The end of an adventure

[MichaelvdBerg]

Hi everyone,

Some forumites might remember me as someone that jumped onto the forum, got involved and within a few months got myself into Australia. I would like to express my thanks to everyone on this forum for sharing their experiences and their advice and would hereby like to plow back a bit of experience for others to have a think about.

I have decided that I am going to return to my father-land and persue a life there. Many may be wondering why and what could possibly the reasons but at the end of the day, everyone's situation is different and everyone have different priorities.

I came over to Australia in the beginning of July 2008 and started my Ozzie learning-curve by my lonesome to see what a possible future here could be like. I made some really lovely friend (a whole bunch actually being Aussies) and can honestly look upon this time favourably and, not having any regrets, smile. Understanding that a lot of people are sharpening their teeth from all over the world to get in Australia, I found it quite ironic that upon the verge of receiving my PR, I am actually not going to use it and the plan is to come over and activate it and then about 5 years later come over again and do a 3 month contract to qualify for a resident return visa..

The main reason for my decision is that my career is a very important thing for me at this stage. I am 28 turning 29 early next year and at that stage where I need to sprint to move up in the ranks. I have been able to do that quite comfortably in SA (BEE and all) but slagged a bit down over here in Aus. Things work differently here. I have found that the hierarchies of the companies to be strange as they have a whole different management style as what I am use to in SA.

What gets to me is the fact that Australia does not really have a culture that believe in financially rewarding hard workers by, for instance, incentives or paying bonusses (yes some of you might be lucky). I'm in the IT industry and have many friends and peers all of whom work for different companies and all over Australia. Not a single one of them have ever been financially rewarded for a job well done. In SA, I never not had a 13th cheque.

I know some people might think that I am knit-picking but trust me, our industry has long and hard hours (even after hours you will always need to read books to stay up with the technology) and it is nice to be rewarded with more than just a couple of 'Pure Blondes' on a Friday afternoon. I have also found the tall-poppy syndrome and never truly understood it till about a few months down the line. I have experienced it where most every company I've worked at/dealt with have a fairly flat hierarchy. This means that the next level for you to pretty much grow into, is your boss' position. I have heard a Brit telling me that if you come over to Aus as a 'train driver', you will always be a 'train driver'. I asked him why and his reply was that life is a lot about who you know and not what you know but it is even more so in Australia. I got away from the issue a little when I did contracting (wangled something even though I was on a 457) and started earning a salary that few people my age gets...still I felt that I will have to have a working wife before I could afford a house lol so I guess I will have to sort that out sometime soon

Right before my decision to go home, I received an offer at a very good and reputable construction company for a leadership role, but with less money than I had when I started in Australia (pm me if anyone might be interested - SharePoint Developers) but the whole concept of growing into a leadership position was being sold to me without success. I am use to where there is more responsibility, there is greater remuneration.

As you might be reading this you will get an idea that I am quite focused on career-growth at the moment. Aus taught me some great stuff but it is now time to switch to the next gear. If I can advise someone who is considering leaving a really good job behind, think carefully...Australia is an expensive country and it is difficult to make your way through the thick middle class they have here.

The flip-side of the coin is that Aus is a safe place so weigh up what you will pay for safety...I once heard someone on this forum say that they would rather live in a card-board box in Aus than in a mansion in SA...all I say is, think carefully..talk is cheap Climb the ladder as high as possible but make sure you can still jump accross to the Aussie ladder...

My future plans are to get started in SA, buy a little housey and get married to my girlfriend at the end of 2010. Perhaps one day I might be asking some newbie questions on this forum again but I pray to God that the time doesn't come because I love SA very very much.

Thanks again to everyone over here..your presence has made life over here much better than you think..

Bye for now

Michael

[Eva]

All the best for your future, Michael....

And please pop in and let us know how things work out.

