RenVilo Posted January 9, 2016 Report Share Posted January 9, 2016 Hi everyone, End of last year I was asked if I would like to relocate from South Africa to Melbourne. I said yes depending on the package etc. I got an offer this week and its $6 000 before tax (I think it does exclude the superannuation that has to be paid by the employer) so that is 72k per year but I worked out a budget and this is what I got: Banking Fees 0 Cellphone 60 Car Installment 550 Car Insurance 150 Home Insurance 150 Life Insurance 120 Petrol 250 Medical Aid 400 Second Car 250 Petrol 50 Groceries 1400 Bread and Milk 400 Rental 2000 Gas 100 Electricity 100 Water + Trash 80 Kid School 700 Telephone and ADSL 120 Spending 1000 General Debt from SA 1000 So the above budget is basically just what our current lifestyle in SA will cost us in Aus. Works out to almost 9k. We will make some cuts initially and not fuzzed about that but its still works out to about 6.5k pm I expected an initial offer of 100k. So the offer I got was way less and I instantly said I will not be interested. They keep on nagging I should first go over and see for myself but I don't even want to consider it coz the 6k works out to 4k. Sure the wife is currently working but initially she will not and ideally we would like to rather have her do her own thing. So money from her side should be more seen as spending. So am I wrong to say that the offer of 6k before tax is a bit low. I'm doing sales/consulting and think I should really be in a bit of a higher bracket especially if previous employees has been offered more as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ottg Posted January 9, 2016 Report Share Posted January 9, 2016 The salary/benefits offered is below national average (see my comments on stats below) First find out the real reason why they want you to relocate? This can increase your bargaining power. - Business expansion, business exit plan, Joint Venture, new business? - Do they plan to move the entire office their? - Can you service your current customers base from Aus? * How well is the current Melbourne office doing? Do they channel work from Aus to RSA or the otherway around? Pros: Relocation costs paid Foot in the door – specially under this current economic conditions Opportunity to negotiate and make a deal: - Show salary comparison studies available - The link below provides an average weekly income for Melbourne. Select a salary range within say 30km ; 20km; 10km from your offices in Melbourne. Use that to motivate an remuneration increase! - Review income within 3 months (why?) WITH option to move back to RSA all expenses paid by employer. - Business partnership/ directorship availability * Employer pays your accommodation, guaranteed sponsorship for citizenship (if needed) etc My take on average salaries (mentioned this elsewhere) - average salary means exactly that; 50% earns more and 50% earns less and has very little meaning except for the person using it for a benchmark. Better to understand the story behind the stats; median, spread around the mean, histograms, quartiles etc. Don't know where to find better data but this can help...but it also depends on job title, skills, if you employed, work for yourself i.e contractor or self-employed which tip the scale much higher Assume you are a software developer: http://www.payscale.com/research/AU/Job=Software_Developer/Salary More interesting data: http://www.rba.gov.au/publications/bulletin/2015/jun/2.html http://www.tradingeconomics.com/australia/wages Average weekly income per area in Melbourne http://house.ksou.cn/suburbtop.php?sta=Vic&cat=Median+household+income&name=Weekly+income Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenVilo Posted January 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 9, 2016 Hi ottg, thanks for the reply. I had a look at this: http://au.hudson.com/portals/au/documents/Salary%20Guides/SalaryTables2015-Aus-ICT.pdf We have an office in Melbourne but clients all over Aus as well. I know there was 2 senior guys who was both offered jobs so they both left and they did about 80% of the work. So I'll be working non stop in order to deliver. My job mostly entails Consulting and Sales for a Software company. So I'll go to clients and do the business analysis for what they need, go to the office and scope it up. Most likely I'll ship the scope to our India office for development and once I get it back I'll test and deliver. Then the other side is to try and push our product to new clients and also enhancements to current clients. So my job title is a bit messy lol. I'm between sales and consultant but I did check and both has about an avg of 80k. So perhaps not that bad of an offer but I don't feel its good enough. Sure I don't like SA but we have a comfortable life here and packing everything up just to go and struggle in a new place, not sure if that's what I want. I'm trying to force them to give me a better salary with a commission structure but will see what happens. According to your map the closes is Albert Park/ Middle Park and seems to be $2100 a week. Is this before or after tax? I asked for a salary of $9500 before tax which is around $6500 after tax I believe. That's $2500 more in a month to survive on. More and more people tell me to take it but I just don't feel comfortable with a 4k salary. That's the same as a senior Desktop Support for instance which is a lot less work and a lot easier in most instances. Or am I just being greedy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ottg Posted January 10, 2016 Report Share Posted January 10, 2016 2 hours ago, RenVilo said: I know there was 2 senior guys who was both offered jobs so they both left and they did about 80% of the work. I assume you are junior to them and therefore your salary should reflect that. Is your asking of $95k below their's? The salary tables you use seems pretty good but then check for the state & area using seek.com to refine. 2 hours ago, RenVilo said: So my job title is a bit messy It sound much like Software Development Accounts Manager but others on the forum can chip in here. If that is the case the offering seems in line. But better - do a checkup on your colleagues on Linkedin and what titles they now go under and repeat the above. Lastly reduce your rental by moving to the outskirts. 