Afrikaans for kids in Australia

[chatterbug]

Hi All,

Wanted to know some of your views in relation to Afrikaans as a spoken language for kids in Austarlia, especially kids of Afrikaans speaking couples. Obviously people will have mixed views but I'd be keen to hear some of these. I know kids of Afrikaans mother tongue speakers assimilate quite quickly and essentially end up speaking English. I see this quite often with friends - the parents yack away in Afr and the kids talk Aussie English. I know there is a pragmatic side to all this since, schooling, friends, peer group/in-group pressures dictate that kids rather need English. Also people argue that since they're here for good what benefit would our kids have to talk Afr?

But what about the more emotive issue of kids not being able to speak Afrikaans, especially if both parents are Afrikaans speaking? Would they not benefit from having the benefit of both languages, or is it too hard? Are we not potentially closing off a rich "history" "potential experience" and "understanding" of the SA culture?(which seems to be quite alive and kicking with the adults in Aus I must say)

Are the any classes, schooling being offered in Aus to enhance the Afrikaans language with kids? If not what chance do our kids really have of talking it well. If I consider myself as an example, have always been Afrikaans but have worked in an English working environment. I however speak Afr to my wife every day. I have had the benefit of 12 years of schooling and Afr parents/family, but even I struggle to keep my language pure. Not that I mind a bit of the mixing of my "tales" but I almost can't converse & write in Afrikaans in my business environment anymore. So i've reverted to writing it more and forcing myself to use it sometimes to think out aloud. I always explain to other people (esp Aussies) that its hard to talk to my wife in English, yes we can and often do it to be polite, but I struggle to love my wife in English. Talking English to her would be like kissing your sister or brother, its a kiss but the passion is not there (well I hope not!)

My wife and I speak both languages very deliciously ( I think, hehe!) and I would consider ourselves to be fully bilingual. We don't have kids yet but I'd be interested on your views on this matter.

BTW: Wat's die Engelse woord vir clutch nou weer?

Cheers

Kletskous

[Caroline]

Hi Chatterbug

I contemplated for a whole 30 min about wether I should answer this question or not but then I decided that I could ad some value.

I don't really know what my view is...but let me share with you what if feels like to be a South African that grew up in another country and that can not speak afrikaans.

I grew up in Norway. I spoke Norwegian (we have 2 'languages': bokmål and nynorsk) to my father, family and everybody else around me. I spoke english to my mother except for when other people were in the room, then we would speak Norewgian. I learnt swedish because we lived close to the Swedish boarder, I can speak danish because it is similar to Norwegian. I can speak Spanish because I went to school in Spain for 2 years and I studied Spanish at university. But I can not speak afrikaans.

When I was 17 years old we came to SA. I had not completed my matric so my parents wanted to send me back to shcool. School would not accept me, my english was 'not good enough' and I couldn't speak a word of afrikaans. No big hassles-life carries on. I went back to Norway to complete A levels. Came back and applied for foreign student exemption and went to varsity. Not really important.

Let me tell you what it feels like to be a South African that can not speak afrikaans:

My mother's family is bilingual. I found it difficult to 'bond' with them. They would chatter a way in english but then switch over to some other strange lingo and all have a good laugh and I didn't know what they were talking about. I liked Durban because there english and Zulu is the language of the day. I can understand most of what is said . Now and again somebody will tell an afrikaans joke. I have learnt that afrikaans is a very expressive language even if I can not completely comprehend.

You see... english, german, french etc etc might be the 'international status quo'. But if you have afrikaans family and afrikaans is part of your culture then you should teach your child afrikaans. I have no contact with my mother's family. Let me be honest... to me they were just a strange bunch of people that spoke another language (even if it was english sometimes ) The culture gap was big but the language barrier was even greater.

Today, after +-15 years in SA, I can 'soeme soe' understand afrikaans if I can see the person's face (maybe it has something to do with facial expressions ) but I can not read and I can not write. I have tried to follow some of the posts here but it is exhausting and I get so confused.

