"elitism" On The Forum?

[qiktune]

I didn't notice until about an hour ago that there's a fair amount of it on this board.....either that or it's a certain demographic that posts here. I totally understand that many who live in "the Hills" or on Sydney's north side are really only able to offer advice as relates living conditions in those areas but come on, to write off other areas of Sydney as "not very nice" is ludicrous, especially when offering that advice to what may be a family who are desperately trying to get out of SA with very limited resources.

I've seen posts saying "don't go west" - well, as it happens there's a MASSIVE saffa community in St Clair/Erskine Park areas ( mostly from Durban ) who are quite happy to NOT be trying to keep up with the Jones's. Campbelltown too has a huge community of saffas...both of these groups although happy to get together with ex-pats for the occasional "dance" or whatever prefer just to settle into a multicultural community.

Sorry for my tirade but I just don't get the whole "come live in the Hills" thing....people are going to come here and end up broke. The suburbs that seem to get frowned upon by members of this board would be a walk in the park and a cheap starting point - even places like Mt Druitt/Rooty Hill would be no big deal compared to some areas of Cape Town and Jo'Burg....seriously guys, a little perspective. When we arrived in Aus we didn't know anyone and spent our first three months at Villawood Migrant Hostel ( now known as Villawood Immigration Detention Centre ), how about we offer advice along the lines of...."get here, find your feet for a couple of years and THEN decide where you want to or need to be". Jeez, my sister owns two rental properties in Beaumont Hills ( yes, in the Hills ) and she charges average rent for the area...it aint cheap!

I live between Campbelltown and Camden ( southwest of Sydney ) and not only has there never been a single report of burglary/theft or any other incident in the area since I built this house 6 years ago I think we probably trump both the Hills AND Sydney's north. By car I'm 35mins from the Sydney airport, 40mins from Newtown ( my fave place for coffee, people watching and music venues ). Public transport is great....and Camden airport is about 7mins drive from me - I only mention this because I had to charter a private jet to a gig in Armidale in May and although using Bankstown I later found that Camden airport does cater to not just prop planes but smaller jets as well. Travel to the southern highlands in about an hour.....and a dozen beaches including Wollongong and Bulli, most in less than 45mins. We have a couple of lakes in the area, loads of play areas and the streets were filled with kids dressed up and trick or treating on halloween.

Are there any others on the board in the southwest that have some positives to add?

[Donovan83]

I'm really glad to have someone post this... I've been worried about where to stay in Sydney when we arrive. People were always telling me not to go to this area or that area. I stayed both in the CBD and also in a nice hotel in Paramatta.

Obviously the CBD hotel was amazing. Then we went to Paramatta and at first glance the area seemed ROUGH! A few drunks here and there, zeff cars driving around, etc. I felt like a huge snob. After staying there for a few days, I actually found that despite it's rough edge, Paramatta is actually a lovely area. Not unsafe at all (walked alone from the train station a few early mornings). Sure it had its moments... like a drunk bogan woman yelling accross a courtyard about someone else's shoes but it was all really harmless. I always try remember - the worst of Australia is still better than the best of SA in terms of safety.

I think people should stop being such damn snobs. You dont have to live in the Sandton of Sydney to be happy.

Having said all that I have seen some really nice (although TINY) apartments in Surry Hills for around $500 000. It seems really close to the city though... which is nice (can cycle to work), but also will have a tradeoff (noise and possibly more pollution). Then again... it can't be worse than SA.

[Alida]

Aaaah well, I guess, everybody can stay where they want, like their own areas and dislike others. So what ?

I like my neighbourhood, others don't. That's OK, lets not tear each others hides off about something as trivial !

Life has more joy to give than to quarrel about somebody else's opinions.

