RIP Nelson Mandela

[Riekie]

It's just amazing how we could have a conversation here about Mandela - liked him or not - without the whole conversation ending up in the gutter and racist & hateful remarks being flung around. I've been on a Facebook site (you probably know which one... ) where there's been posting after posting of absolute vulgar and disrespectful remarks from calling him a k@--ir, wishing the stadium would cave in and kill them all, to shooting a black person in a Spiderman suit with a AK47 - and in the next breath crying out about God being the true Saviour and not Mandela (who even suggested otherwise?!) I was gobsmacked that people could carry on like that! Sure, have your difference of opinion, but do it in a civilised manner, respectful of another opinion. I've never seen so much hate and so many hypocrates behaving in such a disgraceful manner in one place at the same time!

Anyway, so thank you for being so civil about it! It shows maturity and humanity, regardless of opinion.

[zamunda]

It's just amazing how we could have a conversation here about Mandela - liked him or not - without the whole conversation ending up in the gutter and racist & hateful remarks being flung around. I've been on a Facebook site (you probably know which one... ) where there's been posting after posting of absolute vulgar and disrespectful remarks from calling him a k@--ir, wishing the stadium would cave in and kill them all, to shooting a black person in a Spiderman suit with a AK47 - and in the next breath crying out about God being the true Saviour and not Mandela (who even suggested otherwise?!) I was gobsmacked that people could carry on like that! Sure, have your difference of opinion, but do it in a civilised manner, respectful of another opinion. I've never seen so much hate and so many hypocrates behaving in such a disgraceful manner in one place at the same time!

Anyway, so thank you for being so civil about it! It shows maturity and humanity, regardless of opinion.

Sadly these attitudes are brought into Australia and the Australians are making note. I have been here only two months and the disgust (on the part of Australians) I have heard on how some of the South Africans are bringing their attitudes here was quite a surprise to me. I am a person of colour and despite what we had to go through then I was always told (by my parents) that the extreme views and attitudes only came from a small minority of White people. I firmly believe that this is still the case today. It is always (in any situation) the minor minority that creates a bad name for everyone else. Just hope that it does not spoil the good name we as a society have here in Aus.

[ace]

Yes Mandela did form umkhonto we sizwe but when was umkhonte we sizwe formed. Mandela did not form umkhonto we sizwe as a first resort. Umkhonto we sizwe was formed as a last resort. It was formed after numerous request to the apartheied government to treat people of colour like human beings and not like animals. Lets be frank people of colour espescially blacks were not treated humanly. Put yourself in Mr mandelas position. Having to carry dompasses. Cant enter town after 6. watching the apartheid government murdering innocent women and children. ( We all mention how mandela killed people withouth mentioning that the apartheid government did it first). People of colour were denied the right to study freely at a university of they choice. This all because the apartheid government believed they had a god given right to abuse and kill people of colour. Some might consider Mandela a terrorist and you have every right to your viewpoint , but in all honesty one needs to look at consequences that were faced my the majority of South Africans during the apartheid era. How long can you expect a human being to continue accepting being treated like an animal just because a certain race believe that they are superior to all other races before he retaliates.

[Donovan83]

Yes Mandela did form umkhonto we sizwe but when was umkhonte we sizwe formed. Mandela did not form umkhonto we sizwe as a first resort. Umkhonto we sizwe was formed as a last resort. It was formed after numerous request to the apartheied government to treat people of colour like human beings and not like animals. Lets be frank people of colour espescially blacks were not treated humanly. Put yourself in Mr mandelas position. Having to carry dompasses. Cant enter town after 6. watching the apartheid government murdering innocent women and children. ( We all mention how mandela killed people withouth mentioning that the apartheid government did it first). People of colour were denied the right to study freely at a university of they choice. This all because the apartheid government believed they had a god given right to abuse and kill people of colour. Some might consider Mandela a terrorist and you have every right to your viewpoint , but in all honesty one needs to look at consequences that were faced my the majority of South Africans during the apartheid era. How long can you expect a human being to continue accepting being treated like an animal just because a certain race believe that they are superior to all other races before he retaliates.

Just because the apartheid government did it too doesn't make it right. I think that most people's issue isn't that Mandela played a role in the deaths of innocent civilians, it's that somehow that part is completely forgotten about. He did a lot of good for SA but as it's been said previously he was definitely no saint.

You raise a good point though: the apartheid government also instituted job reservations and racially discriminative laws. The ANC does the same thing, the only difference is it's against white people instead of black people. Somehow it's acceptable though.

[Kurkprop]

Riekie I know which page you are talking about and it has really been getting to me. I 'un-joined' the page this morning as I don't want to be part of a group that at best sweeps all the hate-speech under the carpet and at worst encourages it. It's a pity because there were some interesting and useful posts amongst the bile.