Language is a wonderful tool of communication, think twice before you underestimate it. Besides children are like sponges. I went to school with students that could speak 5-6 languages fluently... so why should some children only speak 1 or 2? And even if they can't read and write perfectly, just to speak it is to have power.

I speak Norwegian to my children, it doesn't matter if they are fluent as long as they comprehend and incorporate They respond in english now a days

[Guest Seoul Sister]

Hi chatterbug,

I have been wondering for a few hours whether I should reply to this. (C, you and I seem to be on the same wavelength). I have very strong views on this, since this is my academic area- not Afrikaans, linguistics. I am going to limit my response to a few points, since I could probably write a book on the topic. If I don't come back with a response to follow-up responses you may get, please know that it is not due to disinterest, it is probably rather to keep your topic and/or myself from the freezer (cool-down box). Now that you have finally joined us, I don't want to be the one to scare you away !!

• Our ability to learn languages is influenced by a number of factors. Genetics, natural ability, interest, motivation, stimuli (external) and others all play a part
  
• Spoken language is made up of sounds. Every language has its own set of sounds, these are not the same as the written language and can be found on phonetics charts
  
• English is a very limited language when it comes to phonetics
  
• From around the 6th month of pregnancy until a baby is 8-12 months their inner ear is shaped. The inner ear and the shape thereof influences our ability to hear different sounds. The more phonetic sounds a baby hears within this time, the easier it will be for that baby to reproduce those sounds once he starts talking. By expanding the array of linguistic sounds a baby hears, we can (up to a point) improve the natural ability of a child to acquire a second and foreign languages
  
• Even though the initial and strongest changes occur very early on, children up to the age of 12 (for pronunciation and accent 16) have a much stronger natural ability to acquire languages than adults have
  
• Children who grow up with languages that have a vast array of sounds, can more easily acquire other languages, whereas children who grow up with phonetically limited languages grow up with a disadvantage.
  
• As example : Portuguese, Greek and Russian all have very wide phonetic ranges. Excluding all other factor of language acquisition statistically ppl who grow up with one of these languages, have a much better chance of learning other languages, since they are already equipped with the sounds.
  
• Children who grow up with only English, for example, statistically have a much smaller chance of naturally acquiring other languages, since they will first have to acquire the new sounds, and then learn the language.
  
• Have you ever seen how Portuguese, Greek and Italian people in South Africa have no problem learning to speak English and sometimes even Afrikaans ? Motivation is a part of it, but the advantage they have because of growing up with a wider phonetic language gives them an edge. The same edge that Caroline is giving her kids, without even knowing it, by exposing them to different sounds and vocabulary.
  
• Have you seen how British ppl who move to Holland/Belgium/Germany struggle to learn the new language ? Their inner ear was probably not exposed to enough different sounds and therefore wasn't developed as well as other European children.
  
• When children are exposed to many languages from an early age, they not only hear the sounds and learn some of the meanings, they often also learn a general attitude toward foreign cultures and languages, which is invaluable in our global society
  
• The Sapphir-Wolf theory teaches us that once a concept in real life is important enough, we will adopt it into our spoken language. So we find that the Eskimos have (I think it was 26) different words for snow, and the Bushman have more than 10 different words for sand/desert. We want to describe what we live/see using language, and so we can tell a lot about a culture from the words it has in the corresponding language. Afrikaans has many words not found in English, often things to describe culture specific elements.
  
