Can Autism Be Cured?

[McCabes]

ok.

I want to ask how all of you would feel if you took your child for MMR, after it being delayed due to illness, parasite infection, what-have-you, and when you took him at age 2, the nurse told you she can't give it to him now, because it will hurt his brain?

What would you think? And if it's not safe at 2, why is it ok at 15months, or 18months? I honestly don't get that.

Second Q - my middle daughter took 18 months to heal from the very first vacc injection she had the day after she was born. 18 months. Wouldn't you be anxious that she's one of the few kids who do have a bad reaction? How would you handle it?

My youngest didn't take quite as long to heal, but her scar from the same, very first day-after-she-was-born vaccination looks like a surgical cut, with suture marks. I swear - it's about an inch long with weird lines twisting out that look like scars from being stitched up.

In both cases, I did as instructed and left the injection site 100% alone. No-one touched it, fiddled etc. I never observed either child ever touching it either.

Please understand, I'm trying to work out how other people would react, I'm not trying to be difficult, but if these were your kids, and you had been through this with your own, how would you feel? what would you think?

[Mel-B]

My baby's TB shot site is HORRIBLE. It is red and looks infected although it is "fine" and not sore. Its been a year and a month. I agree with you as I think if there is a good reason to not do it then it shouldn't get done. It isn't for everyone. My child was so sick from rotarix and no one else I know had the same problem. So it isn't for everyone, although it works for most. If you have reasons for not doing it then I say stick to you guns. I am using an alternative schedule for my second child as he seems to react very badly to the shots so far.

I am not pro or against immunization. I started off very pro but my kids had mixed reactions to it and it has scared us badly. I think every child's health status and allergies/reactions, etc should be taken into consideration as well as each shot considering the consequences of having it or not. Most kids we know are fine with it, (that we have come across) except ours.

Very difficult spot to be in.

[AndreaL]

Hi McCabes

I know we have talked about these things before and I still do respect your decisions, I have not been through what you have, and had I would probably be making the same choices...................that is why this is such an emotive topic.

Each of us can only make our choices based on our own experiences....................and yes, if my kids reacted badly, chances are I would have been more worried.

What does concern me.......................only in that we need to be asking questions and demanding answers, what of those kids who were unvaccinated and still ended up autistic?

The more we talk the more we learn.

[Nev]

Quite simply it is about what is the greater risk, although there is no medical evidence to back it up people are worried about risks associated with vaccination so that is one side of the argument,

here is the other side,

Some of the things that people who are not vaccinated could end up with, and herd immunity wont cut it because i would hope they do well enough to be able to travel in their lives and not all countries have eliminated these to the extent that Aus has plus as more people dont vaccinate we will be seeing breakouts of these in Aus as well

Polio

Before polio vaccine was available, 13,000 to 20,000 cases of paralytic polio were reported each year in the United States

Measles

According to the World Health Organization (WHO), nearly 900,000 measles-related deaths occurred among persons in developing countries in 1999. In populations that are not immune to measles, measles spreads rapidly. If vaccinations were stopped, each year about 2.7 million measles deaths worldwide could be expected.

Haemophilus Influenzae Type b (Hib) Meningitis

efore the vaccine was developed, there were approximately 20,000 invasive Hib cases annually

It killed 600 children each year and left many survivors with deafness, seizures, or mental retardation.

Since introduction of conjugate Hib vaccine in December 1987, the incidence of Hib has declined by 98 percent

Pertussis (Whooping Cough)

Before pertussis immunizations were available, nearly all children developed whooping cough. In the U.S., prior to pertussis immunization, between 150,000 and 260,000 cases of pertussis were reported each year, with up to 9,000 pertussis-related deaths

Pneumococcal

Before pneumococcal conjugate vaccine became available for children, pneumococcus caused 63,000 cases of invasive pneumococcal disease and 6,100 deaths in the U.S. each year

Many children who developed pneumococcal meningitis also developed long-term complications such as deafness or seizures. Since the vaccine was introduced, the incidence rate of invasive pneumococcal disease in children has been reduced by about 85%

Rubella (German Measles)

While rubella is usually mild in children and adults, up to 90 percent of infants born to mothers infected with rubella during the first trimester of pregnancy will develop congenital rubella syndrome (CRS), resulting in heart defects, cataracts, mental retardation, and deafness.

In 1964-1965, before rubella immunization was used routinely in the U.S., there was an epidemic of rubella that resulted in an estimated 20,000 infants born with CRS, with 2,100 neonatal deaths and 11,250 miscarriages. Of the 20,000 infants born with CRS, 11,600 were deaf, 3,580 were blind, and 1,800 were mentally retarded.