2 hours ago, RenVilo said: Or am I just being greedy. No, you only get one change to negotiate your offering! But keep in mind all the pros I mentioned. Once you know the local Aus industry and you are good in what you are doing (bringing profitable business into the company) you may be head hunted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenVilo Posted January 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2016 Currently i manage the Western Cape as Account Manager and BA so i will not say iam jnr. I am on a senior level but just not with the company as long as the 2 people who left. I know the 1 guy got 100k and 3 years ago another guy started with 100k. We had a change in ceo and he is in India so I think he wants someone cheap but I don'tlike the idea much. Is it possible to get a PR visa from the start? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ottg Posted January 10, 2016 Report Share Posted January 10, 2016 1 hour ago, RenVilo said: Is it possible to get a PR visa from the start? The salary you asking seems inline. Wrt PR - you need to do some homework to see if you legible : https://www.border.gov.au/Trav/Visa-1/189- Search on the forum for pointers on how to increase your points if you need too. Rather do that while you here on a 457 and earning $$ - not too sure about the implications Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFreshStart Posted January 10, 2016 Report Share Posted January 10, 2016 (edited) RenVilo, If you can't define your title and role and are saying that others in similar roles are getting $80k, how /what do/makes you think you 'deserve' a $100k+ salary? Can you get PR from the start? Yes, if you qualify for a skilled work visa, but you'd need to know if your job/title are on the SOL. My wife's company paid for her VISA, our relocation costs, air tickets and settlement allowance, PR from day one, pro-rated over 2-years. If she leaves within 2-years we pay back their outlay, pro-rata, after 2-years she is free to move on if she chooses and she has PR, and it's benefits from day one. About your 'good life' in the Western Cape. We also had a good life, 2-cars, paid for cash, a house in the Southern Suburbs with a mortgage, but otherwise debt free. We could eat out at a restaurant any night of the week etc. But it means nothing if you don't have quality of life. We had a terrible work life balance, long hours, more month than money some months and it was getting harder. We didn't live in fear, but our motivations were driven by fear, even if subconsciously. We had 24-hour armed response, a buzzer with 6 buttons, 5 of which we needed to enter our home, had countless alarm activations and 2 attempted break-ins while in our home. Schooling was also getting more and more expensive. Inflation continues to go through the roof, unemployment is at an all time high and the rand has tanked against major global currencies. If you moved to Australia in 1970-1980 with R1million you'd have had a $1million, if you moved today what would you have? Over the past 10-years has the Rand been on an upward trend? Are investors flocking to SA pouring money into the economy? Or has the currency been downgraded to almost junk level? Or as #feesmustfall has brought to light, will you have R1-million+ to send your child(ren) to University, or what will it take to save that up or more depending on how old they are? These are realities all South Africand are facing, whether they choose to or not. Melbourne has been voted the most liveable city in the WORLD, 3-years running. It has some of the finest education and medical facilities in the world, at State level schooling is FREE, Medicare, also FREE, covering most of your day to day needs, so much so that only 50% of Australians take our private health insurance. What percentage of middle class South African's have medical insurance? How many are willing to gamble their of their families health with state facilities? Tertiary education is state funded though VET-FEE help, the government will help fund your studies allowing you to pick a career path you love based purely on your skills. Locals live long, prosperous lives as Australia is one of the most prosperous nations in the world. I mention all of this because you have been a member of this site for 4-years now, your first post was about a job offer 4-years ago. How many Australian job offers have you had since? Are you confident that you and your skills are so in demand that you could, at any time, walk into a job in Australia? Will your skills remain on the SOL list, are needed and that you would have enough in the way of funds to support yourself in another 4-years IF this opportunity comes again, after turning this one down? I'd hazard a guess 90% of those of us here, esp. in the years post the mid to late 90's are struggling in someway. We aren't trying to replicate our 'good lives' back in South Africa, but we are enjoying the freedom we have to live safely, freely, enjoying great health care, education and clinging to the promise of a 'fair go' for all. We have dreams for our children, their education and are willing to do the hard yards so that they don't have to. So if it were me, given there are hundreds of thousands of South African's who would give life or limb to have the opportunity to move here, I'd be wondering how far I'd be willing to go, or what sacrifice I'd need to make to make that happen, even if that meant living on an $80k salary. If you are THAT good, you have leverage, use it as best you can, but I'd play your hand cautiously. If you do qualify for PR, maybe push that angle, have your company cover the VISA and then schooling and medical costs are instantly reduced because of it, so that $80k goes a bit further. Cheers Matt Edited January 10, 2016 by AFreshStart 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 10, 2016 Report Share Posted January 10, 2016 Nothing much to add after Matt's post. Think he said it all. 100% agree. Take the opportunity while you still