• By not teaching your children Afrikaans or any other language you are able to speak, you are depriving them of many different things. (Starting with some cultural elements / heritage related elements.) Once you have learnt to speak one language well and moved on to a second, the third, fourth, fifth add on easier and easier. By exposing children to different languages will also teach them different underlying grammatical structures, which makes finding links to other languages easier and easier. Exactly what Caroline was saying about knowing Norwegian, learning Swedish and finding the link with Danish. (she already had the sound structures and enough variety in grammatical foundations to make links and jump from one to another)
  

It is in my opinion not a very strong argument to consider citizenship or PR in an English speaking country a reason for not learning other languages. Who says your children won't want to move elsewhere in their futures ? What happens if your circumstances change and you are forced to live elsewhere ?

My question to ppl who are not teaching their children Afrikaans is :

What is your child GAINING from not learning Afrikaans ?

Love

Seoul Sisiter

[serileen]

My friend you never disappoint

Hubby and I just discussed it last night , he and my daughter is very eager to learn the French language , he was saying to her that our circumstances might change then another language will be an advantage.

We are introducing Afrikaans to the 3year old and it sounds skeef en krom , but she is getting there.As you say it is part of our identity.

[Guest Seoul Sister]

Hi there,

*Not sure if you were talking to me, so just in case you were, thanks for the compliment *

French, what a fab idea ! Best place ever to learn french is with the Alliance Francaise. It is a worldwide organization which teaches ppl French and promotes French culture... I was with them for 2 years in South Africa, we had French wine evenings (I obviously drank too much and didn't listen to the actual lesson, ) celebrated all of the French Holidays, learnt about the customs, and had a party once a year at the French Embassy. They are wonderful and it doesn't matter whether you are BRAND new or have lived in France for years, they cater for all levels. Loads of ppl in SA said, French, what on earth for, and when we lived in Holland and visited Belgium sometimes, I was SO glad that I could understand some French.

Nothing learnt is ever wasted !

Good for you on the afrikaans introduction, krom en skeef is all good. You will not believe what they can learn within 6 weeks. Trust me, before you know it, it is fluent.

Love from here

Your Seoul Sister

http://afgoldcoast.org/

Edited February 23, 2006 by Seoul Sister

[Caroline]

I have just decided that I want to learn French..... as long as it involves wine-I'm happy

[serileen]

Yes I was referring to you , you're welcome

Will check if we have it in Mackay , you know I am in a dorpie.

[Guest Seoul Sister]

Hehehehe.

LOL - Caroline - There are cheaper ways of having wine, chom... Where you don't have to concentrate or look intelligent. If you and I lived closer together, we could start our own wine club. Where you will only be required to know two things :

1. How to open a bottle of wine

2. How to finish a bottle of wine

See, now if you became a Chanook, this would not be so hard to organize. Bi-annual wine enjoyment meetings. Has a nice ring to it.

Bonjour serileen,

I know they have an office in Brisbane, but not too sure about MacKay. Sometimes you also get ppl advertising that they provide language lessons (like in the classifieds of local newspapers and stuff) but I can really recommend AF - not just for the wine !! That was an unexpected BONUS !

Love

Seoul Sister

[chatterbug]

Hi All,

Thanks for the considered replies to this topic. Caroline I really appreciated your contribution, since it allowed me to see a different angle on all of this. Seoul Sister thanks too for the professional/academic inputs, I'm sure this would help many others too.

Are there any others with different opinions?

I also asked a question, somewhere in there, that relates to resources to teach kids in Australia Afrikaans i.e. classes, tuition, web based, etc etc. So for those who do actively teach kids Afrikaans in Australia - how do you go about it?

Regards

Chatterbug

[Kalahari1]

Die skool het aanbeveel dat ons Afrikaans as huistaal moet gebruik. Ons kuier ook gereeld met Afikaans sprekende vriende. By die werk praat ek ook soms Afrikaans. Daar is selfs Ausies by die kinders se skool wat wil Afrikaans leer, want daar is 'n hele paar Afrikaans sprekende kinders en hulle wil graag saamgesels. Ons moet maar aanvaar dat die kinders (veral die jongeres) later sal verleer om die taal te lees en skryf. (meeste van hulle kon in elk geval nie behoorlik Afrikaans spel nie, veral toe SMS-taal ingekom het.