Since 1999, there have been 40 pregnant women infected with rubella.

Varicella (Chickenpox)

Prior to the licensing of the chickenpox vaccine in 1995, almost all persons in the United States had suffered from chickenpox by adulthood. Each year, the virus caused an estimated 4 million cases of chickenpox, 11,000 hospitalizations, and 100-150 deaths.

Hepatitis B

More than 2 billion persons worldwide have been infected with the hepatitis B virus at some time in their lives. Of these, 350 million are life-long carriers of the disease and can transmit the virus to others. One million of these people die each year from liver disease and liver cancer.

National studies have shown that about 12.5 million Americans have been infected with hepatitis B virus at some point in their lifetime. One and one quarter million Americans are estimated to have chronic (long-lasting) infection, of whom 20 percent to 30 percent acquired their infection in childhood. Chronic hepatitis B virus infection increases a person's risk for chronic liver disease, cirrhosis, and liver cancer. About 5,000 persons will die each year from hepatitis B-related liver disease resulting in over $700 million in medical and work loss costs.

The number of new infections per year has declined from an average of 450,000 in the 1980s to about 80,000 in 1999. The greatest decline has occurred among children and adolescents due to routine hepatitis B vaccination.

Diphtheria

Diphtheria is a serious disease caused by a bacterium. This germ produces a poisonous substance or toxin which frequently causes heart and nerve problems. The case fatality rate is 5 percent to 10 percent, with higher case-fatality rates (up to 20 percent) in children younger than 5 and adults older than 40 years of age.

In the 1920s, diphtheria was a major cause of illness and death for children in the U.S. In 1921, a total of 206,000 cases and 15,520 deaths were reported. With vaccine development in 1923, new cases of diphtheria began to fall in the U.S. In the past decade, there were less than five cases of diphtheria in the U.S. reported to CDC.

Tetanus (Lockjaw)

Tetanus is a severe, often fatal disease. The bacteria that cause tetanus are widely distributed in soil and street dust, are found in the waste of many animals, and are very resistant to heat and germ-killing cleaners. From 1922-1926, there were an estimated 1,314 cases of tetanus per year in the U.S. In the late 1940's, the tetanus vaccine was introduced, and tetanus became a disease that was officially counted and tracked by public health officials. In 2000, only 41 cases of tetanus were reported in the U.S.

People who get tetanus suffer from stiffness and spasms of the muscles. The larynx (throat) can close causing breathing and eating difficulties, muscles spasms can cause fractures (breaks) of the spine and long bones, and some people go into a coma, and die. Approximately 20 percent of reported cases end in death.

Mumps

Before the mumps vaccine was introduced, mumps was a major cause of deafness in children, occurring in approximately 1 in 20,000 reported cases. Mumps is usually a mild viral disease. However, serious complications, such as inflammation of the brain (encephalitis) can occur rarely. Prior to mumps vaccine, mumps encephalitis was the leading cause of viral encephalitis in the United States, but is now rarely seen.

Serious side effects of mumps are more common among adults than children. Swelling of the testes is the most common side effect in males past the age of puberty, occurring in up to 37 percent of post-pubertal males who contract mumps. An increase in miscarriages has been found among women who develop mumps during the first trimester of pregnancy.

Before there was a vaccine against mumps, mumps was a very common disease in U.S. children, with as many as 300,000 cases reported every year. After vaccine licensure in 1967, reports of mumps decreased rapidly. In 1986 and 1987, there was a resurgence of mumps with 12,848 cases reported in 1987. Since 1989, the incidence of mumps has declined, with 266 reported cases in 2001.

[AndreaL]

One thing, I don't like is the comment that ..................."I guess it is each parents choice to inject these toxins into their babies blood".

If my kids got cancer, I would have them treated with the best that science currently offers, and that would involve drugs that knock out good and bad bacteria and cells, and reduce immunity, leaving people open to infection, and potentially death......................I've had treatment with methotrexate, used for cancer and auto immune diseases and can have life threatening side effects................but made an informed decision based on my condition at the time.

I think we sometimes forget the role of medicine in treatment of conditions like high blood pressure, diabetes etc, and none of these medications are risk free. it is always a weighing up of the perceived risks of the treatment and the potential improvements of illness or disease.......................at some point treatment can outweigh benefits and should be really considered.