[chzaau]

I came across a series of interesting articles, stats figures etc, sometimes numbers do truly give a sense of what has gone on. I recommend reading this article from Justice Malala http://www.dispatch.co.za/opinion/anc-no-longer-has-leaders-but-zombies-who-follow/

Some stats collected from the Truth and Reconciliation and Human Rights Commissions.

Number of black people killed

1948 to 1989 (Under Apartheid) = 7000

1990 to 1994 = 14,000 (92% black on black)

1994 to 2000 = 174,200 (Under Democratic rule)

Interesting thought is unemployment in 1994 stood at 15%, today it is 35% +. http://www.justice.gov.za/trc/media/1997/9705/s970527b.htm

Mandela was a strong brand for South Africa, some people in the world don't know South Africa but know of Mandela. Now that he has passed South Africa will most likely slip away and be just another African Country with a proud history of crime, murder, corruption etc, all those things we associate with Africa, it is indeed a sad day, Cry the beloved country.

[Erik]

I came across a series of interesting articles, stats figures etc, sometimes numbers do truly give a sense of what has gone on. I recommend reading this article from Justice Malala http://www.dispatch.co.za/opinion/anc-no-longer-has-leaders-but-zombies-who-follow/

Some stats collected from the Truth and Reconciliation and Human Rights Commissions.

Number of black people killed

1948 to 1989 (Under Apartheid) = 7000

1990 to 1994 = 14,000 (92% black on black)

1994 to 2000 = 174,200 (Under Democratic rule)

Interesting thought is unemployment in 1994 stood at 15%, today it is 35% +. http://www.justice.gov.za/trc/media/1997/9705/s970527b.htm

Mandela was a strong brand for South Africa, some people in the world don't know South Africa but know of Mandela. Now that he has passed South Africa will most likely slip away and be just another African Country with a proud history of crime, murder, corruption etc, all those things we associate with Africa, it is indeed a sad day, Cry the beloved country.

I'm not sure I would believe these stats as the apartheid government wasn't really known for keeping great record of black people. How many people didn't even have ID numbers before the 1994 elections? How many of these "employed" people were just not counted, because if you were living on a farm getting a bag of mielie meel a month you didn't even exist on their radar. I'm not saying that this is completely wrong, but lets be a bit realistic about "statistics".

[McCabes]

I agree Erik.

I am now so grateful that I have only seen people appreciative of Mandela, and all he stood for, and honouring the man.

He did not do it all alone, but I consider him a catalyst for the changes that took place.

He himself said (basically) he's no saint and people mustn't remember him that way.

Rolihlahla means "trouble maker". The other day on the way to work I thought how in this case, I'm so grateful to the parents who gave him this name, and raised him in a way that not only allowed him to fight against injustice, but to step away after the fight, and forgive all the wrongdoings.

He fought against white oppression, he fought against black oppression. He was a fighter, and I won't forget that.

But neither will I forget what his fight - what everyone will remember him for - his contribution to ending apartheid - what that has meant for my children.

yes there is all the bad stuff all of us are so aware of, especially on this forum since all of us are out/trying to get out.

But my kids will never know segregation, will never be indoctrinated with rubbish about any person being better than any other based on something as rediculous as race or culture. I'm so in awe, and so gratefull that classes and schools and birthday parties are now a mish-mash of all peoples of SA. I think it's wonderful - and even more wonderful that while I see it, and appreciate it, my kids will never look on it as being something to even remark on!

I'm also grateful to have grown up with only a vague memory of racial segregation, of experiencing the integration of all kids into schools, and with a deep appreciation for what Mandela did, and stood for. I don't think the "born-frees" will every truly understand it the way their parents do.

As for the haters, let them hate. It's just hot air and doesn't mean anything. The "worst" I've come across is people moaning that he was "just another man" and "nothing special" and they don't get why people are making such a fuss. Poor folk.

Edited December 12, 2013 by McCabes

[AndreaL]

Statistics are an interesting thing.

I along with Riekie have been utterly appalled at the hatred spewed forth on various Facebook sites and at the twisting of facts and truths to support an attitude that many have............that things weren't so bad under apartheid, not as many people died then as post '94, that Mandela was a terrorist and ultimately responsible for all deaths since democracy.