[NZHigh]

When children are exposed to many languages from an early age, they not only hear the sounds and learn some of the meanings, they often also learn a general attitude toward foreign cultures and languages, which is invaluable in our global society

So true. I am no learned expert in this field but can speak from personal experience and of course by observing others.

My kids have English as their obvious first language, they can speak Afrikaans near fluent for their age group, but have also learnt to read and even write it albeit with a few spelling mistakes.

Being in New Zealand where Maori culture plays an important role they are also learning the basics of the language and are getting quite good at it. I also hope to get them enrolled in a basic Mandarin course within a year or so.

Speaking of our global society. Our closest neighbours include Australians, South Africans, Pacific Islanders (Samoan), Yugoslavians, Brits, Korean, Chinese and even Maori and European Kiwis. It gets more multicultural as one moves down the street. It's the same at work. It's great!

[Guest Seoul Sister]

Hi NZHigh,

Very nice to see you again. Your kids are very fortunate to grow up with such FANTASTIC diversity and exposure to cultures and languages. With Koreans in your neighbourhood the school must be of OUTSTANDING standard. As the Koreans are known for their slightly obsessive (putting it mildly) behaviour when it comes to the best education possible/available for their children.

Your neighbourhood sound fab and Mandarin is a very good idea ! Are your Chinese neighbours (neighbours of neighbours) also Mandarin speaking ?

Love from here

Seoul Sister

[NZHigh]

I have had many dealings with Koreans in the past 4 years or so and I am highly impressed with their ethics. Yes, we are fortunate that our kids are in a very good public school. Our closest neighbours are in fact Korean and are wonderful people. All they lack would be some English speaking skills although their kids are 100% fluent.

Yes, the Chinese neighbours of neighbours do speak Mandarin but they have no kids and are not particularly chatty. Funny enough, despite all the Chinese in Auckland, it is difficult to find a private Chinese language course our area. They (the Chinese youngsters) are all here to study English and other courses and degrees, same as in Aus. I approached the school but they mentioned that there is hardly any demand at this time. French, German, Maori, English, Japanese, Korean, Thai to name a few but no Chinese. Even Afrikaans for beginners (aimed at Kiwis) is being taught privately at some College.

By the way, I did notice your 100 th posting.

[serileen]

Hi SS

Damn Girlfriend , you have reached your fisrt Centuary.If this had been a game of cricket we would be giving you a standing ovation

[Dedrei]

This is al so interesting.

Hubby and I were talking about the same thing the other day and it's good to read all the different experiences and ideas.

Seoul Sista, thanks for that informative post. Will keep this and let hubby also read it and Caroline's brilliant post.

[Guest Seoul Sister]

Hey you guys !

Right you are - 100 postings ! Oh wow, if it were cricket, I could have been the new hope for the Springboks/Proteas/Rooibossies/Cheetahs (who know what the poor team will be called next)

Hi NZHigh,

Strange about the lack of Mandarin courses, and a pity about the neighbour of neighbours not being chatty. That could have been a great solution !

Oh, I LOVE KOREANS !!!!!!! The are the best ppl. They are so hard-working, friendly, cultured, sophisticated, eager to please, intelligent, kind, respectful *this list could go on for a while so I'd better stop now*. They will steal your heart in a moment. I am glad you like your neighbours, their surname is probably Park, Lee, or Kim ? If you are interested, I can send you our little online Korean photo album, you can mail me at blondinkorea at yahoo dot com, then you can see where your neighbours are from !

Love from here

Seoul Sister

[NZHigh]

their surname is probably Park, Lee, or Kim ?

A few weeks ago this article appeared in the New Zeland Herald: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/category/story.c...jectID=10368950

(article at bottom)

Amongst all the fairly interesting New Zealand based Korean info and demographics this was included (sourced from the Korean Herald): Almost all Korean surnames are one syllable, and the five most common Kim, Lee (or Yi), Park (Pak), Choi (Choe), and Chong (Jung, Chung) - make up more than 50 per cent of Korea's population.