[Gizmo]

I am a little surprised at your experience. Both Hubby and I work in different industries and our experience has been totally different. Hubby is in Engineering and I work in Architecture and Planning. At both our companies there are incentive bonuses and all the little bells and whistles. It goes from the large-end scale bonuses right down to small things, like if a client gives good feedback, the company gives you a dinner voucher to a good restaurant and movie tickets.

Systems, methods and ways of doing things here are different, but not impossible to learn. What I would say is that there is a lot more "competence" here than I experienced in SA and competition if therefore much higher. In SA, it was easy to be considered "really good" in your company - here, everybody is "really good" and people work hard.

Having said that, I am a "back room worker" type by choice - I am not an ambitious corporate climber, and don't put myself forward. I just like to work on my designs with relative autonomy . My experience here is that to get sent up the ladder - you don't need to "sell" yourself - the company is constantly evaluating peoples roles and abilities and promotes people not based on how long you have been in the country, or how long you have been in the company, or how well you can talk the talk (bullshit), your progress is based on raw ability. Corporate climbing in my experience here is easy - you don't need to be your own personal cheerleeder, you just need to be able to do the job well.

As for the train driver remaining a train driver - again, my experience is totally different. I have degrees in Architecture and Landscape Architecture. Recently I have been working with our company's planning department and have found I am really interested in Urban design. I didn't even have to ask - the director saw my interest and has been putting me on all the new projects with an Urban Design component. Moreover, they have offered that if I wish to do an Urban Design course next year at the university, they will sponsor me.

Honestly, I think that work experience are not based on the country you are in, it is based on the company you work for. There are good and bad companies all over the world and there are no "set ways" a company operates based on the country - it differs greatly. Some companies for example will offer great maternity benefits, others will offer you massages on Fridays and fruit baskets on Mondays. Some companies offer you nothing other than your salary. It is like that in Australia and in SA.

I am sorry you didn't have the best work experience here - but on the bright side, at least now you can put on your CV that you have international experience.

Good luck with your new job back in SA - hope it turns out to be a fantastic opportunity.

[Nats123]

Good Luck Michael!

Yeah I must say I am too in IT and have been working here for 2 years now and can relate top what you are saying fully.

Everyone has to take the decision that is going to work for them and I wish you good luck!

Nats

[Pippa]

Hi Michael,

Oh my word… I am so sorry (and happy for you) to hear about your decision of moving back to SA, but I do respect your decision. You won't believe how many people I heard of who is returning to SA in the next few months ! What is going on?!

Personally, I had a lot of trouble accepting Australia as my new home initially, but after about 14 months, I started to be more content and now I am really enjoying it . It really depends on what your priorities in life are…

It is rather unfortunate that you haven’t given yourself some more time in Australia, but you are the most important person in your life and if SA is the place where you want to live, get married and have a family, then no one can argue with that.

I do believe that you have to make a mind shift about money and status if you decide to move and stay in Australia. Making it through the “thick middle class†in Australia is not our main priority. If your main concern is money and status, SA is probably a better option, but if quality of life and safety is of importance to you and you can be content to be middle class, then I think Australia is a good option. In the end, it is all about personal choice and personal priorities.

Good luck with your plans and the journey back to South Africa. Enjoy our mother country and stay safe.

All the best,

Pippa! X

PS.

Honestly, I think that work experience are not based on the country you are in, it is based on the company you work for.

Well said Gizmo!

[funtobeaussiechick]

I am a little surprised at your experience. Both Hubby and I work in different industries and our experience has been totally different. Hubby is in Engineering and I work in Architecture and Planning. At both our companies there are incentive bonuses and all the little bells and whistles. It goes from the large-end scale bonuses right down to small things, like if a client gives good feedback, the company gives you a dinner voucher to a good restaurant and movie tickets.

Systems, methods and ways of doing things here are different, but not impossible to learn. What I would say is that there is a lot more "competence" here than I experienced in SA and competition if therefore much higher. In SA, it was easy to be considered "really good" in your company - here, everybody is "really good" and people work hard.

