Belated introduction

[Melrie]

I realised today that I never formally introduced myself on this forum because when I first joined I only intended to lurk as I am in NZ and assumed this forum is for people in Aus. However, I've since noticed that those of us in NZ may participate (where possible I guess, as I believe NZ is rather different from Aus in certain important ways) and that the forum admin didn't feel it's necessary to create a subforum for South Africans in NZ. So I added the following to my profile ("about me") and thought I will copy and paste it here:

Went to NZ with OH in 2004. OH had citizenship from being out there in the 90's but then went back to RSA hoping for a better future post apartheid and sponsored me toward PR in NZ when we left RSA. OH had a good job offer in hand when we went and we had to move pretty quickly to sell up in RSA and go out to NZ in order to make the starting date of OH's job.

I couldn't find a proper job (no "Kiwi experience" and hadn't use my degree (social work) in 7 years prior going to NZ so "getting in" based on that qualification, and with limited opportunity in the town we are based was impossible). So, after my PR was granted (I was issued a 2 year work visa literally within days of applying after we arrived but PR took 10 months) I decided to re-invent myself and go back to University for a different degree. I figured I may not have "Kiwi experience" but then I'll gain a Kiwi qualification instead. Will finish studies end of 2009 - LLB(Hons). While I waited for my PR I worked part time at a high school at a very poor wage helping out with a career development project but I learned about the NZ school education system and more about Kiwis in general so it was worth it to a degree.

So, I'm studying full time (for the first time in my life) and not earning my own income has been immensely challenging for me. I've had to dig deep to accept that, as I have never relied on a partner for financial support before in my life no matter how deep or long term the commitment. Maar so leer mens ... Did some serious soul searching and learned alot about myself and about the emotions that can accompany the process of emigration and immigration.

I've accepted citizenship in NZ in 2008.

Will hopefully re-enter the job market as a rookie when I'm close to 40 ...

I don't like living in NZ but I'm very grateful to be here and for the opportunity to re-invent myself, if that makes sense? If I can, and post recession, I'll probably go to Australia, which honestly has been a country I have dreamed of living in for about 15 years - ever since my first visit there in the early 90's. OH will join me if possible but I will more than likely have to go on my own initially and get back on my feet financially. OH is not in a career that can easily shift but we'll work with what we've got.

PS 99.9% of the time I edit my posts for typos so nothing mysterious there

Edited March 25, 2009 by Melrie

[Mara]

Hi Melrie

Welcome and hope you enjoy yourself here.

Good luck with your law degree, are you planning on practising law once you graduate? If you are and you are hoping to come to Australia to practise law, please remember you have to work in NZ for three years after being admitted to the bar before you can practise in Australia without re-sitting your bar exam. At least those were the rules 10 years ago when we moved to Australia, they may have changed in the interim. My son is a lawyer in Auckland, it was for him that we enquired at the time.

[Lyn]

Hi Melrie, Welcome to the forum - even if its also a little belated.

I just love the way you decided to re-invent yourself. And study further. Always a great move to learn somemore no matter what your age.

I remember in one of your other posts you mentioned not enjoying NZ very much - vasbyt - you at least have the opportunity to get here - you already have NZ citizenship - if I remember correctly to move across it was 5 years in NZ with citizenship ? You seem to have that in order - so its just the big decision once you have completed the degree. Good luck with that - you are an inspiration.

[Tri-nations]

Welcome Melrie. Oh yeah the very important Kiwi experience. Been there done that. We lived in Auckland for just over 4 years. Economics and the cold promt the move accross the Tassie. Currently on the Gold Coast and loving it.

I agree with your view that NZ is quite different from Aus, but we all come from SA and go through the same emotions when we leave there. Except for the masses of information you get heaps of support directly and indirectly on the forum.

I was also a guest for some time, now this has become my "morning paper".

[Melrie]

Thanks for the welcome Mara, Lyn and Tri Nations

Also for the advice Mara. I am currently looking into doing a graduate dip in legal studies at ANU next year which is the equavalent of the articles required over there (NZ does not require articles and hence the 3 years work experience required by Aus probably). As far as I can tell it's a one year diploma and mostly done online with some face-to-face intensives. According to the person who responded to my e-mail the NZ LLB is recognised i.e. the academic side of it - Trans Tasman Agreement etc. But then either 3 years work experience (for a Kiwi) or articles in Aus or this graduate diploma which teaches one to actually "do" law - usually the training is done by senior lawyers I believe, not Uni lecturers.

