney) then it tends to be crowded or you need to have a lot of money but the lifestyle in general, is a lot better IMO.

[jiggy]

Thank you everyone for taking the time to respond. Apologies for the delay but I have been away for work, and then family holidays.

 

This is just what I was looking for! Things are what we make of them but its good to hear all of the positives.

 

Quick question.. It seems that work is there for those that are prepared to look and to work, so in the time between my wife and I arriving and finding work in our preferred fields, how difficult would it be to find short term jobs to support our family of four?

 

Thanks again.

 

Merry Xmas!

[Riekie]

If you're willing to do any work, you'll find it.  It may not pay as much as you'd get in your field of work, but it is something to help pay the bills. Just walking through our local shopping mall, I see posters in shop windows for staff wanted.