Culture of overtime

[DXB2OZ]

Wanted to ask a question re the culture of long hours. I have always been under the impression that Aussies had a fairly healthy life balance (my husband's job definitely has that!), but this new job now has me working 12 hours a day, 7 days a week and I am still falling behind. I'm almost always the first to leave, as I go home to have a family dinner before I am back on the laptop. Due to an emergency I am currently straddling two roles, but am really worried that I will never get on top of this work load.

There are no threats - there are simply things that need to be done and no-one else to do them. I still enjoy the company and the work, but there is so much of it I don't know if I am standing on my head or my feet. Have had food poisoning for the last 6 days and haven't taken off a single one - the only compromise has been to work from home. But today am back in the office to have a chat with my genuinely very nice boss about the balls I have been dropping.

Has anyone else experienced anything like this? I feel like I have let my boss and myself down, but am not quite sure what I could have done differently.

[Sunnyskies]

Really depends on your industry and location.

In my industry people tend to work to the extent necessary to get the job done. Means 3am one day and 6pm the next.

For people who work for me I don't get too fussed if they work from home, provided the job gets done.

[HansaPlease]

I don't think it's "a thing" to work particularly long hours in Aus, but like sunnyskies said, it varies by industry, job, and position.

Generally on a normal day, we arrive on time, leave on time, but there is a definite imbalance with who does how many hours in my company. A lot of my work is project based, so if a project needs to go live and the work isn't done, I sometimes come in on weekends.

The other unspoken overtime is travel. If I stay overnight in a city it's ok, but if it's a day trip to, say, Brisbane then I'll normally get up at 4am, fly at 6, have back to back meetings and arrive home at 10/11pm, only to head to work again early the next morning.

I simply cannot imagine most people in my office putting up with that, there are probably only 5 of us that would do that sort of thing - but then again, they don't get the bonuses and recognition that we do, so you reap what you sow.

I just make sure I hammer my boss come pay rise time!!

7 days a week, 12 hours a day is just not healthy or sustainable though - I think you have a resourcing issue there - I would not put up with that if I were you.

[monsta]

One thing I have noticed here is they tend to reward people based on how hard you work.

All the management theory out there will tell you to work smarter not harder. Especially don't reward people for not working smarter.

But I have found that as companies have cut back on overtime cheques over the years, people still expect some kind of reward.

Edited May 27, 2015 by monsta

[HansaPlease]

One thing I have noticed here is they tend to reward people based on how hard you work.

All the management theory out there will tell you to work smarter not harder. Especially don't reward people for not working smarter.

But I have found that as companies have cut back on overtime cheques over the years, people still expect some kind of reward.

It depends. There is a difference between working hard and meeting deadlines, exceeding expectations and making clients happy, versus working hard because you're inefficient or have a recourcing issue and are only just scraping by.

[SurferMan]

Hmm, I am in IT and this is my experience. I am very senior just so you can frame the context. If there is an issue or serious problem, it is inferred that I will put in the required time to solve it. That means I bill at a day rate, but can easily go into 12 hour days for a stretch of time. If it gets unreasonable I will ask to get OT (Overtime) approved. On planned projects like an SAP Upgrade I did, I know I would be doing around 100-120 hours a week, so the OT is pre-approved by myself.

So it is demand based. When the fires are not burning, I do 3-4 hours a day of work, but use the other time to mentor, write business cases, do strategy etc. So its swings and roundabouts. But overall I dont go over 40-45 hours a week. It is nothing compared to SA, where you are expected to slave by default.

[slabbert]

I was in a similar situation towards the end of last year due to a resourcing issue (IT project manager)

When I raised this with my line manager (CIO) I was told there was not budget for another FTE

So I managed his expectations by stating I could not cover all the workload even if I worked 24/7

and each morning I would sit with him for 5minutes with my "to do" list and get him to prioritise what we wanted me to focus on that day

This ensured I was spending my energy on the right tasks and that he was getting the critical deliverables that he needed

It also had the added bonus of making it VERY visible to him just how massive the workload was

After 2 months of this, he agreed to a contractor to end of FY15

The contractor has now just become permanent FTE as CIO ensured the cost for this additional resource was in FY16 budget

South Africans are known for their hard working ethic and most managers will try push staff to the maximum they can get out of them

So yes work hard and be prepared to put in some overtime when needed but try not to allow it to become the norm

because it also becomes the managers norm - getting 12/7 out of you at same cost and getting the deliverables they pushing you for (win win for them)

[Donovan83]

I think it also depends where you end up. WA was much more laid back than Victoria, for what it's worth.