can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenVilo Posted January 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2016 Hi Matt, my skill is basically Account Management and Business Analysis in IT. Thing that makes me good is the fact that I am very technical and very logical and I understand our software as it is very unique. Initially when I heard previous employees got 100k i expected that and when i got the offer of 72k i was shocked. Like you said, there are a lot of thing we will like. Education for the kid is the most important for me. The other thing is if we don't go and my kid gets bigger and one day he wants/has to go we are left in SA. That is my biggest issue and the only reason i am so very tempted to go. I have send out an email requesting a better salary but just before i went to bet this morning i did think about doing the PR with a 2 year contract on a pro rata base like you mentioned. If they are willing to do that I will go. But i doubt they will. On the other side, they are from India so perhaps they are just trying their luck with a low offer etc. Not sure and that is the scary part. Playing with fire and not knowing if i am burning myself or what. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFreshStart Posted January 10, 2016 Report Share Posted January 10, 2016 RenVilo, As I shared, if your skills stand up with the best of the them and are on the SOL you shouldn't have a problem getting PR from the start if you are valuable to your company. I do understand your fears, with the company being bought out and now being run from India they might see you as expendable and replaceable as they could replace you with someone from India, it would in some ways want to me to see if I could secure employment elsewhere as a back-up and having PR makes that easier. As you are probably aware a 457 work VISA comes with strings attached. You have no medical support through Medicare and no free education (though it depends where you end up as this differs from state to state), the scariest part of all is that if you are retrenched you have 90-days to find a new employer or are sent packing and chances are if you are sharing the average salary is $80k in your field, with not much local work experience and under the crunch you might be forced to take a job that pays substantial less to be able to stay in Australia. That said there are MANY here who have come on 457 VISA's, often it's their own hope as their skills are not on the SOL or they don't have the required points to apply for a skilled work visa which gives you PR from day one, but you should know the risks. There are companies about that are looking to get staff over her on the cheap, they arrive, promises made go unfulfilled and the staff don't dare more because they fear having to move back and are abused because of it. We've seen it once or twice here on the forum. Now as to your question about your child leaving you behind in South Africa. Yes, that was our fear, as it is for many others, but truthfully what are the odds they'll even be able to leave in 10-20 years time? It wasn't that long ago that South Africans had free travel rights to the UK and Australia, in fact you could even live and work abroad on your GAP year. Those days are long gone and the SA passport gets you into fewer countries these days without a VISA, certainly not with reciprocal work agreements. Imagine your child found out that your DID have the opportunity to make the move, that yes, short term you'd suffer, it would be harder and a struggle for you to make a go of it, but it gave them a chance at a long healthy life, with a world class education and the opportunity to choose a career path, but you DIDN'T take it? They, as a then citizen would have the opportunity to explore the world on an Australian passport, currently Australia has a work abroad agreement with over 14 countries, they could study in Japan, work in London or just spend a year traveling and picking up odd jobs backpacking through Europe. Even if they did move on you'd have been earning dollars and saved to be able to visit them abroad, take vacations and be there, if you stayed in South Africa, how far will those Rands (if that is still the currency in 20 years) go? If you want some sobering perspective you should follow a Facebook page called "New Humans of Australia". These are stories shared by refugees who've arrived here, detained in camps for a year or two, not a penny to their name and worked multiple jobs to be able to send their kids to school and university and who have now become Doctors, Lawyers and Humanitarian Aid workers. Australia has taken in over 800,000 refugees since 1945, it's a land built by immigrants and refugees, a rich multicultural nation that believes in a fair go for all, no matter the odds. May that be an encouragement to seize this opportunity to change the course of your child and their children's children's lives, if not with your current company, to look at what other options you might have moving forward. Cheers Matt 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FairGo Posted January 10, 2016 Report Share Posted January 10, 2016 (edited) We would jump at a opportunity like that. A guaranteed job and 72k income is better than going over with no job prospects and being unemployed for 3-6 months and then only landing a 100k job. My husband is senior management and is excellent at what he does, but is applying for junior positions. If need be, we will supplement our monthly expenses from our savings until he gets promoted or has enough Australian work experience to apply for other senior positions. If using an agent, getting a PR visa can cost you between 120k - 150k. How much you are willing to give up of your SA lifestyle, probably depends on how badly you want to migrate to Australia. We know it will not be the same, but we are willing to downgrade for a better future and for our family to feel safe. That is the ultimate goal for us. Edited January 10, 2016 by TacticJourney 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenVilo Posted January 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2016 @AFreshStart The company