I am however very interested in working in policy development and naturally this will involve working for the federal government. As noticed elsewhere on this forum, many if not most of the government jobs in Aus require the applicant to be a Aus citizen, let alone permanent resident (well the ones I looked at out of interest). Now, I realise I can apply for Aus citizenship when the time comes, however, as far as I know Australia only allows dual citizenship. As mentioned, I accepted NZ citizenship and I have not formally renounced my RSA citizenship. Hmm ... not sure what to do really. I still have family in RSA and I know for example that I am my parent's only heir and their estate includes a flat (no bond). I think it will be a bit reckless to renounce RSA citizenship (and besides I still have a savings account with ABSA albeit with hardly any money in it) because that would mean no SA ID book etc if I have to go back to sort out things like sell the flat. So ... any opinions on that will be welcomed

Edited March 26, 2009 by Melrie

[Mara]

He Melrie

We have the same background, became NZ citizens, then moved to Australia and became Aus citizens, however, we OFFICIALLY migrated when we left SA. I have never actually told SA that I wish to renounce my citizenship, but they are definitely aware that I have migrated, we also did this because I will inherit from my sister who lives in SA. I have never renewed my SA passport and the last two visits to SA I entered on my Kiwi passport. The next time I will use my Aus passport, then I will have them really confused. I had absolutely no need to hang onto my SA citizenship.

I still have a bank account in SA, although it is blocked. My pension fund pays into it and my sister (who has power of attorney) uses it for various things. With regard to being your parents sole heir, if you have formally migrated, that will not be a problem, however, if you have not, you are not going to be able to remit the funds from their estate to an overseas account. So in light of this it may be better to set that in motion if you have not already done so. Once you are a citizen of another country all you will need is your passport to identify yourself in SA.

If you need further info on this, I can put you in touch with my sister in Jhb, she has it on her fingertips.

[Melrie]

Missed your question Lyn re qualifying for citizenship.

I was still "lucky" to qualify for citizenship after 3 years in NZ with PR. The law changed literally a few months after we arrived in 2004 I think. But as I've also mentioned elsewhere, I never intended to be "one of those" who just "use NZ to get into Aus" but slowly but surely and over the years, I've learned why people do that - including thousands and thousands of NZ born citizens too. Sigh. Not fun to migrate twice ... and maybe I won't. Time will tell.

[Melrie]

Thanks Mara.

I am currently in the process of organising tax clearance certificate from SARS. (Apparently one needs that) However, I have not signed power of attorney over to anyone in RSA because honestly, at the time we left RSA I felt that wasn't necessary. All I still had there was my ABSA savings account. No debt, sold property, cancelled all policies and had my pension pay out and brought it over to NZ. I think I have a few hundred Rand in that account.

What I thought to do, is to formally inform the RSA government that I have accepted citizenship in another country and just to apologise in the covering letter for missing out on the law change in, what was it, 2005? (That RSA citizens should inform the government if they accept citizenship in another country). So I figured that'll do interms of "legitimately" doing business in RSA and I won't renounce my RSA citizenship as long as my mother is still alive and I have to go back there to sort out sale of property etc. But then I wondered about Aus only allowing dual citizenship?

Just to clarify: so you are saying that Aus had no problem with you having citizenship in NZ, RSA AND Aus?

Thanks much!

Edited March 26, 2009 by Melrie

[Mara]

Hi Melrie

No, I have NZ and Aus citizenship, not SA. Hope SA is kind to you, as you are supposed to inform them before you actually receive the citizenship of another country. Have you kept your SA passport current? As that is also a requirement. You have to enter and leave SA on a SA passport if you are still a citizen.

[Melrie]

Ah. OK, so "officially migrating" from RSA means formally renouncing one's citizenship there? I thought those were two different processes.

Yes, my RSA passport is still valid until 2013 and I used it both times when I went back for a visit.

So the only way for me to gain Aus citizenship would be to renounce either my NZ citizenship or my RSA citizenship. Hmm ...