Having said that, I am a "back room worker" type by choice - I am not an ambitious corporate climber, and don't put myself forward. I just like to work on my designs with relative autonomy . My experience here is that to get sent up the ladder - you don't need to "sell" yourself - the company is constantly evaluating peoples roles and abilities and promotes people not based on how long you have been in the country, or how long you have been in the company, or how well you can talk the talk (bullshit), your progress is based on raw ability. Corporate climbing in my experience here is easy - you don't need to be your own personal cheerleeder, you just need to be able to do the job well.

As for the train driver remaining a train driver - again, my experience is totally different. I have degrees in Architecture and Landscape Architecture. Recently I have been working with our company's planning department and have found I am really interested in Urban design. I didn't even have to ask - the director saw my interest and has been putting me on all the new projects with an Urban Design component. Moreover, they have offered that if I wish to do an Urban Design course next year at the university, they will sponsor me.

Honestly, I think that work experience are not based on the country you are in, it is based on the company you work for. There are good and bad companies all over the world and there are no "set ways" a company operates based on the country - it differs greatly. Some companies for example will offer great maternity benefits, others will offer you massages on Fridays and fruit baskets on Mondays. Some companies offer you nothing other than your salary. It is like that in Australia and in SA.

I am sorry you didn't have the best work experience here - but on the bright side, at least now you can put on your CV that you have international experience.

Good luck with your new job back in SA - hope it turns out to be a fantastic opportunity.

so true what you say about Ozzie competence. Here most people have been to Tafe of Uni. Lots of South Africans have made it big in corporate terms so I really believe the opportunities exist. Just do not expect it immediately. Hubby works for a great co and you can go as far as you want to. It is up to you. Same as people told me how hard it is to start a business, bollocks. In SA I struggled with everything from trying to get a CC registration, here I got my ABN number over the phone! Talk about more honesty and integrity in business as well. In SA I feel we are constantly having to share our hard earned wealth in the form of taxes, beggars, insurance premiums, high security costs, corruption, banking costs, poverty wherever you look, useless staff who can hardly read or write but expect handouts, BBBEEE. What a pleasure to deal with competent people and the UNI here not being on a high level? huh? gosh not my experience at all!. Not all Unis are good I know but lots of Oz unis in the top 200 so you figure. I have found people in IT to be really competent. Anyhow I know it is hard to fit in but if you really try hard Oz will welcome you and you will be paid what you are worth. Stuch as a train driver forever? You know why a train driver is a a train driver forever? He has no furthar inclination. Same goes for the guys who dig holes in the road in SA or are train drivers in SA. Same type of mentality. Use it or lose it! What abouth the SA lady who was a bank teller and now is the Chief exec? Seems she did not stay a bank teller now did she

[Joeemm]

Hi Michael

Like everyone else I respect your decision, I know it could not have been easy. We all have diff. priorities at different times in our lives. But as I've told other people going back, "Get the PR first". I'm sure you have contact with people in ZA, and have some idea of the circumstances you'll be going back to. For myself, wanting to build a future for my son, Australia is the place for us by all the accounts I'm hearing from ZA is no place to raise children.

Ok enough of that, good luck for the future journey mate ;-)

[Feetjie]

Ai Michael - kan nie glo jy gaan nou al so gou terug nie!!! Maar ons verstaan!!!! Volg jou hart!

[elizes]

Good Luck Michael! We hope you will be blessed wherever you are!

[Michele R]

If anything, I want people to feel that the entire world can be your home....

Love that! I so agree, the world is a wonderful place.

Good luck with the interviews! Let us know how they go!

[funtobeaussiechick]

Hi Michele

Thanks for that. I am blessed with being in an industry that still have a lot of work available. I have quite a few interviews lined up for when I return and will get cracking on that early next year. The recession is also terrible here and especially in Brisbane...the community is small here but I have still managed to see movement in a positive direction.