Personally, with all my roles I have had a fairly strict mindset. I am not a slave, I am not an indentured servant, I am being paid to do a job. I don't mind working reasonable extra hours (I do it all the time, especially at my new job) but those hours must be repaid somehow, whether in cash or with downtime. The extra hours must also be necessary, unavoidable and extraordinary. You can't be working 12 hours a day, 7 days a week on an ongoing basis, where is the time to have a life?

The way I see it... I believe am paid a good salary. From time to time I need to work extra hours - so in times of normal hours, I am over recovering from my employer, in times of longer hours, it'll balance out when I under recover. That seems mostly fair for me.

I don't buy in to the whole not being the first to go home mentality. I leave when I am done for the day. If there's something that MUST be done today, and I have to leave on time for some reason, I am adult enough to come in early that day to make sure my job is done. I guess it's also fair not to bolt for the door at exactly 5pm... I have some great laughs with the people I work with between 5 and 6 for some reason.

If you're working that long without breaks, I think that is very abnormal. Maybe time to look for something else?

[Pell]

Having been in my job for almost 5 months, I can definitely say that i used to work 12 hour days as a matter of course, especially in the beginning. Weekends sometimes too. As I got used to the deadlines and reporting requirements, i found myself working lesser hours. What takes up a lot of time are the meetings and teleconferences at sometimes odd hours (the curse of being in a global role, I guess). I've also hired an assistant in the meantime as my boss warns me that there is a lot more work coming my way. You know what they say, if you want a job done, give it to an already busy person.... It would be good to earn more money, as my husband has still not found anything 5+ months in....

[SurferMan]

As a rule these days I will not work OT unless I get time in lieu or payment. I am too jealous of my family and my kids. Time is the one thing that you cannot, buy, sell, trade etc.

[Sunnyskies]

People who refuse to work overtime in my field if they don't get paid or get time in lieu generally have a short lifespan.

[RDD]

People who give in to overtime without getting some benefit generally don't have a life...

[Eyebrow]

Yes I wondered about that too...

I work like that, and more is expected all the time.

I have no time to go to the bathroom!

I have been coughing for over 4 weeks now, so much so I thought i perhaps had TB... But I went to work.

Boss said I must pop out to GP over lunch hour. That left me puzzled. Since I am yet to HAVE AN ACTUAL LUNCH HOUR!

[SurferMan]

No chance that I will let myself be bullied like that anymore. It is one thing to suck up to get more work/stay employed to pay bills, which I have done while on a 457, quite another if you drop dead on the job to please a bully. I hate bullies. Eyebrow, you are legally entitled to get see a doc!

[benp]

Contract of employment is exactly that, contract. Just like I do not expect employer to pay me more than what is stated in the contract, they should not expect me to work more hours than agreed in the contract. S&^t happens so occasional exceptions allowed, but if employer considers non-reimbursed OT to be part of 'regular' effort , than sorry mate, not sure I want to work for slave owner, unless my job description is 'slave'.

Sure, some professions are different, doctors, nurses, rescue workers....but for office bound jobs, more often than not, world will not come to an end if something gets done tomorrow instead of today. And more often than not, it is company's own fault for under-resourcing and over-committing. So fair pay for fair day's work please.

People who refuse to work overtime in my field if they don't get paid or get time in lieu generally have a short lifespan.

Yes, cause poor souls probably die of exertion and stress!

Edited June 3, 2015 by benp

[Sunnyskies]

I find it interesting that people find my comment objectionable or unacceptable. Maybe I've been indoctrinated but in my profession it is quite accepted that you don't get paid overtime. Yes it is a profession and not a trade and the view is that you get paid enough to work overtime without more pay when needed. Sometimes as a junior you get time in lieu but not always. I've been in my profession for 20 years and still alive so I think it is doable.

[RDD]

Accepted is very different to expected.... And it should never be expected.

It is different if you have a deadline which requires the overtime (which we all have every now and again - I'm a CA, so I have/had my fair share)....But if this is a weekly occurence then it needs to be addressed and/or rewarded (time or money). Otherwise you are being abused and need to reconsider what you do!!!

Work is never more important than your health and family time...Plain and simple...