When you look at the numbers bear in mind that New Zealand's total population (inside NZ territory) is just over 4.1m.

Koreans come out to play

18.02.06

By Julie Middleton

Auckland's Koreans open their lives to the public this weekend, hosting an all-day party on the North Shore.

The annual Korean Day takes place today from 10.30am to 5pm at the North Shore Events Centre. Food, song, dance, competitions, martial arts, Prime Minister Helen Clark and Opposition leader Don Brash are on the programme, which aims to introduce the wider community to the culture of New Zealand's 20,000 Koreans, most of whom live on the North Shore.

Last year, more than 3000 people packed the venue and a similar number are expected this time around, says festival spokeswoman Kyung Sook Wilson, a member of organising body the Korean Society of New Zealand.

The event, the largest on the Kiwi-Korean calendar, offers the opportunity "to get people together - we are multi-cultural country and need to understand others' values and cultures", says Mrs Wilson.

But the day of cultural celebration comes as the community mourns two tragic losses. West Auckland student pilot Dae Jin Hwang, 27, died in a mid-air collision near Palmerston North on February 9. Two days later, Ok Young Oh, 49, was hit by a car as she tried to stop her dog running on to busy East Coast Rd.

The accidents shocked the close-knit community, says Mrs Wilson, who has been helping to support Mrs Oh's family. Details travelled swiftly through Korean newspapers, radio and television in Auckland, and among congregations in the Christian churches many Koreans attend.

"All the Koreans here knew," she says, "and we were so disappointed at what had happened."

Nearly 70 per cent of migrant Koreans have settled on the North Shore, where Korean language is now the second most common spoken.

This week also marks preparations for the fledgling New Zealand Korean Philharmonic's second concert, due to take place at Sky City Theatre on March 2. Twenty-three Korean players will be joined by 17 New Zealanders of non-Korean background for the concert.

Kim connection

Did you know?

* The 1991 Census recorded just 930 Koreans in New Zealand. But immigration policy changes boosted the number to more than 19,000 by the 2001 Census - just 15 had been born in Communist North Korea.

* More than half of Koreans in New Zealand are Christians, with Buddhists a small minority.

* Almost all Korean surnames are one syllable, and the five most common Kim, Lee (or Yi), Park (Pak), Choi (Choe), and Chong (Jung, Chung) - make up more than 50 per cent of Korea's population.

* Surnames are usually placed first, and women do not take their husband's name on marriage.

Source: NZ Census data, Korea Herald (www.koreaherald.co.kr).

[Guest Seoul Sister]

Hey again,

Thanks for that, VERY INTERESTING ! Our Korean friends tell us that there are 10 million ppl with the surname Kim in Korea.

Seoul Sister

[NZHigh]

So instead of making movies called Mr and Mrs Smith it would be Mr and Mrs Kim.

Yeah yeah, I know I am the only one laughing.

Nice pics.

[Guest Seoul Sister]

Hehehehehehe.

Exactly !

And jokes will probably start with :

Kim walks into a bar...

It's like the Van (der Merwe) of Korea.

Hehehehehehehe.

[LeonF]

Seoul sister

That was an interesting post and confirmed what I suspected (gut feel). You have given a nice scientific explanation.

We have discussed this often at home. We have a 7 year old ( was five when we arrived) and a 10 month old baby, born here. We speak Afrikaans at home and our seven year old speaks it well but you can see english starting to dominate at times. We have also decided to speak Afrikaans to the baby, he will pick up english from the environment anyway.

My view on the matter is, I will teach my children Afrikaans. That way I give them the choice of speaking it one day. If I did not teach them Afrikaans I have not empowered them to make that choice.