I will keep you updated. If anything, I want people to feel that the entire world can be your home....

It funny you know we came to Oz 2003 validated our visa back to SA came in 2005 stayed for a while moved back to SA. 2008 finally packed up an moved here as we had to, our visa was running out. Done our time got our citizenship visiting SA soon, who knows? Yes we love SA too but fact is when you been in Oz so short you really cannot make a career. My Biz in Oz is only just starting to increase slowly. Best of luck mate. Hope you have your eyes wide open as yes SA is beautiful, fantastic and all but remember why you left in the first place. Not trying to put you off but remember looking over the shoulder all the time. You may become rich quicker in SA but you can also die quicker too. Remember should you be (God forbid) shot and your bills run over a million rand as what happened to a friend of mine, the best medical aid in SA which he had did not pay all his bills. We are talking reality now. Fortunately he is a rich man and he was able to pay.But hey let us be upbeat 2010 is around the corner and lots of moola to be made. As long as you are sure you can go back. Do not wake up one day and say should have or could have as you do not get 100's of chances in life. Do the hard yards and you will be rewarded. Nobody says you have to live in oz forever, just get the kangaroo passport, you never know.

I know Oz can be bland, boring, same old, same old, difficult getting a specialist, some crappy schools,sameness no richness in vibe, colourless unsmiling people, fat blobs, mcdonalds culture,bogans, drinking culture, hoons, bashings, conformity, restaurant blandness, no SA Woolies, no proper biltong, cost of ordinary items like nuts and bolts etc. but hey positives, free schooling, medicare, bulk billing no paying when seeing a doc, much less crime, freedom of movement being able to walk, run wherever whenever, no electric fences, no armed response, almost zilch murder, no traffic light sellers, beggars etc, proper police force, councils that work properly, public transport, electricity that works,broadband,Centrelink family assistance, cheap insurance, being able to sleep at night and not barricade yourself in jail. My friend when you are single or do not have kids hey you can live wherever, whenever but once you have children your protective mode comes in so remember what I tell you. Kids change your whole outlook so make lots of money in SA and make a plan to get you Ozzie PR/passport. It will be worth it in the end. Cheers, and keep in touch, SA is a beautiful, beautiful country, i cannot wait to visit

[Lyn]

Want to wish you all the best on your return to your beloved S Africa. You have missed that soil - and I pray that you find happiness and a super job too. I understand about the 13th cheque, and bonuses etc - long hours, hubby in engineering over a year now - nothing ! Oh, but he did find a new cad person to work at the company and they rewarded him with $2 000,00 ! We'll have to keep finding staff it seems !!

Good luck - Keep us posted every once in awhile ?

[benp]

Want to wish you all the best on your return to your beloved S Africa. You have missed that soil - and I pray that you find happiness and a super job too. I understand about the 13th cheque, and bonuses etc - long hours, hubby in engineering over a year now - nothing ! Oh, but he did find a new cad person to work at the company and they rewarded him with $2 000,00 ! We'll have to keep finding staff it seems !!

Good luck - Keep us posted every once in awhile ?

A bit off topic perhaps, but talking about bonuses, in my case just not having to pay R7000 extra every month in medical aid, security, school fees, insurance, satellite tracking cost, etc etc is a bonus enough. So, if I get parity pay in Aus for the same work I do here, I'm already scoring R56k p/a,so there's my 'hidden' bonus.

[Emille]

all the best. hope everything works out for you

e

[Netta]

Ek dink dis great dat jy jou hart volg. Ons het ook vir amper 4 jaar in die UK gewoon toe ons 22 - 26 was, terug gekom en nou oppad Aus toe (vir minstens 4 jaar, en wie weet, dan dalk weer terug SA toe daarna). Ek dink solank mens nie kinders het nie kan jy trek soveel as wat jy wil. Geniet elke oomblik terug in SA en by ou vriende en familie!