Many are using the fact that umkhonto we sizwe mounted attacks of sabotage in which people died to support the terrorist accusations, oddly nothing is said about right wing activities such as SAP Generals supplying arms to Inkatha to destabilise the country ' the third force", the bogus AWB Ventersdorp roadblock to attack black people, bombing of the ANC office in '94, bombings in the PWV area that killed 21 and injured 178,.........................these are but a tiny percentage of the events that have shaped South African history and both sides have been guilty of atrocities...............one to demand freedom and rights for every person and one to continue to dominate and oppress.......................so every-time I see the Mandela was a terrorist argument, I want to just present accurate facts...............not to excuse the wrongs practised by all parties or to condone the real mess that South Africa finds itself in, but to show that you must look at both sides to try and understand and get a more balanced picture of the politics of the land.

Statistics are only as good as the way in which they are presented, those stats from the TRC that are being bandied about and compared to the murder rate now in RSA are applicable to political deaths...............one has to consider that reporting methods were less stringent than today, as many people were without any form of documentation, were not counted, had no voting rights etc...............one wonders how many people simply did not exist.

Stats from the TRC............these are political deaths

The manuscript mentions, among its statistics:

- 80,000 detentions without trial for periods of up to three years, including the detention of about 10,000 women and at least 15000 children under the age of 18;

- 73 deaths in detention recorded by the HRC as deaths while in the hands of the security police;

- 37 names of those who died while in custody of the uniformed police under politically-related circumstances;

- 3000 people served banning or restriction orders in terms of security legislation;

- 15000 people charged under security legislation since 1950 in political trials, and the 49 names of those who paid the ultimate price of political execution;

- 7000 political deaths between 1948 and 1989 and 46 massacres in that period, as well as i4000 lives lost and 22000 injuries in the period 1990 to the elections in 1994; and

- abductions (30), disappearances (38) and internal assassinations (150).

Hit squad and vigilante group activities in covert repression are also documented.

http://www.justice.gov.za/trc/media/1997/9705/s970527b.htm

A reminder of what was happening in RSA in 1994 "72 Days that shaped a nation",http://www.southafrica.info/about/history/72days1.htm#.UqlTfeIauLs

The following article refutes statistics that Steve Hofmeyer uses on his FB page " My tribe is dying", largely based on statistics from a "flawed" paper by Rob McCafferty of lobby group United Christian Action.

For me, when people spread misinformation or manipulate facts, it causes more hate and mistrust, which makes a cohesive South African society less probable

Public figures like Hofmeyr, who disseminate grossly misleading information about crime patterns, only serve to contribute to this underlying fear. In addition, such misinformation creates or entrenches existing racial divisions and perpetuates an unfounded fear and hatred of other races. - See more at: http://www.africacheck.org/reports/are-white-afrikaners-really-being-killed-like-flies/#sthash.3xDZy6mJ.dpuf

Full article here http://http://www.africacheck.org/reports/are-white-afrikaners-really-being-killed-like-flies/#sthash.3xDZy6mJ.dpuf

Fear is a great fueller of hatred............I think I finally saw (on a facebook post originally from a white extremist group, in which a video purporting to be of a white woman who had been raped and then stoned in the street) that people will use untruths to further their fear and hatred. (The video was in fact of a Somali man, I can't establish if he was a rapist being attacked by a mob justice group, or if it was a xenophobic attack, but it was a man from Somalia....................not that that is any excuse for that particular hate and violence)...............................even after a few people, including myself had questioned the veracity of the video, folks continued to use racist and aggressive language, including to those of us who questioned the video.

Ad hominem attacks are par for the course, "why don't you go back if you love them so much" is but one of the milder comments, or, " you are trying to justify the murder of your own people", or to my great horror, biblical passages used to support the crime that was/is apartheid..............that is simply not it, I know that terrible attacks are happening, and that farming communities are very at risk, but adding the fuel of hate and division will not help............sadly I don't know what will. I just know that over the past few days I have been very saddened by what I have read, angry at the lies used and left with a feeling of hopelessness that unity and forgiveness will ever be the language of RSA.

As long as I still have family and friends in RSA, I will feel obliged to follow what is happening and to wish for peace and safety for all its people, no-one can deny me that.

:

[chzaau]

Quite a number of people are dying at the hands of the state today in South Africa. http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Over-900-die-in-police-custody-in-a-year-20130304

So what has actually changed since apartheid? If you take the a lower number then 932 deaths say 500 that is 9,500 people murdered by the state in only 19 years.

[McCabes]

chzaau, you are entitled to your opinion and perception of ongoing events.

However, this is a thread that was started in tribute to Nelson Mandela.

Please can we rather discuss other issues in different threads, in consideration for those who would simply like to pay tribute in this thread?

I, for one, would appreciate them being separated.

Thanks,

[chzaau]

I have paid my tributes but nor am I blind either, Mandela is not a saint as some have made him out to be. There a lot more people that made this freedom come true on both sides.