Leon

[Guest Seoul Sister]

Hi Leon,

Thanks for following the discussion *sorry it went off-topic *

Good for you !! Fabulous choice. Your kids will thank you one day for opening a door to Germanic Languages, which they may otherwise have struggled with. There was another posting later by Chatterbug, on this same issue, under this schools & education heading, which you may also find interesting. In there I also explained a few other issues on this same topic. Some ppl may tell you you are crazy or wasting your time doing this, just ignore them, it is hard work sometimes, but you are adding value to your children's lives !

Lots of love from here

Seoul Sister

[Van]

I used to have a different opinion about this, as those who know me from here and other forums will attest, but lately I have had to change my mind somewhat about it.

In SA I schooled our sons in English to help them get ready for the move to a new country and language. Maths and the sciences are very important to me and my husband and we knew that these two areas were the ones that most commonly suffer when a child has a different mother tongue from the language they are learning in. So our children became English. We lived in a small Afrikaans town, my husband is Afrikaans and our boys can read and write Afrikaans. Their friends were all Afrikaans and all of our friends, well almost all, were Afrikaans, so we weren't too concerned about them losing the language. The people we worked with came from all over the world and since I can speak several languages and always spoke a bit of this and that with the boys just to develop those neurological pathways (they also heard these languages spoken by the people who came to visit us from work) I figured they'd be pretty ok.

However now that we have been in Australia for 3 years I've decided that I don't want them to lose a valuable communication asset. I had to rethink this after my youngest son recently expressed his concern at the fact that he was having trouble following what his father & I were saying to each other. He was really upset about it and it caused me to re-evaluate. I didn't think they'd need Afrikaans but as their paternal grand parents become older they seem to revert to speaking Afrikaans more and more and even my mother, who was French-born, but who has lived in SA all of her life, has started speaking Afrikaans more now that she gets older. I think it has something to do with nostalgia and maybe that era when everyone spoke Afrikaans.

So I've since changed my mind about Afrikaans and have decided it would be good for my sons to retain it. I'm not fused about it, but recognise that is has it's uses for bridging cultural gaps and opening doors do other Germanic-based languages. Strangely enough it has also assisted the boys in learning Indonesian as there are many similarities.

I still think raising our sons in English in preparation for the move was the best thing we could have done for them as it has really helped them in school, but I suppose now the time has come to start having Afrikaans days and weeks in which they can practice.

[Guest Seoul Sister]

Hey Van,

Thanks for sharing your interesting thoughts with us ! Older people reverting back to Afrikaans has never crossed my mind, thanks for sharing your experience on that - makes sense now that I think about it. You are a liberated soul for keeping afrikaans alive for your kids. Good work ! (I sound like some Afrikaans fascist maniac car-bomb extremist , hehehehe, all the while I was an English major at Varsity)

Love from here

SS

[NZHigh]

Another consideration: A very good friend (Afrikaans native) of ours suffered light stroke 18 months ago (he did recover 100% ), but despite living in New Zealand for over 5 years at the time, while in hospital he was unable to comprehend anything in English, only Afrikaans. Good on him for maintaining the Afrikaans link with his kids otherwise he would not have been able to communicate with them for the days that he was out of English. (His wife had to translate everything the doctors and nurses needed to know or say).

Or, one day when we grow too old to look after ourselves and we end up in retirement homes etc. Well put it like this. Another friend of ours used to work for Age Concern here in New Zealand and noticed that the very old and frail (often senile) tend to revert back to their native languages (Dutch, German, French), despite a lifetime and a half in NZ. The Dutch in particularly lose their native very quickly and these elderly cannot even communicate with their oen family. That is extremely sad. My friend, who can speak Afrikaans would do the translation.

Finally, my daughter is English, always was, but I teach her (with very little effort) to not only speak Afrikaans (which she does fluently - Mum is Afrikaans), but also to read and write it, in addition to the little Maori she is picking up.