[zoot]

I dont think it is elitism but rather you settle in an area, get to know it enjoy it and think that there is nowhere else like that. You generally dont know much about other areas unless you work there, know people who live there or have some specific connection with the area so everything else is he said she said type of knowledge. So you go where you have knowledge of and you perpetuate that knowledge - then someone else comes along says I live somewhere else and it is great and that opens up a whole new area.

I think it is difficult coming from South Africa where there are distinct areas where you wouldnt want to live whereas here some of the not so nice areas are actually comparatively speaking OK and certainly suitable for when you first arrive with Rands and need to get somewhere cheaper to live whilst you get your head around where will suit your needs.

[Tracy]

...I have this locally from Aussies who "know" the place. Where I live, the COPS (!) call it Beirut!

What a joke.

You have to see a place for yourself and make your own mind up; we all have different perceptions and perhaps we should be conscious of our comments influencing people too much when they arrive here knowing nothing of so many things; it happened to me too.

[Riekie]

I can see how the perception could be that there's a bunch of snobs on the forum who would only live in certain areas, but the questions on where to live mostly come from families with children wanting to know the best areas for schools, child friendly neighbourhood and facilities for families etc. - the typical suburbia. So, people would recommend areas which are better for families and advise about the ones which may be less suitable. Sydney Southwest is famous for all the wrong reasons - car hoons, socio-economic problems, child abuse, alcoholism, assaults, robberies etc. Now that being said does not mean that anyone thinks they're better, but it is a case of "where do I want my kids to grow up?"

Just to demonstrate, the crime rankings between Campbelltown (In the Heart of SouthWest Sydney) and Castle Hill (In the heart of Hills District) - the rankings are out of the possible 140 Suburbs in Sydney

Non-Domestic Assualt

Campbelltown 33rd, Castle Hill 132nd

Domestic Assault

Campbelltown 17th, Castle Hill 124th

Motor Vehicle Theft

Campelltown 10th, Castle Hill 120th

Harrassment/Threatening Behaviour

Campbelltown 7th, Castle Hill 119th

Sexual Offences

Campbelltown 47th, Caslte Hill 136th

Transport Offences (Hooning, Speeding, Drink Driving etc.)

Campbelltown 5th, Castle Hill 86th

Break & Enter into a House

Campbelltown 23rd, Castle Hill 124th

Stealing from Retail Stores

Campbelltown 22nd, Castle Hill 62nd

Malicious Damage to Property

Campbelltown 28th, Castle Hill 134th

Receiving/Handling Stolen Goods

Campbelltown 16th, Castle Hill 120th

Weapon Offences

Campbelltown 48th, Castle Hill 133rd

Breaching AVO's

Campbelltown 31st, Castle Hill 124th

Breaching Bail Conditions

Campbelltown 5th, Castle Hill 103rd

Offensive Language

Campbelltown 66th, Castle Hill 125th

Possesion/Use of Cannabis

Campbelltown 44th, Castle Hill 124th

Sydney Southwest & West is unfortunately also home to the biker gangs and recent incidents of drive-by shootings in which innocent people were the victims of "mistaken identity". Ethnic Crime & Youth Gangs operating mainly in Sydney Southwest has been a public concern since late 1989 and still ongoing.

Sure, there are better suburbs and worse suburbs in all of the above, but when comparing the two areas, it is clear where it would be better to raise a family. It is not a case of being a snob or keeping up with the Jones'.

With that, I'm not saying anyone who lives in either area are better or worse than the alternative, and I'm not saying that you should or should not live in either area. It's comparing apples with apples and making decisions which are right for our own individual requirements/circumstances. If ppl ask for advice on which area to live in, we can only respond with our own opinion and based on what we know about the various areas.

[Vannix]

Well said Riekie

[qiktune]

This is not suppossed to be augumentative and I'd hate for it to head that way....

With all due respect Riekie, you did say elsewhere "West is generally an area to avoid, especially suburbs like Mt Druitt, St Marys, Quackers Hill, Rooty Hill & Parts of Blacktown etc... (Don't confuse this with North-West, which is where the Hills is located with heaps of Saffers and a great family friendly area to live!) South West is also not the best of places to live, especially areas like Macquarie Fields, Merrylands, Granville, Auburn, Punchbowl etc..."