[SurferMan]

Hi Sunnyskies,

I did not find your post offensive or objectionable in any way, you merely put your point across.

I have officially worked enough OT in my life to have hit retirement (63) At a project for an oil and gas client I pulled 451 hours a month on average.

I got paid by the hours, so that was awesome! But I have had clients who took the absolute piss out of it, and soured me. So now, to respect those boundaries I make it clear the contract says day rate of X thousand a day, and thats for 8 hours. I'll do some extra here and there, and I am no slacker, but like RDD says, if you want more time from me, pay me or give me time off etc.

There is not a professional who in the normal course of their duties give free time. I'm not talking about community service, pro bono etc, I mean real time. If you use a mechanic/lawyer etc, they charge by the hour. I am a highly skilled IT guy, you pay me by the hour or day. You want more, you pay more.

Maybe I am getting selfish in my older years, but seeing my kids and wife is WAAAY more valuable than any cheque a client can wave in my face.

Let me share a very personal story that changed my outlook on work for good. I spent the last 10 years in SA working like an animal. One day in 2007 I came home early on a Sunday afternoon from a banking client. We were working 7 days a week in prep for go-live, so we were pushing 80-110 hours a week. They gave us the Sunday arvo off due to a system shutdown, and I was not needed for 12 hours. I got on the horn to the missus to tell the butler to fire up the braai, take out some meat (lots) and chill some ales, daddy's on his way. :ilikeit:

I raced up the stairs to the lapa we had built by the pool. I saw my son and ran to pick him up. He started bawling his eyes out. I was like, whats wrong mate? My wife, ever the sage and absolute rock, calmly said to me, "He barely recognises you. You have been gone almost 2 months effectively." That was like a sledghammer in the gut. :cry: I had been getting up at 3-4am to travel in to be on time for the daily 5am meeting, and only left after 8-10pm at night. He never saw me for all that time.

I do admire your ethic though, I was like that, a long time ago. But I won't go back there, not for all the tea in China.

[Nev]

Yep, i have to do a ton of unpaid overtime,

My feeling is that i earn well and to a point need to i need to put in the extra, but in the case of my current job i am now working 6-7 day weeks and that is too much.

So time to move on and try something new

As a side, my hard work and overtime is what got me to Auz and the salary i currently enjoy, so to an extent i am willing to put in the hours, my personal feeling is 4-5 hours of overtime a week is acceptable, more for short periods, but that will vary for other people.

Do yourself a favor, put a number to the time you feel you are prepared to give extra based on the salary and how much you like working for the company, if they are exceeding that then have a talk to them, if no joy it is time to move on.

[SurferMan]

Nev, Matey you nailed it,

That's my approach as well. At my level I am expected to put in a few extra here and there, and honestly I dont mind at all. It's rorters that get to me.

[DXB2OZ]

So, first of all, thanks everyone (again) for all the support. Thought I had better post an update.

Went in, put my hands up and begged for mercy. Wow! I did get a stern talking to about not letting things spiral out of control before shouting for help (we work quite independently), but then team rallied around and tried to take as many of the little tasks off my plate as possible, which lightened my load incredibly. Am down to between 45 and 50 hours a week, each week coming down, but it is year end so will take another month or so.

Just got my permanent employment contract, with an effective increase of 36% from where I was (took a pay cut for the trial period due to lack of local experience), superannuation, phone, support if I want to go the Ca route and another review in December. Feeling much happier (although stressing about year end, but this too will pass).

[monsta]

That's great news!

I know its sad they let it go on until you said something. Then they act like they couldn't see it was a problem. That's just people covering themselves

But in the end it seems to have worked out. I worked with a guy who told me that he never felt like he won with the company. They would be nice on some things and horrible on others. But when he looked at the big picture, he was better off than at another company.

For example, he had a boss who dumped tons of uttey pointless work on him. His boss left a year later. But when he decided to move out here, they gave him a similar job in the Aussie office.

Win some, loose some was his motto.

Edited July 1, 2015 by monsta

[qwerty]

The company I work for currently said that they expect you to work hard during the day when you are at work, but do NOT want you to work overtime; only when absolutely necessary.

[Donovan83]

That is excellent DXB2OZ

[SurferMan]

I just noticed that I am getting paid OT by my client for anything over 45 hours. Saw it on my timesheets and I was like, err, i worked 49 hours ths week and got paid a full extra day. Love it.