[MichaelvdBerg]

so true what you say about Ozzie competence. Here most people have been to Tafe of Uni. Lots of South Africans have made it big in corporate terms so I really believe the opportunities exist. Just do not expect it immediately. Hubby works for a great co and you can go as far as you want to. It is up to you. Same as people told me how hard it is to start a business, bollocks. In SA I struggled with everything from trying to get a CC registration, here I got my ABN number over the phone! Talk about more honesty and integrity in business as well. In SA I feel we are constantly having to share our hard earned wealth in the form of taxes, beggars, insurance premiums, high security costs, corruption, banking costs, poverty wherever you look, useless staff who can hardly read or write but expect handouts, BBBEEE. What a pleasure to deal with competent people and the UNI here not being on a high level? huh? gosh not my experience at all!. Not all Unis are good I know but lots of Oz unis in the top 200 so you figure. I have found people in IT to be really competent. Anyhow I know it is hard to fit in but if you really try hard Oz will welcome you and you will be paid what you are worth. Stuch as a train driver forever? You know why a train driver is a a train driver forever? He has no furthar inclination. Same goes for the guys who dig holes in the road in SA or are train drivers in SA. Same type of mentality. Use it or lose it! What abouth the SA lady who was a bank teller and now is the Chief exec? Seems she did not stay a bank teller now did she

Sorry funtobeaussiechick, I cannot disagree more with your statement about the 'you are paid what you are worth'. Without using myself as an example, I have a swiss friend who is honestly one of the best peers I have ever worked with and he has been treated like a golden goose stuck in a crappy cage like many people I know. It makes short-sighted business sense to keep good staff on lower salaries as your value you draw from them is very high...don't tell me this is new to you as I have seen it all over the world (like the british do with the East-Europeans). They are constantly reminded of 'improving english' even though they have better written english than most aussies but it is a form of not paying someone what they are worth in order to make more money. If you want, I can give you 4 other examples...perhaps it is more accurate for me to say that the IT industry in Australia is not great to work in....and I am yet to meet a person that has gained a bonus or incentive in the IT industry without being an exec....

I am happy for you and your husband's success though. That is awesome!

[MichaelvdBerg]

Hi Michael.

Follow your heart and everything else will fall in place. I wish you everything of the best in SA. Thank you for opening your home to me when I needed it, hopefully one day we will get to meet.

Please stay in touch and enjoy your Christmas in Venezuela. (spelling).

Cheers, Jill and Pierre.

Thank you Jill,

Also thanks to everyone's best wishes!! I won't stop posting some stuff on this site as even if I am coming back, my posts might help someone think about their situation and make the right decision for them.

The last thing I wanted to do was to convince anyone about going back to SA or that life is better there or whatever. For me it has been a mixture of good and bad but in the end, with all the crime, murders etc etc, SA still called louder. There are a lot of people fighting the good fight there and all I ask is to keep praying and wish SA well.

Bye for now..

M

[sysie]

Hi Michael, we share a few things... My surname is also van den Berg, I am 30 years young and in IT ( unified communications) . I have to say that I have found the IT market here very welcoming and exciting. I come from working for a big company in JHB (Accenture) really loved it there and is now working for KPMG in Melbourne. Here is some of my findings:

I get the impression that Australian firms are less eager to adopt new technologies just for the sake of having the latest gadgets. They put allot of effort in to make technology work and stick to it till they are convinced moving to a newer / different solution will be beneficial. I agree with this approach.

I find that the technologies used really work, loads of testing goes into the design and planning phases and this leads to robust, available and secure IT solutions. It does however slows down the technology adoption rate.

I find the leadership structure very efficient ( I am not a manager) and the roles and responsibilities is clear and well defined.