I also want to say how embarrassing the memorial service was for South Africa and a disgrace to Mandela, we had a schizophrenic "sign language" person, what does that say about security and 2nd the human rights crime this person committed against deaf people.

The singing, dancing, vuvuzela playing when World leaders where making their speeches, even a private band started playing that they had to tell to stop, Cyril had to keep telling the people to behave.

[DXB2OZ]

"I am not a saint, unless you count as a saint a sinner who keeps on trying." - Nelson Mandela

We all just need to keep on trying, it's the best we can do.

[McCabes]

Again: please can you separate other issues out into separate threads?

You obviously are quite angry/passionate about your views, but I would appreciate it if we could keep this thread solely as a tribute.

You are welcome to start any number of others to discuss the embarassment you felt the service was, the sign language interpreter, etc.

I honestly don't feel I'm being unreasonable here? Please PM me if you feel my request is out of line, and we can discuss?

[AndreR]

So, starting high school in the mid 80's, the apartheid war machine started preparing me for the total onslaught by the swart gevaar. In std 6 we were issued kadet uniforms and once a week we were marched around a parade ground for a couple of hours. This lasted for five years and we even got taught to shoot. Later on I would see videos of the SS youth doing the same on the History channel and realised how sick we were.

I recall this as a period of me starting to ask questions and form my own political opinions. I also recall writing an essay in std 8 about this vicious dog chained to a pole and being taunted with a stick, just waiting for the day the chain would break. I went on to make this analogy to apartheid. So already as a 15 year old I had this fear that the time would come when there would be a violent backlash against aprtheid, especially with 'terrorists' like Nelson Mandela leading the charge.

Then this terrorist gets let out of jail and does the unthinkable, he forgives us all, puts on a Springbok jersey and makes us truly proud to be South African. Yes, innocent people did die, but it wasn't one sided. One thing that still haunts me to this day is seing grown black men being humiliated by white kids, growing up in this really conservative west rand town. That used to fill me with rage, and I wasn't even the victim. Those werent isolated incidents, saying otherwise would be living in total denial.

Yes, today I am in Australia, and South Africa didnt work out for me, but the fact that we weren't reduced to a violent civil war after apartheid rests on the shoulders of that one man, and for that we should eternally grateful.

Edited December 12, 2013 by AndreR

[Toitjie]

A couple of nights ago, Monday I think, there was this doccie on Oz tv, I cannot remember the name but it was such an interesting story. They spoke with people from everywhere who knew Madiba and who had dealings with him. From Tokio Sexwale, to FW de Klerk and many journalists.

I believe the story was well balanced and I learned a few things that I did not know before. What stood out really for me is that he had a presence that was undeniable. People who have met him all agreed that he had a charisma and presence that was unsurpassed.

When I hear this I wish I could have experienced that too. I wish I could also say I have met him and felt his presence. Seeing the footage of that doccie made me realise in exactly what bubble I have existed. I have honestly not known about things happening. I was unaware...but in hindsight...seeing these pictures and reading, I realise that he did a lot for South Africa. Irrespective of where and why he started out...the ending was magnificent. I hope that what he envisioned for us can be reached by the powers to be.

[RAD]

I completely agree with you Mcabes. This thread was started as a tribute to the great NELSON MANDELA.

Viva Nelson Mandela viva.

Long live Nelson Mandela long live

Edited December 12, 2013 by RAD

[ace]

Mandela never denied bombing strategic points across the country but he always mantained that these bombings were done at night and no civilans were hurt.it was the apartheid government that claimed that mandela killed innocent people and in my opinion and I state that its my opinion that the apartheid government were ful of lies and I would believe madibas word over theirs anyday. So many still believe hisa terorist. I believe he is man of peace, and a hero to me.

[AndreaL]

Sorry about getting into politics yesterday, I was just so saddened by what I was reading everywhere and needed to get it off my chest so to speak.

Anyway, among all of the posts was one which made me cry, it showed that Mandela was not only a fighter for peoples rights, not only a politician, not only a head of charitable trusts for AIDS and children........................................but a man with a kind heart.

The person who shared the story is a member of this forum from years ago and someone I have come to know outside of the forum via FB and other sites..........any way this is what she posted.

Her daughter became pregnant whilst in high school and was expelled from the school, she wrote to Nelson Mandela ( I'm not sure if it was whilst he was President or afterwards) .........anyway, he personally intervened and saw that the daughter was re-instated in the school and could finish her education..............but what absolutely convinced me that Nelson Mandela had a good heart, was that when her daughters baby was born, he sent a personal letter of congratulations on the birth of the baby.

How many other people of his stature would take the time out to do this?

A simple kindness like this, to an unknown person and for no personal gain, shows me what he was made of. If we all just did one simple kindness like this, the world would be a better place.