Re the statistics you posted - unless coupled with the name of the board/institution that did that research it's pretty pointless as unfortunately everywhere in the world this kind of number crunching is done by one entity or another and it's always to serve an agenda.

"biker gangs"? the same ones involved in the shooting at Sydney Airport? I better avoid that place too from now on.

"Ethnic Crime and Youth gangs"? Something you're just as likely to see on George St in the middle of Sydney on a saturday night. I suppose if you look for it you'd see it happening at the opera House, the Rocks and Circular Quay as well.

"car hoons, socio-economic problems, child abuse, alcoholism, assaults, robberies"? The socio-economic problems aside, most of these can be witnessed on any given weekend ( some weeknights ) at Castle Hill Tavern, Ettamogah Pub ( a "family friendly" eatery/pub in Rouse Hill ), The Mean Fiddler ( Rouse Hill ) and a good number of the clientele are locals....hardly Desperate Housewives. These aren't from statistics, I've been there and witnessed it on several occasions.

I think people coming to this board for information on suburbs of Sydney should be presented with more rounded opinions is what I'm trying to say. I'm sure some of you have been to Camden and surrounds...you must have, so why aren't those ever suggested? Harrington Park ( where I live ) property prices are on par with Bella Vista but the difference is our blocks are much larger....though I am surrounded by the same McMansions as Castle Hill, etc.

Our kids can walk the streets quite freely because EVERY neighbour is watching...I don't see that in areas like Beaumont Hills, everyone seems much more insular.

Like I said, not trying to start something, I just think that we should offer up more information to whomever is asking....if some guy from Belhar in CT wants to bring his family out for a better future, he's told to go live in the Hills and he follows this information without doing diligent homework, how long will he last before he's broke?

[Riekie]

The facts I used in my previous post are from the NSW Attorney General & Justice Department and NSW Bureau of Crime statistics and research - I would guess they won't be doing any number crunching.

As I've said - there are worse and better suburbs, and that living in either does not make you a better or worse person, but the two areas in (your) question was the Hills and The West/SouthWest, therefor my referal to these two areas only.

To put things into perspective for the wholeSydney area then:

The top 10 Crime Suburbs in Sydney

Bankstown

Blacktown

Campbelltown

Fairfield

Liverpool

Newcastle

Parramatta

Penrith

Sydney City

Wollongong

The top Gun Crime Suburbs (which includes drive-by shootings and armed robberies):

Fairfield

Bankstown

Sydney City

Liverpool

Blacktown

Parramatta

Auburn

Canterbury

Campbelltown

Holroyd

Penrith

Rockdale

Marrickville

Randwick

Leichardt

If I put something in writing as fact, I'm sure of my facts. (I don't get if off wikipedia or yahoo answers - I do proper research from reputable sources).

In my previous response, I was not giving my personal opinion relating to the comparison, so a more "rounded opinion" would take it from fact to opinion, defeating the object of taking personal opinions out of it.

As I have said and I'm saying it again - it is about each person's individual needs and what their personal circumstances are - if they want child friendly family living, then yes, in my personal opinion, and based on facts, the Hills would be better than the SouthWest/West.

Sydney City is on both lists, but we love going to the city and are thinking of relocating to the city next year as our personal circumstances have changed and we no longer require "child friendly family living". We love the vibe of the city and I have personally never felt unsafe there - day or night.

I have worked in Parramatta - also a suburb on both lists. Although I never felt "unsafe" there, it is not a place where I would want to raise small children : drunk people, verbally abusive people, hoons, and human excrement (yes, I have a photo of it on the stairs of the carpark, and I took it myself, so no photoshop). I have personally witnessed many arrests of drug dealers, offensive behaviour, stealing... That said, I love the culture, the food, the markets and diversity. Standing alone on a street corner waiting for a lift late at night I did not even look over my shoulder - I felt perfectly safe.