I am the only South African (that I know of ) in the office but have really been welcomed in the office and although I struggle a bit with the Aussie humor and jokes... Really enjoy being in the office. The benefit structure is appealing and they really promote a balanced work/ life environment. I have not been around long enough to start thinking about promotions and bonuses but my focus now is making my mark and showing them what I've got.

For me.... Now... I like it here...life,work,play everything..

Good luck with your move, I can imagine it is a difficult one... Every now and again I wonder if I will go back but then I think " I will miss Melbourne too much " ;-) time will tell..

My 2c

[funtobeaussiechick]

Sorry funtobeaussiechick, I cannot disagree more with your statement about the 'you are paid what you are worth'. Without using myself as an example, I have a swiss friend who is honestly one of the best peers I have ever worked with and he has been treated like a golden goose stuck in a crappy cage like many people I know. It makes short-sighted business sense to keep good staff on lower salaries as your value you draw from them is very high...don't tell me this is new to you as I have seen it all over the world (like the british do with the East-Europeans). They are constantly reminded of 'improving english' even though they have better written english than most aussies but it is a form of not paying someone what they are worth in order to make more money. If you want, I can give you 4 other examples...perhaps it is more accurate for me to say that the IT industry in Australia is not great to work in....and I am yet to meet a person that has gained a bonus or incentive in the IT industry without being an exec....

I am happy for you and your husband's success though. That is awesome!

Every company will pay you as little as possible, that does not mean that you cannot if you have the right skills move your way if there are not enough people with your skills. My husband really is doing well and much better than he ever did in SA, so I guess it is just that he must have got 'lucky'. Anyhow I will not argue about the IT industry as we are not in it. I also have a friend in WA who started a biz 2 years ago and really it was an uphill battle, they do fencing etc.. Sure he has had so many setbacks and I guess he will have set himself back by 5 years but I spoke to him a couple of days ago and to his brother in SA who visited him. He has exceeded all expectations once he got round all the red tape. He has just bought a beautiful double story house and yes he is making it against all the odds. I reckon you can make it anywhere given the right attitude and yes sometimes a bit of luck in the mix. SA has plenty of opportunities and you are fortunate to have had something to carry on there. Some of us come here without anything and have to make it from zero, zilch, nothing. So great that you have so much to go back to. Some of us do not and we are going to make it here.

[MichaelvdBerg]

Thanks again for all the replies.

I am happy for every success story that I hear over in Oz and wish that on every Saffa in Oz. In the end, it is what makes you happy and after considering my choices for some time now, I've decided that Oz is not the right place for me at the moment. Perhaps in the future when I have a little family of my own.

Cheers

M

[Enrica]

Hey Michael , best of luck back in SA. Thanks for sharing with us in the past, heres wishing you all the best Mate.

Cheers

Enrica

[Sharese]

Good luck with your journey... I hope everything works out for you in the end!

[Cyberdeth]

Whhhaaatt you got a 13th cheque in IT ?!?!?! hehehe, the last time i got that was when I worked for a corporation in 2003. I vowed never to work for a corporation again. I've been contracting the last 2 years, so going up the ranks, doesn't really bother me. As far as reward for hard work goes, contracting solves that too. But to each his own. I just find that through contracting I learn sooo much more. Good luck on your ventures.

[Chocolate]

Thanks for your thoughts Michael,

And best of luck back in SA!

Perhaps when "little Michaels" (hehehe ;-)) come along,

you may reconsider Oz, but for the mean time,

as you say, we all have to make our own decisions!

All the best,

Chocolate

[MichaelvdBerg]

Contracting is really good yeah...that is why I have been doing it .. can't wait to start doing in SA

[Stix]

Good luck mate,

I was on the verge of going back a couple of months ago, but decided to stay and I think I made the right decision (things are looking up).

Just one comment, I don't think you can come back in 5 years, do a 3 month contract, get a RRV and return to South Africa. Or rather, if you get an RRV, it will be valid for a very short period of time. Or are you planning to come back in 5 years and stay here?