Recently my SIL's father was diagnosed with stomach cancer which spread quickly, he had the choice of a colostomy and cystectomy, which would have meant two bags and was only given a 50% chance of survival, he chose not to go through with the surgery...........My SIL was angry that he would not do whatever it took to live and felt that he was abandoning her..................we talked and I think she came to realise that her Dad was terminal, he had been sent home from the hospital with a Macmillan nurse, and wanted to die in his own way, and with his deifinition of dignity.

I still feel that I must trust the best science we have, and with the statistics that Nev has put above, still feel that the benefits of vaccination far outweigh the potential risks.

My Mum lost the baby before me at 5 months due to rubella.

[Mel-B]

I know of many autistic kids that have never been immunized. So yes agreed. There are so many things to consider and worry about Hormones in our food, GMO foods, pollution, etc etc etc...

[Eyebrow]

To people who think giving the child Calpol to prevent fever, it is not that clear cut.

People point fingers to vaccinations, but forget that paracetamol is what is given with almost every vaccination...

And that if it isn't the vaccination, doesn't that leaves us with... paracetamol?

There was a sharp rise in autism when paracetamol was used in kids instead of aspirin.

And drops in autism incidence when paracetamol sales dropped (when there was the cyanide in paracetamol scare)

Edited May 6, 2014 by Eyebrow

[Nev]

You have to be careful relating things together, im pretty sure you could so similar with cell phones, driving cars, the temperature of the earth due to global warming, all have increased over the years so you could say that any or all of those could be responsible for autism and they have both increased over about the same period,

It is all just coincidence until it is proved and if not then i'm sure it is the rise in cell phones that has done it..... remember when peeps were all over that as the reason for everything?

Also the graph has a very different scale for the two things, autistic disorders starts at 100 not 0 and goes up in hundreds, asthma starts at 0 and goes up in 20's per 100 000, and even with all that distorting of the numbers they are still not terribly close.

Pretty much anything can be blamed for it and someone can make a good and really believable case for it, here are some of the medically dis-proven ones, however there is a lot of really believable nonsense out there that convinces a lot of people,

http://www.cheezypickle.com/10-crazy-theories-on-the-cause-of-autism/

[McCabes]

Mel-B, that has to be the most balanced reply I've ever seen, thank you. I also don't think it's vaccs, or ALL vaccs, I think in *some* kids, vaccinations can act as a trigger where there is an underlying condition. Otherwise I agree - we're pumping ourselves so full of junk - GMO and colourants/additives/preservatives. I think that's also why so many kids get *better* when put onto a diet of meat and veg and not much else - cut out all the junk, and their bodies have a chance to cope. I think in general, autism isn't alone in seeing an increase. Think about all the chronic diseases, plus stuff like gluten allergy (which shares a LOT of symptoms with ADHD) - I read somewhere that gluten intolerance has increased by 300% since they started using GMOs. It wouldn't surprise me. I don't think we're supposed to be messing with our food like this.

Re vaccs... I don't know what we will end up doing. I really wish they'd come up with a way to screen for the kids who are susceptible to bad reactions - there must be something - or a few things - in common between the kids that DO react, that they can check for, surely? Plus I think if they did do that, the naysayers wouldn't have much of a leg to stand on, and a lot more people would be happy to get their kids vacc'd. If I was given that option I'd jump in line, and then happily vacc if my kids came through the screening ok.

Anyway.

Nev, that kind of makes me think of Freakonomics/Superfreakonomics and the criticism of those books. I've actually stopped reading up because I'm not sure what to believe anymore.

I only know, my kids' reactions give me cause for concern.

Arrrrrggggggh.

I don't know what to do.

[Bronwyn&Co]

I had whooping cough while pregnant and cursed all those who were not vaccinated and had passed this on to me. From six months pregnant to the end (nearly four months in total) I did not sleep for more than 10 minutes at a time 24/7 while sitting up in a chair and I couldn't eat solid food for the whole time either because it set off the cough. It was a NIGHTMARE and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. I'm only grateful that it was me that got it and not my newborn son. As it is he was shaken in utero for those four months and it has affected his nervous system. He was the niggliest baby ever but thankfully my second child otherwise I would have got post natal depression thinking that I was the worst mother - unable to cope with this permanently overwrought baby.

As for the link to vaccination for autism, I have read some recent articles that it is not the vaccine itself but if a child gets a fever that sets off adverse brain action. These children are susceptible to fever causing the problem - so any fever for any reason including a cold. I always dosed my kids before and after vaccination so not sure if that would be a new recommendation?

Crisplet that sounds like hell And whooping cough sounds terrible too, doesn't it? I can't imagine what you went through.

ok.