I have been to quite a few of these suburbs and although I haven't been to all of them, there is not a single suburb in Sydney where I would not want to go (maybe I'll change my mind after being to them - you never know)

In relation to the youth gangs & ethnic crime being most active in the Southwest: this is a fact, not personal opinion. (University of UTS & Anti-Discrimination Board of NSW). Yes, it also occurs in other areas (like everything else) but it is MOSTLY concentrated in SouthWest Sydney.

Unfortunately, personal opinion does not change the facts, so I can not change the figures to make a suburb look better or worse - it is what it is. It would be up to the individual to decide where they want to live, where they want to work and where they want to dine or shop. Obvioulsy everyone should be dilligent in their research about immigration, which inlcudes where to live. On this forum we mostly share from our personal experiences and base repsonses for the most part on personal opinion. I would not make a life changing decision on a single post on an internet forum - If I do, then I'm the fool.

PS: Missed the bit on the biker gangs. There were 80 drive-by shootings in Fairfield alone in the last 6 years, making it quite a bit more "dangerous" than Sydney airport. I've been to both Fairfield and Sydney Airport and I'll go to both again. Will I raise my kids there? No. (To add my personal opinion to fact).

[qiktune]

I don't know anything about the Attorney General's Office but rest assured that numbers are indeed crunched at the Bureau of Crime Statistics!

My opinion on Sydney's west? After the stint at Villawood we moved to Liverpool and it was great....still is. Would I let kids play out on the street and feel at ease with it? No. But I wouldn't let them in Ryde, St Ives or Drummoyne either.

My first 9 years of marriage was spent in the Penrith area....same again. Note that I would have no issue in living in either of these areas again nor would I have issue with raising kids there. There are some terrific schools and Penrith in particular has a LOT of open spaces for kids/parents to play and or amuse themselves on weekends.

I applaud that you have all that factual info at hand but aren't people actually wanting "personal opinion" when asking about where to live? They can find all the stats they want online.

All of those drive-by shooting incidents are, from what I can tell, drug related retributions and I haven't spent any time at all looking into them - I don't watch the news nor do I read newspapers.

Here are some recent facts about Castle Hill...

Sept 29 2011 http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-09-29/police-near-fatal-shooting-scene/3038288

Sept 23 2011 http://hills-shire-times.whereilive.com.au/news/story/castle-hill-drug-lab-uncovered/

March 29 2011 http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/29/3176440.htm?site=sydney

date unknown http://dinosmc.com/news/banditsch.htm

YIKES!!! They're moving in....there goes the neighbourhood!

Seriously though....your arguments are all valid and though I don't neccesarily agree with everything said perhaps we should not "allude" to staying away from certain areas as they're not good for raising kids. Cecil Hills ( Liverpool ), Glenmore Park ( Penrith ), Mt Annan & Currans Hill ( Campbelltown ) are GREAT places for young families.....maybe just not yours.

[Donovan83]

Are there any shantytowns to go live in?

[qiktune]

Are there any shantytowns to go live in?

[qiktune]

BTW dono, re your experience in Parramatta...good for you. I've never lived there but I've spent a couple of weeks at a time there and I loved the cafe lifestyle. Some friends in Leichhardt refer to it as the "new centre of Sydney".

[Riekie]

I applaud that you have all that factual info at hand but aren't people actually wanting "personal opinion" when asking about where to live? They can find all the stats they want online.

Here are some recent facts about Castle Hill... YIKES!!! They're moving in....there goes the neighbourhood!

...( Campbelltown ) are GREAT places for young families.....maybe just not yours.