If it were not for the fact of future inheritance I would have gladly renounced my SA citizenship. This I believe has to be formally done i.e. the Australian government needs proof, which will be more than just not having a current SA passport I assume? Thus, one would need some form of formal documentation issued by the RSA government that clearly states that one has renounced one's citizenship there? You (Mara) renounced you citizenship before you actually left RSA then. But then you wouldn't have been able to use your SA passport to leave RSA as it would've been invalid ...? OK, I'm officially confused.

Edit: Ah. OK. How it works now is, that by accepting citizenship in another country, without first gaining permission from the SA government, one automatically loses one's South African citizenship. *shrugs* I believe many, many people accept citizenship in a different country without letting the SA government know and still enter South Africa on their SA passports. This would then appear to be illegal and may be a bit risky? Effectively, one's SA passport is an invalid document then. Of course once those passports expire, and one doesn't have a Returning Resident's Visa in there to prove your status as PR, I guess South African authorities will pick up the fact and will ask how you managed to stay that long in [insert country]. So then they will find out in anyway.

"The Citizenship legislation, effected on 6 October 1995 (Act 88 of 1995) provides for South African citizens to apply to voluntarily renounce their South African Citizenship. To be eligible applicants must have already obtained the citizenship of another country because with effect of the renunciation, the person cannot become a stateless person.

South African citizens who have voluntarily obtained the citizenship of another country after their eighteenth (18th) birthday, without applying and receiving permission to retain their South African citizenship prior to when they obtained their other citizenship, have automatically lost their South African Citizenship from the date they obtained the citizenship of the other country. Such persons consequently need not apply for renunciation."

http://www.sahc.org.au/citizenship/Renunciation.htm

In this respect, the good news is that I should be able to eventually apply for Aus citizenship as I now only have NZ citizenship. Wonder if the Australian Government checks with the SA government whether one is still a citizen, because the SA government doesn't know about those of us that didn't ask for permission and will still have us on their records as citizens surely?! Perhaps people who have recently accepted citizenship in Aus (having gone via NZ) can shed some light?

Edited March 27, 2009 by Melrie

[Mara]

Hi Melrie

Officially emigrating has nothing whatsoever to do with renouncing your citizenship in SA. The officially emigrating part of it is making sure that the Reserve Bank have cleared you 'tax wise' and that they have issued you with a 'number' (or whatever they call it) for your official emigration. Any inherited funds that you will want to move out of SA will need your bank to advise the Reserve Bank that they are wanting to move funds for 'number' so and so. If you have just hopped on a plane and left the country, it will be almost impossible for you to move the inherited money out, without the Reserve Bank 'number'. Hope this part makes more sense now.

With regard to the citizenship. If I remember correctly in NZ the form asked what other country we hold citizenship of, and of course we stated SA. In Aus, we stated NZ, we were never asked to supply proof that we no longer held SA citizenship by Australia. All they wanted from us were our NZ citizenship papers. They obviously knew that we were SA born as we had to supply copies of our SA birth certificates to Australia.

You are not required to be a SA citizen in order to inherit, you can be a citizen of any country and still inherit money from someone living in SA.

Hope this lot is clearer now.

[polly]

Formal immigration: I just let SARS know? Better do that then

[Mara]

Hi Polly, there are some forms that have to be completed, and you need to ensure that your records with the tax office are clear and sorted before you apply to SARS. From what I remember, and forgive me, it is about 15 years ago, it wasn't all that difficult, but then again, my sister just shoved the forms we needed to complete in front of me and said 'fill those out and sign them', which I did, and she then sorted out the rest.

She has been dealing with this kind of thing for the last 25 years, so quite frankly, when we decided to leave the country, it was her advice that we followed!

[Melrie]

Officially emigrating has nothing whatsoever to do with renouncing your citizenship in SA.

Yes, that's what I believe too but I think my two themes/questions got blurred. My fault probably.

The two themes being 1) Can I apply for citizenship in Aus eventually if I had not renounced my citizenship in RSA i.e. do I need to do that as I have NZ citizenship too and Aus only allows dual citizenship 2) Whether I will need RSA citizenship to do "business" e.g. sell real property inherited in RSA.

In a roundabout way, both those questions were answered. Thanks much Mara!

Edited March 28, 2009 by Melrie

[Mara]

Hi Melrie

Glad your questions have been answered, I would however, still send your questions to my sister, just to ensure that everything is in order, as the law is today.

My advice is based on when I left and what I read on this forum and heard from her, since then.