I want to ask how all of you would feel if you took your child for MMR, after it being delayed due to illness, parasite infection, what-have-you, and when you took him at age 2, the nurse told you she can't give it to him now, because it will hurt his brain?

What would you think? And if it's not safe at 2, why is it ok at 15months, or 18months? I honestly don't get that.

Second Q - my middle daughter took 18 months to heal from the very first vacc injection she had the day after she was born. 18 months. Wouldn't you be anxious that she's one of the few kids who do have a bad reaction? How would you handle it?

My youngest didn't take quite as long to heal, but her scar from the same, very first day-after-she-was-born vaccination looks like a surgical cut, with suture marks. I swear - it's about an inch long with weird lines twisting out that look like scars from being stitched up.

In both cases, I did as instructed and left the injection site 100% alone. No-one touched it, fiddled etc. I never observed either child ever touching it either.

Please understand, I'm trying to work out how other people would react, I'm not trying to be difficult, but if these were your kids, and you had been through this with your own, how would you feel? what would you think?

McCabes if that happened to my family I must admit I'd be very concerned and sceptical of the process.

My kids were born in the mid nineties & we didn't even have the internet, I just took them to the local govt clinic as instructed & got the shots. No problems, maybe a bit of an unsettled night afterwards, that was all.

I think the chicken pox one only came in later though, because my son has had chicken pox.

Edited May 6, 2014 by Bronwyn&Co

[Bronwyn&Co]

To people who think giving the child Calpol to prevent fever, it is not that clear cut.

People point fingers to vaccinations, but forget that paracetamol is what is given with almost every vaccination...

And that if it isn't the vaccination, doesn't that leaves us with... paracetamol?

There was a sharp rise in autism when paracetamol was used in kids instead of aspirin.

And drops in autism incidence when paracetamol sales dropped (when there was the cyanide in paracetamol scare)

I do think this is an interesting idea, will look a bit closer at the stats. I don't blame parents for looking at absolutely everything to try and find a cause for autism.

I'm actually a bit surprised so many people's children have had bad reactions in general. Does make one think.

[Nev]

McCabes, i hear you, it is a hard choice,

My feeling though is that it does come down to what is the higher risk, quite simply the risk of not vaccinating is a magnitude higher then doing it, but that is my assessment and each person needs to make their own

Read all the studies, when you read something from someone look them up on the web to ensure they are not a nut, and then make the call, the checking people out is important, though, that first "doctor" sounded like a real expert until you did a bit of digging, and unfortunately there are a ton of them out there

Edited May 6, 2014 by Nev

[AndreaL]

I'm with Nev 100%...............I never believe anything on the internet unless peer reviewed and in the case of those aligned with the natural health industry, always check their background and what do they stand to get out of it....i.e. are they trying to flog expensive and useless supplements or books or something else.............this is a shame, because I have always had an interest in natural therapies, homoeopathy etc..............but the number of charlatans out there (snake oil sellers) is phenomenal.

When you read an article where statistics or findings from studies are reproduced..............go to the original study and see what info has been cherry picked to support a particular claim..............the anti-vaccine lobby are very good at this, using only part of the information to support a claim.

It is difficult for the layman to make sense of the more technical components of medical studies, many people don't understand how the body works at cellular or genetic level, that is why we get nonsense claims out there like " cancer can be cured with an alkaline diet, because cancer can only thrive in an acidic environment"..............utter rubbish.

We still don't understand enough about the role of genes, and the combination of genes and environmental factors in combination, so in the absence of absolute and irrefutable proof of what causes something, one can only work with an informed risk analysis formula.

[McCabes]

Thanks Nev. I've had one paed say *they* (being doctors) know that it can trigger something in like 1 in 1000000 kids, but it's very rare. I had another not impressed with me, but he was happy to accept that I was nervous (though he kept insisting I had meddled with my middle daughter's vacc site as it should never take that long to heal), and gave me an abbreviated list of vaccines he felt were the most important. He stressed Pneumococcal, and my middle daughter has only had that one (the new one, with even more strains) since her first lot of the 6-in-1s they get when they're tiny.

I'm on the fence, and yes, I have tried to only read the reputable stuff, the problem is that there's just enough in between all of it, combined with our personal experience, to make me worry...

I really liked Dr Sears approach - he recognizes that parents are concerned, and instead of telling people what they should do or trying to say *this* is always right for everyone, he's put together an alternative schedule - kids still get most of the vaccines, but spread out. I think that's a better approach, and is reassuring to everyone, and probably leads to more vaccinated kids than not.

Anyway

[OubaasDik]

.

Thank you