I work for has been operating in SA, Aus, UK and are the head office is situated in India. They have existed for several years now so perhaps I didn't clear that up for you. So I'll be going with a company that has been around for years. The 2 guys that left was there for about 7 years before they left recently. I did read you have to be at the same company for 2 years before you can get PR. After a lot of thinking over this weekend I'm going to speak to my local manager tomorrow first and he can discuss it with the CEO. We are looking to get 85k (Not sure how Superannuation works but I think its exl from this 85k) + I want a good commission structure (this is good for them and myself as I'll be a lot more motivate) + I want a PR visa whereby I'll sign a 2 year contract with a pro-rata penalty if I have to leave earlier. Hell I'll even make it 3 years if that will suite them. That is a little above what they offered and think they will perhaps see that I am making an effort from my side as well. Perhaps they just trying their luck and they will be happy with this as they are bargaining on me wanting to go (which I do) but yea. This should be an better offer to them as my initial 115k with a visa 457. So its a win win kinda. I just took inventory and seems we can only get about 100k for our furniture which is so sad to be honest. This does depend how urgent we want to sell it. I'm trying to see if I can qualify for a PR visa. Seems there's no extra points that goes towards a PR visa if you have a job already there. So not sure if I will qualify. Anyone here knows how long it takes? I'll have to do all the tests and checks as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rozellem Posted January 10, 2016 Report Share Posted January 10, 2016 Just thinking out loud/if this was me. I would have a good chat/email with Stephen Dickson (super honest, migration agent on this page). I would ask about my visa options and the quickest way to PR. Either way, I would get ALL the paperwork needed for a PR application at the ready. Obviously not medical or police check, because they expire. I would try and push for a bit more money but, if that doesnt work, I would swollow my pride and still move over, while getting the PR visa application going in earnest. In a way it is great, because you will be earning $ from the get go and obtaining Aus experience and references. Both worth their weight in gold. The salary sounds on the small side, but it is definately doable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenVilo Posted January 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2016 2 hours ago, rozellem said: Just thinking out loud/if this was me. I would have a good chat/email with Stephen Dickson (super honest, migration agent on this page). I would ask about my visa options and the quickest way to PR. Either way, I would get ALL the paperwork needed for a PR application at the ready. Obviously not medical or police check, because they expire. I would try and push for a bit more money but, if that doesnt work, I would swollow my pride and still move over, while getting the PR visa application going in earnest. In a way it is great, because you will be earning $ from the get go and obtaining Aus experience and references. Both worth their weight in gold. The salary sounds on the small side, but it is definately doable. Tx to everyone for your opinions. Think we have decided what to do for now. We going to try and get the salary up a bit + good commission structure + PR. I did an assessment but not sure if my Diploma that I did through Unisa will give me the extra 10 points. What is Stephen Dickson's nickname on here. Haven't found a migration agent and would like to use someone that was recommended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rozellem Posted January 10, 2016 Report Share Posted January 10, 2016 Stephen is SD_MOA 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ottg Posted January 10, 2016 Report Share Posted January 10, 2016 5 hours ago, RenVilo said: going to speak to my local manager tomorrow first and he can discuss it with the CEO. May I suggest that you hold off speaking to them until you know exactly how the PR visa and your occupation on the SOL list will work for you. Eg Applying for skilled independent PR visa directly has nothing to do with how long you worked for an Aus company However on a employer sponsored 457 visa and then converting for PR (if your occupation is not on the SOL list) you will need to be 4 year in Aus and sponsored by the employer. BUT if your occupation is on the SOL list, but you came across on a employer sponsored 457 visa you can apply directly for a skilled PR visa. A though: So be careful if your employer knows your intend, why would he want to sponsor you if he thinks you may be leaving soon. For the exact details you need to either ask here, doing own homework and/or speak to a migration agent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RenVilo Posted January 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2016 @ottg Tx for the info. Yes I did send Stephen a mail hoping he will reach out to me soon. On a 457 isn't it 2 years before you can apply for PR and then another 2 years for citizenship? As for a 457 and if my skill is on the SoL, how much is it to apply for PR then? I didn't even know you can do this. I might be able to fall under System Analyst or ICT Business Analyst, but how is this determine. Do I have to write a test or do they look at your work history etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedPanda Posted January 11, 2016 Report Share Posted January 11, 2016 Hi @RenVilo, it might help you to look at this page Australian Government Website, open at the option: Compare visa options. And then you can follow the links and read up a bit. This is the official information, and it should be correct and up-to-date. It could give you some background reference frame from which to talk to a migration agent. But I will admit that the government website can be a bit cumbersome to navigate sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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