Your original "complaint" about my original post was that my personal opinion was an indication of a snobish elitist forum community who only want to live on the right side of the tracks. I quoted the statistics to demonstrate that my personal opinion was not based on a snobish elitist agenda but on fact. Then you questioned the validity of the facts, so I provided you with my sources. Now you have a problem that I used facts & statistics..... Honestly, I'm trying my best here - do you even know what you want?

You may find 3 articles on Castle Hill and I can find you ten times that on areas in the SouthWest if I wanted to be petty. Castle Hill (and with that The Hills District) is still way down lower on the crime ratings than Southwest, no matter how you look at it, and does not even come close to any list of crimes. If you read my post, you will see that I said many times that there were worse and better areas, so it is not about the Hills being utopia with singing angels and bunny rabbits, and the Southwest/West being the worst place on earth. I made the comparison because you questioned my intentions behind my 2008 post as being snobish and elitist, suggesting that it is all about the biggest house in the best suburb and that the forumites who rave about life in the Hills are only trying to live it up to the Jones'. It has nothing to do with a house or a car or being better than people who live in other areas - it is about child friendly, family friendly places to live of which there are plenty in Sydney and allover Australia. The reason why The Hills get so much hoohaa is because there are so many forumites who live there and obviously they are all sharing from their experience - it is not to the exclusion of everyone else who do not live in The Hills. I don't know how I could put it in any other words to make it clearer: it is not about a big house - it was never to start with. YOU made it about that.

I personally (you asked for personal opinion) would not raise my children in Campbelltown, so yes, it would not have been the perfect place for us. Coincidentally Fairfield Highschool is the worst public school for bullying in all of NSW (sorry, another statistic ) - another reason why I would not want my kids there. I personally would not want to live or raise my kids in a high crime area (again, my personal opinion). How do I know which areas are high crime? Unfortunately I can not go on personal opinion for that one, so I look at the facts. Therefore, as a result of my fact based personal opinion, I choose to live in The Hills. Does that make me a snob? I don't think so.

With this I will conclude my contributions to this conversation as I don't think it will add any value to a debate which, in my personal opinion, is going nowhere and is pretty much useless. May we agree to disagree and leave it at that.

[qiktune]

There was no "complaint".

No I didn't question the validity of all teh facts...just those of the Bureau of Crime Statistics - I stated that.

I actually DO know what I want but it seems to have gone over your head in this thread. How about rather than tell people to avoid certain areas, either spend some time there yourself and in so doing make an informed decision based on what you learned rather than googled statistics OR offer them something along the lines of "I don't go west or southwest much because it's not for me but by all means get in touch with other forum members who could better advise you of the areas in question".

I DID read your posts...you're not understanding mine.

Err yep, whatever you want to do.

[vuilbaard]

Standing alone on a street corner waiting for a lift late at night . . .

Uhm, what exactly is it that you do?

Sorry, way off topic, but just couldn't resist to ask

[Donovan83]

I quite liked Paramatta... it was quite pleasant. My parents loved it there... they liked the rough edginess that it has

Also... let's not fight

[Eva]

I think this thread should have been posted under "Communities" "Sydney" because it has nothing to do with any other areas in Australia... The title is confusing because it is not "elitism" on the Forum but "elitism" in Sydney.

qiktune, it is great that you are sharing your opinion on the areas you have knowledge/experience of, but what Riekie says is true, we can all only offer advice based on OUR experiences!

So if you wanted to know which areas are better to live in/raise kids in Toowoomba I would give MY opinion and probably be considered elitist!

We all contribute here to try and be helpful and can only do it in our own way....

[Eva]

"Standing alone on a street corner waiting for a lift late at night . . ."

Uhm, what exactly is it that you do?

Sorry, way off topic, but just couldn't resist to ask

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!

[Riekie]

Uhm, what exactly is it that you do?

Sorry, way off topic, but just couldn't resist to ask

"Standing alone on a street corner waiting for a lift late at night . .

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!

Girls nite out... the rest of the girls had to catch the next train and I was waiting for hubby to pick me up.